In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[Naivewomen]

I have been reading this thread for awhile. The reason to me that you stay in this unfulfilling and unhealthy relationship is because you BELIEVE you will have a difficult time finding another because you claim to not be able to make new friends and build new relationships. Yes, will it be difficult absolutely but for yourself you must BELIEVE in yourself. Believe that you WILL once you heal from this emotional attachment. It is all about you putting the faith and trust into something that can never work. You seem to believe since you divorced that it should be so easy for him. Mm do not think the sameway. They dont leave!!!! Please listen to all your fellow posters here, you are wasting valuable time on an unworthy man. This man does not deserve your love and affection because your love is genuine and his is NOT! He would have already moved that mountain for you and figured out the logistics later. He already showed you the red flags necessary to walk away. So do it now before he leaves you. It will lower your self esteem and hurt you more. Trust everyone on here!

 

I left while he was still WANTING me and that hurts the ego. So make him feel unworthy now of your love and say goodbye. Close this chapter, learn and move forward. Wishing you the very best!

Edited June 7, 2019 by Naivewomen

[heartwhole2]

Love doesn't ask you to be a secret. Love doesn't ask you to compromise your values. Love doesn't violate people's autonomy. Love doesn't look like this.

 

You are obviously a caring and interesting person. You can absolutely broaden your social circle and find other people, healthy people, to connect with.

 

In my experience, the good people are all found doing "good people things." They're picking up litter. They're registering people to vote. They're doing yoga in the park. Find something that inspires you and put yourself out there, and notice what kind of people are around you. The self-absorbed ones are at home screwing up their lives while the good ones are out living their values.

[heartwhole2]

No it won’t... because MM lie to keep the OW in a safe position - for the marriage to continue on.

 

If he's going to leave now, she shouldn't have to ask. This is something he will have already decided and would of course be anxious to share with her.

[PhoenixRising8]

What heartwhole said exactly. When my xMM decided he was going to have that discussion, I didn't have to ask and I didn't pressure. He called me to tell me just before he told his wife he wanted to separate. Look how that turned out in the end anyway.

[pepperbird]

if he cared less about making everybody happy he might be stronger at making assertive decisions.

 

 

Op,

this is where you are falling down.

 

He's not worried about making anyone happy except himself. Making others happy sits on the back burner, unless it's means to an end that benefits him.

 

 

If he really cared about you being happy ( or, for that matter, his wife and child), he would either end things with his wife so he could be with you or he would say to you that he couldn't be there for you in the way you deserve right now so he was going to end your relationship and go no contact.

Does he know how hurtful this is to you? If so, the fact that he isn't making changes is very telling.

[finna]

He started down the road of “I can’t be with you the way you deserve” several weeks ago but then initiated a lot of contact and has been all over the place ever since with his actions / intentions. Do I think he’s leaving his wife right now? No I do not - but for my own sanity I need to know where his head as at. And as much as a lot of folks here don’t think I will get a straight answer, this is something that he has always done for me - when he has had doubts or fears or joys or anything else he has told me when I’ve asked.

 

Now what I and anyone observing has to keep in mind is that when he responds it will be a snapshot in time - what he is thinking and feeling currently. So I will take it with caution.

[SpiceCat]

No it won’t... because MM lie to keep the OW in a safe position - for the marriage to continue on.

 

True, but if anything anyone is telling her here is sinking in at all, she will see that he is gaslighting and future faking. She wouldn't have come here if she didn't realize that something was wrong.

[elaine567]

She wouldn't have come here if she didn't realize that something was wrong.

I guess she came here originally for hope and reassurance.

 

...deep down I still feel peaceful that things are going to work out even if it takes some time...

[Orokotikki]

Make NO mistake about it:

 

The ONLY one he cares about being happy is himself!!!!

 

...although he will use fluffy words to make sure you don’t realize that.

He probably ain't the only one...

[SpiceCat]

I guess she came here originally for hope and reassurance.

 

I have no doubt that things will work out for her eventually..but not with MM.

 

She will get hurt, she will work her way through the pain, and she will come out stronger and happier on the other side. It's up to her how long this process takes though - she has to stop feeling unworthy of a man who treats her properly before she can actually follow any advice from here or anywhere else.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Love doesn't ask you to be a secret. Love doesn't ask you to compromise your values. Love doesn't violate people's autonomy. Love doesn't look like this.

 

You are obviously a caring and interesting person. You can absolutely broaden your social circle and find other people, healthy people, to connect with.

 

In my experience, the good people are all found doing "good people things." They're picking up litter. They're registering people to vote. They're doing yoga in the park. Find something that inspires you and put yourself out there, and notice what kind of people are around you. The self-absorbed ones are at home screwing up their lives while the good ones are out living their values.

 

I love this post!

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I guess she came here originally for hope and reassurance.

 

Elaine, are you a lawyer/barrister? Your comments are always so spot on and nothing gets past you!

[Turning point]

He started down the road of “I can’t be with you the way you deserve” ...

 

This is a warning shot across your bow.

He is making the affair conditional upon you lowering your expectations. Telling you in manipulative pity-party fashion that to be with him you will need to be a person deserving of less.

 

What's your answer? Who do YOU want to be?

[Veronica73]

I have been reading this thread for awhile. The reason to me that you stay in this unfulfilling and unhealthy relationship is because you BELIEVE you will have a difficult time finding another because you claim to not be able to make new friends and build new relationships. Yes, will it be difficult absolutely but for yourself you must BELIEVE in yourself. Believe that you WILL once you heal from this emotional attachment. It is all about you putting the faith and trust into something that can never work. You seem to believe since you divorced that it should be so easy for him. Mm do not think the sameway. They dont leave!!!! Please listen to all your fellow posters here, you are wasting valuable time on an unworthy man. This man does not deserve your love and affection because your love is genuine and his is NOT! He would have already moved that mountain for you and figured out the logistics later. He already showed you the red flags necessary to walk away. So do it now before he leaves you. It will lower your self esteem and hurt you more. Trust everyone on here!

 

I left while he was still WANTING me and that hurts the ego. So make him feel unworthy now of your love and say goodbye. Close this chapter, learn and move forward. Wishing you the very best!

 

I agree with the above. The fact that he stopped telling you that he loves you seems huge to me. He is sending you a message. And he may start to say it again. And then stop again. Manipulating you. If he does this, look up “intermittent reinforcement”. It’s extremely powerful and hard to break free from.

 

Just stop. Get out of it. If he really wants to be with you he’ll leave his wife now that she got her degree, and come to you.

[Amethyst68]

Am I the only one bothered by the timing of this 'serious' talk'? I can see at least 4 outcomes.

 

1 - MM breaks it off completely, unlikely given his behaviour, texts, kisses etc over the recent past. You then have to watch him celebrate his anniversary with his wife knowing that your affair is officially over (although next time you travel together I'd put money on him trying to get you into bed).

 

2 - MM manages to persuade you to keep your relationship but downgraded to a FWB with a little bit of future faking. You then watch him celebrate with his wife knowing he is actively lying to her, that despite all your excuses and explanations here, he's not leaving and he just wants sex while he's away from home.

 

3 - MM tells you he's definitely leaving but just needs time. Again you watch him actively lie to his wife, celebrating his marriage while having sex with someone else. So you now have first hand knowledge just how cold hearted, manipulative and just a plain excellent liar this honest man is. The problem with this one is the deadline can often pushed back again and again.

 

4 - MM tells you he's leaving immediately and actually means it but it's too late to cancel the anniversary visit. So he goes through with it only to drop the bombshell later or maybe even on the trip. See all the above for the issues I'd have with his behaviour.

 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh but you are complicit in his lying and cheating. You seemed to have no problem intruding into another woman's relationship because you've always felt you were going to be together.

 

I'm not getting into whether he'll leave or not, some do, some don't, some say they do but actually get thrown out on discovery and never stop trying to get back. I will say it isn't a high percentage that apparently leave willingly and it's an even lower number who stay with their AP once real life pressures intrude.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

This is a warning shot across your bow.

He is making the affair conditional upon you lowering your expectations. Telling you in manipulative pity-party fashion that to be with him you will need to be a person deserving of less.

 

What's your answer? Who do YOU want to be?

 

Ohhh the number of times I heard these things from xMM, I lost count:

 

I can't give you what you want.

I don't deserve you.

You're such a good person.

Yada yada:rolleyes:

[heartwhole2]

I wouldn't want to be complicit in hurting another person, but I'm most concerned that asaysno gives her MM so much latitude to be a selfish jerk. Complaining about how your wife "insisted" that you had to celebrate your anniversary to OW is not what making other people happy and working on your marriage looks like. That's what being a big old steaming pile of excrement looks like. In what normal marriage does one spouse say, "Nah, I'm not into celebrating anniversaries any more" and the other spouse says, "But I insist! I will manipulate you into doing it anyway because I'm a crazy weirdo who likes celebrating anniversaries!"

 

Don't let him think that's a poor martyr. Your desire to cast him in this role is allowing him to continue misusing everyone in his life. And he thinks, "Poor me, so conflicted, being such a hero celebrating this dreaded anniversary" and you reinforce it for him. He's not a martyr. He's not a hero. He's an unhealthy, self-absorbed, cruel man. He'd rather not look like a jerk than do right by either of you, but here's a tip . . . the way you don't look like a jerk is by not being a jerk. "You understand, honey, don't you? I can't tell people what I've been doing in secret because then they'll think I'm a jerk. So the only solution is to keep doing it in secret . . ."

[heartwhole2]

I'll admit this one hits close to home for me. Ruining our big anniversary is something my husband can never take back. Sure, he's tried a thousand ways to make up for that with gestures and gifts and trips and transforming himself into a much more mature and selfless person, but of course it's not something that can be made up for. It can only be grieved and healed and forgiven.

 

Sometimes I wonder if OW hope that the wounds created by sullying something important will make the BW kick the MM out. Because we all know he's not leaving unless she makes him.

[BaileyB]

This is a warning shot across your bow.

He is making the affair conditional upon you lowering your expectations. Telling you in manipulative pity-party fashion that to be with him you will need to be a person deserving of less.

 

So true. And yet, if he truly loved OP, he would not want her to accept anything less than she deserves - which would require him to let her go and allow herself to find another man who can be everything she wants him to be.

 

The fact that he would continue to stay in this relationship is very selfish when it’s clearly NOT in your best interest.

 

When I met my guy, he had bee separated for two years and signing divorce papers. We dated for a few months and then he decided he needed to get a few things in order (his house, his finances, his relationship with his ex, his son) before he was ready for a serious relationship. He told me that, and suggested that we end it because it wasn’t fair to me to keep dating me if he couldn’t give me what I wanted. I knew in that moment - that he respected me enough not to string me along, and that he cared for me enough to let me go. I also had enough self respect not to stay in a dead end relationship - no matter how much I liked him - if I wanted to find a true partner. A year and a half later, he came back to me and said “I’m ready now, will you meet me for coffee...”

 

Why do I tel this story, because what he is doing is wrong. If he truly loved you, he would want you to find love, happiness, and a man who is able to commit to you and be everything you want. If this is not him, he should be strong enough to let you go... And I hope you, have the self respect to listen to those words and know that they are selfish, manipulative, and meaningless words (as it relates to your desire to be together with him).

[finna]

I wouldn't want to be complicit in hurting another person, but I'm most concerned that asaysno gives her MM so much latitude to be a selfish jerk. Complaining about how your wife "insisted" that you had to celebrate your anniversary to OW is not what making other people happy and working on your marriage looks like.

 

Point of clarification - he wasn’t complaining about celebrating; he mentioned that she wanted to be there for the actual day in the middle of the week, rather than waiting until the weekend when the business trip is concluded.

[heartwhole2]

I also want us all to have agency for ourselves.

 

We want BW to kick MM out so he can be with OW. We want MM to make a choice so OW can be spared her limbo. Doesn't BW respect herself? Doesn't MM love OW?

 

The truth is, OW is responsible for her own limbo. She can exit it at any time. Just like it's not BW's fault that MM is staying in his marriage, it's not MM's fault that OW is staying in the affair.

 

OW is holding a big flattering mirror up to the MM, and he's thinking, "Yeah! I am the cat's meow! And sure, if OW wants to hang around and see if my marriage ends, why wouldn't she want to? I am a serious catch, after all. Can't blame OW for hanging around to see if she can lock down this awesomeness."

[heartwhole2]

Point of clarification - he wasn’t complaining about celebrating; he mentioned that she wanted to be there for the actual day in the middle of the week, rather than waiting until the weekend when the business trip is concluded.

 

You said she was adamant even though [various complications]. It came across as painting her as being unreasonable.

[Naivewomen]

She loves him!! This is why she wants to spend the day with him on their wedding anniversary!! She loves him.. keep repeating that until it sinks in. He will not walk away from that.. its comfort, security, zero chaos and etc. It doesnt matter how much fun he has with you. He will continue to give you less and less of him. He will keep you in your place wanting and desiring him more and more. All of this, is simply part of the thrill for him. The game that has no winners in it. Please spare yourself from this drama. You will not win, do u still need more clarity from him??

[finna]

All relationship stuff aside it is pretty inconvenient to have family staying during the week from a business perspective - from a purely objective view it makes much more sense to take the day(s) as time off rather than trying to juggle both.

[BaileyB]

I can’t imagine anything worse that sitting back, having to watch the man I love celebrate his wedding anniversary with another woman and then go on holiday with his family, all while I’m wishing and hoping for the demise of said marriage and family.

 

I’m just not sure how you make that right within yourself OP. I truly don’t understand how anyone could do that.