In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[anika99]

She is a good mother - that is not in question. Yes, I’ve given details about behavior that I have witnessed that illustrates the toxic nature of the relationship between her and MM- she is manipulative and creates a crisis every time she wants attention. He enables the behavior and thus reinforces- it’s not healthy by or for either of them.

 

Yes- he loves his job and prioritizes it for various reasons... when he is traveling he drops everything to make sure he video chats with his son for a pre-arranged time twice a day, and when he is home he spends several hours a day with him as well as full weekends. His son adores him.

 

Cheating he is guilty of - being a neglectful parent he is not.

 

Um, by your own words on this thread, he works 16 hour days and is away from home 250 nights a year. Sounds to me like his wife has to create a crisis to get any attention from him at all. It's not possible for anyone who travels that much and works that many hours to be a great parent. Of course his son adores him. He loves his dad and isn't old enough yet to realize he is being cheated. When I was little I had a grandparent that I adored. When she came to visit me she would shower me with attention and love. I was very fond of her but she was a visitor in my life, not a parent.

 

This MM has essentially emotionally abandoned his family. He's away from home more than 2/3 of the year and now he is cheating on his wife and gaslighting her to keep her in the dark. He's plotting with you behind her back the best way to ditch her so that he benefits the most, yet you call her manipulative and abusive. I don't think she's manipulative, I think she is reacting to the dismissive and manipulative way her husband treats her and her child.

 

You have this MM so high on a pedestal that you can't be objective. You also are trying to manipulate this situation to get the outcome you want.

[Amethyst68]

What makes you so certain he'd take care of you in a health crisis, he certainly doesn't seem to do so with his wife!

[heartwhole2]

I'll be honest, I didn't realize you were a mother when I was first responding. I mentioned how MM think that their affairs have no effect on their home life. I can't tell you how many times I've read an OW explaining that her MM is basically the best father in the world who goes above and beyond in what he does for the kids but still the horrible wife doesn't appreciate him. But it's a fallacy to think that spending time, money, and energy on a secret love affair doesn't take away from your other relationships. You can't make up for what you do in the dark by taking your kid on an outing.

 

That goes for you too. You have a child's well-being to worry about. Your child has recently had his parents divorce, and while I understand that this is not the topic of this post, you come across as hardly concerned about or focused on him. You're banging your head against a wall in frustration about your MM's lack of self-awareness, but this seems to again be a situation where you are frustrated at someone else doing what you are also doing.

 

So where we stand now, he's saying he won't leave and he's pulling away, right? I at least give him points for that. Many MM would simply add more excuses or offer another far-off date as the deadline. The honorable thing is to take him at his word and to put boundaries in place. Don't communicate about work on your secret app . . . use work email. Do what you can to stop traveling together.

 

When you pull away, he may very well chase you . . . but I mean chase you to keep the affair going, not chase you to be together out in the open. You will need to be prepared to see that for what it is . . . a reflex, not a conscious choice to make you his future.

 

You've admitted to being manipulative, and I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't thought of ways to expose the affair to his wife. I'm fairly certain my husband's OW face-timed him "accidentally on purpose" when she knew we'd be together to bring things to a head. She was tired of waiting, and she believed like so many that the issue was he simply lacked the courage he needed to be honest with his wife. If you have been thinking along these lines, I hope you will be honest with yourself.

[DKT3]

The only place any of this makes sense is in your head.

 

You clearly expected him to leave his marriage "for you " why cant you admit that?

 

This guy is clearly not a great father, if he were you wouldn't even be in the picture. You refuse to see that.

 

Lastly and more importantly to your situation, this guy isnt going to leave his wife, not because of his son but because it's where he wants to be.

 

In my personal life, I live for my children. The thought of not having them with me makes me physically sick. And guess what I did? I divorced my wife, I did so because I was all the things your MM claimed to be in my marriage. I took my clothes and left. I didn't fight over money, property, anything. Oh and there was no star crossed love of my life soulmate waiting.

 

I asked why are you posting because you are unwilling to allow anything to get in the way. If something doesn't fit, you simply change the narrative and adjust your story.

