In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[BaileyB]

If he leaves he needs to do it because he decides that would be his happiest self... not for me or anyone else.

 

It doesn’t change the fact that you are sitting on the sidelines, waiting to get called into the game... Truth be told, you are running interference in the game.

 

With respect, this is mental gymnastics. It’s what you tell yourself to make it more acceptable, to yourself and others, that you are eagerly awaiting the demise of another woman’s marriage for personal gain and profit.

[finna]

So I take it you don't have sex or spend time with him during the working week either when you're travelling for business, after all that would be a distraction. What about all that flirting and texting he does in the evenings, you know the times he's supposedly working these 16 hour days, or if he's not working then he's doing it during family time! Just admit you don't want her there there because it's eating into YOUR time with him.

 

Actually on trips we often don’t spend many waking hours together beyond what is required for business because the business piece is so consuming... when he works his long days when we are apart our time together with any texting is late at night once his kid is in bed - and he is generally still doing work projects during that time. Do I want more time with him? Of course- but a lot of this other stuff necessarily comes first.

[Timshel]

I made it clear from the beginning that supporting him in his relationships is a high priority for me and he should never hesitate to make his child his first priority.

 

Asaysno, I don't talk double speak, I think every person on this forum knows this and you are not the only person that isn't keen.

 

The fact that you don't know how messed up this statement ^^^is speaks for itself. You don't get that his marriage and relationship with his child is none of your business.

We all know that you are going to walk this crazy walk. Some of these posters have empathy for you and hope you'll have an epiphany; others, like myself think that you are not a person who is cognizant of any person's well being beyond yourself.

 

What people on a forum think about your behavior is neither here nor there, at the end of the day, you look your own self in the mirror.

 

Individual counseling would be a good idea, Asaysno, also, it wouldn't hurt if on one of your trips you take a look around at the landscape and see how you may be able help other people.

[BaileyB]

I made it clear from the beginning that supporting him in his relationships is a high priority for me and he should never hesitate to make his child his first priority.

 

If that statement was really true, you wouldn’t be inserting yourself into his marriage. That’s not supporting him in his relationships. You want to support him in his relationships - at the very least, you should be removing yourself such that he can make a decision about his marriage and the future of his family. As for his son, if you considered his well-being to be priority then you wouldn’t be attempting to drive a wedge between his parents and break up his home.

Edited June 9, 2019 by BaileyB

[heartwhole2]

I do have empathy for asaysno because she can't do right by other people until she can do right by herself. She can't bring healthy things into her life until she knows what healthy is.

 

This doesn't mean I allow unhealthy people into my inner circle. I have good boundaries. I deserve to have the kind of healthy, fulfilling, inspiring relationships that I offer to those in my life. But I can see her humanity and wish she could understand that she has built this house of cards on so many nonsense premises that a "good" outcome (her getting the MM without a DDay) would still be disastrous for her.

 

You don't figure this stuff out overnight. You've spent a lifetime not knowing what true love is, so you're not going to go, "Ah yes, now I am a resilient, confident person who lives by the Golden Rule and spots unhealthy people in an instant" after a few days of introspection. You're going to have to rebuild your foundation from the ground up.

 

And that starts in IC.

[anika99]

Right. Let's not forget that the MM is a big contributor to the OP's messed up state of mind right now. She's not making him cheat on his wife, he's got her sucked in so deep that she can't see from right from wrong at the moment. He's the true puppeteer in all of this. He shared his marital problems and did the Oh woe is me, and painted this picture of himself being this poor perfect sweet man who just wishes he could make everyone happy, that po po man.

 

I hate the way the OW dehumanizes the BW, turning them into some sort of comical sinister caricature. If the OW in heartwhole's situation knew about the lovely gift heartwhole gave to her husband on their anniversary the OW would not have felt any sadness for heartwhole or any shame for her own actions because, instead she would have made up ridiculous sinister motives behind the gift giving. It would have been oh she's just trying to manipulate him, or she's trying to make him feel guilty because he's not in love with her anymore or she's just putting on act and trying to make herself look like a loving wife to his friends and family.

