In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[sagamore]

I wouldn’t say these folks “approve” as such- they care a lot about MM and I as individuals and recognize the connection we have. By the same token they also think he needs to be honest and go legit with me if that’s his path to happiness (or commit *fully* to BS). They don’t like the deception - and want everything to be done as right as it can be at this point. So yes- I think they are very good people.

 

So even your mutual friends think you should no longer be the OW. I agree. I think the ONLY shot you have at getting him to possibly leave (which is a VERY dubious good) is for you to tell him you need to do the right thing for you both and say goodbye unless and until his marriage ends. Give him a chance to miss you and think about you. And honestly...also make yourself worth marrying. It’s hypocritical, but most men who are cheating would never marry a woman who also cheats. Double standard. Remember when he said something like “what does it say about you that you like me?” Don’t argue with me here. I know you’re going to say it’s self-loathing, and it is - but it’s not ALL that. You cheapen your worth when you settle for what he’s offering now - dwindling communication, less verbal and physical affection, and no more future promises. If you stay, it’s all downhill from here. Listen to LKK. She too had a “people pleaser,” and look how it turned out.

[Aloha123]

Yup, accepting crumbs and making him feel smothered makes it less likely that he will "choose" you rather than more. Even assuming you are "soulmates destined to be together", the only chance you have for this to come to fruition is to walk away and let the cards fall where they may.

[finna]

Yup, accepting crumbs and making him feel smothered makes it less likely that he will "choose" you rather than more. Even assuming you are "soulmates destined to be together", the only chance you have for this to come to fruition is to walk away and let the cards fall where they may.

 

How is it you think I am making him feel smothered?

[PhoenixRising8]

You cheapen your worth when you settle for what he’s offering now - dwindling communication, less verbal and physical affection, and no more future promises. If you stay, it’s all downhill from here. Listen to LKK. She too had a “people pleaser,” and look how it turned out.

 

My xMM didn't offer dwindling communication, personal contact, affection and continued to plan for our future and look at the end result. One evening, a few months ago I commented that my new casual dining table can accommodate 2 more chairs and maybe I should get them. He said no reason to as the only time I would need them is when his kids came to visit but then we could just use the dining room. He was thinking about what we would need and how we could accommodate when we lived together. One of the reasons I didn't get rid of the queen mattress I have no use for ... his parents' bedroom suite has a queen bed.

 

But asaysno doesn't comment on anything I post. She either skips over my posts or they hit home and she doesn't know how to respond. I still believe I had good reason for hope but it didn't come to pass. And the reason is pretty simple - men don't leave their wives and when they do, it's because they were thrown out. And they seem to work hard to go back. OP will learn the hard way as most OW do.

[finna]

So even your mutual friends think you should no longer be the OW. I agree. I think the ONLY shot you have at getting him to possibly leave (which is a VERY dubious good) is for you to tell him you need to do the right thing for you both and say goodbye unless and until his marriage ends. Give him a chance to miss you and think about you. And honestly...also make yourself worth marrying. It’s hypocritical, but most men who are cheating would never marry a woman who also cheats. Double standard. Remember when he said something like “what does it say about you that you like me?” Don’t argue with me here. I know you’re going to say it’s self-loathing, and it is - but it’s not ALL that. You cheapen your worth when you settle for what he’s offering now - dwindling communication, less verbal and physical affection, and no more future promises. If you stay, it’s all downhill from here. Listen to LKK. She too had a “people pleaser,” and look how it turned out.

 

Just to clarify - in this case you are defining cheating as me as a single person being with a MM? I’m not sure I ever want to be married again, but yes, I’d like to be in a legit relationship with him. When we were together last week he told me he misses me “all the time”, but what you are talking about is the missing that comes with being unavailable or NC or...?

[finna]

My xMM didn't offer dwindling communication, personal contact, affection and continued to plan for our future and look at the end result. One evening, a few months ago I commented that my new casual dining table can accommodate 2 more chairs and maybe I should get them. He said no reason to as the only time I would need them is when his kids came to visit but then we could just use the dining room. He was thinking about what we would need and how we could accommodate when we lived together. One of the reasons I didn't get rid of the queen mattress I have no use for ... his parents' bedroom suite has a queen bed.

