HadMeOverABarrel Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Let go of what was, surrender to what is, so you can better anticipate what may come! What may come is almost always better than what was. Also, here's a (non-affair) book suggestion that you may find helpful: Who Moved My Cheese? by Spencer Johnson M.D. Short, easy read, but impactful and insightful. It would benefit you much with this situation and beyond. Link to post Share on other sites
Orokotikki Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 It is important for him to leave you hanging from time to time unexpectedly. It is called "intermittent reinforcement" you can look it up in psychology articles. It makes it easier to string you along (whether or not he 'conscious' of this) and helps give the relationship an addictive quality like crack. In regards to the relationship it helps keep you as an addict. Link to post Share on other sites
HadMeOverABarrel Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 It is important for him to leave you hanging from time to time unexpectedly. It is called "intermittent reinforcement" you can look it up in psychology articles. It makes it easier to string you along (whether or not he 'conscious' of this) and helps give the relationship an addictive quality like crack. In regards to the relationship it helps keep you as an addict. Intermittent reinforcement combined with sunk cost fallacy is a powerful cocktail! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
ExhaustedOW Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Perhaps, very true if he is in an unhealthy, very codependent, relationship and he has stayed for longer than he should... It’s also another reason to think that he will not be very successful in actually leaving the relationship, or may be at high risk to go back if he ever does leave the relationship. I’m sure you do have feelings for each other, but nothing you have said indicates that this man is actually interested or ready to leave his wife. ugh, i have to agree. my xMM told me that he gets himself all tangled up trying to make everyone happy - he can't even think about himself. whether true or not, it's a red flag. conflict avoidance to the extreme, which is just another big red flag that he will not leave his wife. maybe for a weekend here and there. maybe even for a few months. but in the end... he wants to make everyone happy Link to post Share on other sites
heartwhole2 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 ugh, i have to agree. my xMM told me that he gets himself all tangled up trying to make everyone happy - he can't even think about himself. whether true or not, it's a red flag. conflict avoidance to the extreme, which is just another big red flag that he will not leave his wife. maybe for a weekend here and there. maybe even for a few months. but in the end... he wants to make everyone happy The key is that he believes this but it's another lie he tells himself. He tells the OW he can't leave because he has to keep his family happy. So the OW thinks, "But wouldn't your BW be happier if she weren't married to a liar who prefers another woman?" He has to look at the big picture. It's not a question of which woman he enjoys spending an hour with more. It's a question of how he can possibly forge his own happiness in a world where he's going through a nasty divorce and has an unhappy kid and part-time custody. He doesn't like being alone, and currently he's not alone when asaysno is 5,000 miles away. But if he chooses monogamy with asaysno, he'll be alone a lot more than he is now, with his kid part of the time, and none of whatever he enjoys about his life with BW. Spending a happy hour with a lover does not mean you get a lifetime of happiness in the real world. This has dawned on him. But how does he get out of the mess he's in, with a lover who won't "turn her key" (shout out to anyone who gets the Seinfeld reference)? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SpiceCat Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 (edited) I didn’t say I spent time with their son in their home - there have been several times traveling when urgent situations arose (such as medical) and we went to a park or similar - yes it was with BS knowledge.... The BS knows that you are sleeping with her husband and attempting to convince him to abandon her and their child for you? Edited June 27, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
heartwhole2 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 The BS knows that you are sleeping with her husband and attempting to convince him to abandon her and their child for you? Earlier in the thread asaysno actually said that if her husband brought an AP around their child but she didn't know about the affair, she'd be fine with it. I've seen this many times before, OW thinking she should get to do all the things a person not having an affair with the BW's husband should get to do. It's like thinking that your job should treat you better because they're unaware that you're stealing from them. Well, maybe they're not the best bosses but you are still stealing from them . . . and it's just maybe possible that your thievery impacts your job performance in ways you're not aware of. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
sagamore Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I didn’t say I spent time with their son in their home - there have been several times traveling when urgent situations arose (such as medical) and we went to a park or similar - yes it was with BS knowledge. And neither he nor I speak badly of her. He respects her as the mother of his child and I believe has been trying to set her up for economic success upon the end of their relationship (were that to happen). Yes, I have expressed my observations of behavior in this thread because it is relevant to my perceptions of the situation and where I’m at in the mix. I’m sure it had come across as confused at times as I try to relate a year’s worth of details- I’ve tried to answer as openly as honestly as I can without judgement of the questions as I’m grateful for everyone’s efforts to help me. Come on now. In your opening post you say he told you she was manipulative and mentally unstable. That’s not speaking badly of her? Or was that your gloss on the situation? You may think you’re not judging her but you both are. It’s one of the only ways you can emotionally survive what you know is a terrible, unethical situation. What if she were your sister? Your best friend? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