 

Or how about the one where the wife gets pregnant and the OW says she got pregnant on purpose just so she could keep him trapped in the marriage. That one really cracks me up. Like she decided to get herself pregnant, go through 9 months of pregnancy and labour and night time feedings and no sleep or time for herself solely for the purpose of trapping her own husband. First of all any woman that has ever had a baby knows damn well that a baby takes all the romance out of marriage. A baby strains a relationship it doesn't save it. Not only that but it's pretty hard to be sexy when you've been up all night for several nights in a row and haven't even had time to shower. If I wanted to compete for a man the last thing I'd do is get pregnant, lol.

 

But I really think believing in these absurdities is the only way the OW can live with what she is doing. She has to belittle, vilify and dehumanize the wife in order to make things okay in her head. Unless the OP is truly psycho which I dont' think she is, she couldn't be okay with looking his wife right in the eye and playing nicey nice all the while knowing she has the sinister plan to get her husband unless she makes herself believe that the wife is somehow deserving of this terrible betrayal and backstabbing, otherwise the shame would overwhelm the OW. The MM totally plays into the OW's delusions because he wants to keep her on the side. He knows the truth but there's no way he's ever going to tell the truth to the OW because it doesn't benefit him. He enjoys being up on the pedestal the OW has placed him on and he sure isn't going to knock himself off it.

 

I truly don't see how any affair that is build on so many lies, delusions, and manipulations could ever transition into a healthy relationship. I do feel bad for you OP because when this ends badly, not only will be deeply hurt by your MM's lies and betrayal, and you are forced to face reality, not only will you be deeply hurt by the way the MM strung you along, you will also be hurt at the way you betrayed yourself, ignored your principles and tossed away your integrity, all for the sake of winning a lying cheating man. That will be harder to recover from than the affair.

[Timshel]

You are a teacher Heartwhole2 and I am more of the sword. The Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would for yourself.

[S2B]

Nope. If he leaves he needs to do it because he decides that would be his happiest self... not for me or anyone else. I have told him so many times. I also do not wish him to “leave his child”. I actively encourage him to spend as much time with his kid as possible- yes even when that means there is reduced or no time for me during that period. I made it clear from the beginning that supporting him in his relationships is a high priority for me and he should never hesitate to make his child his first priority.

 

I don’t see how you can say this. IF he was only making his child his top priority he would NEVER travel SO much!

 

And he also wouldn’t be having an affair that put his whole family at jeopardy!

 

He isn’t a good Dad and he’s not a decent husband!

 

Your rose colored glasses have skewed your evidence of who he really is.

[Timshel]

That's the worst of it Anika, that a woman would be so hateful against another woman she doesn't know, for....drum roll, an 'oh, I don't know, but sneaking around sure is exciting,' married with a child dude.

 

Heartwhole2 is right, A says no is in a bad place. Bad places attract opportunistic people. I know that nothing we say will open her mind, she is going to go through this. It's like watching a slow motion crash. She will be fine on the other end though.

A says no, you have a lot of support here, you are enough, all by yourself. Somewhere you missed that.

I'm gonna say #ASAYSNO

[BaileyB]

I see the humanity here. It breaks my heart to see a woman give her power to a man and accept so much less than she deserves. You don’t have to read many threads to discover that in many cases, something has truly gone wrong in a woman’s life if/when she finds herself in this situation. You also don’t have to read many threads to realize that it is, as some would say, a totally mind ****. How else can you explain it when an otherwise articulate, intelligent, compassionate, and responsible woman throws her good judgment out the window and believes every word a man says when his actions say the exact opposite of what she hears him say.

 

In this case, it’s clear based on what has been shared that there were some issues that made OP vulnerable to an extramarital affair. I would like to believe that she/perhaps both partners/fell into this relationship rather naively... although the reality is more likely, both partners saw an opportunity and they decided to pursue it regardless of the consequence to those they loved. Still, at a certain point it is important to accept that boundaries were crossed and purposeful decisions were made that would be hurtful to other people. This is where the fun really begins...

 

How do you justify the fact that you are sleeping with another woman’s husband - well, you both tell each other that she is a manipulative and unreasonable woman. You hold up the fact that she has previously cheated as justification despite the fact that he made the decision to take her back and reconcile the marriage. If you are the OW, you basically convince yourself that the marriage is inevitably doomed and you begin to see yourself not as the “affair partner” but as his partner - in that he may be inconveniently married to another woman but he loves and wants a relationship with the OW. In this particular case, the OW has compartmentalized so much that she states time and again that if this marriage ends it will be his decision, she places the responsibility firmly at his feet... After all, she just wants him to find happiness - hopefully with her. And while there is truth in that, the blatant opportunism makes this kind of statement very disengenuous and distasteful. What the OW conveniently denies is the fact that her very presence where she doesn’t belong means that she shares at least some responsibility for the destruction of a marriage and a family. In other words, her happiness has been found at someone else’s expense.

 

I would hope OP that you have read the words that have been shared here - the hard-earned wisdom that has been shared and that you will use this information to make better decisions for yourself moving forward.

 

As the brilliant Maya Angelou said so eloquently - “When you know better, you do better.” I hope that’s true for you.

Edited June 9, 2019 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

You are enough, all by yourself. Somewhere you missed that.

 

True.

 

The other memo you missed - if not this man, there will be another. It may seem difficult to find a man who likes to watch sports, travel, and drinks Guinness - but trust me... they are out there. And they won’t inconveniently come with a wife or make promises they can’t keep...

[heartwhole2]

If the OW in heartwhole's situation knew about the lovely gift heartwhole gave to her husband on their anniversary the OW would not have felt any sadness for heartwhole or any shame for her own actions because, instead she would have made up ridiculous sinister motives behind the gift giving.

 

She obviously knew we were away celebrating our anniversary because she sent an email titled "sneaky hello" that just said "I love you!" How fun to get to be sneaky when the poor MM is stuck with his horrid wife! Also around this time she's publicly posting, "Life is short! Break the rules!" I believe that a person who is really comfortable with what they're doing isn't going to post on public social media to justify it, but still lady. Thanks for turning my wedding anniversary into a game to get your jollies off on. Meanwhile my husband gives me a big diamond ring and then asks me not to post it on Facebook because obviously I'm the sort of person who likes to brag about receiving luxury items on Facebook . . . But yeah, knowing my husband bought me a two carat diamond ring might have given the OW more info about the real status of our relationship than my husband wanted her to have.

 

When I decided not to stab him with a fork for all his jerkhood and we went on an island getaway for five days, all he told the OW was that he wouldn't be able to be in touch. So he told me that he "didn't feel comfortable" putting that we were away from our children on Facebook for people to see, like our friend list includes a whole bunch of kidnappers just waiting for their opportunity? Again, he was curating what the OW got to see so that she would continue in the relationship under false information. After all, he's doing the same thing to his wife, the OW isn't going to be any different.

 

Of course, we don't view the MM as an actual human being capable of manipulation, so then we give him a pass because it's just because he's conflict-avoidant, which is a permanent trait that no one could ever eliminate in themselves through growth and practice. He's just "trying to make everyone happy" by not rocking the boat, because keeping two women in a relationship with him by giving them limited information is a rational and justifiable position, so what else was he gonna do? Be honest? Nah. He can't be honest, but that's the fault of the one person in the love triangle who doesn't know there's an affair. She's making him not be honest by having needs and opinions.

[heartwhole2]

I'm sure the question is why, when my husband was doing these odd things, I didn't realize he was having an affair.

 

All I can say is that it really didn't occur to me. I saw that he was engineering situations to make me look like a bad guy. It seemed to me that if I continued being my good person self, he, as a rational person, would eventually realize he was wrong. For him to suggest that I'm some sort of insecure braggart, well, I'm not obviously. I remember thinking that on some level it was a good reminder to live your life instead of plastering it all over Facebook. After DDay this caused me some "what if?" regret, because I thought, "Well what if the OW had seen the ring and the fancy couples vacation and the date nights . . . ?" But now I know that it wouldn't have mattered. She saw what she wanted to see.

