In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[finna]

Those are better questions than the pro/con list.

 

I would also add the obvious question - what do you want for your life? Assuming that a life with this man is not an option, where do you go from there? What do you want for your life and that of your son?

 

I’m not entirely sure what I want for me other than the opportunity to travel and have fun/meaningful work. I’m not sure I’ll ever get married again but it’s always nice to have a best friend / lover who cares about me as well as at least a few other meaningful relationships among friends and family.

 

For my son - a global education with all kinds of experiential opportunities plus quality time with both me and his dad. I’m not worried about him beyond normal parenting concerns- he is smart, well-adjusted, and makes friends easily... and his dad and I are both committed to his success and well-being.

[What_Did_I_Do]

OP, I get where you are and understand how incredibly difficult this is.

 

If you read through enough stories here on LS, there is a distinct difference between the MM who leave their M and those who don't. Those who do plan for their exit (some confess their A to the BS, others don't) but the direction never changes. There are a few bumps along the road but they don't waiver. In most of these cases, the exit is quick but others take time to unfold. Those that are not going anywhere, offer promises to the OW, empty words of 'someday' after this event or that. And there will always, and I mean always, be another reason why he can't leave 'now'.

 

My xMM was in the first category. He did not waiver. The leaving part took years. But it did happen. Then he went back. Twice. And when he was on his own I held my breath the entire time wondering when he would about face and retreat home. And that he did. So there you have it. Even IF they do leave, odds are pretty d*mn good they will return to the M.

 

Your MM has laid it out for you. He's not leaving. The next excuse will be his W has to find employment, then establish herself financially. Then there will be issues with his son (whether there are or aren't is irrelevant).

 

For now, unfortunately, he's enjoying the admiration you give him and as long as you refrain from asking when he's leaving, he will keep you in his life. Start asking questions, and he'll be back to 'working on his M'. Lose-lose.

 

Don't wait around for years like I did. What a waste of this precious life.

[elaine567]

Seems to me those that leave for good with good outcomes are where the MM genuinely falls in love and where the OW is bona fide wife material. He then takes the necessary steps to leave asap as it is a no brainer for him.

 

Some will leave if the OW does not take any crap. She lays down the law either definitively or subtly, and the usually conflict avoidant MM sees a clear path ahead and leaves.

The outcome long term may be mixed, especially if in the clear light of day, he starts to feel he was bullied/blackmailed into leaving.

 

Some will leave as they are grabbing on to anything that is better than their marriage, again mixed outcomes.

 

Some will leave as they have no option, the wife has found out and has kicked him out...Outcome mixed. If she relents, he may go scurrying homewards...

[elaine567]

WDID,

On hindsight had he wavered, he may not have wasted so much of your time.

His keeping to the path albeit for years, lulled you into a false sense of security.

[heartwhole2]

Seems to me those that leave for good with good outcomes are where the MM genuinely falls in love and where the OW is bona fide wife material. He then takes the necessary steps to leave asap as it is a no brainer for him.

 

I think this unduly blames the OW for not being able to tell if he "genuinely" fell in love with her and for not being wife material. The MM is equally not good marriage material, arguably more so than a single OW, since he's the one crapping all over the marriage he already has. How is your average Mr. Cheater Pants going to magically develop all the skills and traits that he clearly lacks?

 

I maintain that feelings are just that, and that they are genuinely strong in most affairs. The confusion comes when we fail to realize that we can nurture or cut off feelings, and that we can have feelings for any number of people. Being attracted to someone and falling in love with them is easy to do. It doesn't mean that one's current marriage is unsalvageable or a marriage to the AP would be better.

 

It's hard to be in a healthy relationship or marriage without self-awareness, empathy, resilience, maturity, good communication skills, etc. People who have affairs are rarely top of the class in these areas, hence why it's very hard to take an affair and turn it into your happily ever after. Your relationship is starting at a huge disadvantage and you're both going to have to work your butts off to grow up if you're going to have a chance.

[heartwhole2]

this MM loves the lies and deception. He is living on different principles than you are.

 

This MM is trying to create some boundaries to ease his guilt, so I don't think this is true of him. He wants to temper OP's expectations and not allow his affair to "sully" things like his wedding anniversary. He tells "half-truths" to his BW about there being other people there (not mentioning they left) because that's less icky that 100% lies. Some people lie with ease but I think this MM is your classic conflict-avoidant cheater who has sunk in the quicksand of his own avoidance.

 

Some people's default is to avoid conflict at all costs. That's how MM wind up in affairs, and then the conflict that would result from revealing the affair is so gigantic that they sure as hell aren't going to bring that about.

 

Sometimes they work up a little courage to say that they want a separation or give the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech to their BW. But because the BW doesn't know about the affair, she's all, what? You're having a midlife crisis? Obviously we should go to counseling, we have kids for goodness' sake! And then he drops it. He doesn't have the backbone to determine what he wants and make it happen no matter what. If it doesn't go smoothly with little blow-back, he gives up.

 

MM do not have a tolerance for stress and annoyance when it comes to personal interactions. They don't know how to communicate effectively. They feel victimized by their circumstances instead of in control. Having an affair can be the ultimate, "You make me feel powerless!" move to get back at the BW, who doesn't realize he isn't sharing his long, long, long list of grievances with her. We can blame other people for not being psychic or we can speak up, even when it's uncomfortable.

 

This started out as fun for the MM. It was wonderful to dream of a relationship where he didn't feel stifled or without a voice. He allowed himself to believe he could make it a reality, and that reality would be great. But all of this is built on the premise that his marriage is bad because he's not valued, when we know it's really because he has allowed his unspoken conflicts to turn into a giant ball of resentment. He's figured out that banking on this complicated affair relationship turning into a stable and happy real world relationship is foolhardy, so he's backed off. But it still feels nice to be lovers and friends with the OP. He can dismiss this being unfair to the OW pretty easily. She's complicit in deceiving his wife, after all. He's thinking, "She should have known better. She knows I'm married."

[pepperbird]

Because I hate the lies and deception...

 

 

I know it's not pleasant, but if you are in an affair you will have to accept that this is part and parcel of the situation.

 

 

 

You are going to have to accept that part of you is okay with asking someone else else to pay a huge price for the happy times you have with this guy. Sure if, it wasn't you it could be someone else, but it isn't someone else. It's you.

 

 

 

One of the saddest parts of this is that it won't even be you or mm who gets hurt the most by this. At least two others, who are completely innocent and asked for none of this, are the ones who will pay the highest price for your relationship. As painful as all this may be for you, it's going to be 100 fold worse for them. When it ends, you'll get to walk away consoling yourself that you learned something and will make better choices in the future. His wife and child? This all gets dumped on their lap, whether they asked for it or wanted it or not. They have no choice.

 

 

 

You will have helped to cause them a huge amount of heartache, and all for what? For some stolen moments of happiness with him?

 

Do you see yourself continuing to be okay with that? My prediction is that, unless you are as good at compartmentalizing or some other form of mental gymnastics, this will eat away at you. The elephant the room will remain, and since you don't sound like a heartless or cruel person to me, I just can't see you feeling good about this for very long.

[pepperbird]

Some people's default is to avoid conflict at all costs. That's how MM wind up in affairs, and then the conflict that would result from revealing the affair is so gigantic that they sure as hell aren't going to bring that about.

 

 

 

I agree this is true sometime, but others?

 

 

Some people feel entitled to cheat because, well, they just want to cheat. It's not to avoid conflict or because they are hurting or confused.

 

They are just aren't suited to being with one person. It's like the parable of the little boy trying to plug up the holes in the dam with his fingers. One person isn't ever going to be enough. He or she may be happy as a clam in their marriage, but they just want "more". One person will never be enough. The key here is that they don't really want to not be married. In fact, they actually like and enjoy being married...they just want more.

[SpiceCat]

I’m not entirely sure what I want for me other than the opportunity to travel and have fun/meaningful work. I’m not sure I’ll ever get married again but it’s always nice to have a best friend / lover who cares about me as well as at least a few other meaningful relationships among friends and family.

 

For my son - a global education with all kinds of experiential opportunities plus quality time with both me and his dad. I’m not worried about him beyond normal parenting concerns- he is smart, well-adjusted, and makes friends easily... and his dad and I are both committed to his success and well-being.

 

What do you think your son would tell you if he found out that you are sleeping with a married man and hoping he will leave his family for you? Would he be happy for you?

[Prudence V]

Seems to me those that leave for good with good outcomes are where the MM genuinely falls in love and where the OW is bona fide wife material. He then takes the necessary steps to leave asap as it is a no brainer for him.

 

That’s possibly the nicest thing anyone has said about me on these boards :lmao:

[Aloha123]

I agree this is true sometime, but others?

 

 

Some people feel entitled to cheat because, well, they just want to cheat. It's not to avoid conflict or because they are hurting or confused.

 

They are just aren't suited to being with one person. It's like the parable of the little boy trying to plug up the holes in the dam with his fingers. One person isn't ever going to be enough. He or she may be happy as a clam in their marriage, but they just want "more". One person will never be enough. The key here is that they don't really want to not be married. In fact, they actually like and enjoy being married...they just want more.

 

You have described my x-mm 100%!! He would and even has admitted to as much.

[finna]

Thank you to everyone for the recent very thoughtful comments. In my case, I truly thought we were headed down the path of being unwavering in our commitment to be together. Obviously that has not happened as something occurred to make MM go from his consistent communication and commitment to not. What exactly transpired he says he owes me an explanation about, but he hasn’t given it yet. It may or may not matter.

 

I have talked to a couple of mutual friends that know him well (he is aware of this) and they say they think he has still not really “made a decision” and that when he started to get stressed he took the path of least resistance.

 

Obviously this is not “unwavering commitment” at this point, although it seemed we had that for a quite a while. The friends also state that until he takes the time to be alone for a little while and figure out what really makes him happy, he will continue to do what is easiest in the moment- not that the energy of keeping up an affair is necessarily easy.

 

However, history so far has shown that he is really loathe to be introspective and examine his thoughts and feelings... so he may continue to live a half-ass existence with all his personal relationships.

[Orokotikki]

His wife thought she had "unwavering commitment" but no doubt what she got is the best that backstabber of a man can offer.

[Aloha123]

I have talked to a couple of mutual friends that know him well (he is aware of this) and they say they think he has still not really “made a decision” and that when he started to get stressed he took the path of least resistance.

.

 

Please understand though that, in these circumstances,"not making a decision" is basically a de facto decision to maintain the status quo, i.e. stay with his wife.

 

And even assuming you are right, notwithstanding the opinion of literally every person who has responded to this thread, he is never ever going to have any incentive to "decide to choose you" if you continue to settle for the current situation, which gives him the best of both worlds.

[finna]

What do you think your son would tell you if he found out that you are sleeping with a married man and hoping he will leave his family for you? Would he be happy for you?

 

My son is too young to know or care about such details. What he notices is when he has my full attention (which I make a point to provide regularly) and whether I am (truly) happy and smiling. He’s a bit of an empath so can pick up on feelings fairly easily... which is also why I make a point to be present for him when I am with him.

[heartwhole2]

I have talked to a couple of mutual friends that know him well (he is aware of this) and they say they think he has still not really “made a decision” and that when he started to get stressed he took the path of least resistance.

 

What is the benefit to remaining in an affair with him while you are waiting for him to make a decision?

[finna]

What is the benefit to remaining in an affair with him while you are waiting for him to make a decision?

 

We have a lot of fun together and support each other in many ways... and as I’ve said I love him very much. Not the idea of him, not the way he makes me feel, but him. Feelings can be damned inconvenient.

 

I guess the benefit is the support and joyful times.

[Amethyst68]

I think I asked before but will you be NC during your vacation and time away fun MM? Taking the time until you HAVE to see him for business to gain some distance and perspective?

[Aloha123]

We have a lot of fun together and support each other in many ways... and as I’ve said I love him very much. Not the idea of him, not the way he makes me feel, but him. Feelings can be damned inconvenient.

 

I guess the benefit is the support and joyful times.

 

May I ask, what is your dilemma then, other than that you want him all for yourself?

The reason I ask is, I voluntarily chose to remain in an affair for 2 years with a happily married man because the highs outweighed the lows, until they didn't. So I do understand where you are coming from.

 

Perhaps you should just admit to yourself that this is what you are choosing. All the wheel-spinning about whether he will ever leave his wife is just a waste of your time given that he has told you he has no plans to at the moment. Please take him at this word on that. Maybe then once you face that reality the lows will start outweighing the highs.

[finna]

I think I asked before but will you be NC during your vacation and time away fun MM? Taking the time until you HAVE to see him for business to gain some distance and perspective?

 

It’s limited contact. Some business discussion, and casual exchanges, but definitely not the frequency and content of other times.

[finna]

May I ask, what is your dilemma then, other than that you want him all for yourself?....

 

If I thought there would be some steady consistency I would potentially consider this given my current state- the “have fun when we are together and figure the rest out later” mentality. But I don’t know whether I can sustain that or if he will - right now it varies by the day where his head seems to be at.

Edited June 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[elaine567]

He was consistently consistent when it was just fun.

Now it is serious, you took it and him seriously, he is suddenly not quite so consistent...

[SpiceCat]

My son is too young to know or care about such details. What he notices is when he has my full attention (which I make a point to provide regularly) and whether I am (truly) happy and smiling. He’s a bit of an empath so can pick up on feelings fairly easily... which is also why I make a point to be present for him when I am with him.

 

You know what I mean. When he is old enough to understand, do you think he would be proud of this?

 

You seem particularly angry with me. I know I am harsh but these are the same questions I faced myself. My daughter is still too young to know or care about any of this either, but I still want to feel worthy of her love and affection. I want to know she'd be proud of me.

 

I didn't say you were a bad or a neglectful mother..not at all. I asked if your son would be happy for you or proud of you knowing what you're doing, or attempting to do. Knowing that you are actively hoping to break up another family. Is this the example you'd want to set for him?

 

Something to think about.

 

As for your other post - we all thought our affairs would be different. We all thought we were the exception to the rule. But rules are rules for a reason, and the chances that you are an exception are slim to none. You know this. You know the right thing to do is to walk away. Analyzing the details will not help. If he wanted to leave, he would leave..end of story. Men are not as complicated as we try to make them out to be.

 

You are better than this. You DESERVE better than this.

Edited June 18, 2019 by SpiceCat

[BaileyB]

If I thought there would be some steady consistency I would potentially consider this given my current state- the “have fun when we are together” mentality.

 

Again, not to sound like a broken record... but how is this fair or right by his wife and his child? Why are you entitled to “have your fun” at other people’s expense?

 

By your own admission, it sounds like you are raising a fine young man. Intelligent, an empath, I’m sure you are hoping to teach him to be kind and compassionate to others, to develop empathy, and to live his life with a strong moral compass. What would you say to him if he came to you and told you he had/was planning to do something that would be extremely hurtful to the other children at school - would you say “have your fun, as long as you are happy...” Would you be ok with that or would you think - “Oh my, we have done something really wrong here in how we are hoping to parent this child and raise him to be a kind, empathetic, moral and responsible young man?”

 

With respect, just because you want a lover and companion it does not give you the right to settle on another woman’s husband. There are plenty of single and available men in this world... your happiness should not come at someone else’s expense.

Edited June 19, 2019 by BaileyB

[finna]

You know what I mean. When he is old enough to understand, do you think he would be proud of this? You seem particularly angry with me. I know I am harsh but these are the same questions I faced myself. ...

 

I’m not angry at all- especially not with you. I appreciate the insight.

Edited June 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator