In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[PhoenixRising8]

Thanks HadMe :-) And I'm only a month out. Hindsight often is 20/20 though, isn't it?

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Thanks HadMe :-) And I'm only a month out. Hindsight often is 20/20 though, isn't it?

 

You are doing AH-MAZ-ING for only one month out!

[finna]

Thanks Kat - I’ve read through most of your thread and definitely see the similarities... and I appreciate all your thoughts on the matter. Right now I feel like we are doing a dance - texting memes and such that definitely aren’t platonic but not referring to our own intimacy, him checking on me but not discussing anything to do with us. I haven’t pushed the issue in the last couple of days because I don’t want to discuss this over text... I will see him tomorrow morning but it may be the weekend before we really have the time for a discussion. I’m keeping in mind what everyone is telling me and working to formulate what I will say when the time comes.

 

 

 

To quote heartwhole2 - “He's not honest with himself or with you or with his wife. If she said, "But why do you want a divorce?" he would give such BS answers that she'd have him taking it back in about five minutes. That's who he is. He doesn't know how to address conflict or communicate. That's precisely why he's in this mess. The affair relationship isn't the answer to his problems. It's a symptom of them.” My edit - it's a symptom you will see in technicolor if you end up with him.

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[pepperbird]

op,you're doing what intelligent and compassionate people have done since time immemorial.

 

 

 

You love this guy, You want to see him in the best light you can., but your words aren't describing an equal relationship. You want to fix him, to save him, to rescue him from his unhappy marriage.

 

 

Now I know you may be thinking " that's not what I'm doing", but really, it is.

 

He's not a child. He shouldn't need you to be there to end his marriage. You ended yours, and from what you say, you feel you made the right choice. You didn't need "him" to do this. Hard and sad as it may have been you did it. You didn't make excuses, you didn't blame anyone else. You took the situation and made the best you could from it and worked with your ex to create a loving two family parenting system for your children.

 

That's the way adults handle this sort of situation.

[pepperbird]

THIS Same with my xMM. Often said he didn't have the courage to do what he would like to do... except he had the courage to make 2 women miserable because it was easier FOR HIM. And now that I have walked away, he goes back to his life, unscathed, as though I never existed. Cowardice to do right by him - NO. Cowardice to do right by other people? ABSOLUTELY!

 

 

 

 

That's what a child does. He's hurt two women, but if asked, he'd likely spin it into some sort of self pity ploy. "she broke up with me, now I'm all alone with a wife who doesn't understand me":rolleyes:

 

I just don't get it, Why do women put up with behavior from a married man that they might never put up with if he were single? These women are intelligent, accomplished and often incredibly caring and compassionate, yet they still fall for this. It's as if it turns them into someone different than who they really are.

[finna]

I don’t disagree. In some ways especially during the early part of the relationship it felt like we rescued each other - the while providing something that is missing bit. The problem for me is he still provides a lot of what I’ve been missing so it’s hard to think about detaching and missing all that again.

 

 

 

He's not a child. He shouldn't need you to be there to end his marriage. You ended yours, and from what you say, you feel you made the right choice. You didn't need "him" to do this. Hard and sad as it may have been you did it. You didn't make excuses, you didn't blame anyone else. You took the situation and made the best you could from it and worked with your ex to create a loving two family parenting system for your children.

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[BaileyB]

I just don't get it, Why do women put up with behavior from a married man that they might never put up with if he were single? These women are intelligent, accomplished and often incredibly caring and compassionate, yet they still fall for this. It's as if it turns them into someone different than who they really are.

 

I often wonder that myself. All I can surmise is - hormones are a wonderful thing and human psychology is an art, not a science. Articulate, intelligent, accomplished women lose all sense of reason sometimes - not only in an affair - when a man tells them they are special and they love them...

[heartwhole2]

What do you think that type of person does if/when they do get caught?

 

I can answer this one. He does as little as necessary to secure the marriage, and if he can do that and still continue the affair, he probably will. This almost always involves throwing the OW under the bus, which helps secure the marriage, at least until the affair can go further underground. Basically, he will maintain the status quo if both women allow him to.

 

I required a healthy and whole husband, or else I'd have none at all. But many BW internalize blame for the affair or rationalize that "at least he's being more attentive and helpful now." True character change is like training for a marathon. It's not easy and it requires commitment and follow-through. A conflict avoidant man who has blown up his life will not seek to change unless he knows it's that or lose big.

 

Having an affair is a really unfortunate way to try to voice your frustrations with a marriage. It's abusive to take away your partner's autonomy and right to say whether she will sleep with someone sleeping with someone else. It's traumatic to discover that your life partner has betrayed and deceived you, and furthermore has blamed you for it. So most conflict-avoidant men, no matter how many legitimate gripes they had before the affair, will now be at a loss as to how to deal with the fall-out. The OW is thinking, "But you were so unhappy! This is your chance!" But the MM is at home dealing with a devastated wife who is absolutely justified in her grief, and everyone they know and love now thinks he's scum. He has to try to get that train back on the tracks. After all, he never really meant to get it off track, not really.

 

All it will take is discovery and you'll get a NC letter and he'll find a different job. He'll maybe even out your affair to management. You are 5,000 miles away, so it will not be hard to cut you out of his life. My husband's OW was long distance too. I asked him to do more than to ghost her, for her sake. It seemed wrong to leave someone hanging like that, no matter how wrong their relationship was. I don't do the wrong thing just because other people do. So Mr. Conflict Avoidant composed two versions of a message to send her. The "long" one said: "Do not wait for me. It turns out my wife is wonderful [oh THANK YOU] and my thinking was clouded and misguided. I'm sorry that I encouraged your hopes and fantasies. I hope you can find someone who does not have such untenable circumstances." The short one said, "This is really goodbye. I have hurt my wife and family, and I am sorry." This was in the first month after DDay and I was like, FFS this is all you could come up with? So he never sent anything because I didn't make him, until many months later when he finally read How to Help Your Spouse Heal After an Affair and realized it was an important step. I'm sure at that point she was like, why on earth are you sending me this now? But I digress.

 

With my health problems, I have a lot of free time. I've read this story over and over again. For you, it's your real life, not a story or an anecdote for someone else to share as an example. But if you spend time reading, you'll realize that this is a tale as old as time, played out over and over again by different actors, and the results are pretty predictable. We are trying to save you time and heartache.

[finna]

I really appreciate the response. Thank you.

 

I can answer this one.

.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[finna]

Right now I’m not entirely sure what I want. I certainly wouldn’t want that forever.

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[finna]

I’m not sure that he will. He may completely cut things off in the next few days before we travel again. I’d say that’s probably 60/40 likely at this point but I’m no expert. Whether he would attempt to come back after that I think is dependent on his circumstances and level of guilt - and of course whatever boundaries I choose to set.

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[Turning point]

... providing something that is missing bit. The problem for me is he still provides a lot of what I’ve been missing

 

That's a self-delusion.. You were never missing anything - you simply took a very RETAIL path into this relationship.

 

Rather than do the hard work of preparing something for yourself you shopped for the already packaged goods - the man with the existing family life, all wrapped up in a shiny blister pack just waiting to be consumed.

 

Rather than see this guy for his slick marketing you prefer to buy into the colorful labeling and believe his sad sausage story of the horrible wife. It's no surprise he hasn't left her. But brace yourself, eventually SHE is going to file for divorce and you'll end up the stand-in to her present character role.

 

How horrible might you appear if you were married to a cheater?

Edited June 3, 2019 by Turning point

[finna]

Slick marketing?? That’s funny. We are both total nerdy introverts who used to be quite overweight. We both have plenty of flaws and the number of close friends each of us have is a small loyal circle - neither of us develop relationships easily. Other people would consider both of us smartasses as well as probably pain in the asses. There’s nothing slick about either one of us.

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[finna]

But brace yourself, eventually SHE is going to file for divorce and you'll end up the stand-in to her present character role.

 

How horrible might you appear if you were married to a cheater?

 

I have actually wondered about this. He has told me before that I have the evidence to have him thrown out and divorced in a matter of weeks. I’m not sure in her current state she actually would file because she is too dependent on him (that’s not a slight - she doesn’t yet have a job, etc while finishing school). She also is very in love with the idea of him I think (obviously she doesn’t know or is in denial of his full character). She suspects something is going on though and her response has been to work even harder to keep him around. I wouldn’t be surprised if she gets pregnant in the next few months to further this goal (again, not being derogatory- just observing potential behavior based on what I’ve witnessed so far).

 

I also wouldn’t be surprised though if once she starts working, gains some confidence, and meets new people, as well as matures a little if she would move on from him. At that point I wonder if he would fight to keep her as much as he has in the past when she has threatened to leave. He has said at those times he has done everything he could to fix whatever she wanted as he was afraid of being alone. Now he knows that he has the potential for options (not even necessarily me, but just that other women might be interested) so not sure how all that would play out.

[Turning point]

I also wouldn’t be surprised though if once she starts working, gains some confidence, and meets new people, as well as matures a little if she would move on from him. At that point I wonder if he would fight to keep her as much as he has in the past when she has threatened to leave. He has said at those times he has done everything he could to fix whatever she wanted as he was afraid of being alone. Now he knows that he has the potential for options (not even necessarily me, but just that other women might be interested) so not sure how all that would play out.

 

None of these things you speculate about are unknowns. Anyone on this site can tell you exactly how this story ends:

 

Chapter 1.) His wife already knows.

Chapter 2.) She'll first try to save her marriage, and it will be in vain. (We know this because her husband and you are each without sufficient empathy to make that possible.)

Chapter 3.) She prepares an exit plan, and collects evidence to her advantage.

Chapter 4.) She files for divorce, and wins a nice settlement.

Chapter 5.) MM dumps you and moves on to someone who is not tainted by this sh**show that ended his marriage. (If he has kids there is no place in his or their lives for the woman who wrecked their home.)

 

Your story sounds a lot like my ex. Work, travel, romance - and now that she's older her MM (plural) have all moved on to younger women to play with. She's had to change jobs 4 times, lost her marriage, a home, and probably any chance of not growing old alone.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[heartwhole2]

She suspects something is going on though and her response has been to work even harder to keep him around.

 

I find this very sad.

 

During my husband's affair he was cold and mean, which was out of character. When I noticed something particular, like how he didn't sit next to me and snuggle like he usually did at our best friends' house, I mentioned it and he did it the next time.

 

There was just a long list of really awful stuff. He brought me home from a colonoscopy and left me unconscious with no one to care for me, acting like I was an inconvenience. When I said I wanted to take a big trip for our 10th anniversary, he said he wanted to take a solo trip to OW's country. (I had no idea about OW; we have mutual friends there.)

 

He also started drinking too much after work and being unable to sleep. He said he was stressed out about work. I really did not know. It never entered my brain that he would have an affair. Are we supposed to get married to our best friends and then check every day to make sure they're not cheating on us? We were each other's first and only partners. I could have seen him having an EA but a PA? No way.

 

So I remember thinking, "Wow, I'm married to a real douche right now." And I so badly wanted to say, "Fine! Then I'll take a trip without you!" when he rejected me with the "I want to go to OW's country thing." But then I thought, no Heartwhole, you treat him how you want to be treated. You give him the benefit of the doubt. You keep reaching out, you keep initiating that virtuous cycle.

 

So I planned that anniversary trip. I remember him muttering something like, "Well, as long as it makes you happy," and I said, "What? It has to make you happy too! Otherwise I'd just go with someone else!" He had a funny look on his face when I said that.

 

Maybe your BW really is the Big Bad Wolf. But more likely, she's just a person with good and bad traits who is currently being denied the truth about her life. She's trying her best but the puzzle pieces don't fit together and she just cannot figure out why. I've read countless accounts by OW suggesting that BW are "hanging onto their MM" when what they are doing is trying to make the marriage that they committed to work, just like they promised to. It's not manipulation. It's carrying out a commitment. The whole point of the affair is that one spouse is not telling the other that he's stopped being committed. So her reaction to that is one of confusion. If she's being nice when he's being a jerk, then she deserves some credit. A terrible person wouldn't respond that way.

[finna]

Perhaps. I don’t think she knows at this point or he would not be permitted to spend one minute in my presence. I also wouldn’t count her out at this point for digging in and hanging on - she’s managed for over ten years so far and he may allow it to happen because it’s the easiest path (among other reasons).

 

None of these things you speculate about are unknowns. Anyone on this site can tell you exactly how this story ends:

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[finna]

I agree with you. In this case MM has not been a jerk to her (other than than the affair activities yes). In fact he had gone above and beyond to try to please her and keep her happy throughout. I don’t think it is something he will be able to maintain but he sure is trying.

 

 

I find this very sad.

 

During my husband's affair he was cold and mean, which was out of character. When I noticed something particular, like how he didn't sit next to me and snuggle like he usually did at our best friends' house, I mentioned it and he did it the next time.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Turning point]

If she's being nice when he's being a jerk, then she deserves some credit. A terrible person wouldn't respond that way.

 

Well said.

 

The villain is the cheater. "Cheater" is the correct term because cheating people, stealing - as the term is defined is exactly what is being done. It's also known by the term "gaslighting" and cheating cannot be accomplished without it.

 

There is no level of marital disappointment that justifies this crime because leaving a marriage with dignity and honor is so easy to do.

[heartwhole2]

My husband would have said he wasnÂ’t being a jerk at the time too. But since viewing her adversarially is important to being able to cheat on her, he will be impatient, annoyed, etc.

[Turning point]

. In this case MM has not been a jerk to her (other than than the affair activities yes). In fact he had gone above and beyond to try to please her and keep her happy throughout.

 

"Yes, aside from the constant lies and a knife in her back Mrs. Smith could always rely on the good graces of her dear husband."

Good grief.

[finna]

Well we will see what happens when she finishes school next week- whether he continues to try to keep her happy after she has accomplished that milestone. They have a long planned vacation afterwards into July so I imagine all that time together might be make it or break it for the relationship- or maybe not since vacation tends to distract from real life challenges.

 

If he continues to work to keep her happy and satisfied for the next few months I would say that’s the answer to where he truly wants to be for his own happiness. If not, then they may go a different path.

 

Well said.

 

The villain is the cheater. "Cheater" is the correct term because cheating people, stealing - as the term is defined is exactly what is being done. It's also known by the term "gaslighting" and cheating cannot be accomplished without it.

 

There is no level of marital disappointment that justifies this crime because leaving a marriage with dignity and honor is so easy to do.

[finna]

My husband would have said he wasnÂ’t being a jerk at the time too. But since viewing her adversarially is important to being able to cheat on her, he will be impatient, annoyed, etc.

 

It’s hard for me to say- everything I’ve witnessed (which obviously is not nearly all) has indicated that he is behaving in an understanding and supportive manner for all of her challenges... whether he actually feels understanding and supportive I don’t know... the last conversation I witnessed last week she was stressed out and attacking and calling him names and he just kept patiently apologizing and trying to help her... trying to “fix” the situation as always... something he has done long before I was ever in the picture.

[Amethyst68]

Their family situation has changed, their child is now in school and they can no longer travel with your MM. Just in time for your great 'love' affair', what a coincidence... If I was his wife we would be having hard discussions about new jobs, career changes, it's time to stay closer to home.

 

Going by what you yourself have written this man is not good to his wife, he is away from home most the year, works to avoid her, sounds emotionally distant and wants to set her up a career, which will reduce alimony. BTW every time you say you're not going to be detrimental about his wife you follow up by saying something completely detrimental about her.

 

Do you travel as much as MM?

[PhoenixRising8]

I have actually wondered about this. He has told me before that I have the evidence to have him thrown out and divorced in a matter of weeks. I’m not sure in her current state she actually would file because she is too dependent on him (that’s not a slight - she doesn’t yet have a job, etc while finishing school). She also is very in love with the idea of him I think (obviously she doesn’t know or is in denial of his full character)..........He has said at those times he has done everything he could to fix whatever she wanted as he was afraid of being alone. Now he knows that he has the potential for options (not even necessarily me, but just that other women might be interested) so not sure how all that would play out.

 

I’m sorry, but I find this post somewhat funny. Please forgive me if what I am about to say sounds harsh. Reality often is.

 

You say she is ‘in love with the idea of him”. I think the same can be said of you. Neither of you know the real him. Both of you only know that part of him that he has shown each of you. The real him is at least partially hidden from both of you. More likely, you are both denying those parts of him that don’t fit your narrative. I’d be willing to bet she is also in some way conflict avoidant. The other thing is, they are MARRIED and the basis under which they continue to remain so, you don’t actually know, whether that is some form of love, for the child, fear of being alone etc. You can only SURMISE. If the idea of being in love with him is all she has, then that’s her right as it is his right to determine if that is sufficient for his needs and apparently it is.

 

Now, this part is really IMPORTANT: He has told you that he has done everything he could to fix whatever she wanted as he was afraid of being alone, but now that he has a soft landing (you) and won’t be alone, he STILL WON’T LEAVE. You have your answer – it’s very simple. He has everything he needs with both of you, each filling gaps the other can’t and won’t change anything because it’s easier to do what he is currently doing than work on what needs to be worked on in his marriage. Typical conflict avoidant MM behaviour which both you and BS are enabling him to continue to do.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator