In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[HadMeOverABarrel]

One last question then I will exit stage right on your thread...why do you see it as cowardice that he wont leave? I dont believe it is at all. I believe he is doing exactly what he wants. Really it's kinda bold. He is clearly lying to you, and you buy every ounce. He is misleading deceiving and likely gaslighting his wife and risking his marriage (one that he wants) to spend time with you. Nothing cowardly about that, not really.

 

It's all part of you believing his words (sometimes) over his actions...

 

Good luck to you,

 

DKT3 and OP, I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. It's cowardly bc the cheater won't face either BS or OW with the truth. He does boldly mastermind and maneuver, but ultimately he is too cowardly to face any consequences for his actions. My xMM told me he was a coward on more than one occasion.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

What do you think that type of person does if/when they do get caught?

 

Runs for cover and leaves the messes for everyone else to clean up. (Damage control falls under 'runs for cover' category).

[PhoenixRising8]

DKT3 and OP, I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. It's cowardly bc the cheater won't face either BS or OW with the truth. He does boldly mastermind and maneuver, but ultimately he is too cowardly to face any consequences for his actions. My xMM told me he was a coward on more than one occasion.

 

THIS Same with my xMM. Often said he didn't have the courage to do what he would like to do... except he had the courage to make 2 women miserable because it was easier FOR HIM. And now that I have walked away, he goes back to his life, unscathed, as though I never existed. Cowardice to do right by him - NO. Cowardice to do right by other people? ABSOLUTELY!

[finna]

DKT3 and OP, I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. It's cowardly bc the cheater won't face either BS or OW with the truth. He does boldly mastermind and maneuver, but ultimately he is too cowardly to face any consequences for his actions. My xMM told me he was a coward on more than one occasion.

 

Yes there have been several occasions where I wanted him to man up and tell it straight both to me and to his wife... whatever his truth is.

 

My ex has been supportive of me throughout this situation and half jokingly asks me what would happen if MM, BS, and I sat down and talked it out like adults. I don’t think that will ever happen but in some ways it would be much easier to get everything out on the table for everyone.

[PhoenixRising8]

OP, please read my thread, if only as many pages as yours is. You will see that I did the same mental gymnastics you are now doing to rationalize something that can be explained very easily. Despite all the “plans” you made, in the cold, hard light of day, after sober second thought, he doesn’t WANT to leave. Not that he CAN’T. Too messy. Too costly. Too emotionally draining. Whatever. You are taking all the fun out of being together by actually expecting him to follow through. His first reason for not leaving sounded very plausible. His successive "reasons' will become less and less plausible and sound more like what they are - excuses. Been there, done that.

 

xMM had 2 mantras: “actions speak louder than words” (and they did, until they didn’t) and “where there is a will, there is a way” (again, there was a will until there wasn’t). By his actions, until the end, he showed he wanted to be with me, every chance he could and he was. He went so far as to tell BS he wanted to separate, then stayed because he wanted to “let her down gently, was unprepared”. As for the will, we never thought we would be able to go to a movie or spend a night together, but he made it happen, even though he had no built-in excuse like business travel. The will was there. He had the will to leave her for overnights, even though it tore her up. Even though he was rubbing an affair in her face, without actually admitting he was having an affair, even when asked directly. Similarly, he had the will to have us end, to see the “love of his life” walk away because he really didn’t HAVE THE WILL to leave his (as he put it) loveless, lifeless marriage, for whatever reason. Clearly there’s something that marriage provides (financial, extended family, friends etc.) that is of greater value than what the OW can provide. They have the will when it suits them. If it doesn’t suit them, whatever the reasons are doesn’t matter, they don’t do it because they don’t WANT to. Not because they CAN’T, because they don’t WANT to. Funny how they have the backbone to do what they want and claim lack of courage when they see they really don’t want to do what they said they did. That is exactly what your MM is showing you. He doesn’t want to leave because he has no will to leave. He has no will to leave, because he doesn’t want to leave. Too much upheaval, too many messy logistics to deal with. Easier to stay where he is and keep you on the side. I can say this with almost 100% certainty.

 

When you defend MM and believe your relationship will be different from theirs, the only person you are deluding is yourself. Towards the end, I started to see a very different person from the one I thought I knew. The open communication stopped because he was becoming uncomfortable so he did what he’s always done – retreat into himself when the going got tough. Conflict avoidant people do that because it’s easier. It doesn’t solve the problem, but it’s less discomfort that confronting the issue head on. How they behave with their BS tells you everything you need to know about what you can eventually expect when you hit a rough patch.