 

Unfortunately you are at the start of a long road of heartbreak and disappointment with full side shields on.

[Jhm42]

Good questions all...

 

Getting manipulative was my mistake and I would certainly not do it that way again... it was based on fear and I don’t like to operate that way. Straightforward communication serves me far better and that is what I have used before and since.

 

Regarding the caretaker questions - one can never know with complete certainty but I am confident that if we were in a committed relationship he would take care of me in whatever way he needed to... he wouldn’t enjoy giving up his freedom and the care would not necessarily be him around 100/% of the time - but he would make sure I was taken care of and he would be around as much as he could - which potentially might be all the time... it’s just hard to say in that hypothetical because if I had any say in the matter I would tell him to still go unless things were really dire.

 

But he’s not doing that with his wife, and he wasn’t even before your affair. She’s clearly not in a good place, she’s asking for his attention, and he’s making the choice to be away from home two thirds of the year. I mean, look at the two options here: either he leaves or he stays. Presumably he’s planning on continuing with his job regardless. If he stays, he keeps up with this dysfunctional dynamic in the name of not rocking the boat. That’s neither kind nor selfless. If he leaves, he’s predicting she’ll have a meltdown and be unable to care for their child. And he’s going to be... on another continent for weeks on end? Leaving his child with the grandparents? Also not a great move. If he really took his responsibilities seriously, he’d cut back on the travel for a while to stabilize his family, whether that looks like an improved relationship or a less disastrous divorce. But that would require him to give up something he values. Instead he gets points for kindness by planning outings for friends. That’s superficial compared to the deep unkindness he’s inflicting on his family.

 

To be clear, I don’t blame you for being manipulative. I think he’s probably hard to approach about anything that requires real courage from him. His choices say at least as much about his character as they do about his marriage, and what they say is that this is a man who avoids the discomfort that comes with making difficult decisions. Then he feels bad about his avoidance, so he does superficially nice things for other people to feel better. And buries himself in his work.

 

Again, I could be wrong. I’m just going on your words here. But think about the really good men you know, even if they’re not people you’d want to date. Think about what they would do in his situation. How does he measure up?

Edited June 3, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[finna]

How can you work on one of your cars? You say you have to fly out to meet him and then you say the trips are in another country/continent to justify him not going home at weekends to visit his son. Your posts are full of inconsistencies, more of them appearing with each justification of both your behaviours.

 

It’s not that big of a mystery. We live in different countries but have business in my city as well as a city about five hours away from him. When we are in the city near him he does go home on weekends, and has his car during the week. My city is too far for him to fly home but we have access to my car. Other trips are global for both of us.

[pepperbird]

Yes- he loves his job and prioritizes it for various reasons... when he is traveling he drops everything to make sure he video chats with his son for a pre-arranged time twice a day, and when he is home he spends several hours a day with him as well as full weekends. His son adores him.

 

 

 

Just ask my brothers kids how much his video chats with them went towards making up for all the time he missed.

It didn't.

[heartwhole2]

I don't want to make this too much about me, but I can speak to the whole sick wife/caretaker thing.

 

When we got married I was a very independent and low-maintenance person. Then after we had kids I got really sick, one of these nebulous things that many doctors write off as anxiety. I only had a quarter of the energy I used to have and would often be too sick to take the kids to school or even get up off the couch.

 

I was blindsided and scared and my natural response was just to try harder. My husband saw me doing this and he thought, "Yeah, why aren't you trying harder?" He felt I was to blame for my own disability. He believed I was withdrawing from life voluntarily. I would tell him that I didn't feel well enough to do something we had planned to do and he would glare at me with such frustration and impatience. So I tried harder. But I also developed anxiety around falling ill when I needed to be somewhere because it wasn't safe for me to do so. That made the vicious cycle grow even worse. Push, crash, push, crash.

 

I did not marry a natural caretaker. And that was fine when we got married because we were well suited in that regard. But things changed. It took having an affair and being told by our MC that he was "self-absorbed and low on empathy" for him to get into IC and work to change. It took years of practice and growth for my husband to learn how to love and care when it wasn't easy.

 

So, no, I don't think your MM is going to treat you any differently than he treats his wife if you fall ill. He will think it is your fault, just like he thinks it's hers. He will contribute to vicious cycles because he's not a healthy person. That's why he's doing all the things he's doing to begin with.

 

So what if she's a little over the top? A little too needy? A little manipulative? What if he were understanding of how hard her life is? What if he gave her the benefit of the doubt? What if he supported her in her struggles? What would their marriage look like then? An unhealthy person thinks it's their circumstances which are making them unhappy. A healthy person realizes that circumstances cannot take away our joy, which is found in loving others and being the person we want to be.

[pepperbird]

Where I live divorce often takes less than 30 days, start to finish. For the ex and I it took less than a week. No- we did not expect that everything would immediately gel and be smooth - far from it. But having a list of dreams to accomplish over the next few years did not seem particularly unrealistic.

 

 

Here, if your married man divorced his wife, the courts would never, ever grant him any sort of custody because he has clearly prioritized himself and his want/needs over that of his son.

 

No one "has" to be away that much. He does it because he values himself more than his son.

 

 

 

You also mentioned he wants to wait until she finishes school before bringing up divorce, and one of your reasons? So he has to pay her less alimony/spousal support. As you put it in your first post "Two months ago he told me he had made his decision and would file for divorce in June when his wife was done with school as she would have a job waiting for her and could be more independent / less alimony etc.".

 

 

Whatever you think of his wife,what does it say about him that he would treat her this way? What does it say about how much he values his son? What affects her affects him, and his big goal is to try and weasel out of alimony?

 

 

What a prince:laugh:

[finna]

I really do appreciate your concern. I have my son 50% of the time and when I do he has 100% of my focus. My ex is a great dad and my kid is happy and well-adjusted. We made sure his life was minimally disrupted due to the divorce- both my ex and I still live on the property so my kid still sleeps in his same bed, same room, etc. He loves having individual attention from mom and dad, and we still do things together as a family unit.

 

Regarding exposing the affair - that’s a “hell no” for me. For one thing, it’s MM’s responsibility to have that discussion although I doubt he ever will. For another, I have no illusions that it would improve anything for me- I suspect they would retreat deeper into a shared coexistence that would be even more miserable than what exists now.

 

As far as being manipulative in general - that is not me... when I got scared about the travel restrictions I put more pressure on MM to legitimize our relationship sooner than later and tried to be strategic about it... so yes, that was my error.

 

 

 

 

I'll be honest, I didn't realize you were a mother when I was first responding. I mentioned how MM think that their affairs have no effect on their home life. I can't tell you how many times I've read an OW explaining that her MM is basically the best father in the world who goes above and beyond in what he does for the kids but still the horrible wife doesn't appreciate him. But it's a fallacy to think that spending time, money, and energy on a secret love affair doesn't take away from your other relationships. You can't make up for what you do in the dark by taking your kid on an outing.

 

That goes for you too. You have a child's well-being to worry about. Your child has recently had his parents divorce, and while I understand that this is not the topic of this post, you come across as hardly concerned about or focused on him. You're banging your head against a wall in frustration about your MM's lack of self-awareness, but this seems to again be a situation where you are frustrated at someone else doing what you are also doing.

 

So where we stand now, he's saying he won't leave and he's pulling away, right? I at least give him points for that. Many MM would simply add more excuses or offer another far-off date as the deadline. The honorable thing is to take him at his word and to put boundaries in place. Don't communicate about work on your secret app . . . use work email. Do what you can to stop traveling together.

 

When you pull away, he may very well chase you . . . but I mean chase you to keep the affair going, not chase you to be together out in the open. You will need to be prepared to see that for what it is . . . a reflex, not a conscious choice to make you his future.

 

You've admitted to being manipulative, and I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't thought of ways to expose the affair to his wife. I'm fairly certain my husband's OW face-timed him "accidentally on purpose" when she knew we'd be together to bring things to a head. She was tired of waiting, and she believed like so many that the issue was he simply lacked the courage he needed to be honest with his wife. If you have been thinking along these lines, I hope you will be honest with yourself.

[pepperbird]

So let's review...

 

 

This is a man who is away at least 2/3 of the year. He blows into town and it's all "daddy's home" and fun and games, then he's off again.

 

This is a man who will, after his wife has likley worked her @ss of as, for all intents and purposes a single mother, to go to school and better herself, then he's going to spring "i want a divorce" on her so that he can pay less alimony?

 

 

He'd rather play with you than his own child?

 

 

 

He thinks video chatting will make up for all that lost time?

 

He lies to his wife's face over and over and over and over ad nauseum

 

 

He's got you convinced that his behvaior is because his wife is "manipulative" and "unstable"?

 

You are an intelligent woman. Why are you failing for this?

[finna]

Yes - you are very good at looking at this through a lens that portrays the situation in the most vile way possible, but I would caution that what is on the thread is not every detail of the story.

 

For what it’s worth, last year he had his family with him about a third of the time... not possible this year with wife’s school... and he was likely still working long hours but they could have dinner together, etc.

 

The alimony bit had to do with him being responsible for paying back tens of thousands of dollars if she did not finish the school program- not that he was trying to get out of supporting his son. He was very concerned that if he split before she was finished she would not be resilient enough to finish and would have no degree, no job, no confidence, etc. That was the reason I agreed to wait for him... he was trying to set her up for success and independence, even if the way he was going about it was not straightforward.

 

 

No one "has" to be away that much. He does it because he values himself more than his son.

 

You also mentioned he wants to wait until she finishes school before bringing up divorce, and one of your reasons? So he has to pay her less alimony/spousal support. As you put it in your first post "Two months ago he told me he had made his decision and would file for divorce in June when his wife was done with school as she would have a job waiting for her and could be more independent / less alimony etc.".

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote edited

[heartwhole2]

Just remember that it's easy for him to say that he will unilaterally end the marriage but he knows she will do what you have been doing when he gives reasons. She will say, "But what about this? Can't we try this?"

 

In your original post you said this:

 

Three weeks ago he called me to break things off, saying he loved me and wanted me to be in his life but he needed to focus on his family (his wife is truly mentally unstable and manipulative and he is afraid/guilty she will do something crazy as well as not be able to help care for their five year old son). At a follow up conversation he said he got stressed and scared about parts of our relationship and wanted life to be less complicated and to try to be happy with his SO in order to make his son happy and not disappoint people (he had been in unhappy situation for many years which he talked to me and another good friend a lot about before we ever got together).

 

So first he blamed it all on his wife's instability, but in a follow up conversation where I assume you picked apart his statement, he admitted that he is stressed and scared about your relationship.

 

You want to understand his reasons because you think that if you peel back enough layers of the onion, he'll find the strength to choose you. But deep down he doesn't want to choose you, so finding the right reason will not work.

 

He's not honest with himself or with you or with his wife. If she said, "But why do you want a divorce?" he would give such BS answers that she'd have him taking it back in about five minutes. That's who he is. He doesn't know how to address conflict or communicate. That's precisely why he's in this mess. The affair relationship isn't the answer to his problems. It's a symptom of them.

[BaileyB]

He was very concerned that if he split before she was finished she would not be resilient enough to finish and would have no degree, no job, no confidence, etc. He was trying to set her up for success and independence, even if the way he was going about it was not straightforward.

 

That’s very kind and considerate of him... (I’m being sarcastic)

 

Asaysno, nobody is trying to portray this in the lens that makes it look the most vile... While, it may be a love story to you, the whole situation is rather vile. We have been trying to point out the red flags because you are looking at the situation through the lens of “I have found my soul mate, he is a wonderful man and a good father, our relationship is different, our relationship is destined in the stars, etc... As we say here, you have your rose coloured glasses on... and if you chose to ignore the red flags along the way, that is entirely your decision.

 

The truth is, he is perhaps a loving but absent father, who has hurt his wife in one of the worst way a man can hurt a woman, and you are waiting for the demise of his marriage so that your “happily ever after” can begin... Try as you might, you can’t dress it up to be any different than it is...

[finna]

I quite agree with most of this and he likely would as well.