PhoenixRising8 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 OP you are about 2 months out from the game changing. I am about 2 months out from the end. At 2 months out from my game changer, I realized that it was time to start the detachment process which took another 6 months. Nonetheless the end has been excruciating. If you're smart you will take the time apart to really consider all the advice you have been provided in the last 2 weeks of this thread. And you've received a lot. All valid. You may not see it, more likely don't want to because you are still holding on to hope and the illusion of the perfect union. Perfect illusions are hard to let go of because they seem perfect, but they aren't real. Hard to believe your "reality" could have been faked. In some ways, it wasn't but that's only because it exists in a bubble, without real every day challenges interfering. Someone on another thread said something along the lines of we all go through break ups and survive and the end of an affair is just another break up. That's not entirely true. Yes it is a break up in the traditional sense of needing to grieve the loss of someone who was friend and lover but it isn't like a normal singletons' break up. There are so many factors that are not in play when 2 singles break up. While you may discover truths were lies or that you were naive or gullible in believing in a fantasy fairy tale ending, you also were NOT complicit in deceiving a third party. Your happiness and fulfillment were not at the expense of someone else's. And if you had a strong moral compass, you aren't feeling huge self recrimination for betraying your own moral code and values. You aren't wondering how you could ever betray yourself so completely. And you wonder how anyone so completely capable of deceit of such magnitude could ever be worthy of the faith and devotion you gave him. You wonder how you could have deceived yourself so totally and not seen what was really always there, right in front of you. You lose faith and trust in yourself. You confidence and esteem take a beating. Ask me how I know ... Affairs ultimately destroy your sense of self. The longer you wait, the harder it is. I spent the last 6 months confirming what I knew last November and wasted precious healing time in the process. My therapist talked to me about the theory of the N of One (one subject behaving in the same way repeatedly) but I didn't listen. As soon as he retreated once, the odds were he would do it again. And I allowed him to. That's on me. I had "evidence" that was much stronger than yours: he didn't stop saying "I love you", back off emotionally, see me less or on different terms, was 50 miles away, not 5,000 AND he told his wife, adult kids and best friends he wanted to leave the marriage. In the end, he didn't leave for whatever reason. Anything you have to hold on to is less than I had so your odds are even less. As they say "caveat emptor". 3 Link to post Share on other sites
anika99 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 After frequent communication two days ago (and prior) I have been ghosted the last day and a half. This is the part that definitely doesn’t feel good. It’s not completely unexpected with vacation time but he did say he would be checking in regularly so something is off, as we generally communicate at least once or twice or day. He did post a picture of BS and son on social media and while his son was smiling hugely she looked like she wanted to cut MM’s balls off- totally pissed off. Not trying to read anything specific into that - just observing and wondering what’s happening... could be nothing of significance. My son and I are staying with friends through the weekend so I am treating this as a NC period. I will not message unless I hear something substantial from him and see how it goes for me... baby steps. That's quite a stretch. She could have looked annoyed for any number of reasons. Maybe her son was being irritating, maybe the sun was in her eyes. Who knows. What do you mean a ton of people are asking you about it? Who is asking and why would they ask you? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author finna Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 How old are you two? You have youngish kids (I’m assuming) but it seems like maybe you’re both in your 40’s? Late 30s + early 40s Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Let go of what was, surrender to what is, so you can better anticipate what may come! What may come is almost always better than what was. Also, here's a (non-affair) book suggestion that you may find helpful: Who Moved My Cheese? by Spencer Johnson M.D. Short, easy read, but impactful and insightful. It would benefit you much with this situation and beyond. That’s a great quote! And, a great book! Link to post Share on other sites
Author finna Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 The BS knows that you are sleeping with her husband and attempting to convince him to abandon her and their child for you? No- she was aware I was taking care of their child a couple of different times. Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 No- she was aware I was taking care of their child a couple of different times. Well then, you can’t say that you had her consent. If she knew she was placing her child with a predator in the lions den, she wouldn’t have agreed. That’s a tough word, but it describes your situation accurately. YOU are a predator to her marriage, and her family. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 And you wonder how anyone so completely capable of deceit of such magnitude could ever be worthy of the faith and devotion you gave him. You wonder how you could have deceived yourself so totally and not seen what was really always there, right in front of you. You lose faith and trust in yourself. You confidence and esteem take a beating. Ask me how I know ... You were in a place where you craved attention, affection and love. Had Attila the Hun showed up with a bottle of wine, a willingness to listen and the desire to show you a good time, you would have been all over him... Link to post Share on other sites
Author finna Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 Come on now. In your opening post you say he told you she was manipulative and mentally unstable. ThatÂ’s not speaking badly of her? Or was that your gloss on the situation? You may think youÂ’re not judging her but you both are. ItÂ’s one of the only ways you can emotionally survive what you know is a terrible, unethical situation. What if she were your sister? Your best friend? SheÂ’s in treatment for her issues. IÂ’ve witnessed the overt manipulation plus he has expressed his frustration at various specific situations. So to me those are true statements. Manipulation is open to interpretation but feeling manipulated can be a personÂ’s truth and it is/was for MM. Link to post Share on other sites
heartwhole2 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 SheÂ’s in treatment for her issues. IÂ’ve witnessed the overt manipulation plus he has expressed his frustration at various specific situations. So to me those are true statements. Manipulation is open to interpretation but feeling manipulated can be a personÂ’s truth and it is/was for MM. The first two or three pages of your thread are full of examples and judgments about BW's behavior. Why did you feel her behavior was such an important piece of the puzzle that you initially devoted so much of your analysis to it? Can you believe you're even in a relationship where your boyfriend's wife's behavior matters? Do you still think your MM is the "most selfless person" you know? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author finna Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 That's quite a stretch. She could have looked annoyed for any number of reasons. Maybe her son was being irritating, maybe the sun was in her eyes. Who knows. What do you mean a ton of people are asking you about it? Who is asking and why would they ask you? I said “several” - and it was friends who are familiar with the situation. Link to post Share on other sites
Author finna Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 The first two or three pages of your thread are full of examples and judgments about BW's behavior. Why did you feel her behavior was such an important piece of the puzzle that you initially devoted so much of your analysis to it? Can you believe you're even in a relationship where your boyfriend's wife's behavior matters? Do you still think your MM is the "most selfless person" you know? Yes- I still think he is extremely selfless - he is always trying to please everyone else - unfortunately to his own detriment, including inability to set some limits and boundaries. Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I said “several” - and it was friends who are familiar with the situation. So, he has “several” friends who have met you and know about this extramarital affair. And you have “several” friends, who know about the affair and are monitoring his/his wife’s social media - for what purpose exactly? Are they just interested in the gossip or are they actually encouraging you to breakup this family? How crappy is it that a whole community knows about her husband’s sex life and yet his wife doesn’t. How do you think that will feel for her when she finds out? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
heartwhole2 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I don't think we're operating under the same definition of "selfless." To me it means altruistic, generous, someone who does not seek to benefit their own life, etc. You're describing someone whose actions don't better anyone else's lives, they just avoid conflict in the immediate moment for MM. A selfless person acts out of deep love and compassion for others, which we can only develop after we have a deep love for ourselves. Letting others bleed you dry isn't selfless; it's weak. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Starswillshine Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I would never call someone engaged in an extramarital affair as selfless. That in it's very self is EXTREMELY selfish and the opposite of selfless. Wake up! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 (edited) Yes- I still think he is extremely selfless - he is always trying to please everyone else - unfortunately to his own detriment, including inability to set some limits and boundaries. The only person he is pleasing right now is himself. The decisions he is making are for his own benefit, not to his own detriment. Unless, you consider the situation from the opinion that this love affair has been destined in the stars and he has stayed with the manipulative and unstable wife despite his better interest. Considering that this is your current view of the situation, I can see how you would think this. He is not selfless, by that definition he is a people pleaser. And that usually comes from a place of weakness, insecurity, and and inability to establish healthy boundaries in relationships. If he was truly selfless, he would want the best for you. That would mean he would never ask you to be in a relationship when he knows it’s not what you want/he can’t give you what you want. If he was truly selfless, he would be willing to forgo his own needs for the happiness and wellbeing of his wife. He would not be lying to his wife and subjecting her to public ridicule by allowing his friends to meet his affair partner. Edited June 20, 2019 by BaileyB 1 Link to post Share on other sites
heartwhole2 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 So, he has “several” friends who have met you and know about this extramarital affair. And you have “several” friends, who know about the affair and are monitoring his/his wife’s social media - for what purpose exactly? Are they just interested in the gossip or are they actually encouraging you to breakup this family? How crappy is it that a whole community knows about her husband’s sex life and yet his wife doesn’t. How do you think that will feel for her when she finds out? I do wonder about these friends. My husband met the OW through mutual friends, and they had a group text that I wasn't part of. My husband reached out the closest friend in the group and admitted that he had developed feelings for the OW, and the friend said, "Whoa! Stop! Think about what you are doing!" So my husband did not admit to a full-on affair. These friends would not have condoned it. After DDay, they dumped the OW, though I did not ask them to. They were horrified and felt guilty by association, though of course it wasn't their fault. So what's up with your friend group? Do they reflect the kind of person you want to be? I know you feel that their approval of your affair is proof that we should all lighten up and realize you two are the exception to the rules, but what if they're just not very good people? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 He would not be lying to his wife and subjecting her to public ridicule by allowing his friends to meet his affair partner. Agreed. I know you see it as evidence you are being taken seriously, but it is pretty low behaviour on his part. Men see this kind of thing as bragging rights, "Oh look at me I have a clueless wife at home and I am parading around with my OW." Ugh! just Ugh! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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