In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[BaileyB]

Just remember YOU get to decide what YOU do. Beyond being cordial to the extent required for business, nothing else is required.

 

Exactly. He only has as much power as you give him.

 

And considering that he has made promises and failed to follow-through, I wouldn’t be giving him a lot of trust or control here - he hasn’t earned it.

[DKT3]

I appreciate your thoughts. To be fair - I have witnessed the emotional abuse and instability - many times there have been horrendous fights and very ugly words - so I know it’s not just a story. They are probably in a classic codependent relationship that he has expressed a desire many times to get out of but may not ever. If he does- it needs to be for him of course.

 

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that she may eventually leave him... not due to infidelity as she suspects but doesn’t “know” - but may eventually grow up a bit and realize the incompatibility and misery isn’t worth it. I’m not counting on that as it could take years, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

 

When I found out my wife was cheating I told my mother and her first response was "what did you do that played a role in it" that comment made me very angry because she is my mother and supposed to be on my side. Years down the line I saw that comment in a different light. I went to my mother with an incomplete story, just my version of what the marriage was. That is what you get from MM, his version, what you aren't getting is what he did that caused her to be nasty. Maybe he is a serial cheater, maybe he is emotionally abusive or unavailable. Unless you have been in their home for the length of the marriage you have absolutely no idea outside of what he allowed you to see, I promise you its merely a snapshot, nowhere near the entire picture.

[finna]

Oh absolutely- he has told me many of the things that he has said and done to contribute to the fights and misery. They have been in counseling for years. He has said many times that if not for their son, they would have gone their separate ways a long time ago. I definitely know that it takes two - and only those two will ever know everything that has happened.

 

 

When I found out my wife was cheating I told my mother and her first response was "what did you do that played a role in it" that comment made me very angry because she is my mother and supposed to be on my side. Years down the line I saw that comment in a different light. I went to my mother with an incomplete story, just my version of what the marriage was. That is what you get from MM, his version, what you aren't getting is what he did that caused her to be nasty. Maybe he is a serial cheater, maybe he is emotionally abusive or unavailable. Unless you have been in their home for the length of the marriage you have absolutely no idea outside of what he allowed you to see, I promise you its merely a snapshot, nowhere near the entire picture.

[finna]

Yeah - what I *want* is to spend time with him; have good times like we always do; hang out with our mutual friends; support each other, etc. Not sure yet how to reconcile those desires with his choices.

 

 

Just remember YOU get to decide what YOU do. Beyond being cordial to the extent required for business, nothing else is required.

[FMW]

It's probably not likely you can spend time together, hang out, support each other, etc. without continuing the affair. Which means accepting it's unlikely you'll ever get more than you have now.

 

I hate to see you waste more time with this and get in even deeper. The heartbreak is a bear to recover from.

[DKT3]

Yeah - what I *want* is to spend time with him; have good times like we always do; hang out with our mutual friends; support each other, etc. Not sure yet how to reconcile those desires with his choices.

 

Or why you want that with a known cheater.

 

I get the whole "oh my wife is horrible so I was open to you" business. I think the part that other people dont get is, in time you will simply replace their BS and they will replace you with another other person. Bottom line is, even if his wife is a monster (which I doubt she is) he is handling it in the worst possible way, so it shows you alot about him that you are ignoring because in your head you've created your version of amaz-man.

[finna]

I am not sure how it will go. Even yesterday and today he was texting to check on me (he is with his family this weekend while I am by myself in his city) - in the tone of a concerned friend, although he sent a few very non-platonic memes and videos to make me laugh. He asked how I was doing and I didn’t go into details but just said I was having a rough time. He said several times how sorry he was about that - and then continued to try to cheer me up.

 

If we didn’t care about each other and were generally just jerks I don’t think we would bother. The issue is of course is that my feelings are far beyond that of “friends”.

 

 

It's probably not likely you can spend time together, hang out, support each other, etc. without continuing the affair. Which means accepting it's unlikely you'll ever get more than you have now.

 

I hate to see you waste more time with this and get in even deeper. The heartbreak is a bear to recover from.

[BaileyB]

Why do you want that with a known cheater.

 

Bottom line is, even if his wife is a monster (which I doubt she is) he is handling it in the worst possible way, so it shows you alot about him that you are ignoring because in your head you've created your version of amaz-man.

 

This. ^^

 

For as much as you are realistic in assessing certain aspects of the situation, you are completely ignoring other red flags - to your own detriment. What you want in continuing to be together, go out with friends, and support each other... You want the fantasy to continue, when in truth - the reality of the situation is very different...

[finna]

I don’t think his wife is horrible / a monster and he does not think so either - just that he/she/they have a lot of issues that have been making him / them miserable for a long time.

 

This is the first time that either of us have engaged in an affair- and I can say this with confidence because I have several friends that have known him longer than he has been married, have traveled and spent considerable time with him, etc, and according to everyone until me he has been married to his job more than anything; working 16+ hour days to escape everything else going on.

 

I have no delusions about his faults either- he has many as do we all. However I have also seen what a loving and caring person he is- he tries to take care of everyone, friends included, as best as he can. People view the actions of a MM as very selfish (and I don’t disagree in principle), but in truth this guy is one of the most selfless people I have ever met. I actually think that is one of his issues because he tries to please everyone else rather than fighting for what he really wants.

 

 

Or why you want that with a known cheater.

 

I get the whole "oh my wife is horrible so I was open to you" business. I think the part that other people dont get is, in time you will simply replace their BS and they will replace you with another other person. Bottom line is, even if his wife is a monster (which I doubt she is) he is handling it in the worst possible way, so it shows you alot about him that you are ignoring because in your head you've created your version of amaz-man.

[BaileyB]

I have also seen what a loving and caring person he is- he tries to take care of everyone, friends included, as best as he can. In truth this guy is one of the most selfless people I have ever met. I actually think that is one of his issues because he tries to please everyone else rather than fighting for what he really wants.

 

Perhaps, very true if he is in an unhealthy, very codependent, relationship and he has stayed for longer than he should... It’s also another reason to think that he will not be very successful in actually leaving the relationship, or may be at high risk to go back if he ever does leave the relationship.

 

I’m sure you do have feelings for each other, but nothing you have said indicates that this man is actually interested or ready to leave his wife.

[Mrin]

I'm not sure why this is confusing. As a guy I can tell you with 100% certainty that he wants you for sex and side romance. He will not leave his wife for you. Period.

 

If you really want to see how he feels about you start dating somebody and let him know about it.

[finna]

I didn’t really know too much about co-dependent relationships until I started researching to understand this situation. His wife seems to manipulate with creating drama and crises, often using her health, mental health, and their son as tools. MM responds by spending a lot of time at work and then feeling guilty and trying to be the fixer of all issues. Before we ever got together he would talk about this and how futile it felt- like he had nothing left to give.

 

I suspect he is now overcompensating even further due to his affair guilt and she is enjoying the attention considerably. However, I don’t think it is sustainable so wondering what the fallout will be when he again feels exhausted and hopeless - even if I’m not in the picture.

 

 

Perhaps, very true if he is in an unhealthy, very codependent, relationship and he has stayed for longer than he should... It’s also another reason to think that he will not be very successful in actually leaving the relationship, or may be at high risk to go back if he ever does leave the relationship.

 

I’m sure you do have feelings for each other, but nothing you have said indicates that this man is actually interested or ready to leave his wife.

[finna]

The confusing part is whether and how he wants me in his life at all. I don’t play games well and the thought right now of dating anyone else is sickening to me. I know that probably seems weird, but when he and I made a commitment to each other two months ago I went in with my whole heart and mind, and despite everything am still there.

 

Out of curiosity though, what do you expect would happen if I communicated that I was dating?

 

I'm not sure why this is confusing. As a guy I can tell you with 100% certainty that he wants you for sex and side romance. He will not leave his wife for you. Period.

 

If you really want to see how he feels about you start dating somebody and let him know about it.

[Amethyst68]

What's so confusing about his change in mindset? It's getting close to the supposed deadline he gave you for leaving and since he has no absolutely intention of doing so it's time for the excuses. First the hard no, now he's reeling you back in so you'll settle for the old 'need not time' excuse. It's nothing new.

 

As for his wife, I think she more than suspects hence the determination to be there next week. I have no doubt it's partly to see you together, to see how you interact. By your own admission you can't seem to act professional when you're together anymore so I'm sure it'll cement her suspicions. Have you thought about how you'll feel when you see his family? I don't know if it will phase you, you seem to have no guilt about ripping apart this woman's family. Your posts are all about you and your somehow predetermined love.

 

I'm curious you live 5000 miles away so if he does leave, who's moving? Either way one child is going to be without a parent in their life. If you move with your son, he no longer sees his dad regularly (assuming your allowed to take him). If your MM moves then he's abandoning and deserting his child, and yes I mean exactly that.

 

Finally, what is your company's policy on sexual fraterisation between colleagues. Is this affair something you could lose your job over? Have these hotels and restaurants been put on expenses. If someone reports you for inappropriate behaviour (as his wife, for example may do) what will they find?

[Turning point]

I honestly don't agree that you are in a bad place. You appear to be exactly where you chose to be. This is a pretty easy fix.

 

You entered this affair with lightning speed, immediately discarded your past relationship. In that respect, you were already standing in the window of a burning building and looking for a place to jump. Instead of using the ladder you leaped into the arms of the first person who told you what you wanted to hear. You knew he was married - and yet you didn't consider for one second how this clandestine arrangement regarding his wife spoke to his character? ?????

 

Well, the building is on fire again and this time I think you should use the fire escape and climb down that ladder one step at a time, instead of looking for some quantum leap. You learn as you go - nothing is gained by leaping over life's little steps.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Turning point

[elaine567]

I know that probably seems weird, but when he and I made a commitment to each other two months ago

I went in with my whole heart and mind, and despite everything am still there.

...and that is what the OW usually does...

[DKT3]

The confusing part is whether and how he wants me in his life at all. I don’t play games well and the thought right now of dating anyone else is sickening to me. I know that probably seems weird, but when he and I made a commitment to each other two months ago I went in with my whole heart and mind, and despite everything am still there.

 

Out of curiosity though, what do you expect would happen if I communicated that I was dating?

 

Confusion or delusions? You say you are NOT delusional but he is giving you the answer to your question, it's not the answer you want so you seek another.

 

In my threads I talk about kinda knowing all along about my wifes affair. One day speaking with my brother he said, "you have all the proof you need, now you're just looking for a different answer"

 

We have a couple posters here that started as affairs and turned legitimate relationship, all of those had one thing in common, a man who did what he said he would when he said he would. There was no double talk or mixed messages.

 

Your MM is putting you in a smaller box. The box thing is he puts you in a box pulls you out whenever he wants to play with you then puts you back and goes home to his wife. After some time a combination of things occurr, 1) the wife becomes suspicious 2) the OW wants more. MM then plays mind games, "oh I'm feeling to guilty, you deserve better, I cant give you what you want" and so on. Now the OW is grasping at what ever she can, get in your smaller box, and you do so with a smile. Long story short, he is diminishing your expectations and gaslighting you into being happy about it...this guy is in no way a first time offender, you are in no way his first OW.

[Turning point]

...and that is what the OW usually does...

 

As much as I'd like to fault the MM I think the OP is the architect of this. To be honest, this "commitment to each other" was made in her own head long before they started traveling together. He's just the lucky cake eater who happened to step up to the buffet.

 

I also suspect that on some level the OP prefers the married man and the long distance of the relationship. Her dilemma isn't the affair - it's the mitigation of risk. This affair provides all the safety and excuses she needs to mitigate the risk and responsibility of a real relationship.

 

The Motown song is all wrong. There is a mountain just high enough, and should that fail, plenty of rivers just wide enough, to keep me from you (and by extension, myself.)

[finna]

I have met his family many times before - as I said we were friends first. I most recently saw her about two months ago when they had similarly joined him for the weekend. There were no issues other than that afterwards she asked him if he had noticed that I lost weight and looked more feminine, although she did fake a crisis a few days later so that he had to return home for a couple of days. For what it’s worth, I have been telling him since the beginning he should tell her the truth and allow everyone to deal with the issues accordingly- he thinks it would break her, so he doesn’t.

I

We maintain professional behavior in all business circumstances and our relationship is within the bounds of company policy. We have been more than careful to make sure all expenses, etc, were business necessities and according to protocol. Anything “extra” has been on our own dime.

 

Regarding the distance- business takes us between both destinations regularly and we travel a lot on top of that. We would essentially establish two home bases and see our kids as often or perhaps more than we do now.

 

 

What's so confusing about his change in mindset? It's getting close to the supposed deadline he gave you for leaving and since he has no absolutely intention of doing so it's time for the excuses. First the hard no, now he's reeling you back in so you'll settle for the old 'need not time' excuse. It's nothing new.

 

As for his wife, I think she more than suspects hence the determination to be there next week. I have no doubt it's partly to see you together, to see how you interact. By your own admission you can't seem to act professional when you're together anymore so I'm sure it'll cement her suspicions. Have you thought about how you'll feel when you see his family? I don't know if it will phase you, you seem to have no guilt about ripping apart this woman's family. Your posts are all about you and your somehow predetermined love.

 

I'm curious you live 5000 miles away so if he does leave, who's moving? Either way one child is going to be without a parent in their life. If you move with your son, he no longer sees his dad regularly (assuming your allowed to take him). If your MM moves then he's abandoning and deserting his child, and yes I mean exactly that.

 

Finally, what is your company's policy on sexual fraterisation between colleagues. Is this affair something you could lose your job over? Have these hotels and restaurants been put on expenses. If someone reports you for inappropriate behaviour (as his wife, for example may do) what will they find?

[finna]

That is an interesting perspective. As I’ve mentioned, part of the reason I’ve posted is to get some clarity on my next steps. Your information has helped a lot. Thank you.

 

 

Confusion or delusions? You say you are NOT delusional but he is giving you the answer to your question, it's not the answer you want so you seek another.

 

In my threads I talk about kinda knowing all along about my wifes affair. One day speaking with my brother he said, "you have all the proof you need, now you're just looking for a different answer"

 

We have a couple posters here that started as affairs and turned legitimate relationship, all of those had one thing in common, a man who did what he said he would when he said he would. There was no double talk or mixed messages.

 

Your MM is putting you in a smaller box. The box thing is he puts you in a box pulls you out whenever he wants to play with you then puts you back and goes home to his wife. After some time a combination of things occurr, 1) the wife becomes suspicious 2) the OW wants more. MM then plays mind games, "oh I'm feeling to guilty, you deserve better, I cant give you what you want" and so on. Now the OW is grasping at what ever she can, get in your smaller box, and you do so with a smile. Long story short, he is diminishing your expectations and gaslighting you into being happy about it...this guy is in no way a first time offender, you are in no way his first OW.

[finna]

Well if knowing someone for a couple of years, being close friends for several months, and then starting a relationship is “lightning speed” then I am guilty.

 

I like your analogy though.

 

 

I honestly don't agree that you are in a bad place. You appear to be exactly where you chose to be. This is a pretty easy fix.

 

You entered this affair with lightning speed, immediately discarded your past relationship. In that respect, you were already standing in the window of a burning building and looking for a place to jump. Instead of using the ladder you leaped into the arms of the first person who told you what you wanted to hear. You knew he was married - and yet you didn't consider for one second how this clandestine arrangement regarding his wife spoke to his character? ?????

 

Well, the building is on fire again and this time I think you should use the fire escape and climb down that ladder one step at a time, instead of looking for some quantum leap. You learn as you go - nothing is gained by leaping over life's little steps.

[Turning point]

I have met his family many times before - as I said we were friends first.

 

Wow. ... and you engaged in this affair anyway?

 

To a previous poster's comments about gaslighting, - friends don't do this to a friends family. As much as these married men gaslight their OW to keep them in their place, the OW typically enters the affair with gaslighting of her own. The classic "we're just friends" lie.

 

Looking at this from the window of a plane above - you are not, and never were a friend to him, or the people around him. The entire basis of your assumptions about why the two of you are together is a step by step rewrite of this history.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Turning point

[elaine567]

I have been telling him since the beginning he should tell her the truth and allow everyone to deal with the issues accordingly- he thinks it would break her, so he doesn’t.

 

Are you crazy?

Of course he doesn't want to do that, why would he?

[finna]

I can see where you might make those assumptions, but to be honest I was in a “take things one day at a time” frame of mind for the first several months of our relationship. He eventually told me I was the love of his life, that he wanted to spend the rest of his life living with me exclusively as partners, friends, and lovers. I was very careful to ask him exactly what he meant and wanted before either getting my hopes up or making the same commitment... which happened two months ago.

 

I very much want him to be available- we had the logistics of the relationship worked out so that we would not be spending much if any time apart. What I was looking forward to most was normalcy- evenings at home, family events, ‘normal’ relationship challenges, etc. We have bucket lists of things we want to do with our kids as a family, as well as hopes and dreams for us. No- what I want above all else is a normalized relationship.

 

 

As much as I'd like to fault the MM I think the OP is the architect of this. To be honest, this "commitment to each other" was made in her own head long before they started traveling together. He's just the lucky cake eater who happened to step up to the buffet.

 

I also suspect that on some level the OP prefers the married man and the long distance of the relationship. Her dilemma isn't the affair - it's the mitigation of risk. This affair provides all the safety and excuses she needs to mitigate the risk and responsibility of a real relationship.

 

The Motown song is all wrong. There is a mountain just high enough, and should that fail, plenty of rivers just wide enough, to keep me from you (and by extension, myself.)

[Turning point]

I can see where you might make those assumptions, but to be honest I was in a “take things one day at a time” frame of mind for the first several months of our relationship. He eventually told me I was the love of his life, that he wanted to spend the rest of his life....

 

C'mon now, we're all grown-ups. Did he tell you this BEFORE or AFTER you slept with him?