In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[Crazelnut]

Do you realize how many times you've said he's afraid to be alone? And he's conflict avoidant to boot. He really doesn't sound like a prize.

[finna]

Yes. It’s because it’s something he and I have talked about a lot - his insecurities and history in the relationship and why he’s made the decisions he has.

[BaileyB]

The fact is that she stepped out on him long before he ever did with me. She actually got pregnant by another man but lost it. At that time MM took her back because he was afraid to be alone but there have been major trust and other issues ever since.

 

Granted, two wrongs do not make a right, and these are somewhat separate issues. However I think this does add a history and dynamic to the situation that makes it less straightforward than her being completely the innocent victim.

 

Sadly, this just makes the whole situation even more of a train wreck than it already is... Why you would chose to get involved in this marriage is beyond me... My thoughts are with this child, who seems to be the true victim in all of this.

[LivingWaterPlease]

He must really have some sort of strong bond with her to have taken her back after she got pregnant with another man's child. And she stayed, even though she's been with at least one other man.

 

It seems to me there is a very strong bond between this couple, never mind that they also have huge issues.

 

From what you write they seem very committed to staying together come what may.

[elaine567]

I’m at peace with the longterm outcome....

What do you consider to be the "longterm outcome "?

[finna]

From what I understand she immediately confessed and was remorseful. He didn’t want to be alone so forgave her, at least as best as he could. I know there is still some bitterness... and all the issues that enter a relationship when that trust is broken.

[SpiceCat]

Yes. It’s because it’s something he and I have talked about a lot - his insecurities and history in the relationship and why he’s made the decisions he has.

 

Ok but..if he left her, he wouldn't be alone..he would be with you. So there goes that theory.

 

His (and your) justifications for him not leaving her are weak. I know it's incredibly painful to hear but really, what it sounds like is that you're just not that important to him...sorry to be blunt but it's true. Frankly, I disagree with the poster who said he would be upset if you started dating. I think he might be upset for a few days, maybe weeks..and then he'd go find himself a replacement and be happy as a clam while you continue to suffer.

 

He's not doing you any favors by continuing to dangle the fishing line..and you're not doing yourself any favors by continuing to eat worms.

 

I know I sound harsh but it's only because I have been there. It's horrendously painful and I do not envy you right now. There's no happy ending to this story no matter how much you try to convince yourself that there is.

 

You can feel the pain now, or you can prolong it and feel it later..but you will feel it. I hope you have a strong support system..you will need it.

[SpiceCat]

From what I understand she immediately confessed and was remorseful. He didn’t want to be alone so forgave her, at least as best as he could. I know there is still some bitterness... and all the issues that enter a relationship when that trust is broken.

 

If you ever got into a real relationship with him, there would be no trust. You already know he's a cheater..he already knows you're willing to be with a married man.

[PhoenixRising8]

OP, with your latest revelation of his wife's infidelity, there are two possibilities (because you really don't know if it's fact or fiction):

 

Scenario 1 - She did cheat on him and lost the OM's unborn child. He decided on a revenge affair thinking he would even the score and rid himself of some of the bitterness. Maybe he didn't consciously set out for revenge but subconsciously, I'd be willing to bet that was a factor. Do you really think he would leave the mother of his child, the one who cheated on him but he decided to stay with her nonetheless, for a woman who has shown she will be a willing partner in an extramarital affair? Trading in his current unfaithful wife is messy and costly, not to mention the logistics of a long distance R with you. He's already married to a woman, the mother of his child, who will cheat. The grass isn't greener on the other side and better the devil you know...

 

There is obviously some strong connection, because even with the soft landing (you), where he wouldn't be alone, he is choosing to work on his marriage, celebrate his anniversary, tell you it's over and then see you with no return to the romantic overtures.

 

Scenario 2 - She didn't cheat on him. It was a tale he spun to gain sympathy from his 'friend' so that she would be more willing to bed him.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter. He's had his escape. He has recharged his batteries and he is refocused on home and hearth. There's nothing left to see here folks.

 

As a footnote, my understanding is that statistically, women are more likely to forgive infidelity whereas that tends to be one thing men have a much harder time with. If he has stayed with her, I doubt he will be leaving.

 

OP, I have the impression that you keep giving more information that you think will lead people to the conclusion you would like to hear. I empathize because I did this too. I'd be surprised if anyone on this board will see it your way.

Edited June 4, 2019 by LilKatKat

[DKT3]

Granted, two wrongs do not make a right, and these are somewhat separate issues. However I think this does add a history and dynamic to the situation that makes it less straightforward than her being completely the innocent victim.

 

I said I was done, but this one is common. Honestly, I simply don't believe this. This is upping the ante here.

 

First of how could he be sure it wasn't his kid...oh of course the ole we weren't having sex. Secondly, if true you would have mentioned this way earlier when people were hammering you about villaifing his wife.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Daisy2013]

How would you get through it? Only by YOU ending it!

...

If he chooses you he’s got to go through hell to have you. A conflict avoider isn’t gonna go through hell when he can just go back to his “easy life that makes him look good”.

 

TRUTH! My MM was and still is miserable. But, he has said he has to “play house” and be the good guy everyone thinks he is. To leave would mean he gives up his important positions in church and the accolades and respect that goes with it. So he stays busy and gone from home. It would be too much trouble to leave, he said. It is easier to deal with his misery.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[heartwhole2]

Are you saying that if I were to cheat on my husband, to lie to him and expose him sexually to someone else without his knowledge or consent, that this would be OK because he isn't "innocent"? That he does not deserve honesty or fidelity in our new marriage which I have agreed to stay in because of what he did in the past? And that if anyone stood up for his right to bodily autonomy, that person would be arguing BS? Man, why haven't I have been dragging some third party into my dysfunction so I could use him for sex and ego boosts sooner?

 

I know this isn't what you mean. I'm not going to disappoint myself or cause havoc for an imaginary AP or harm my husband because even if I have a "good enough reason" to do so, that's just not how I'm going to live my life. I know that when you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

 

"She started it!" is just another BS item to add to the list of "stuff cheaters say."

[BaileyB]

How were things at work today? Was it all business? Are you doing ok tonight?

[heartwhole2]

Lampooning aside, I'll explain that my goal in sharing what I've shared throughout your thread isn't to explain that the BW is a better person than you thought so you shouldn't be a party to harming her.

 

Rather my goal to disabuse you of the notion that another person's lack of worthiness excuses our poor treatment of them. I am trying to help you, an OW, when I have been hurt by an OW, because I understand that we are all human. We are all connected. Seeing the humanity in every person is something that blesses me greatly, and I hope it blesses others in return.

 

There is a spectrum of human goodness, and we all fall somewhere on it. Where is the cut-off for seeing the humanity in others? If you're 50% good, I won't do wrong by you, but the person who is only 40% good should look out? If we were to rank BS in terms of how deserving they are of being cheated on, it would be almost unanimous that your MM's BW deserves it more than I did, I'd guess. But the premise itself is a form of victim blaming.

 

It is always helpful to look for the humanity even in your worst enemy. You don't have to embrace them or even forgive them, but you have to recognize that they are human beings who deserve your pity, and that there is a surely a story that explains how they wound up as miserable and dysfunctional as they are. You can add to their sorrows, or you can say, "There but for the grace . . . "

 

We can also see the humanity in your MM, but since you are the one posting here for help, and he is currently harming you, our focus is on the negatives. I have been careful to say that I do believe he's sincere in his feelings for you, and also that I don't think that painting the MM as a calculating predator is useful.

 

Choosing what is good and right isn't easy when our desires feel overwhelming. We hope you will come to see that your desires are leading you toward disaster, and choosing the good and right will lead you toward health and happiness. We're rooting for you.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Ok but..if he left her, he wouldn't be alone..he would be with you. So there goes that theory.

 

 

You can feel the pain now, or you can prolong it and feel it later..but you will feel it. I hope you have a strong support system..you will need it.

 

... the caveats are:

 

1) the longer she defers the pain, the more intense it will be later;

 

2) she could choose to end it now on HER terms rather than later when she may be unceremoniously kicked to the curb/thrown under a bus after a Dday.

[Turning point]

My son has the option to do online schooling and my ex is fine with me taking him out of the country for periods of time.

 

This is so sad. I feel bad for your son that his mother would barter his education for the sake of her own cake eating.

[BaileyB]

This is so sad. I feel bad for your son that his mother would barter his education for the sake of her own cake eating.

 

His education, his friends, his sports, his time with his father and extended family...

[finna]

This is so sad. I feel bad for your son that his mother would barter his education for the sake of her own cake eating.

 

You do take a bitter view. My son has always requested and enjoyed alternative education opportunities and loves traveling and experiencing different cultures, etc. He easily makes friends wherever he goes and picks up new languages with amazing ease. If this future were to happen it would solidify many benefits that we have been working towards (and will continue to do so) regardless of my relationship.

[finna]

How were things at work today? Was it all business? Are you doing ok tonight?

 

It was an interesting day- I posted briefly about it earlier but the quick recap is that it was all business throughout the day- he picked me up, we worked at the office and had lunch, and he dropped me back off at my hotel. We were friendly and had a good time. When he dropped me off he did give me a hug and a quick kiss, then left and went home.

 

We did end up texting throughout the evening- and it had more relationship substance than anything recently... we discussed a lot about what we appreciate about each other and things we would like to do together. I’m not reading anything into it other than observing that the tone was far different than what we have had the last few weeks. I won’t see him again for a couple of days so have a little time to think about what I will say and do at that time.

[Cornputer]

Don't you think you deserve better? A man who actually cherishes you instead of keeping you on the side and going home to his WIFE?

[elaine567]

I get it, there is not much else going on in your life.

You NEED the affection, the love, the ego kibbles...

Like just about every OW, you NEED to keep it coming, as without it you are lost.

You will do just about anything to bask in the glory of his love...

 

Trouble is MM know that, so they end up in a very privileged position.

They are often the type of guy who likes to be in control anyway, so "managing" his OW to do as he wants is child's play.

She becomes the puppet, he becomes the puppeteer, he says "Jump", she says "How high?".

MM may appear weak, conflict avoidant, confused, feckless, etc. but it is amazing how often they seem to get what is best for them...

 

He carries on with his life, his work, his marriage, his kids... he fits her in like a game of squash, whereas her life starts to revolve around his. She becomes preoccupied with the affair. Where is it going? What did he mean? May be I was too harsh, too abrupt, too demanding, is that why he he didn't call when he said he would? If she tries to take charge or get too far above her station a few hours/days/weeks of "stonewalling" usually sorts her out... By the time he picks her up again she is ready to fall into his arms with relief.

She learns to become super accommodating to not rock the boat or knock over the house of cards she has built. She is on a knife edge, he is on a large comfy sofa. She knows she could lose him in a second, he knows she is going nowhere...

 

He continues to just live his life, he may get a few pangs of guilt or he rolls out the pity party every now and again, but basically he has acquired a besotted OW, someone who he finds easy to mould into what he wants.

What's not to like?

[BaileyB]

She knows she could lose him in a second, he knows she is going nowhere...

 

This is it. The sad reality of an extramarital affair. Nobody is that special, and yet... women allow themselves to be in this position all the time because somehow their man is “that special.” Special enough that they are willing and ready to give up their values, their self esteem, their ability for self direction. They seem to convince themselves... with just a little more time, if they are just a little more accommodating, their ship is going to come in... it breaks my heart to see a woman give her power away to a man this way.

Edited June 5, 2019 by BaileyB

[heartwhole2]

It was an interesting day- I posted briefly about it earlier but the quick recap is that it was all business throughout the day- he picked me up, we worked at the office and had lunch, and he dropped me back off at my hotel. We were friendly and had a good time. When he dropped me off he did give me a hug and a quick kiss, then left and went home.

 

We did end up texting throughout the evening- and it had more relationship substance than anything recently... we discussed a lot about what we appreciate about each other and things we would like to do together. I’m not reading anything into it other than observing that the tone was far different than what we have had the last few weeks. I won’t see him again for a couple of days so have a little time to think about what I will say and do at that time.

 

This doesn't seem mysterious to me at all. Logically, he knows that the affair should end. He's said as much. Emotionally, he enjoys having an affair, but then he feels guilty and pulls back. Don't confuse his willingness to cross lines with you with an intention. He's assuaging his guilt by putting parameters on your relationship, pretending it's just friends, and only crossing the line "sometimes."

 

I remember when my first love broke up with me. I did not want the relationship to end. One night we talked for hours on the phone after breaking up. But there was a difference between him having affection and attraction for me and him wanting the kind of relationship I wanted. If he wanted a real relationship with me, he knew how to contact me. Hoping we'd slide back into something if I just didn't complain was not something I would do. 20+ years since breaking up and both of us married now, and I know I could still get this guy to pay attention to me if I wanted. But why would I want something unhealthy in my life? And why would I want to mess with his?

 

Only you can decide what is good enough for you. But be very clear about what he's offering. He's offering an EA that slides into PA from time to time. Then he'll put you back in the EA box when he feels too bad about things. This will continue until you end it or there's a DDay.

[finna]

I appreciate all the thoughts. MM’s wife finished her school session today - which was our original milestone for him separating. Probably not right this minute, but within the next few weeks. That will most likely not be the case at this point as everyone keeps reiterating, however I am seeing some behavior changes from him over the last couple of days that give me a bit of pause. I will likely have a thorough discussion with him in person either this coming Friday or Sunday and will proceed from there.

 

For all those that are going to tell me to take a stand before that - I’m thinking about my options and what I want- now, six months from now, etc. I will do what’s right for me with the information that I have at the time... and part of that information includes a discussion with him regarding intentions and expectations.

[Orokotikki]

You have agency and the ability to make decisions.

If "That will most likely not be the case" it is only because you are deciding it will not be the case.