In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[Timshel]

That’s a fair statement...

In order to establish any sort of equilibrium I would have to also truly adjust my approach and expectations... it would have to become a totally different thing for me mentally and emotionally.

 

 

Yes, but this has always been the case though, you haven't had an easy road since before you started this affair. This is a continuance of difficulty, essentially the same. Emotional incongruity....this is all too familiar, the same path.

 

You will need to step away from romantic relationships for a time and get out of yourself. You are repeating the same pattern over and over.

 

As I said before, you are self harming.

 

You said that therapy isn't easily available but that would be a gift to yourself to find a licensed practitioner.

 

You are correct asaysno that 'it would have to become a totally different thing for me mentally and emotionally.' Yes, and that will not come easily or overnight, this is hard work. It's also the best thing that you could do for yourself and your son.

It is freedom.

[heartwhole2]

Our philosophies differ when it comes to believing that a single person can make us feel that way. There are plenty of people I could have great sex, love, and joy with. I eliminate the potential partners who cause me to lose my self-respect or my integrity. I am suggesting that you move forward into the monogamous space that you say you want. If he wants to join you, hey, maybe you can beat the odds. If he doesn't, then you choose yourself. You don't have to choose between love/joy and integrity/monogamy. That is a false binary.

 

My point in my previous post was that I made it clear to my husband that I was moving forward into monogamy and health and maturity and selflessness, and he could join me or not. I didn't wait, frozen, for fear that he wouldn't come with me.

[finna]

Our philosophies differ when it comes to believing that a single person can make us feel that way. .....

 

I hear you. I’m working on the courage to get to that point as the current emotions are running too high.

Edited June 18, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Aloha123]

What is challenging in this context is that I feel great happiness when I spend time with this guy- he doesn’t “make” me happy but when I choose time and energy with him I feel very joyful.

 

But please understand that, when it comes to married men, the price for the happiness or highs we get from being with them is the inevitable lows that follow (you know, all those feelings that made you find this forum and keep you coming back to it). They are part and parcel of the situation, and in fact a hallmark of literally every single affair I have ever read about on here, not to mention my own

 

Again, the drug addiction analogy is exactly on point, because I promise you most cocaine users are quite happy while they are on it too.

[heartwhole2]

I hear you. I’m working on the courage to get to that point as the current emotions are running too high.

 

That's completely understandable. You've been working at this puzzle a very short time.

[SpiceCat]

Actually, the only person truly being deceived is MM’s wife- and of course that is a significant deception that I have urged him many times to come clean about. The few other people who would actually care already know. But yes, Inhave some decisions to make.

 

Ah..well..this is not exactly true since you still think there's a chance he will leave her for you.

 

If you've never heard it, look up the term future faking.

[S2B]

Actually, the only person truly being deceived is MM’s wife- and of course that is a significant deception that I have urged him many times to come clean about. The few other people who would actually care already know. But yes, Inhave some decisions to make.

 

May I ask?... why are you asking him to tell his wife when he clearly doesn’t ever intend for her to find out about you/the affair?

[BaileyB]

Actually, the only person truly being deceived is MM’s wife- and of course that is a significant deception that I have urged him many times to come clean about.

 

Of course, it’s not really your concern whether he tells his wife or not. It’s not your relationship. Sorry to be blunt, but if you were truly concerned for his wife’s feelings, you wouldn’t just be urging him to tell her the truth. You could end your emotional affair and stop sleeping with her husband...

Edited June 18, 2019 by BaileyB

[S2B]

I disagree... it’s not only deceiving his wife.

 

His child is being deceived... his extended family.

 

His child thinks he’s a good Dad. A good Dad would never cheat - it’s that simple.

 

His extended family assumes he’s faithful - so he’s deceiving all of them too.

 

You have no idea how the extensive impact the cheating and lies affects everyone in his home life. Long time friendships get broken apart. Business relationships can be affected.

 

He’s sly...because he hasn’t been found out... yet.

Edited June 18, 2019 by S2B

[finna]

May I ask?... why are you asking him to tell his wife when he clearly doesn’t ever intend for her to find out about you/the affair?

 

Because I hate the lies and deception... and especially earlier in our relationship there were a number of times when it seemed to make sense for everyone to be aware of the truth and deal with that information rather than trying to figure out what was happening.

[finna]

Ah..well..this is not exactly true since you still think there's a chance he will leave her for you.

 

If you've never heard it, look up the term future faking.

 

Yes- that was definitely happening previously... not so much now.

[sagamore]

Of course you are having some difficult days. You love this man and yet you need to be separated from him while he spends time with his wife and child. He’s given you no assurance about the future (other than vaguely hinting at future trips - read LKK’s thread to see how far that gets you). As much as you defend him and the relationship here, you know you’re standing on shifting ground and it’s making you sad and anxious.

 

But as bad as it feels, this time away is a gift. You should spend it thinking about and answering these questions:

 

What would it take for you to know you had to walk away from this relationship?

What would it take for you to know that you were now his priority and it was worth staying?

[BaileyB]

What would it take for you to know you had to walk away from this relationship?

What would it take for you to know that you were now his priority and it was worth staying?

 

Those are better questions than the pro/con list.

 

I would also add the obvious question - what do you want for your life? Assuming that a life with this man is not an option, where do you go from there? What do you want for your life and that of your son?

[finna]

What would it take for you to know you had to walk away from this relationship?

What would it take for you to know that you were now his priority and it was worth staying?

 

Those are great questions- I really appreciate your perspective.

Edited June 18, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[finna]

Those are better questions than the pro/con list.

 

I would also add the obvious question - what do you want for your life? Assuming that a life with this man is not an option, where do you go from there? What do you want for your life and that of your son?

 

I’m not entirely sure what I want for me other than the opportunity to travel and have fun/meaningful work. I’m not sure I’ll ever get married again but it’s always nice to have a best friend / lover who cares about me as well as at least a few other meaningful relationships among friends and family.

 

For my son - a global education with all kinds of experiential opportunities plus quality time with both me and his dad. I’m not worried about him beyond normal parenting concerns- he is smart, well-adjusted, and makes friends easily... and his dad and I are both committed to his success and well-being.

[What_Did_I_Do]

OP, I get where you are and understand how incredibly difficult this is.

 

If you read through enough stories here on LS, there is a distinct difference between the MM who leave their M and those who don't. Those who do plan for their exit (some confess their A to the BS, others don't) but the direction never changes. There are a few bumps along the road but they don't waiver. In most of these cases, the exit is quick but others take time to unfold. Those that are not going anywhere, offer promises to the OW, empty words of 'someday' after this event or that. And there will always, and I mean always, be another reason why he can't leave 'now'.

 

My xMM was in the first category. He did not waiver. The leaving part took years. But it did happen. Then he went back. Twice. And when he was on his own I held my breath the entire time wondering when he would about face and retreat home. And that he did. So there you have it. Even IF they do leave, odds are pretty d*mn good they will return to the M.

 

Your MM has laid it out for you. He's not leaving. The next excuse will be his W has to find employment, then establish herself financially. Then there will be issues with his son (whether there are or aren't is irrelevant).

 

For now, unfortunately, he's enjoying the admiration you give him and as long as you refrain from asking when he's leaving, he will keep you in his life. Start asking questions, and he'll be back to 'working on his M'. Lose-lose.

 

Don't wait around for years like I did. What a waste of this precious life.

[elaine567]

Seems to me those that leave for good with good outcomes are where the MM genuinely falls in love and where the OW is bona fide wife material. He then takes the necessary steps to leave asap as it is a no brainer for him.

 

Some will leave if the OW does not take any crap. She lays down the law either definitively or subtly, and the usually conflict avoidant MM sees a clear path ahead and leaves.

The outcome long term may be mixed, especially if in the clear light of day, he starts to feel he was bullied/blackmailed into leaving.

 

Some will leave as they are grabbing on to anything that is better than their marriage, again mixed outcomes.

 

Some will leave as they have no option, the wife has found out and has kicked him out...Outcome mixed. If she relents, he may go scurrying homewards...

[elaine567]

WDID,

On hindsight had he wavered, he may not have wasted so much of your time.

His keeping to the path albeit for years, lulled you into a false sense of security.

[heartwhole2]

Seems to me those that leave for good with good outcomes are where the MM genuinely falls in love and where the OW is bona fide wife material. He then takes the necessary steps to leave asap as it is a no brainer for him.

 

I think this unduly blames the OW for not being able to tell if he "genuinely" fell in love with her and for not being wife material. The MM is equally not good marriage material, arguably more so than a single OW, since he's the one crapping all over the marriage he already has. How is your average Mr. Cheater Pants going to magically develop all the skills and traits that he clearly lacks?

 

I maintain that feelings are just that, and that they are genuinely strong in most affairs. The confusion comes when we fail to realize that we can nurture or cut off feelings, and that we can have feelings for any number of people. Being attracted to someone and falling in love with them is easy to do. It doesn't mean that one's current marriage is unsalvageable or a marriage to the AP would be better.

 

It's hard to be in a healthy relationship or marriage without self-awareness, empathy, resilience, maturity, good communication skills, etc. People who have affairs are rarely top of the class in these areas, hence why it's very hard to take an affair and turn it into your happily ever after. Your relationship is starting at a huge disadvantage and you're both going to have to work your butts off to grow up if you're going to have a chance.

[S2B]

Because I hate the lies and deception... and especially earlier in our relationship there were a number of times when it seemed to make sense for everyone to be aware of the truth and deal with that information rather than trying to figure out what was happening.

 

But what you’re not realizing is this MM loves the lies and deception. He is living on different principles than you are.

 

He’s even willing to lie to his wife when she visits and he’s spending time with you. He’s not the guy who is going to be honest.

[heartwhole2]

this MM loves the lies and deception. He is living on different principles than you are.

 

This MM is trying to create some boundaries to ease his guilt, so I don't think this is true of him. He wants to temper OP's expectations and not allow his affair to "sully" things like his wedding anniversary. He tells "half-truths" to his BW about there being other people there (not mentioning they left) because that's less icky that 100% lies. Some people lie with ease but I think this MM is your classic conflict-avoidant cheater who has sunk in the quicksand of his own avoidance.

 

Some people's default is to avoid conflict at all costs. That's how MM wind up in affairs, and then the conflict that would result from revealing the affair is so gigantic that they sure as hell aren't going to bring that about.

 

Sometimes they work up a little courage to say that they want a separation or give the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech to their BW. But because the BW doesn't know about the affair, she's all, what? You're having a midlife crisis? Obviously we should go to counseling, we have kids for goodness' sake! And then he drops it. He doesn't have the backbone to determine what he wants and make it happen no matter what. If it doesn't go smoothly with little blow-back, he gives up.

 

MM do not have a tolerance for stress and annoyance when it comes to personal interactions. They don't know how to communicate effectively. They feel victimized by their circumstances instead of in control. Having an affair can be the ultimate, "You make me feel powerless!" move to get back at the BW, who doesn't realize he isn't sharing his long, long, long list of grievances with her. We can blame other people for not being psychic or we can speak up, even when it's uncomfortable.

 

This started out as fun for the MM. It was wonderful to dream of a relationship where he didn't feel stifled or without a voice. He allowed himself to believe he could make it a reality, and that reality would be great. But all of this is built on the premise that his marriage is bad because he's not valued, when we know it's really because he has allowed his unspoken conflicts to turn into a giant ball of resentment. He's figured out that banking on this complicated affair relationship turning into a stable and happy real world relationship is foolhardy, so he's backed off. But it still feels nice to be lovers and friends with the OP. He can dismiss this being unfair to the OW pretty easily. She's complicit in deceiving his wife, after all. He's thinking, "She should have known better. She knows I'm married."

[pepperbird]

Because I hate the lies and deception...

 

 

I know it's not pleasant, but if you are in an affair you will have to accept that this is part and parcel of the situation.

 

 

 

You are going to have to accept that part of you is okay with asking someone else else to pay a huge price for the happy times you have with this guy. Sure if, it wasn't you it could be someone else, but it isn't someone else. It's you.

 

 

 

One of the saddest parts of this is that it won't even be you or mm who gets hurt the most by this. At least two others, who are completely innocent and asked for none of this, are the ones who will pay the highest price for your relationship. As painful as all this may be for you, it's going to be 100 fold worse for them. When it ends, you'll get to walk away consoling yourself that you learned something and will make better choices in the future. His wife and child? This all gets dumped on their lap, whether they asked for it or wanted it or not. They have no choice.

 

 

 

You will have helped to cause them a huge amount of heartache, and all for what? For some stolen moments of happiness with him?

 

Do you see yourself continuing to be okay with that? My prediction is that, unless you are as good at compartmentalizing or some other form of mental gymnastics, this will eat away at you. The elephant the room will remain, and since you don't sound like a heartless or cruel person to me, I just can't see you feeling good about this for very long.

[pepperbird]

Some people's default is to avoid conflict at all costs. That's how MM wind up in affairs, and then the conflict that would result from revealing the affair is so gigantic that they sure as hell aren't going to bring that about.

 

 

 

I agree this is true sometime, but others?

 

 

Some people feel entitled to cheat because, well, they just want to cheat. It's not to avoid conflict or because they are hurting or confused.

 

They are just aren't suited to being with one person. It's like the parable of the little boy trying to plug up the holes in the dam with his fingers. One person isn't ever going to be enough. He or she may be happy as a clam in their marriage, but they just want "more". One person will never be enough. The key here is that they don't really want to not be married. In fact, they actually like and enjoy being married...they just want more.

[SpiceCat]

I’m not entirely sure what I want for me other than the opportunity to travel and have fun/meaningful work. I’m not sure I’ll ever get married again but it’s always nice to have a best friend / lover who cares about me as well as at least a few other meaningful relationships among friends and family.

 

For my son - a global education with all kinds of experiential opportunities plus quality time with both me and his dad. I’m not worried about him beyond normal parenting concerns- he is smart, well-adjusted, and makes friends easily... and his dad and I are both committed to his success and well-being.

 

What do you think your son would tell you if he found out that you are sleeping with a married man and hoping he will leave his family for you? Would he be happy for you?

[Prudence V]

Seems to me those that leave for good with good outcomes are where the MM genuinely falls in love and where the OW is bona fide wife material. He then takes the necessary steps to leave asap as it is a no brainer for him.

 

That’s possibly the nicest thing anyone has said about me on these boards :lmao: