In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[finna]

He explicitly broke things off with you as the girlfriend he was planning a future with when he told you he intended to focus on his marriage. He implicitly told you he was prepared to continue with an affair. Those two options are not mutually exclusive. If you have hope the affair will continue, I doubt you'll be disappointed. If your hope revolves around him ultimately ending up with you, and leaving his wife, I suspect heartbreak is inevitable.

 

I’m not sure what he is wanting or willing to do at this point. We shall see. As far as ending up together - my somewhat perverse take on that right now (stupid feelings) is that we take it one step at a time... if he completely disappeared I would have no hope whatsoever but smart or not, and likely painful, with him conflicted I know he still thinks about me, misses me, has feelings for me, etc.

[PhoenixRising8]

I’m not sure what he is wanting or willing to do at this point. We shall see. As far as ending up together - my somewhat perverse take on that right now (stupid feelings) is that we take it one step at a time... if he completely disappeared I would have no hope whatsoever but smart or not, and likely painful, with him conflicted I know he still thinks about me, misses me, has feelings for me, etc.

 

Ahh yes, those conflicted feelings ... I know them all too well. Problem is that when they start to think about the investment in marriage and family and the cost of ending it, the feelings take a back seat. Security, the known, comfort of home and family, finances are all a higher priority than love. If he's never said he doesn't love her, odds are he does. Even if he's said he doesn't he likely does. And at the very least, he did once. He may love you, but love is only part of the equation and mostly loses out to all the other factors.

[heartwhole2]

So much of life is our perspective. You can see the same situation from different viewpoints. You can train yourself to see things from a viewpoint that values and supports emotional health and personal integrity. Here are some points to consider:

 

-He's willing to spend weeks vacationing with his family

-He's willing to stop treating you like a lover when he's with BW

-Not feeling like a cheater when he's with BW is more important to him than your desire for loving contact

-He's willing to add a little extra to a business trip to spend time with you

-He's feels bad lying to BW so he tries to lie by omission. (Does he lie by omission to you?)

-He's willing to use travel points for your assignations (a.k.a. sex)

 

You can look at this and be flattered by the part he's carved out for you, or you can be disgusted and disappointed. Those of us not beholden to the love hormones are finding it very difficult to see the flattering/hopeful part.

 

You're thinking that maybe if you hang on he will choose you, but this dance is sustainable for a very long time.

 

We've spent plenty of time analyzing this very classic MM. I'm going to assign you some homework . . . can you come up with a list of your stances and actions as I did for MM above? Look at your actions through the lens of someone trying to make sense of them.

[Amethyst68]

The thing is unless one of you gets a new job he isn't going to be able to disappear. You've made it obvious you're going to continue on this path so I all I can say is I hope we're all not having this sane conversation in 5 years time.

[Turning point]

MM suggested that I fly down after they had departed and we would drive back together and take the scenic route. He asked me which hotels I want to stay at and booked those.

 

This all sounds so seedy. Why do allow someone to so obviously use you this way? Are you aware of how transparent this "road trip" is to the other business people and how it enhances his reputation among male peers at the expense of your own?

 

I think it's highly unlikely his wife is in the dark about you but, given how carefully caged the MM has you, she would also not seee you as any kind of threat.

[finna]

Heartwhole - I have had such a list for a couple of months now... it’s in my phone notes and I take it out and look at it when I’m trying to be strong and/or get angry. So far I’ve had limited success. I guess I see his faults and mistakes and love him anyway. Yes- this has already caused me a lot of heartbreak and will continue to do so until the hope is gone.

 

As I mentioned - he could very well crush it during the next week or so if he cancels our plans. For me, that would be action to show he has moved on irrespective of any talk. If we do spend the time together then we have the opportunity to talk and I can observe his behavior and I will know where his head is at- whether it’s something I want to hear/see or not.

[finna]

This all sounds so seedy. Why do allow someone to so obviously use you this way? ....

 

Would you see it as being “used” if there were no sex? I am trying to understand your perspective.

 

What makes you think anyone in the business is aware of the “road trip” aspect? That’s all happening over a weekend on our own time / expense other than when we are actually in meetings with the consultant and team for one day at the beginning of the work week. Nobody but our respective bosses would know or care about the meeting.

 

Tell me more about what you think his wife knows beyond my status as a business colleague? She knows I exist and that I am a member of the travel team.

Edited July 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[heartwhole2]

When you're attached to someone you don't generally move on without making a conscious choice to do so, as you yourself are experiencing. Make sure your bar is not "Does he still feel loving towards me and like having sex with me?" because if so, this will continue for a long, long time. His feelings and posturing are likely to stay the same at this point (loving/wanting you, pulling back, re-engaging, etc.) until something external (you or a DDay) makes the status quo impossible.

[pepperbird]

H Yes- this has already caused me a lot of heartbreak and will continue to do so until the hope is gone.

 

 

It's the hope that will do one in. It's one of the evils Pandora should have kept the lid on.

[finna]

The thing is unless one of you gets a new job he isn't going to be able to disappear. You've made it obvious you're going to continue on this path so I all I can say is I hope we're all not having this sane conversation in 5 years time.

 

He can’t completely disappear but he does have the choice to focus on business functions that do not involve me. He could elect to stop all personal communication and contact if he wished to... we might occasionally see each other but it could be extremely limited compared to now.

 

That may happen- after this summer if he does change focus I would only see him one other time this year, and even that could get cancelled. I guess my point is that he can structure business and life to have our paths diverge if he wishes... he wouldn’t even have to engage in any conflict with me to do it as it would be for legitimate business priorities and purposes... an easy out for him if he wishes to take it.

[finna]

When you're attached to someone you don't generally move on without making a conscious choice to do so, as you yourself are experiencing.....

 

Yes- I know I have not yet been able to make that choice but I’m not sure where he is at with his own. I doubt that he would be engaging in even this regular casual conversation with me if he was angry or had stopped caring, but I also think he has been in a place where he has felt a lot of guilt about some of his actions. I don’t really know what to expect with that - whether the guilt will drive a pullback to completely platonic behavior or if it will be cyclical or something he deals with a different way; this is new territory for me.

Edited July 3, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[finna]

It's the hope that will do one in. It's one of the evils Pandora should have kept the lid on.

 

As I mentioned a while back - I do have a timeline in place for when this absolutely must be figured out one way or another due to logistics in my life. Granted, it is long... about another year and a half but I will need to be working towards practical choices and plans well before the deadline. That doesn’t mean of course that all hope will get squashed - I’m not sure that’s something I can stop feeling, but there will be a lot of mechanisms in place for me to move on if it appears MM and I are done or stuck in the current status quo.

[heartwhole2]

Relationships should involve two people who say what they mean and mean what they say.

 

The sign that he is leaving his marriage is . . . leaving his marriage. Even when the MM is a fairly nice person, having a secret girlfriend who hangs on his every word and action as evidence that he might choose her in the end really goes to his head. He thinks his sh*t doesn't stink because that's the image the OW is mirroring, so he gets sh*ttier in all areas of his life. He doesn't even see it because he's just being a good family man and a conflicted lover in his mind. In reality he's taking time and energy away from his family and risking the break-up of that family, and he's giving the OW false hope.

 

I guess my point is that he can structure business and life to have our paths diverge if he wishes... he wouldn’t even have to engage in any conflict with me to do it as it would be for legitimate business priorities and purposes... an easy out for him if he wishes to take it.

 

Here it comes down to perspective again. Is it flattering/a sign for hope that he's still choosing to have you in his life sometimes, with pull-backs that he doesn't explain? He could just 100% dump you so it's hopeful that he only half-dumped you? Or shall we focus on what he has said (focusing on his family, concerns about your relationship, see if the marriage can work out for child) and the ways he has backed that up (pulling back, long periods of platonic contact, no sex on anniversary, etc.)?

 

You've known women who were broken up with or who never got a clarification about the state of a relationship from a guy, right? But he kept sleeping with her and showing her affection for some period of time after. Affair or not, this is not that unusual. You don't stop loving and being attracted to someone just because you decided the relationship is a dead-end.

[elaine567]

Make sure your bar is not "Does he still feel loving towards me and like having sex with me?" because if so, this will continue for a long, long time. His feelings and posturing are likely to stay the same at this point (loving/wanting you, pulling back, re-engaging, etc.) until something external (you or a DDay) makes the status quo impossible.

 

Agreed.

OP.

Women can be pretty good at the "He likes me, he smiles a lot at me, he says nice things about me, he thinks I am amazing, he wants to have sex with me, THEREFORE he loves me".

Sadly, not always true and especially not true when he is a married man with a child who when given a stark choice, chose his wife and child.

I am sure he loves the travelling, the holiday aspect of your time together, he will love the extra sex, he will love the companionship, but as for making this a permanent and monogamous relationship, I guess no chance.

OW forever and a day, maybe, maybe not. It is still very early doors.

 

BTW "loving/wanting you, pulling back, re-engaging, etc." is very very common and why most OWs on here are in a kind of permanent emotional turmoil.

He loves me I am in heaven.

He has pulled back what does that mean? Are we over? We seem to be over...

OMG he has contacted me, he loves me, I am in heaven...

Oh no, he has pulled back...

ad infinitum.

 

Mostly to do with sex IMO.

Horny, "He loves me",

Satisfied, guilt ensues, he pulls back.

Horny again = in love...

Satisfied. Cools off.

 

Note the "horny" sending of indecent images to you Saturday night, then the "satisfied" 3 days no contact...

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

I would be lying if I said I didn’t miss him and very much want to spend time with him... we have a fantastic time when we are together.

 

It's not "real" though. Time with you is just an escape from the drudgery of everyday life. If you were together, the two of you would also have that drudgery, not just the vacation life you have when you spend time together. And, in fact, the drudgery would be worse because he'd have an angry ex and alimony and child support dragging him down (with resentment).

[Amethyst68]

Be prepared for love bombing and venting about how it drove him mad being with his BW for do long. Please don't take it for more than is.

 

I believe your MM probably wouldn't be lying, as someone who simply isn't used to spending so much uninterrupted time with wife and son he may have passed enjoyed and went to stressed, especially hiding his secret. Most people I know feel a little like this after a long family holiday. I love my family dearly but being with them daily for over 3 weeks sounds like heaven going in and hell coming out, trust me I know from experience. I have a friend who has to have a night out with the girls to vent and decompress over a glass of wine.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say that if he starts telling you how awful it was please don't take it as a sign he's packing his bags. Remember actions over words (for both of you).

[finna]

Be prepared for love bombing and venting about how it drove him mad being with his BW for do long. Please don't take it for more than is......

 

I hear you. When I was a kid my stepdad was very attentive and fun on vacations but after a week he couldn’t wait to get back to work - he really loved his job.

 

When I’ve asked MM about his day lately he generally says “good” or “great” so I don’t know if there will be any complaining. Another nine days to go to see where we are at unless he says or does something definitive before that.

Edited July 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[darkbloom]

I can’t believe you are going to wait 9 days for him to come back and define your relationship again. 9 days is 216 hours of your life you will never get back and you are not in control of.

[Crazelnut]

Yes- I know I have not yet been able to make that choice but I’m not sure where he is at with his own. I doubt that he would be engaging in even this regular casual conversation with me if he was angry or had stopped caring, but I also think he has been in a place where he has felt a lot of guilt about some of his actions. I don’t really know what to expect with that - whether the guilt will drive a pullback to completely platonic behavior or if it will be cyclical or something he deals with a different way; this is new territory for me.

 

He this. He that. He feels. He thinks. He, he, he. Good lord! You have given him complete control of your life. Can you see that? darkbloom nailed it. You are sitting around waiting on a married man to decide what will happen in YOUR life. That is messed up.

[Amethyst68]

On another matter as a Finance Officer with many years experience I'm constantly surprised when you describe your company practices when it comes to travel. There seems to be no regulation at all. You get to add additional days, extra locations, no-one seems to question when you and MM consistently travel together throughout these changes. It's just never queried.

 

In the organisation I work for all of these things would be looked at especially if they were happening consistently over a period of time. You and MM seem to be able to suit yourselves, it just seems strange.

[finna]

I can’t believe you are going to wait 9 days for him to come back and define your relationship again. 9 days is 216 hours of your life you will never get back and you are not in control of.

 

I may actually see him today in a semi-work setting (coffee shop meeting with another colleague). We may have a few minutes to talk. I think I will get a sense of the state of things regardless. I’m assuming you are saying the alternative to me waiting to see what happens is that I end it. I’m not ready to do that so if you have other alternatives at this point please share.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

On another matter as a Finance Officer with many years experience I'm constantly surprised when you describe your company practices when it comes to travel. There seems to be no regulation at all. You get to add additional days, extra locations, no-one seems to question when you and MM consistently travel together throughout these changes. It's just never queried.

 

In the organisation I work for all of these things would be looked at especially if they were happening consistently over a period of time. You and MM seem to be able to suit yourselves, it just seems strange.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Seems super loosy-goosy! I'm very curious what type of work/industry this is.

[lana-banana]

Would you see it as being “used” if there were no sex? I am trying to understand your perspective.

 

It always blows my mind when folks insist their AP must truly love them and care for them because they aren't having sex. Think about it for just ten seconds. I am a happily married lady, but if you told me I could also carry on with a guy who was completely obsessed with me; offered all the fun and excitement and infatuation of a new relationship with ZERO of the day-to-day talk about bills, chores, etc; hung on my every word in conversation; took me to restaurants and went on romantic dates, but never had to go to the DMV or the doctor; adored me and constantly pumped up my ego; and was only around when I wanted him to be around---and I could leave whenever and drop him for however long, and he'd still be waiting when I came back---are you kidding? That sounds amazing. An affair partner is a totally awesome thing to have in your life if you don't care about the damage you do to other people involved.

 

Your entire life revolves around this man. Everything he says, every meeting you have, determines your entire future. And you're willing to wait two entire YEARS for him to decide to put you first even when he's explicitly told you that isn't going to happen. He's not leaving his wife. He's not going to quit engaging in an affair when it suits him. Honestly in this case I don't think he is using you because he's told you this is how things are. You, inexplicably, are fine with it. You're not being used so much as wasting your own life on this man.

 

Tell me more about what you think his wife knows beyond my status as a business colleague? She knows I exist and that I am a member of the travel team.

 

Per your own words, his wife was mentioning your name multiple times while the two of you sat together in a pub (and he repeatedly denied you existed and moved the laptop so she couldn't see, how romantic!). I don't believe in calling anyone a liar, but you are so incredibly selective in your memory and so liberal in your rewriting of your own history that I don't think you're a very reliable narrator. I don't think things are nearly as OK as you seem to think they are, and I don't think anyone---whether it's your company, your son, or your family---is going to just shrug their shoulders and clap for you when sh-t hits the fan.

[SpiceCat]

Hmmm... I thought I was being quite transparent with my emotional investment. To recap for clarity: I love this guy, I’m in love with this guy, and I was ready to build a life with him when our paths seemed aligned. And yes, were our paths to be aligned again I would still at least strongly consider a serious commitment.

 

I believe that you really really want to be nonchalant..but I think you're actually dying inside.

 

Google emotional affair and you'll see why the sex part doesn't matter nearly as much as you think.

 

I asked before and I'll ask again..why do you think so little of yourself that you're willing to accept such behavior from a man who clearly does not love you?

[pepperbird]

op,

when it comes right down to it, it may well be that you ave to accept that if you want to be in a relationship with mm, it will be part time.

 

There will be no real commitments, no real plans, it will be basically take things as they come. If that's what you are looking for-and maybe it is- then this affair may well be enough for you.

 

If it's not, then how long are you willing to wait for him to decide? Why are you even putting the ball in his court anyway? This is YOUR life, not his.