In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[Mrin]

I do want to give asaysno some credit for coming here all of three days ago. I don't think there's a person on this board who let go of a dream that they had invested heavily in within three days. She hasn't heard much of what she wanted to hear, but she's returned and been open to outside perspectives.

 

Yeah I totally agree. She's taken quite a few broadsides and dealt with them with grace. She hasn't heard much of what I think she was hoping to hear but I think she has heard a lot of things she needed to.

[Turning point]

You do take a bitter view. My son has always requested and enjoyed alternative education opportunities and loves traveling and experiencing different cultures, etc. He easily makes friends wherever he goes and picks up new languages with amazing ease. If this future were to happen it would solidify many benefits that we have been working towards (and will continue to do so) regardless of my relationship.

 

I take the most realistic view based on the evidence. This is not your son speaking - it is you speaking for him and there is no way to know if he has ever really had any choice. He only knows what he has experienced and his experiences are largely decided by the parents.

 

My ex speaks all the time about what my daughter "requests and enjoys" but, a lot of it is blatant lies. Her mother is an extremely controlling person. Your preoccupation with MM and his choices appear to have been placed clearly ahead of your son's nest interest. son. I'd refer you back to the poster would commented that had her boyfriend taken a promotion 500 miles away - that relationship would have ended.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Turning point

[SpiceCat]

@ Bailey & SB2 - did you ever think that you would be quoting me and agreeing with me? I'm thinking no lol.

 

Asaysno, you are me a few months ago. Despite what anyone says, you find another rationalization for him, a different interpretation from the common wisdom, and there is a lot of it here. Just know, you didn't come to this forum because you think it will all work out honky dory. At the very least, subconsciously, you know it won't.

 

And me 3 years ago..welcome to the club sister. Congrats on getting out of it alive!

 

Not sure if this gives you hope or not but my (SINGLE) boyfriend and I are moving in together this weekend. It gets better!

[PhoenixRising8]

And me 3 years ago..welcome to the club sister. Congrats on getting out of it alive!

 

Not sure if this gives you hope or not but my (SINGLE) boyfriend and I are moving in together this weekend. It gets better!

 

Thanks SpiceCat no offence but it’s a club in retrospect I’d prefer I didn’t belong to lol. Not sure how alive I am just yet but getting there. Congratulations on the new, healthier relationship. Gives me hope

[HadMeOverABarrel]

And me 3 years ago..welcome to the club sister. Congrats on getting out of it alive!

 

Not sure if this gives you hope or not but my (SINGLE) boyfriend and I are moving in together this weekend. It gets better!

 

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!:love:

[finna]

If you had a daughter is this what you would encourage her to aspire for/to?

 

Or even your best girlfriend?

 

Specifically to be engaged in an affair? No. However I do encourage people to follow their heart and find their own happiness.

[VSgirl]

OP,

What I say to you comes from my heart. You seem like a very nice woman and you genuinely care about this man, I understand that. But I hope you consider the advice of others here and what I am about to say to you. From your posts, I realize you and this man have a bond. Chemistry. A friendship. I can tell you it would be hard to let go of and in his own twisted way the man probably cares for you. But that shouldn't be enough for you.

 

The man is lying to his wife. He isn't divorced, he is cheating. His wife could be a terrible person, but you don't know because you don't really know her. Lying destroys relationships. Even if this man left her for you, how could you ever trust him to be faithful and honest to you? He seems weak..a strong man would leave a relationship if it wasn't working out. I am not in a relationship with a married man, but leaving that part out of it, he repeatedly lies to you and probably her. He is also very selfish. Life is too short to be with someone who has no considerations for your feelings. He is up and down back and forth..and it is all about him, even if he is "there for you" during select moments.

 

Actions speak louder than words. I don't believe this man is showing he cares with his actions or that a relationship with just you is what he wants. You mentioned you have a child as well..you don't want him to grow up with a stepdad figure and think this kind of behavior is okay. It's one thing for things not to work out with your ex...he may not be the right person for you, but this guy isn't probably either. If he truly has that many issues he needs a counselor or some kind of professional help! Believe in yourself that you deserve better!