 

My xMM and yours have so much commonality, right down to the long work hours, the future faking, the “boo hoo, BS doesn’t understand me, doesn’t whatever … “ that I will be very surprised if one of two things doesn’t happen: 1 – some time from now, you see the truth and it ends, with a lot more pain than if it ended now or 2 – sometime down the line you’re back on this forum in the infidelity threads. You, like me, are rationalizing and so want to believe. Unlike my xMM, yours dropped you at the FIRST sign of pressure. He is sending a clear message that if you want to be with him, it is on HIS terms, and his alone. As I said, continue on your current trajectory at your own peril, as I did, discounting the advice of the kind people on this forum. Like you, I thought the same: they don’t know all the details, they don’t know us, we are different. All of this is true. What is also true is that the plot of affairs is pretty much always the same. The nuances may be different, but the basic plot is the same. Even many of the things they say. It’s like there really is a cheaters’ handbook out there. For example, I thought my xMM said something no one else had. He maintains he hasn’t slept with his BS for several years (and I mostly believe this still) but when he deferred leaving yet again, I told him I am considering dating. His response? “Well I believe in monogamy and if you start dating, there’s a good chance you wouldn’t be monogamous so I couldn’t deal with that.” Can you believe it? Someone who is cheating believes in monogamy?? Oh, the irony!! I thought mine was unique. Turns out that I’m NOT the only OW who has heard this line. Think about that …

 

To quote heartwhole2 - “He's not honest with himself or with you or with his wife. If she said, "But why do you want a divorce?" he would give such BS answers that she'd have him taking it back in about five minutes. That's who he is. He doesn't know how to address conflict or communicate. That's precisely why he's in this mess. The affair relationship isn't the answer to his problems. It's a symptom of them.” My edit - it's a symptom you will see in technicolor if you end up with him.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Yes there have been several occasions where I wanted him to man up and tell it straight both to me and to his wife... whatever his truth is.

 

My ex has been supportive of me throughout this situation and half jokingly asks me what would happen if MM, BS, and I sat down and talked it out like adults. I don’t think that will ever happen but in some ways it would be much easier to get everything out on the table for everyone.

 

It is NEVER advantageous for MM to do this...thus it will never happen. Bringing everything into the open is the last thing he wants. One of the biggest things MM get out of affairs is control. They are the only ones who know the whole truth of the situation. That puts MM in the drivers seat, cat bird position, two lives (sometimes more) who are willing to please and impress to keep their 'positions' at the end of his strings. This powerful feeling is intoxicating even for those who would otherwise be benign in their daily lives.

[BaileyB]

What do you think that type of person does if/when they do get caught?

 

If you read these boards long enough you will see that they usually beg for forgiveness from their wives. Sometimes, they throw the other woman under the bus. More often than not, they end all contact with the other woman (although this may be a temporary thing as many will initiate contact again when the coast is clear and things go back to normal at home).

[HadMeOverABarrel]

LilKitKat, I just want to clap like a happy little seal to some of your posts. Congrats on the 20/20 vision! :bunny:

[skywriter]

My thoughts on this A are, your AP is happy with his family at home and he has you his AP to enjoy while he is off on business trips. He has the best of both worlds.

[PhoenixRising8]

Thanks HadMe :-) And I'm only a month out. Hindsight often is 20/20 though, isn't it?

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Thanks HadMe :-) And I'm only a month out. Hindsight often is 20/20 though, isn't it?

 

You are doing AH-MAZ-ING for only one month out!

[finna]

Thanks Kat - I’ve read through most of your thread and definitely see the similarities... and I appreciate all your thoughts on the matter. Right now I feel like we are doing a dance - texting memes and such that definitely aren’t platonic but not referring to our own intimacy, him checking on me but not discussing anything to do with us. I haven’t pushed the issue in the last couple of days because I don’t want to discuss this over text... I will see him tomorrow morning but it may be the weekend before we really have the time for a discussion. I’m keeping in mind what everyone is telling me and working to formulate what I will say when the time comes.

 

 

 

To quote heartwhole2 - “He's not honest with himself or with you or with his wife. If she said, "But why do you want a divorce?" he would give such BS answers that she'd have him taking it back in about five minutes. That's who he is. He doesn't know how to address conflict or communicate. That's precisely why he's in this mess. The affair relationship isn't the answer to his problems. It's a symptom of them.” My edit - it's a symptom you will see in technicolor if you end up with him.

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[pepperbird]

op,you're doing what intelligent and compassionate people have done since time immemorial.

 

 

 

You love this guy, You want to see him in the best light you can., but your words aren't describing an equal relationship. You want to fix him, to save him, to rescue him from his unhappy marriage.

 

 

Now I know you may be thinking " that's not what I'm doing", but really, it is.

 

He's not a child. He shouldn't need you to be there to end his marriage. You ended yours, and from what you say, you feel you made the right choice. You didn't need "him" to do this. Hard and sad as it may have been you did it. You didn't make excuses, you didn't blame anyone else. You took the situation and made the best you could from it and worked with your ex to create a loving two family parenting system for your children.

 

That's the way adults handle this sort of situation.

[pepperbird]

THIS Same with my xMM. Often said he didn't have the courage to do what he would like to do... except he had the courage to make 2 women miserable because it was easier FOR HIM. And now that I have walked away, he goes back to his life, unscathed, as though I never existed. Cowardice to do right by him - NO. Cowardice to do right by other people? ABSOLUTELY!

 

 

 

 

That's what a child does. He's hurt two women, but if asked, he'd likely spin it into some sort of self pity ploy. "she broke up with me, now I'm all alone with a wife who doesn't understand me":rolleyes:

 

I just don't get it, Why do women put up with behavior from a married man that they might never put up with if he were single? These women are intelligent, accomplished and often incredibly caring and compassionate, yet they still fall for this. It's as if it turns them into someone different than who they really are.

[finna]

I don’t disagree. In some ways especially during the early part of the relationship it felt like we rescued each other - the while providing something that is missing bit. The problem for me is he still provides a lot of what I’ve been missing so it’s hard to think about detaching and missing all that again.

 

 

 

He's not a child. He shouldn't need you to be there to end his marriage. You ended yours, and from what you say, you feel you made the right choice. You didn't need "him" to do this. Hard and sad as it may have been you did it. You didn't make excuses, you didn't blame anyone else. You took the situation and made the best you could from it and worked with your ex to create a loving two family parenting system for your children.

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[BaileyB]

I just don't get it, Why do women put up with behavior from a married man that they might never put up with if he were single? These women are intelligent, accomplished and often incredibly caring and compassionate, yet they still fall for this. It's as if it turns them into someone different than who they really are.

 

I often wonder that myself. All I can surmise is - hormones are a wonderful thing and human psychology is an art, not a science. Articulate, intelligent, accomplished women lose all sense of reason sometimes - not only in an affair - when a man tells them they are special and they love them...

[heartwhole2]

What do you think that type of person does if/when they do get caught?

 

I can answer this one. He does as little as necessary to secure the marriage, and if he can do that and still continue the affair, he probably will. This almost always involves throwing the OW under the bus, which helps secure the marriage, at least until the affair can go further underground. Basically, he will maintain the status quo if both women allow him to.

 

I required a healthy and whole husband, or else I'd have none at all. But many BW internalize blame for the affair or rationalize that "at least he's being more attentive and helpful now." True character change is like training for a marathon. It's not easy and it requires commitment and follow-through. A conflict avoidant man who has blown up his life will not seek to change unless he knows it's that or lose big.

 

Having an affair is a really unfortunate way to try to voice your frustrations with a marriage. It's abusive to take away your partner's autonomy and right to say whether she will sleep with someone sleeping with someone else. It's traumatic to discover that your life partner has betrayed and deceived you, and furthermore has blamed you for it. So most conflict-avoidant men, no matter how many legitimate gripes they had before the affair, will now be at a loss as to how to deal with the fall-out. The OW is thinking, "But you were so unhappy! This is your chance!" But the MM is at home dealing with a devastated wife who is absolutely justified in her grief, and everyone they know and love now thinks he's scum. He has to try to get that train back on the tracks. After all, he never really meant to get it off track, not really.

 

All it will take is discovery and you'll get a NC letter and he'll find a different job. He'll maybe even out your affair to management. You are 5,000 miles away, so it will not be hard to cut you out of his life. My husband's OW was long distance too. I asked him to do more than to ghost her, for her sake. It seemed wrong to leave someone hanging like that, no matter how wrong their relationship was. I don't do the wrong thing just because other people do. So Mr. Conflict Avoidant composed two versions of a message to send her. The "long" one said: "Do not wait for me. It turns out my wife is wonderful [oh THANK YOU] and my thinking was clouded and misguided. I'm sorry that I encouraged your hopes and fantasies. I hope you can find someone who does not have such untenable circumstances." The short one said, "This is really goodbye. I have hurt my wife and family, and I am sorry." This was in the first month after DDay and I was like, FFS this is all you could come up with? So he never sent anything because I didn't make him, until many months later when he finally read How to Help Your Spouse Heal After an Affair and realized it was an important step. I'm sure at that point she was like, why on earth are you sending me this now? But I digress.

 

With my health problems, I have a lot of free time. I've read this story over and over again. For you, it's your real life, not a story or an anecdote for someone else to share as an example. But if you spend time reading, you'll realize that this is a tale as old as time, played out over and over again by different actors, and the results are pretty predictable. We are trying to save you time and heartache.

[finna]

I really appreciate the response. Thank you.

 

I can answer this one.

.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[S2B]

What do you think that type of person does if/when they do get caught?

 

They beg and beg for their own comfort zone - meaning they beg the wife to take them back and play the role of the perfect husband for a while - until the coast is clear - then they try to make effort to get the OW back into her position... meaning serving him and having the OW sacrifice her needs!!!

 

Is that what you want for yourself?

 

 

And if you think it’s rough now - just wait until later...

Edited June 3, 2019 by S2B

[finna]

Right now I’m not entirely sure what I want. I certainly wouldn’t want that forever.

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[S2B]

He will keep it going as long as YOU allow it - or as long as his wife doesn’t find out. He’s greedy - he wants both.

 

You are helping him betray his wife by being an active participant.

 

If he intends to cheat - gather your self respect - do your job only - and let him find someone else to cheat with. He will...

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[finna]

I’m not sure that he will. He may completely cut things off in the next few days before we travel again. I’d say that’s probably 60/40 likely at this point but I’m no expert. Whether he would attempt to come back after that I think is dependent on his circumstances and level of guilt - and of course whatever boundaries I choose to set.

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[Turning point]

... providing something that is missing bit. The problem for me is he still provides a lot of what I’ve been missing

 

That's a self-delusion.. You were never missing anything - you simply took a very RETAIL path into this relationship.

 

Rather than do the hard work of preparing something for yourself you shopped for the already packaged goods - the man with the existing family life, all wrapped up in a shiny blister pack just waiting to be consumed.

 

Rather than see this guy for his slick marketing you prefer to buy into the colorful labeling and believe his sad sausage story of the horrible wife. It's no surprise he hasn't left her. But brace yourself, eventually SHE is going to file for divorce and you'll end up the stand-in to her present character role.

 

How horrible might you appear if you were married to a cheater?

Edited June 3, 2019 by Turning point

[finna]

Slick marketing?? That’s funny. We are both total nerdy introverts who used to be quite overweight. We both have plenty of flaws and the number of close friends each of us have is a small loyal circle - neither of us develop relationships easily. Other people would consider both of us smartasses as well as probably pain in the asses. There’s nothing slick about either one of us.

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[finna]

But brace yourself, eventually SHE is going to file for divorce and you'll end up the stand-in to her present character role.

 

How horrible might you appear if you were married to a cheater?

 

I have actually wondered about this. He has told me before that I have the evidence to have him thrown out and divorced in a matter of weeks. I’m not sure in her current state she actually would file because she is too dependent on him (that’s not a slight - she doesn’t yet have a job, etc while finishing school). She also is very in love with the idea of him I think (obviously she doesn’t know or is in denial of his full character). She suspects something is going on though and her response has been to work even harder to keep him around. I wouldn’t be surprised if she gets pregnant in the next few months to further this goal (again, not being derogatory- just observing potential behavior based on what I’ve witnessed so far).

 

I also wouldn’t be surprised though if once she starts working, gains some confidence, and meets new people, as well as matures a little if she would move on from him. At that point I wonder if he would fight to keep her as much as he has in the past when she has threatened to leave. He has said at those times he has done everything he could to fix whatever she wanted as he was afraid of being alone. Now he knows that he has the potential for options (not even necessarily me, but just that other women might be interested) so not sure how all that would play out.