 

But asaysno doesn't comment on anything I post. She either skips over my posts or they hit home and she doesn't know how to respond. I still believe I had good reason for hope but it didn't come to pass. And the reason is pretty simple - men don't leave their wives and when they do, it's because they were thrown out. And they seem to work hard to go back. OP will learn the hard way as most OW do.

 

I’m pretty sure this is already the hard way - it sucks, no doubt about it. Yes, our stories do have a fair amount in common, and I read and consider everything you post - thank you for the insight.

[BaileyB]

For what it is worth these individuals have known us both very well for a long time... it’s not that I was newly introduced to them... not that it really matters at this point.

 

They were aware that you were sleeping with each other, that his wife was clueless, and that you were patiently waiting for the demise of his marriage so that you could assume your rightful place as his “future partner...”

 

It doesn’t matter. Im not a man, but I would say that some men love to brag about certain things including sex. I’m sure he thought he was a big man - look at this woman who I have snowed into having sex with me with a few promises... high fives all around.

[heartwhole2]

I tend to believe it wasn't really bragging but a combination of believing his own lies and wanting to make the coworker socializing situation less complicated for himself. He can compartmentalize the affair because his home life is pretty separate from work but he couldn't compartmentalize the affair from work.

[BaileyB]

I tend to believe it wasn't really bragging but a combination of believing his own lies and wanting to make the coworker socializing situation less complicated for himself. He can compartmentalize the affair because his home life is pretty separate from work but he couldn't compartmentalize the affair from work.

 

I would like to agree too. Still, it would make me very uncomfortable to be wondering what was being said when we left.

[sagamore]

Just to clarify - in this case you are defining cheating as me as a single person being with a MM? I’m not sure I ever want to be married again, but yes, I’d like to be in a legit relationship with him. When we were together last week he told me he misses me “all the time”, but what you are talking about is the missing that comes with being unavailable or NC or...?

 

Yes. In his mind you are cheating with him. Even if you’re now single.

 

And when he says he “misses you all the time”...whatever. Not really. He knows you are waiting for him. Really missing you is when you’re no longer available. He can’t have you whenever he wants. It may force him to think about some things. Still likely will not work out, but it’s your best shot.

[heartwhole2]

How is it you think I am making him feel smothered?

 

I wouldn't say smothered, but I'd say you've made it clear through your actions that you will be his plan B as long as it takes him to decide. And since he can take you for granted and continue the affair as long as he wants, he has no incentive to end his marriage to be with you.

 

I'm certainly not one to counsel you on how to manipulate a married man into being with you, but I do think it's Psychology 101 that we want what we can't have and think isn't a sure thing. I can't tell you how fast on DDay my husband did an about-face when I wasn't "put in my place" by their supposed great love story. I was just like, great, go be with her, I can find someone else, and he looked so shocked and confused, and then the backpedaling began. I think he thought I would be all, "Alas, but what about our family, shouldn't we give it a try?" and he'd be all, "Yes, I will be Mr. Amazing Martyr Pants and deign to stay married to you because I'm so selfless, until such a time when I can figure out which one of you I love more."

 

Making it clear that you will tolerate being in a love triangle is not a good strategy for getting out of that love triangle.

[PhoenixRising8]

I’m pretty sure this is already the hard way - it sucks, no doubt about it. Yes, our stories do have a fair amount in common, and I read and consider everything you post - thank you for the insight.

 

It gets A LOT worse if you stick around, especially in light of the diminished 'relationship' he's offered in the last 2 months. It shows he has to do not a lot to keep you and remain married.

 

If I had it to do all over again, when xMM told BS last September he wanted to separate but didn't leave right away, I would tell him he should take the time he needs to figure it all out WITHOUT me in the mix. I would have been both selfless and selfish at the same time. Selfless because I would have shown I wanted him to do what was right for him and he can only figure that out without me. Selfish because I would have stood a better chance of him leaving because if he decided to do so, it would be because he missed me and realized it was me he wanted to be with. Selfish because I would have shown him I wasn't going to take half measures from him and enable his cake eating. And selfish because I would have avoided 6 months of angst so that I could have started the healing process and be in a better place than I am today.