 

I’ve said this a few times but he does not blame his wife for their issues- he states that the two of them together poison each other with their harsh words and actions. He takes responsibility for his piece in it, and his message to me for a long time was that he would be happier to get off that roller coaster and find someone more compatible and a relationship where he and a partner could better meet each other’s needs.

 

Since he tends to be conflict avoidant and a “fixer” I don’t know what he would actually say to her. I do know that if I had advice to give to him that I thought he would actually take, I would tell him to go take a couple of weeks off from either of us- disconnect from work and all distractions and go ask himself the questions he has been self-admittedly been avoiding for a long time: what makes him happy, what are his dreams, etc.

 

 

 

JSo first he blamed it all on his wife's instability, but in a follow up conversation where I assume you picked apart his statement, he admitted that he is stressed and scared about your relationship.

 

You want to understand his reasons because you think that if you peel back enough layers of the onion, he'll find the strength to choose you. But deep down he doesn't want to choose you, so finding the right reason will not work.

 

He's not honest with himself or with you or with his wife. If she said, "But why do you want a divorce?" he would give such BS answers that she'd have him taking it back in about five minutes. That's who he is. He doesn't know how to address conflict or communicate. That's precisely why he's in this mess. The affair relationship isn't the answer to his problems. It's a symptom of them.

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote edited

[finna]

Yes. The reality check is the large reason why I’m here. However, I also have to make sure the comments and advice that I am taking to heart really match my situation. I’m sure it’s not special or different from many similar things, but it’s unique in my experience. I’m owning and processing as much and as fast as I can to make the best decisions I can.

 

 

That’s very kind and considerate of him... (I’m being sarcastic)

 

Asaysno, nobody is trying to portray this in the lens that makes it look the most vile... While, it may be a love story to you, the whole situation is rather vile. We have been trying to point out the red flags because you are looking at the situation through the lens of “I have found my soul mate, he is a wonderful man and a good father, our relationship is different, our relationship is destined in the stars, etc... As we say here, you have your rose coloured glasses on... and if you chose to ignore the red flags along the way, that is entirely your decision.

 

The truth is, he is perhaps a loving but absent father, who has hurt his wife in one of the worst way a man can hurt a woman, and you are waiting for the demise of his marriage so that your “happily ever after” can begin... Try as you might, you can’t dress it up to be any different than it is...

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Hi OP, just stopping by. You sure are getting challenged and being given lots of food for thought.

 

One thing I'm adding, because it is a common trap, is focusing on how his BW is giving him the short end of the stick.

 

1) Since he's the one cheating, he is really the one giving the short end of the stick in their marriage.

 

2) You seeing him as her victim will result in your misplaced sympathy, which will keep you in rescuer mode. That is detrimental to your own recovery. I confirmed my xMM's BS isn't the nicest lady on the planet, but that doesn't justify his choice to passively agressively deceive her while he gets his extra. xMM is not a little lamb that needs our protective mothering from big bad wife.

 

3) No matter how "bad" (manipulative, etc) she may or may not be, he chooses that over leaving. He has his own reasons for this choice, most of which he probably has not shared with you.

 

To punctuate point 3, here's a short story. My mother, whom I know to be very manipulative and selfish, concocted a scheme that was super harmful to my younger brother. Basically she was jacking up his whole life for a little money. This troubled me greatly so I discussed it with my therapist. My therapist responded, "Your brother is getting what he wants out of it or her wouldn't participate." I could have argued that he could not foresee the harm her behavior was causing him, but he wouldn't have accepted it at the time anyway. He was quite cozy and complacent with my mother's arrangement despite not recognizing the long term harm then. And so it is with your MM...he's getting what he wants out of his marriage despite the costs involved. He has done his cost/benefit analysis, the result of which he determined is better to stay. He is not a victim of his own choice. He could leave anytime, but he has chosen not to. Now you choose if you want to be cast aside and marginalized -OR- stand up for yourself and refuse to accept this position. He has made it clear (through actions) that he is offering you nothing more.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[heartwhole2]

what makes him happy, what are his dreams, etc.

 

We look to people and circumstances outside of ourselves to make us happy, but I assure you that he is unhappy because he keeps perpetuating unhealthy cycles. The first order of business for both of you is to get healthy, and that cannot happen while you are making unhealthy choices.

 

Once you are a healthy person, dealing with an unhappy marriage or an unhappy job situation comes organically.

[finna]

We look to people and circumstances outside of ourselves to make us happy, but I assure you that he is unhappy because he keeps perpetuating unhealthy cycles. The first order of business for both of you is to get healthy, and that cannot happen while you are making unhealthy choices.

 

Once you are a healthy person, dealing with an unhappy marriage or an unhappy job situation comes organically.

 

I totally agree. He and I had a discussion the other night about being able to make people happy, and I’ve told him many times you can’t (he disagrees). You can only do the best you can and how they respond is up to them. Likewise how we behave/respond is inherent to our own happiness - not the people or circumstances themselves. For anyone who is interested in this concept, read Victor Frankl’s book “Man’s Search for Meaning” - powerful stuff.

[finna]

I don’t see him as her victim - I see them as being toxic to each other.

 

I totally agree that MM should either fully commit to his marriage including being honest about everything with his wife, or end the situation. I’m sure there are things that he is not telling me. I also think he is not going to be in a healthy place for himself until he really thinks about life and what he wants... and the answer may be right where he is... but also tells he is a coward when it comes to making decisions and being introspective... says it makes him do whatever feels easiest in terms of conflict, etc.

 

 

Hi OP, just stopping by. You sure are getting challenged and being given lots of food for thought.

 

One thing I'm adding, because it is a common trap, is focusing on how his BW is giving him the short end of the stick.

 

1) Since he's the one cheating, he is really the one giving the short end of the stick in their marriage.

 

2) You seeing him as her victim will result in your misplaced sympathy, which will keep you in rescuer mode. That is detrimental to your own recovery. I confirmed my xMM's BS isn't the nicest lady on the planet, but that doesn't justify his choice to passively agressively deceive her while he gets his extra. xMM is not a little lamb that needs our protective mothering from big bad wife.

 

3) No matter how "bad" (manipulative, etc) she may or may not be, he chooses that over leaving. He has his own reasons for this choice, most of which he probably has not shared with you.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[DKT3]

One last question then I will exit stage right on your thread...why do you see it as cowardice that he wont leave? I dont believe it is at all. I believe he is doing exactly what he wants. Really it's kinda bold. He is clearly lying to you, and you buy every ounce. He is misleading deceiving and likely gaslighting his wife and risking his marriage (one that he wants) to spend time with you. Nothing cowardly about that, not really.

 

It's all part of you believing his words (sometimes) over his actions...

 

Good luck to you,

[finna]

I don’t - those were his words, not mine.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[S2B]

Any man that avoids conflict is not likely going to ask for a divorce. They’d rather cheat and not get caught.

[finna]

Any man that avoids conflict is not likely going to ask for a divorce. They’d rather cheat and not get caught.

 

What do you think that type of person does if/when they do get caught?

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I don’t see him as her victim - I see them as being toxic to each other.

 

I totally agree that MM should either fully commit to his marriage including being honest about everything with his wife, or end the situation. I’m sure there are things that he is not telling me. I also think he is not going to be in a healthy place for himself until he really thinks about life and what he wants... and the answer may be right where he is... but also tells he is a coward when it comes to making decisions and being introspective... says it makes him do whatever feels easiest in terms of conflict, etc.

 

I may exaggerate to emphasize a point here and there. However, you are defending him and demonizing his wife a bit. It's totally normal for OW to do this. I did it plenty. (It was unkind.) Most importantly, my point was that you should shift your perspective from protecting/defending him to protecting yourself.

 

Also you may have noticed common adjectives across countless threads for OM include coward, passive aggressive, conflict avoidant...in many ways these are synonymous with manipulation. Those who avoid direct conflict resort to covert ways to achieve their means. Everyone has needs. Some people are afraid to directly get them met. Man's Search for Meaning...great book. Hey, you will find another man who rings all your bells more than MM. When you're ready, he will show up.