 

It was such a far leap from my husband treating me like an enemy to him throwing all his morals away. Obviously I've spent a lot of time since then trying to understand how people have affairs, and I'd probably see the "tells" more quickly now. But the idea that he would go to such lengths to deceive and abuse me, all while allowing the OW to pin all her hopes and dreams on a future with him, when any rational person would realize that this would end badly . . . I just couldn't fathom it.

 

In fact, I said to my husband recently, "You put us in a position where THIS . . . years of grieving and hard work and me having to forgive a huge, giant wound . . . this was the best possible outcome. You risked our entire future and the only way we could save it was by me having to go through all of this pain and come out the other side by sheer grit. You did something unthinkable and the price was a huge amount of pain to me." When you're married and when you're a parent you don't get to stick your head in the sand and pretend that your choices don't have consequences, or that no one could predict how an affair will end. You are responsible for other people as well as yourself.

Edited June 9, 2019 by heartwhole2

[pepperbird]

It doesn't matter what mm does or didn't do. He didn't drag the OP into the affair. She went in, fully knowing what he was up to. He didn't lie to her, he never made promises she knew he couldn't keep. Sure, he may have future faked, but at some point, she chose to ignore the reality and concentrate instead on the fantasy aspect of the affair.

 

She went in, eyes wide open, and placing blame for her current situation at the feet of this married man helps no one. It puts any power to make a change in his hands.

 

If she wants to leave, she has the ability to tell him goodbye and stick to it. She sticks around because she wants to, not because he's making her. She can't blame him for her decisions.

 

To the op's credit, she hasn't done that very much.

[heartwhole2]

She's based the whole affair relationship on the notion that he's a good person acting rationally in a bad marriage. I don't think her eyes are wide open at this time.

 

The truth is that MM is having an affair for no reason other than that it feels good. He's not justified in doing so. He's not solving any personal problems, he's creating them. He's not broadcasting future intentions for a monogamous relationship with asaysno by enjoying a secret affair with her.

 

But yes, she is a free agent who has put herself in this position. Even if it was completely true that their marriage is terrible and BW is awful and they'd all be happier not married and saintly MM would be with asaysno today if he weren't such a noble martyr, that still doesn't make her decision to have an affair with him ethical or healthy or rational. If your decision making calculus involves a lot of "Well normally this wouldn't be OK but in this case because X then I can kind of justify Y and so therefore Z isn't so bad . . ." that's a bad sign.

[anika99]

I don't think anyone is blaming the MM for the position the OW is in, I think people just want to explain how it is that an affair partner can get so out of touch with reality. Also the OW can't be solely blamed for the position the BS is in. Sure she owns a part of that but most of the outrage over the betrayal of the spouse should be directed at the cheater, not the AP.

 

You're right heart whole, it wouldn't have mattered if the OW in your situation knew about gifts or vacations because your husband would have just spun some far fetched tale to her so that she would excuse it. It would have been something like "I didn't buy her a diamond ring! I just gave her the credit card and told her to go buy herself a gift. I didn't know she was going to buy THAT" Not only would have the OW believed him, it also would have justified the affair even more, at least in her mind. To her you would be a greedy materialistic wife who is obviously just holding onto her husband for the money. Vacations are easily explained away too. Remember when LKK's MM went to Hawaii with his wife. He told LKK that he was going so that his wife would realize how broken their marriage is and let him go. Like WTF? To LKK's credit, she didn't really believe him, but it did make her hold on that much longer just in case there was some truth to it.

 

OP I think what people are trying to impress on you is that it's so easy for the MM to get you to believe what he wants you to believe. You think you know so much about his marriage but you know nothing about their marriage. The only people who know the truth of the marriage is the husband and wife and even they have different perspectives. You don't even live in the same city as them. I noticed in the beginning of the thread that you said that you have witnessed her being abusive to her husband. Not sure if you saw that in person or just saw her text messages or something but it doesn't matter. It would be so easy for him to subtly push her buttons or start an argument so that when she reacts she looks like the bad guy. Conflict avoidant men are especially good at this with their passive aggressive behaviour.