 

I am also coming from a place of heartbreak very recently (not a MM but a breakup with someone who I loved very much). I am evaluating myself as well as the relationship and struggling to let go. So please don't think I am trying to judge you. Just know you can care about someone so much but they can be bad for you. I don't want to see someone destroy your self confidence or ruin your faith in finding a loving relationship.

Edited June 6, 2019 by VSgirl
additional info

[finna]

Thank you for your heartfelt words. This would all be a lot easier if it weren’t for feelings.

[elaine567]

So he planned to file for divorce in June when his wife left school yet there was a long planned family vacation booked into July, so how was that really going to play out?

I am sure you were/are hoping he would have ended it asap so that his "happy family" holiday was postponed/cancelled

However if you stick around you are going to have to get used to all of that.

[BaileyB]

Specifically to be engaged in an affair? No. However I do encourage people to follow their heart and find their own happiness.

 

Yeah, but are you actually happy? And, do you have the right to find your happiness at someone else’s expense?

[Starswillshine]

This man has shown you who he is. He is a cheater. He isnt one that fell in love and left his wife because he is unable to be with 2 women, he is one that likes to have both and will continue to have both as long as the situations allow.

 

Let's just say eventually, his marriage falls apart. Do you want to spend years of your life with this man only to find out, again, he is the man he has shown you? He cheats on you.... after you have spent years with him, built a life with him, shared your world with him. I know right now, it feels that is all you want, but realize this isnt a good investment. Get out while you can. Or be like I was... nearly stuck. 4 kids. 20 years.... now THAT is hard to get out of. Especially given I was a SAHM. But I saw the writing on the wall. I knew this OW would go and there would be others. As much begging and pleading that he was a different man now, I knew there was no way to ever trust that. And I knew this was who he was. He would never be satisfied with one woman. And he no desire to be satisfied with just one woman.

[finna]

So he planned to file for divorce in June when his wife left school yet there was a long planned family vacation booked into July, so how was that really going to play out?

I am sure you were/are hoping he would have ended it asap so that his "happy family" holiday was postponed/cancelled

However if you stick around you are going to have to get used to all of that.

 

Yes- it is with extended family so if he had stuck to the timeline not necessarily everyone would have gone. It is certainly a consideration regarding priorities when it comes to things like vacations.

[Orokotikki]

And when she's done with school there will be likely new job searching - and after she is making the bucks, "Hey maybe this married lifestyle isn't so bad after all, why cripple my family financially?" oh and of course "He has to put his kids first" ;-)

[Bittersweetie]

Specifically to be engaged in an affair? No. However I do encourage people to follow their heart and find their own happiness.

 

One of my main takeaways from my affair was that I had every right to my own happiness...but not at someone else's expense.

 

You are pursuing your happiness at MM's wife's expense. It doesn't matter if his wife is Mother Theresa Part Two or Most Evil Lady on the Planet. By continuing to pursue a relationship with this man because it makes you happy, and give him more chances to cheat, your actions are at her expense. And is that the kind of person you want to be?

 

Often to OW/MW I suggest a period of true NC. Not to stick it to the MM, not to force them into a decision...it's for YOU. A quiet period of time so that you can move from emotional to practical, to be able to learn and see what the best choice for YOU is moving forward, and how to get there in the most authentic and healthy way. A period of time for you to build your strength.

 

This NC doesn't have to be forever...maybe six months to give you time to decide what will be best for you. Have you ever had a work problem that you can't figure out, so you go for a walk or drive outside the office...and on that walk you think of a solution? It's a similar thing...step away from the immediate environment, and the mind can open. Step away from MM for a time so that your mind can figure out what the best and most healthy path is for you.

[PhoenixRising8]

What Orokotikki said.

 

OP with every new revelation, there is more circumstantial evidence to suggest he actually had no real intent to leave. Here’s why I say that:

 

He had a long-planned vacation with extended family in July, making his intent to leave the marriage in June not plausible. Why? If he is conflict avoidant (and all signs thus far suggest he is) he could not let his wife and child go without him and announce a separation. He would end up the bad guy because he left before a long-planned vacation and in the process would put a damper on the enjoyment of the vacation, not just for his wife and child but also the extended family who would be there helping her pick up the pieces where they expected to have fun. Conversely, if he went and the wife and child didn’t, his vacation would be spent answering questions and feeling guilty he had deprived BS and son of a vacation. This would indeed make him the bad guy. That was never going to happen. If he had truly thought he would leave, he would have initially said he would do so after the vacation. That would have been a much more plausible timeline.

 

Instead, weeks before his timeline to leave arrived, he actually broke up with you. He knew he had not just the vacation, but also the anniversary in June, which he is celebrating with her. He breaks up with you so he has separated work wife from real wife as BS and son are travelling to see him while he is on business as that makes compartmentalization that much easier. Except he doesn’t necessarily want to give up his mistress so while he broke up with you a few weeks ago, he is now testing the waters to see if you will stay anyway. When they leave, I’m willing to bet he will tell you the celebration was hollow and he realized it was you he wanted to be with, but had to go through the motions to make sure. He will likely tell you that after the vacation, he will start the process to leave. You will pick up where you left off. I will be very happy for you if you update us and tell me I was wrong.

 

Unless I miss my guess, after the vacation, it will be exactly as Orokotikki said. Here is the litany of reasons you will get for the goalpost moving again and again:

 

1. She has to find a job

2. When she finds a job, she will need time to settle in without the upheaval of a separation

3. The son is starting school and needs to get a good footing before he leaves

4. The holidays are coming and he can’t disappoint his son and not be there Christmas morning

 

You will discuss ad nauseum how putting it off doesn’t make it better and there is no perfect time where the stars align and everyone walks away unscathed. There will always be something that stops him from leaving. He will agree that something will always come up but these are big things, too big for him to ignore and just pull the trigger. You will get frustrated with the never-ending parade of reasons and he will see his fun girlfriend is sounding more like his nagging wife. Better the devil you know … no 5,000 miles to contend with, no costly and messy separation, no devastated son. It finally ends and you sit there (listening to Natalie Imbruglia’s Torn because the words fit so well) trying to figure out how it all went so wrong because the “illusion never changed into something real … I should have seen what was there and not some holy light”

 

Ask me why I say this …. Been there done that. Exactly how it unfolded for me and numerous others on this board.

[heartwhole2]

^^

"What you allow is what will continue."

 

Makes sense to me.

 

 

I sense the struggle in your thinking through all of this. Sometimes you are the person who only got into the affair because he promised he would leave. But sometimes you are the person who was in an affair for four months before he even said leaving was what he wanted. Sometimes you are sympathetic to his wife and her right to autonomy and truth. Sometimes you feel she's manipulating the situation and gaslighting everyone. Sometimes you're rationally waiting to evaluate his actions, and sometimes you're hanging it all on an overpowering feeling of intuition. You're pretty much all over the place, and how could you not be, in a situation like this? 2 + 2 is not equalling 5 so you googled help for figuring this stuff out and wound up here.

 

I doubt that at this point you're going to be motivated by the BW's humanity, and I get that. You're already where you are. I hope you can come to the realization that exiting this nonsense is what's in *your* best interest. If he's going to leave, he's going to leave. Better to let him do all the hard work to make that happen on his own, so he gains the strength and assertiveness he's currently lacking. If you do it for him, you're just the helicopter parent swooping in and not letting the child experience failure.

 

And removing yourself from the situation gives you the clarity Bittersweetie is talking about. Love hormones are powerful stuff. Is a long-distance, blended family relationship with this guy the right choice for you and your son? Subconsciously you might be thinking, "Yeah, well after he leaves her then I can figure that out." But if you really care about him, you won't want him to separate his kid's parents just to see if he's the option you really want. He needs to make that decision because it's what's right for him and his wife and their son without anybody else influencing the scales.

Edited June 6, 2019 by heartwhole2

[PhoenixRising8]

Just for fun, here are the excuses I heard:

 

 

1. I wasn't prepared when I told her I wanted to separate. She wants to talk so I have to talk to her over the next couple of weeks to let her down gently. He then proceeded to do everything possible to get her to chuck him out (overnights at mine one or two times per week, leaving her on her birthday to spend the day with me) but she hung in there, without fuss

2. She's returning to work after being on long term disability for depression and she will need time to settle in without the upheaval of a separation

3. He has to help her sort out her early retirement package because she won't want his help if he leaves. She's never been good with that stuff and it's beneficial to all parties if that can be sorted out

4. The holidays are coming and he can’t do it then and I'm going to be away in any case but January for sure

5. The son is starting a 2 part technical training program and needs to get a good footing before he leaves

6. He has to go on a vacation with BS and BFFs/bosses because it's been in the works for a long time and the BFFs are paying for their flight and accommodation

7. The son just started a new job and needs time to settle in without the upheaval of a separation

7. The daughter can't find a coop placement which she needs to fulfill degree requirements. Can't cause upheaval and emotional upset or she may not land anything and then her degree is at risk

8. He has to get stuff done around the house to make it ready for sale

9. And final straw: he's steeling himself for the conversation but based on the response the first time, he knows he will devastate everyone and he just doesn't know how he will get the nerve.

 

Leaving a lifeless, loveless marriage (his words, not mine) with adult kids proved to be impossible, let alone a small child with 5,000 miles between you in your case.

 

Just as a footnote, Ive seen statistics that say 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Men tend to stay put. Interesting fact: 2 weeks ago, my xH asked me if I would reconcile and our marriage was well and truly dead. No idea why it plays out like this, but it does. They don't leave and when they do, they go back if the wife will allow it.

Edited June 6, 2019 by LilKatKat

[SpiceCat]

Thanks SpiceCat no offence but it’s a club in retrospect I’d prefer I didn’t belong to lol. Not sure how alive I am just yet but getting there. Congratulations on the new, healthier relationship. Gives me hope

 

Thank you! It's not a club I'm proud to belong to either but we did what we did and now we are living with the consequences. We have nobody to blame but ourselves..but that doesn't mean we have to be punished forever.

 

I'm glad to give you hope. I hope the OP is reading and processing this exchange as well. She's in for a rough ride.

[heartwhole2]

So you may think you are waiting on MM to decide (he’s never gonna decide while he’s got BOTH women fulfilling all his needs) - but it’s actually his wife that would be the one to make the decision of the outcome/or change of their marriage - especially when he is a conflict avoiding type.

 

This is likely why OW feel such strong and negative emotions about the BW. It's all her fault for having the power she doesn't know she has and didn't ask for. I legitimately thought my husband told me when he was frustrated about something, just like I did with him. I didn't realize you could not tell someone that something was bothering you and then blame them for not knowing.

 

The MM thinks it's the BW's fault, so of course the OW does too. If the MM believes he's powerless to stand up to the BW, that must be because the BW is some kind of irascible tyrant, right? And he couldn't tell the tyrant that he wants a divorce because she might get mad and collect the alimony she's entitled to by law and have custody of the kids as much as a court deems is in their best interest. Tyrant, tyrant, tyrant. His hands are tied. His only reasonable choice is a passionate love affair with a woman he'd absolutely make his #1 missus if only his actual missus wasn't so all-knowing and all-powerful.

[Turning point]

Why does he get two women while you get 25% of a man in your life? Why?

 

...because an OW benefits from the boundary. She escapes responsibility for relationships by having no claim. The MM as manipulator is far too obvious for an OW to be anything other than a volunteer.

 

The OP's responses all defer to the MM and she takes no ownership. It's like a merry-go-round but the rider fails to recognize their choice to step on and denies any power to step off.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Turning point

[Aloha123]

op,

Do not allow him to treat you in a way that is disrespectful or unkind just because he's married.

 

In short, do not accept treatment form him that you wouldn't if he were single.

 

 

This is something I always marveled at, the way I was wiling to accept the crumbs and neglect and downright emotional abuse at times that I NEVER would have tolerated in a real relationship. I think part of the reason was that the entire foundation was built on nefarious circumstances, like how could I expect to be treated properly in a situation that was so intrinsically improper, so lacking in morals or righteousness. I was like, well Aloha, you knew what you were getting into, what the hell did you expect anyway. But this ultimately kept me stuck, because it led to this bizarre rationalization -- i.e. the relationship has such f-ed up underpinnings, who am I to expect anything "good" or wholesome or healthy from it. So I had zero expectations which just led to complacency with a hollow situation, and it was kind of a vicious downward spiral -- the less I expected, the worse it got, which led me to lower my expectations even more.

[darkbloom]

I can’t believe this thread is at 30 pages in less than a week. This is a sure fire sign that this train is headed for the edge of a cliff with you, MM, and his BW all along for the ride.

 

All of the posters here are survivors of their own runaway trains. They are standing around waving the flags to get you to safety. The question isn’t if this train is going to crash, but when it’s going to crash and if you’re going to be on it when it does.

 

MM do not leave. There is always going to be some excuse from him as to why he can’t leave. This does not end well for you. You’re going to get hurt either way but I encourage you to choose yourself first and to get yourself out of this mess before you get any deeper.

[Aloha123]

@ Bailey & SB2 - did you ever think that you would be quoting me and agreeing with me? I'm thinking no lol.

 

 

Haha -- a true testament to the power of this forum if ever there was one!

[Aloha123]

Just for fun, here are the excuses I heard:

 

 

<SNIP>

 

 

There is one thing to point out here, which is that while the MM is being a moving target here, these "excuses" are actually all valid considerations, all arising from the very legitimate and real fact that he has built and still has an entire life with somebody else! And has obligations that supercede anything we expect of him. So in this sense, the MM is getting his priorities "right" , and we are just the casualties.

Edited June 7, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[anika99]

On sort of a side note...

 

 

It's interesting how a MM/MA spouse is often referred to as "the wife(y) or "the husband/ hubby). It's rarely his wife or her husband.

 

This makes me think that the ow or om doesn't see them as truly a person, more of a concept. The roadblock to them getting what they want, because if it weren't for them and their nagging/ clinging/ helplessness to stand on their own two feet, mm or mw would drop them like a hot potato and go running to the ow or om.

 

I think this "dehumanizing "of them also makes it easier to pretend they either don't exist or won't be hurt.

 

They are real people. they have feelings, thoughts and while they may not be perfect, they sure as heck don't deserve the treatment they're getting. The way the are being treated by their wh/ww shows just how low said unfaithful spouse will stoop to get what they want. This is who they are at a very fundamental level. They didn't cheat because of their spouse. They cheated because of themselves.

 

I know, but the way the BS gets dehumanized and vilified by the cheater and the affair partner is so over the top it's downright comical sometimes.

 

There was a thread several months back by an OW in a love of a lifetime affair. Her MM loved her to the moon and back but he just couldn't leave his marriage because of his child (shocker). He was such a great dad and he couldn't bear the thought of not being with his kid. The OW was certain of his love for her because he ignored his wife so that he could spend every evening talking to the OW on his phone. Well where is his wife in the evenings, posters asked. Oh she's in other rooms taking care of their child, feeding him, bathing him, etc, said the OW. Posters asked her if he's such a great dad then why isn't he helping her take care of the kid? The OW answered (hang onto your seat) because his wife will not allow him to be in the same room with her and the child, lol. Wait, what? He spends all his evenings on the phone with his mistress because his wife won't allow him to even be in the same room his child is in, but he can't leave the marriage because he can't bear the idea of not seeing his kid. The kid that he can't even look at because the wife keeps him sequestered away in a separate room.

 

Most OW also state that their MM is conflict avoidant but they don't seem to fully grasp how big of a problem that is. It's not a small character flaw. It's the flaw that causes them to cheat, and to act out in a passive aggressive manner. They don't want a divorce, that's too much conflict. They don't want to tell the OW that they are never going to get divorced because that will result in drama and too much conflict. They will do whatever it takes to keep everyone in their place so that they can get all their needs met without any discomfort to themselves. It's sickening and I suspect that their childish manipulative behaviour is the reason why some of their wives appear to be so angry and exasperated so much of the time.