 

Don't do what I did. I, and his BS, enabled his bad behaviour and cake eating. Don't take his diminished offerings and be afraid to walk away for fear of losing him. If you lose him by walking away, he didn't love you enough to begin with and you benefit from starting the recovery process that much sooner.

[Aloha123]

How is it you think I am making him feel smothered?

 

Trust me, our desperation and preoccupation with them shows itself in subtle ways that they can definitely pick up on, and that in turn drives them away even more rather than drawing them closer. It's part of the classic push/pull dance that you are now clearly in the midst of.

I speak from personal experience.

[SpiceCat]

No- she was aware I was taking care of their child a couple of different times.

 

There is no excuse whatsoever to involve an innocent child in the mess you and MM have created.

 

You ignored my question about whether or not you think your son would be proud of you if he were old enough to understand what you and MM were doing. I think you're ignoring me because you know he would not..not even a little bit. I don't think you want to imagine how he would look at you if he knew and understood.

 

I also think that, despite your bravado and your unicorn rainbow posts about wanting happiness for both you and how wonderful he makes you feel and all your justifications for your behavior and for his, you're not very proud of yourself either.

 

I'll echo another poster - WAKE UP. You are hurting people..and not just yourselves. Clear the fog from your brain and walk away from this.

[SpiceCat]

It gets A LOT worse if you stick around, especially in light of the diminished 'relationship' he's offered in the last 2 months. It shows he has to do not a lot to keep you and remain married.

 

If I had it to do all over again, when xMM told BS last September he wanted to separate but didn't leave right away, I would tell him he should take the time he needs to figure it all out WITHOUT me in the mix. I would have been both selfless and selfish at the same time. Selfless because I would have shown I wanted him to do what was right for him and he can only figure that out without me. Selfish because I would have stood a better chance of him leaving because if he decided to do so, it would be because he missed me and realized it was me he wanted to be with. Selfish because I would have shown him I wasn't going to take half measures from him and enable his cake eating. And selfish because I would have avoided 6 months of angst so that I could have started the healing process and be in a better place than I am today.

 

Don't do what I did. I, and his BS, enabled his bad behaviour and cake eating. Don't take his diminished offerings and be afraid to walk away for fear of losing him. If you lose him by walking away, he didn't love you enough to begin with and you benefit from starting the recovery process that much sooner.

 

Kat - you should be proud of this post and of yourself. I only hope OP starts to understand.

[heartwhole2]

I agree with Kat.

 

The thing is, asaysno, you have to mean it or else you'll cave. You currently view him in such a positive light. You are not indignant at his putting you in this situation. You think it's understandable and in fact flattering that he says he misses you so much and seems conflicted. We have been trying to help you see how wrong and unhealthy this situation is for you. Once you do that, rejecting it will come easier.

[Aloha123]

If you are sensing an increasing level of frustration with our responses, it's because we've seen this movie before. I cannot emphasize enough how identical your thread is to the 6 month dialogue (yes, you read that right) we had with poor LiliKitKat. She fought us, tried to explain how her situation was different, argued about how unhappy her mm was with his wife.

And you know what, his words and actions indicated that he was a hell of a lot closer to actually following through and leaving than yours seems to be.

Yes, we recognize that we are all on our own timeline and that the process does not happen overnight (hell for me it took close to a year of reading this thread everyday and I still struggle to move on).

It's just painful to watch from the outside, when the outcome so predictable.

[Amethyst68]

The thing is I don't really see MM as putting OP in any position. IMO this is one scenario where the OW went in eyes open and willingly. Oh there may have been some future faking but she is now aware of it and has admitted to being open to continuing the affair anyway. At some point we all have to take responsibility for our choices in life.

 

I don't think the OP will be persuaded away from her plan off action by a bunch of posts from anonymous strangers the internet, her truth is set in her mind and I could be wrong but I think she will play it out to the end. On the other hand I think it's likely there'll be a DDay so the end could be sooner than expected....

[PhoenixRising8]

Thanks SpiceCat and heartwhole ... I wish I felt the same about myself, but I don't. I had recently ended my marriage and was going through all the drama that entails plus my daughter was moving out of town. My xMM provided the support and companionship I needed. But that was short term thinking. Had I thought more strategically, I would have sucked it up. He either would have come back to me or not but I wouldn't have had to endure 7 months of the anxiety of when is he leaving and the anguish of his going home every night.

 

Aloha, yes 6 months of everyone telling me what everyone is telling asaysno now. Heck this thread is more than 1/2 way to my 103 pages in record time. It's taken less than 3 weeks!

 

Asaysno, if you want what's good for you LONG TERM, next time he says he misses you, loves you or in any way goes beyond the professional, tell him you want and deserve better than a side relationship and that you want to keep it strictly business unless and until he actually leaves his marriage. Even if he does leave, proceed with caution as he may go back OR he may still not be too keen on the long distance thing. That's tough at the best of times, but especially so with a young child in the mix.

[S2B]

Yes- I still think he is extremely selfless - he is always trying to please everyone else - unfortunately to his own detriment, including inability to set some limits and boundaries.

 

This is ridiculous. He isn’t selfless. Heck, she could be in need of “treatment” that she’s in because her husband who is so selfish has been pulling a fast one on her! He’s cheating and she may be going crazy trying to figure out what is going on!

 

That is NOT a man trying to please everyone - THAT is a man trying to please himself!

 

You aren’t seeing him clearly. Maybe he hasn’t hurt you enough...yet. He will.

[S2B]

The thing is I don't really see MM as putting OP in any position. IMO this is one scenario where the OW went in eyes open and willingly. Oh there may have been some future faking but she is now aware of it and has admitted to being open to continuing the affair anyway. At some point we all have to take responsibility for our choices in life.

 

I don't think the OP will be persuaded away from her plan off action by a bunch of posts from anonymous strangers the internet, her truth is set in her mind and I could be wrong but I think she will play it out to the end. On the other hand I think it's likely there'll be a DDay so the end could be sooner than expected....

 

My gut says DDay is the only way this train wreck is going to come to an end.

[S2B]

So he’s been quiet a day and a half . That because he’s connecting with his family - as they are on vacation!

 

Seriously, do NOT respond when he contacts you.

 

He can wait until you have work to do. Even then keep all communication to business only.

 

Start changing the dynamics by sticking only to business... he wanted to focus on his family - so stop distracting him from THAT goal.

Edited June 21, 2019 by S2B

[finna]

Yesterday after getting home he contacted me briefly, and then we talked for a while this morning. It was actually mostly about work stuff as some of our trips are getting cancelled/rescheduled.

 

He has been affectionate and humorous in his communication- and still signing off with “I love yous”. To a certain extent I am experiencing this in a detached observing way - keeping in mind what everyone has said.

[finna]

My gut says DDay is the only way this train wreck is going to come to an end.

 

That might be true. While I am trying to figure out the best path based on all considerations, MM is also making it damn hard by continuing to suggest and schedule future opportunities for us to spend time together. Right now I am not yet in a place where I’ve been able to say no to that.

[lana-banana]

That might be true. While I am trying to figure out the best path based on all considerations, MM is also making it damn hard by continuing to suggest and schedule future opportunities for us to spend time together. Right now I am not yet in a place where I’ve been able to say no to that.

 

But he's not suggesting leaving his wife for you, or being together in the long-term, or having a serious relationship with you. He's just indicating that he is willing to continue the affair for now. He'll probably go back on that at some point for a little while, then resume it again when he feels like it.

 

It seems to me that you are operating from the assumption that he's deciding whether he wants to leave his wife for you. You are thinking about the future in terms of "us being together" or "us not being together". But it's very clear he isn't thinking in those terms. To him it's a matter of "have an affair" or "don't have an affair". Being with you in the long run isn't on his radar.

 

Wouldn't you agree the best path forward involves limiting the pain to everyone involved, yourself included? Why not pursue that path? Ending the affair yourself hurts now, but is a lot easier than his pulling the plug - just look at LKK's thread.