[Starswillshine]

Heartwhole, you reminded me of things my xWH did when social media started to come into play. He constantly would ask me if I had everything on lock down. That everything was super private. Made sure constantly that I wasnt accepting anyone I didnt know extremely well. He always used our kids as his concern, but now I am realizing it was so none of his women could see anything of ours. Especially because someone, he told he was divorced.

 

And his OW (the one I have communicated with and know her name), used to post all sorts of the same things about rules being meant to be broken. In our conversations it was very clear there was a lot of triangulation going on and there was a lot of competition against me. She had it in my mind I was a materialistic dimwit, trophy wife and we had zero in common. It was quite humorous to hear her tell me about my husband. As if I just didnt know him like she sis. I dont blame her for having this view, it was in all the ways he made our life to be. What she didnt realize was he was the materialistic one. He was the travel snob. Some trips I was not comfortable taking at the time because we had very small children with only his mother who gets extremely overwhelmed to keep them... and I was not comfortable going on the other side of the world for 2 complete weeks and without ANY communication from home. Apparently, this justified OW that we were just not compatible. We did many things together and enjoy the same hobbies and interest. I was just a mom who had to hold down the fort with 4 kids at home. Overwhelmed. No family around (his mom comes from 12 hours away to stay with our kids). In hindsight, we arent really that compatible. We want different things in life. I want my everyday life to be happy. He lives for exciting. Which since our divorce is putting him further and further into debt. I want monogamy. He seems to need many women.

 

Of course, he has his new girlfriend, and I see me in her. And it is just heart breaking to watch. He wont even friend her on social media. Claiming his xOW would figure out who she is and sabotage their relationship. And while that is true... it is because he still screwed around with OW.

[heartwhole2]

You're right heart whole, it wouldn't have mattered if the OW in your situation knew about gifts or vacations because your husband would have just spun some far fetched tale to her so that she would excuse it.

 

And even if it did matter, even if she ended the affair, so what? Logically I know that my marriage's fidelity is not based on how third parties interpret our actions, but how my husband and I choose to act. I think it was just the mind f*** of knowing that someone was so heavily invested in what we were doing when I had no idea. It was haunting for a while. And then we again return to the point that this messed up scenario only existed because my husband created it.

[darkbloom]

......Meanwhile my husband gives me a big diamond ring and then asks me not to post it on Facebook because obviously I'm the sort of person who likes to brag about receiving luxury items on Facebook . . . ......

 

Heartwhole this is some heavy stuff. I cannot believe your husband engineered and manipulated you using social media. Do you think he bought you the diamond ring out of guilt? How did you forgive this behavior?

Edited June 11, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[preraph]

I'm 66 and been around awhile and seen a lot. Telling your affair partner that your wife has mental issues and so he can't leave her is the stock answer when they get cornered by the AP for not leaving. I'm telling you it's been the stock answer for at least 60 years. It's nonsense. They leave their wife to raise their kids, take care of the house, often while the spouse also works, but they're too frail to bail on? Puhhhlease. Why would you default to believing what a man you already know is a cheater tells you? If his wife was that mentally ill, she wouldn't be functioning well and he'd likely have to take the kids and move out. It's utter nonsense.

 

He has no intention of leaving her. He is still having sex with her. He still wants to keep her. His goal isn't to find the next great love of his life and then give up the one he's already got. It's to have more than one woman to have sex with. You have got to face reality and stop wasting time and emotion on this man.

 

A salesman who used to call on a company I was a buyer for was a good looking guy. A woman came to work where I worked and it turned out she was a hired call girl who the company he worked for kept on retainer. They put her over at our company as a perk to the males there. I got to know her. I didn't know what her deal was yet, but she was pretty open about it. The first time I started wondering what was going on was when she told me she was all into and sleeping with this good looking salesman, who, of course, was married. I happened to know this salesman's younger sister. A guy I was seeing worked with her and was a good friend of hers, so I finally got the whole 360 on the situation.

 

The call girl didn't even care if he was married or not, but he always told other people and clients who noticed he slept around about his mentally frail wife who would kill herself if he left. It was all nonsense. It always is.

 

So by the time I had heard the call girl's story and perspective on it and everyone else's, one day in the office, it was the call girl's birthday and this salesman, Gus (I've never known a Gus who wasn't a bad person by the way) came in that day on business. I was expecting him to give her flowers or something since according to her they were a big item. Nothing. They both ended up in my office and I even reminded him it was her birthday and he just looked blank. Like, What does that have to do with me? I just had no respect for the guy after that.

 

And thought the call girl was crazy, of course. She had a bad role model. Her pilot dad was a player with flight attendants.

[BaileyB]

Well that is an interesting story pretaph. That a company could put a woman on retainer to be shared amongst the men is disturbing to say the least...

[heartwhole2]

Heartwhole this is some heavy stuff. I cannot believe your husband engineered and manipulated you using social media. Do you think he bought you the diamond ring out of guilt? How did you forgive this behavior?

 

No, the ring was in the works before he met OW (literally he had purchased the diamond and spoken to the designer before meeting her). We had used an heirloom diamond for my engagement ring so we had always planned to get something big like this for the 10th.

 

But then right after our anniversary is Christmas, and we promised no big gifts and he bought me an expensive Tiffany necklace. I definitely think that one was guilt. I do not wear that necklace, but if I liked it more I probably would.

 

I think if you can forgive an affair in general you can forgive the stuff that is part and parcel of it. For me there was definitely extra meaning in the way he had ruined special events and hidden "us" from the public eye. In the four years since the affair he has probably bought me 10 nice pieces of jewelry (whereas before the affair he generally considered it a waste of money), with various surprises and special meanings incorporated. Obviously he cannot make up for ruining that anniversary or purchase my forgiveness, but each instance helps tip the scales of "you took something that was important to me and ruined it" back to "I know you see me and want to make me happy." Likewise he has made just as many "Heartwhole2 is my lover and best friend" posts on FB (I always sort of giggle that he calls me his lover because his grandma is reading it, you know?) and while our private relationship is what is important, it was also necessary for him to show me that he is not embarrassed of or hiding his marriage. Whether other people think this is forced or fake is not really important to me. I know that he's not someone who can fake enthusiasm, hence why he was such a jerk to me during the affair.

 

But this is really more about a wooing that was necessary if he wanted my full heart. Forgiveness is a separate issue. It is not earned but is given freely because you see the humanity in the other person and you are bigger than the hurt that their actions caused. Whether to restore the relationship is based on whether you desire to do so and whether the other person is worthy of such a gift. He's still doing IC and has changed and grown a lot. Without that, a FB post or a gift wouldn't make a difference. They're really just symptoms of how he is fully committed to showing me that I am important to him. The most important way he has done that is the least sexy -- changing from a self-absorbed man-child to a selfless giver.

 

Apologies for the T/J, just wanted to answer the question.

[darkbloom]

Apologies for the T/J, just wanted to answer the question.

 

I don’t believe it’s a thread jack especially if OP reads of your experience as a BS and hopefully helps humanize her MM’s BS. The mental gymnastics and rose colored glasses of the OP are mind blowing. This is a lose/lose sitstion for everyone involved. Hugs to you for being so strong.

Edited June 10, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote edited

[BaileyB]

How did the conversation go this past weekend? Are you doing ok?

[SpiceCat]

Right. Let's not forget that the MM is a big contributor to the OP's messed up state of mind right now. She's not making him cheat on his wife, he's got her sucked in so deep that she can't see from right from wrong at the moment. He's the true puppeteer in all of this. He shared his marital problems and did the Oh woe is me, and painted this picture of himself being this poor perfect sweet man who just wishes he could make everyone happy, that po po man.......

 

Do you sleep with every man who tells you he's unhappy?

 

Unless he held her at g*npoint and forced her to enter into an affair, she is 100% responsible for her actions and for the position and the pain she is currently in.

 

My affair was incredibly similar to OP's. But I wasn't able to extract myself from it until I understood that the only person causing me pain was ME. Yes, my exMM was garbage, but I chose to jump into his dumpster.

Edited June 10, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator