In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[finna]

I appreciate all your thoughts and perspective. I don’t think it’s that I’m in denial (I always knew this could be the outcome) as it is that every time I try to face this head on I am consumed by the pain of loss and grief... and then (maybe this is the denial part) MM will do something to make me think he is still very interested and cares about me.

 

I will likely know more in the next few days on where he is at, and then I feel like I can make better decisions since I will have current information. I am preparing to be resolute with my stance but I’m not yet strong enough to lead with that before I hear what he has to say... I know that will merit some criticism from some folks here but that’s where I’m at for now.

 

I do think he may be trying to gradually pull away although he is the one who keeps reaching out at this point - although as I’ve said the tone has changed... it is definitely not stuff you would share with just a friend, but no gooey relationship talk either. It feels like he keeps trying to make connections but in a slightly different way... I’m not sure exactly.

 

 

 

Based on the above, I suggest creating a dating profile on a Scottish/Irish dating site.

 

I think I'm drawn to your thread because I see you making many of the same mistakes I made...expensive mistakes!!!

 

asaysno, you are in deep denial right now. Your hormones have officially taken over and you are addicted. Leaving your MM behind is akin to quitting a powerful opioid drug (literally!), and you are not ready to give it up.

 

Your perspective is that MM is confused but his love for you will ultimately win him over to you...just give him time to see you are the right choice.

 

His perspective is to manage down your expectations...down, down, down, down, down as time goes on. Then he can accomplish either one of the following two things:

 

1) You will come to expect less and less so he will get what he wants from you with little to no effort on his part;

 

2) He will gradually pull away hoping you won't notice he is trying to bring a permanent end to things. MM do this when they realize your expectations have increased (they over-promised/love bombed) but won't deliver. That way you won't blow up his life.

 

You mentioned recently learning about codependency and think his wife is codependent. Sometimes OW project onto the BS. I think you should explore codependency. There are great videos on YouTube. Alan Robard is one therapist on YouTube that comes to mind. One aspect of co-dependency is self-sacrificing for someone else to the point of one's own detriment, and expecting that other person to repay this sacrifice in kind. Delving into learning about co-dependency is going to bring you lots of clarity and make you feel more in control, so you will feel less pain in missing MM. The uncertainty in dealing with a MM or MW is a killer, and it's mainly because you feel powerless (i.e. out of control) in the situation. You are looking to the other person (i.e. MM) to guide you instead of guiding yourself.

[Amethyst68]

OP, you've just described almost every man I know, well minus the English football, you'd have to substitute any other country. Got most of the men I know insert Scotland, Italy, Ireland

[PhoenixRising8]

OP, you are now where I was October 2018. It may get better for you, but the odds are it will only get worse.

 

Until 3 weeks ago, you were planning your life together and then out of nowhere, he dropped you. Now you are in limbo. Here's my story in a nutshell:

 

Met in March/18 and by end of May we were talking about a future. Shortly after, I left my H. Like you, I knew it was the right thing to do. I had been emotionally vacated from the M for years and I finally found my strength. Didn't leave FOR xMM, but he was the catalyst for sure.

 

Spent most of Aug/18 'living together' because BS was out of country. It was bliss, just like it had been the entire time since March. He was adamant this was how he wanted to live the rest of his life with me, as life partners, not just as we were.

 

Mid September, she tells him she's 'done' and he says that's fine because I want a separation. I guess he expected she would say OK fine. But she was blind-sided, hurt and angry and she showed it. He thought she didn’t care. At this point, she didn't suspect he was cheating. He seized an opportunity but had not pre-planned and was unprepared. Told me he had to at least make a show of 'trying' but DID NOT drop me. We talked about maybe ending it for a period as I said it's hard to try if I'm in the picture, but it was hard for both of us so we continued seeing each other.

 

So in September and October, the 'reason' was to let her down gently and to deal with his feelings of guilt. I understood because I had feelings of guilt over walking away from a decades long relationship, so why wouldn't he?

 

In November the 'reason' was that she was returning to work having been on disability for over a year for depression (news to me) so he didn't want to upset the apple cart and wanted her to return to work because then she would have the financial wherewithal to support herself. OK, makes sense ... Then he had to help her figure out her pension status and negotiate her early retirement. OK, I get it. He's been the finance person in the marriage. Got to help so he can move on. December of course is holiday season so can't leave then, right? He would do so in January.

 

Well January comes around and now they have to go to Hawaii with their best friends, who also happen to be his bosses. They went end of 2015 and this time again, the BFFs/bosses are paying air and accommodation. End of February, we break up for almost a month because I've grown tired of the flip flops and I've been patient. He comes back in tears with a sappy love song and realized he couldn't walk away from me, he was miserable and he was going to make it happen before the end of June as he had the house to get ready for sale and wanted to make sure his son got a good foothold in his new job and his daughter got a co-op. OK, I get it. End of April, I notice subtle things that give me cause to wonder if he hasn't flopped again and he admits he's having one of his moments again and that was it. I had been patient, understanding and he was becoming comfortable with his role in a plural relationship status.

 

My xMM has kids in their late 20's but he was having a hard time 'pulling the trigger' because it would wreak havoc on them! Your MM has a young child. My xMM lives 50 miles from me, not 5,000 and the kids were still a factor. Imagine how it would be for yours.

 

My xMM pulled all sorts of stunts to get her to throw him out so he wouldn't be the bad guy. He didn't run right away. He left her on her birthday and Valentine's day to be with me. He spent 1 or 2 nights overnight with me where he doesn't have a built-in business excuse as his business is local. She wouldn't toss him out. In fact, she went on a campaign to make plans and pay attention, something she apparently hadn't done for years. And she let him have his mid life crises because she knew he was conflict avoidant and he ultimately would take the path of least resistance, and she was right.

 

So here's where I went wrong. The first time in September when he was contemplating giving the M a half hearted try, I should have exited. But neither of us wanted to give the other up. Had I walked, he would have realized I wouldn't be placed in a box. He would have either worked on his marriage or ultimately left. But I made it easy for him to have both of us, as did BS. Had I left then, I would be so much farther ahead NOW. He would have either left her by now and we'd be together or I would have been past the worst of my angst. But I facilitated his vascillation and prolonged my own pain.

 

I have spent a lot of time wondering and digging deep into what is it that led me to go against every value I ever had for the 'love' of this man. And I've wondered how I could love someone who was lying, cheating and manipulating every day for a year, someone who was actually being cruel to his wife and mother of his children. The answer is, I can't really love someone like that. I love how he made me feel for the first part of the R but I hate him for the last part and how he treated both of us. Someone who could knowingly treat people he professes to love that way is not a lovable person. Not in the least. It's all an illusion, a fantasy. It isn't real.

 

Ask yourself why you are on LS. Maybe like me, subconsciously you know this is going in the wrong direction so you post on here to validate your assumptions. I wanted people to say, 'Oh yes, he spent the night with you on her birthday. He really loves you! Don't worry'. Instead they were horrified. They said all the things to me that they are saying to you but I thought (and he said many times) we were meant to be together, we are so compatible, in synch, have so much in common, love of each others' lives and so on. Maybe so, but when he did the cost/benefit analysis, the cost was too great. You may be able to deal with the flip flopping now but it wears on you. You stop being the fun girlfriend and start to be more like the wife – airing complaints, pressuring for a decision, nagging, telling him he’s being unfair to both and now you aren’t making him feel good about himself anymore. You have become her. So why should he leave? Staying where he is costs him nothing.

 

Don’t believe me – read What_Did_I_Do’s story. Her xMM left twice and went back. If you already left, why go back? Finding My Way’s xMM left for two years and went back! Read a thread ‘Destabilization Phase’. It’s 2 years old and a lengthy discussion between OWs and OMs. Even Oms like Jenkins, Rumble and OutOfMySystem loved their OWs but went back to their wives. They miss their OWs but decided in the final analysis that the cost would be to great. And then there’s that age old question: if she’ll cheat with me …

 

Do yourself a favour and walk now. If he’s going to do it, he will. Don’t facilitate his flip flopping because he will become accustomed to it and you will get less and less. Or do it your way and be back here 6 months later that he’s still indecisive. Just remember, making no decision is in fact a decision.

[finna]

I agree of course with the overall message of your post... one of the things that I am grieving is how effortless it was for us to have a joyful time together- we have 90% common interests with just enough differences to be interesting and have things unique to ourselves. Even after a very hard day at work - it was so easy to find stuff to do together that we loved... I have never experienced this kind of compatibility with anyone and am very much missing that piece.

 

 

It goes without saying, but I would suggest that finding a partner who likes bagpipes and Guinness is about as important as finding a job that allows you to put a plant on your desk and drink your favourite tea while working...

 

As wonderful as it is to find a partner who shares your interests, it pales in comparison to finding a partner who is honest, dependable, reliable, trustworthy, faithful, and available to commit to a long term relationship. At this point, he has yet to demonstrate any of those qualities toward you that are of the upmost importance when choosing a life partner...

[BaileyB]

Even after a very hard day at work - it was so easy to find stuff to do together that we loved... I have never experienced this kind of compatibility with anyone and am very much missing that piece.

 

I hear you, I do. But, unless he is a man that you can trust and depend on - who is committed to you and you alone - the relationship has no legs to stand on... It will not last, or be what you truly want it to be, as you are currently discovering...

[LIRR88]

I really appreciate your perspective- for me it’s still about coming to terms with this new reality and letting go of a very unique combination of similar attributes and interests that would be rare for me to find again - especially where I live and work. How many guys do you know that enjoy bagpipes, history, Guinness, kilts, English football, world travel, all sorts of adventure, country music, road trips, cars, camping, and exotic food?

 

Woah, you like kilts and bagpipes also??? This is such a coincidence but so do I. I even have a video up of the NYC St. Patricks Day Parade on my YouTube channel. The funny thing is my MM is Irish and I’d always joke that if we ever got married he’d have to wear a kilt on our wedding day to make me happy lol. I know exactly how you feel, for me it feels like a soulmate type connection. It’s really really hard, I still love my MM very much, but I know he’ll never leave her.

[S2B]

The reason for the family get together isn’t to see his son.

 

That’s him minimizing his relationship with his wife for your benefit - and so he doesn’t look quite so bad.

 

He’s just full of bull ———-> know that for a fact.

 

 

Don’t see him intimately and make it clear he doesn’t get sex at all until he’s divorced... then you will see how hot he is to actually be with you.

 

Start putting up YOUR guidelines - not his! Create space so he knows you understand he intends to stay in his marriage.

Edited June 3, 2019 by S2B

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I appreciate all your thoughts and perspective. I don’t think it’s that I’m in denial (I always knew this could be the outcome) as it is that every time I try to face this head on I am consumed by the pain of loss and grief... and then (maybe this is the denial part) MM will do something to make me think he is still very interested and cares about me.

 

I will likely know more in the next few days on where he is at, and then I feel like I can make better decisions since I will have current information. I am preparing to be resolute with my stance but I’m not yet strong enough to lead with that before I hear what he has to say... I know that will merit some criticism from some folks here but that’s where I’m at for now.

 

I do think he may be trying to gradually pull away although he is the one who keeps reaching out at this point - although as I’ve said the tone has changed... it is definitely not stuff you would share with just a friend, but no gooey relationship talk either. It feels like he keeps trying to make connections but in a slightly different way... I’m not sure exactly.

 

My apologies if my tone comes off as critical. I don't mean it as such. It is really more of a reflection of where I am in my own journey, which is a waaaaay different perspective than I had a couple years ago. Any snarkiness can be attributed to my disappointment in xMM for not even living up to the most basic standards of social etiquette. A couple of years ago I thought the way you do now and I truly am wishing you well, hoping you don't experience the horrendous pain I did. It was soul crushing! However, I was able to use it to understand some deep stuff about myself and all my relationships. I have grown a LOT! and I hope the same for you.

 

p.s. in my early days, I spent months in counseling on this and countless hours on my own trying to resolve this. At the beginning the only way to keep myself from contacting xMM was to think of him as a hot stove that would burn me if I touched it.

Edited June 3, 2019 by HadMeOverABarrel

[finna]

Thanks for taking the time to post your story - and yes, a lot sounds familiar. I took a stand of sorts in late April / early May when I said we had to have our relationship be based on something other than work trips, because at the time our travel budgets were being cut. The crap part of this is that I was operating with a lot of fear, and think that I ended up being way too demanding and needy. Before anyone gets upset and says I should demand that stuff, the fact is that I had told him I would be patient until June, and then I wasn’t. He got scared and stressed, broke things off, and then the travel budget got reinstated - all within about ten days. #fml

 

Now who’s to say the outcome would not have been the same otherwise, but I’m pretty sure we would still be on excellent terms at this point if I hadn’t gotten freaked out and put the pressure on... so perhaps delaying the eventual inevitable but I am still beating myself up about my actions - it sucks.

 

So here I am in this limbo of sorts - he’s said he’s focusing on the family for now, but then arranged to spend all last week with me, and it was mostly not about sex. Granted, he left in the same conflicted state in which we started the week, but he also left a lot of things open - at least until we talk again this next week.

 

I just don’t want to make another mistake like I did a month ago with my attitude and actions if that would make the difference in a final outcome. It makes it hard to know the exact right thing to say and do. I know what I want - I just don’t know how or if I can get it... I do take your story for the cautionary tale that it is - but I also feel like I need to walk this path just a little further to be sure of what’s happening.

 

OP, you are now where I was October 2018. It may get better for you, but the odds are it will only get worse.

 

Until 3 weeks ago, you were planning your life together and then out of nowhere, he dropped you. Now you are in limbo. Here's my story in a nutshell:

 

Met in March/18 and by end of May we were talking about a future. Shortly after, I left my H. Like you, I knew it was the right thing to do. I had been emotionally vacated from the M for years and I finally found my strength. Didn't leave FOR xMM, but he was the catalyst for sure.

 

Spent most of Aug/18 'living together' because BS was out of country. It was bliss, just like it had been the entire time since March. He was adamant this was how he wanted to live the rest of his life with me, as life partners, not just as we were.

 

Mid September, she tells him she's 'done' and he says that's fine because I want a separation. I guess he expected she would say OK fine. But she was blind-sided, hurt and angry and she showed it. He thought she didn’t care. At this point, she didn't suspect he was cheating. He seized an opportunity but had not pre-planned and was unprepared. Told me he had to at least make a show of 'trying' but DID NOT drop me. We talked about maybe ending it for a period as I said it's hard to try if I'm in the picture, but it was hard for both of us so we continued seeing each other.

 

So in September and October, the 'reason' was to let her down gently and to deal with his feelings of guilt. I understood because I had feelings of guilt over walking away from a decades long relationship, so why wouldn't he?

 

In November the 'reason' was that she was returning to work having been on disability for over a year for depression (news to me) so he didn't want to upset the apple cart and wanted her to return to work because then she would have the financial wherewithal to support herself. OK, makes sense ... Then he had to help her figure out her pension status and negotiate her early retirement. OK, I get it. He's been the finance person in the marriage. Got to help so he can move on. December of course is holiday season so can't leave then, right? He would do so in January.

 

Well January comes around and now they have to go to Hawaii with their best friends, who also happen to be his bosses. They went end of 2015 and this time again, the BFFs/bosses are paying air and accommodation. End of February, we break up for almost a month because I've grown tired of the flip flops and I've been patient. He comes back in tears with a sappy love song and realized he couldn't walk away from me, he was miserable and he was going to make it happen before the end of June as he had the house to get ready for sale and wanted to make sure his son got a good foothold in his new job and his daughter got a co-op. OK, I get it. End of April, I notice subtle things that give me cause to wonder if he hasn't flopped again and he admits he's having one of his moments again and that was it. I had been patient, understanding and he was becoming comfortable with his role in a plural relationship status.

 

My xMM has kids in their late 20's but he was having a hard time 'pulling the trigger' because it would wreak havoc on them! Your MM has a young child. My xMM lives 50 miles from me, not 5,000 and the kids were still a factor. Imagine how it would be for yours.

 

My xMM pulled all sorts of stunts to get her to throw him out so he wouldn't be the bad guy. He didn't run right away. He left her on her birthday and Valentine's day to be with me. He spent 1 or 2 nights overnight with me where he doesn't have a built-in business excuse as his business is local. She wouldn't toss him out. In fact, she went on a campaign to make plans and pay attention, something she apparently hadn't done for years. And she let him have his mid life crises because she knew he was conflict avoidant and he ultimately would take the path of least resistance, and she was right.

 

So here's where I went wrong. The first time in September when he was contemplating giving the M a half hearted try, I should have exited. But neither of us wanted to give the other up. Had I walked, he would have realized I wouldn't be placed in a box. He would have either worked on his marriage or ultimately left. But I made it easy for him to have both of us, as did BS. Had I left then, I would be so much farther ahead NOW. He would have either left her by now and we'd be together or I would have been past the worst of my angst. But I facilitated his vascillation and prolonged my own pain.

 

I have spent a lot of time wondering and digging deep into what is it that led me to go against every value I ever had for the 'love' of this man. And I've wondered how I could love someone who was lying, cheating and manipulating every day for a year, someone who was actually being cruel to his wife and mother of his children. The answer is, I can't really love someone like that. I love how he made me feel for the first part of the R but I hate him for the last part and how he treated both of us. Someone who could knowingly treat people he professes to love that way is not a lovable person. Not in the least. It's all an illusion, a fantasy. It isn't real.

 

Ask yourself why you are on LS. Maybe like me, subconsciously you know this is going in the wrong direction so you post on here to validate your assumptions. I wanted people to say, 'Oh yes, he spent the night with you on her birthday. He really loves you! Don't worry'. Instead they were horrified. They said all the things to me that they are saying to you but I thought (and he said many times) we were meant to be together, we are so compatible, in synch, have so much in common, love of each others' lives and so on. Maybe so, but when he did the cost/benefit analysis, the cost was too great. You may be able to deal with the flip flopping now but it wears on you. You stop being the fun girlfriend and start to be more like the wife – airing complaints, pressuring for a decision, nagging, telling him he’s being unfair to both and now you aren’t making him feel good about himself anymore. You have become her. So why should he leave? Staying where he is costs him nothing.

 

Don’t believe me – read What_Did_I_Do’s story. Her xMM left twice and went back. If you already left, why go back? Finding My Way’s xMM left for two years and went back! Read a thread ‘Destabilization Phase’. It’s 2 years old and a lengthy discussion between OWs and OMs. Even Oms like Jenkins, Rumble and OutOfMySystem loved their OWs but went back to their wives. They miss their OWs but decided in the final analysis that the cost would be to great. And then there’s that age old question: if she’ll cheat with me …

 

Do yourself a favour and walk now. If he’s going to do it, he will. Don’t facilitate his flip flopping because he will become accustomed to it and you will get less and less. Or do it your way and be back here 6 months later that he’s still indecisive. Just remember, making no decision is in fact a decision.

[PhoenixRising8]

OP, like you I thought I needed to be patient, and I was. Truly, patience is not the answer. Showing them you will not be deferred time and time again will show them you mean what you say. There will ALWAYS be a 'reason'. Once they start with the excuses, odds are they won't stop. If he made promises, he will either live up to them or not. If he doesn't, you know where you stand. You may be the exception but I promise you you won't be if you let him slowly but surely chip away at your expectations, and that's exactly what you're doing by making excuses for why he dropped you. You didn't overstep your bounds. He just doesn't want to leave. Listen to us or don't, that's up to you. I wish I had listened.

 

Best wishes to you and good luck. Proceed at your own peril.

[finna]

Thank you - and I hear you. Just trying to process the last few weeks and gain some perspective and clarity - albeit slowly and painfully.

 

 

OP, like you I thought I needed to be patient, and I was. Truly, patience is not the answer. Showing them you will not be deferred time and time again will show them you mean what you say. There will ALWAYS be a 'reason'. Once they start with the excuses, odds are they won't stop. If he made promises, he will either live up to them or not. If he doesn't, you know where you stand. You may be the exception but I promise you you won't be if you let him slowly but surely chip away at your expectations, and that's exactly what you're doing by making excuses for why he dropped you. You didn't overstep your bounds. He just doesn't want to leave. Listen to us or don't, that's up to you. I wish I had listened.

 

Best wishes to you and good luck. Proceed at your own peril.

[Aloha123]

Just so you know, for whatever reason, the whole 'we have more things in common than anyone I've ever known" thing is a HALLMARK of these situations. It certainly was with mine, we liked the EXACT same music, had the same sense of humor, I could go on and on.

 

That is probably why it's so hard to let go -- that feeling that, if you went your whole life before him without finding that person, what's to say that you will ever find that person again.

 

But the point is, you haven't found that person in your MM, because he is unavailable and continues to choose his wife over you every day. So all those things you have in common, they really don't matter at the end of the day.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

So here I am in this limbo of sorts - he’s said he’s focusing on the family for now, but then arranged to spend all last week with me, and it was mostly not about sex. Granted, he left in the same conflicted state in which we started the week, but he also left a lot of things open - at least until we talk again this next week.

 

I just don’t want to make another mistake like I did a month ago with my attitude and actions if that would make the difference in a final outcome. It makes it hard to know the exact right thing to say and do. I know what I want - I just don’t know how or if I can get it... I do take your story for the cautionary tale that it is - but I also feel like I need to walk this path just a little further to be sure of what’s happening.

 

Asaysno, lovely lady, do you see what is happening here? ^^^^^THIS^^^^^ is exactly how managing expectations works. He has established the 'don't ask, don't tell' ground rules. Subconsciously, you are afraid he will punish you with further withdrawal if you ask questions or express your needs/expectations, so instead you remain complicit in your own emotional abuse (it's strong wording, but accurate). So you further diminish yourself, your power, your voice hoping he will give you more of what you crave (attention, affection, affirmation, certainty, love, etc), aka reward. He is conditioning you by rewarding you when you act how he wants, and withdrawing (punishing) when you act how he does not want. By remaining silent, you acquiesce further into his control, and allow your own needs to be even more marginalized. The right thing to say and do is to ASSERT YOURSELF and ask for what you want! If he further withdrawals, he is giving you his answer (i.e. NO!). Don't be afraid of NO, because if NO is the truth, better to find out now than later.

 

Then, you have to decide if giving up all of yourself is worth maybe, possibly getting some scraps here and there from him or a maybe someday future. No amount of cajoling or nice girl is going to convince him to honor your needs above his desires. He has made this obvious. Do you really want a man who puts his desires/convenience over your needs? Is that true love?

 

Just because you do it for him, does not mean he will reciprocate. The less you expect shows how much you value yourself, and how he will then value you. The more you look to him to validate you, the less value he places on you. Don't be afraid of hearing the truth of NO now, rather than later after you have invested that much more of yourself. Find YOUR voice, and USE IT! Do not put up with not having a say in how you are treated or regarded. Do not let someone else dictate the terms of your future.

 

Tough talk said with love!

[LIRR88]

Just so you know, for whatever reason, the whole 'we have more things in common than anyone I've ever known" thing is a HALLMARK of these situations. It certainly was with mine, we liked the EXACT same music, had the same sense of humor, I could go on and on.

 

That is probably why it's so hard to let go -- that feeling that, if you went your whole life before him without finding that person, what's to say that you will ever find that person again.

 

But the point is, you haven't found that person in your MM, because he is unavailable and continues to choose his wife over you every day. So all those things you have in common, they really don't matter at the end of the day.

 

THIS! And you’re so right because I’m struggling with the exact same thing, I wonder if I’ll ever be the same again, if i’ll ever find someone like him again because the compatibility was so on point .

[PhoenixRising8]

Asaysno, lovely lady, do you see what is happening here? ^^^^^THIS^^^^^ is exactly how managing expectations works. He has established the 'don't ask, don't tell' ground rules. Subconsciously, you are afraid he will punish you with further withdrawal if you ask questions or express your needs/expectations, so instead you remain complicit in your own emotional abuse (it's strong wording, but accurate). So you further diminish yourself, your power, your voice hoping he will give you more of what you crave (attention, affection, affirmation, certainty, love, etc), aka reward. He is conditioning you by rewarding you when you act how he wants, and withdrawing (punishing) when you act how he does not want. By remaining silent, you acquiesce further into his control, and allow your own needs to be even more marginalized. The right thing to say and do is to ASSERT YOURSELF and ask for what you want! If he further withdrawals, he is giving you his answer (i.e. NO!). Don't be afraid of NO, because if NO is the truth, better to find out now than later.

 

Then, you have to decide if giving up all of yourself is worth maybe, possibly getting some scraps here and there from him or a maybe someday future. No amount of cajoling or nice girl is going to convince him to honor your needs above his desires. He has made this obvious. Do you really want a man who puts his desires/convenience over your needs? Is that true love?

 

Just because you do it for him, does not mean he will reciprocate. The less you expect shows how much you value yourself, and how he will then value you. The more you look to him to validate you, the less value he places on you. Don't be afraid of hearing the truth of NO now, rather than later after you have invested that much more of yourself. Find YOUR voice, and USE IT! Do not put up with not having a say in how you are treated or regarded. Do not let someone else dictate the terms of your future.

 

Tough talk said with love!

 

THIS!!!! I tried the nice approach, being gentle in how I expressed myself, but getting the message across in any case. It didn't work. You can be as nice as you want, but staying only sends the message you want him (and will tolerate what he is giving) regardless of your needs and wants. So you will get less and less. To the end, xMM saw me as often as in the beginning and called and texted morning, noon and night, but the number and duration of both became less. There was a difference, even if not that pronounced. Ultimately, we both realized that I wasn't going to accept excuses forever and he wasn't ready to move. Will he ever be? Most likely not but if I hadn't made my expectations, based on his vociferous promises, known we'd still be dancing this dance. Because they get used to it. They realize no one person fills every void and need. Two is better than one ... for HIM.

[heartwhole2]

I just don’t want to make another mistake like I did a month ago with my attitude and actions if that would make the difference in a final outcome. It makes it hard to know the exact right thing to say and do. I know what I want - I just don’t know how or if I can get it...

 

You mentioned that the BW is manipulative. What do you make of the statement above? If you say or do the wrong thing, you won't get the outcome you want. So you must figure out how to engineer the final outcome that you want by speaking and acting differently than you would in a normal situation . . . ?

 

When we had our DDay and my husband told OW he had to stop talking to her and focus on his family, she posted, "Never give up on something you really want. It's difficult to wait, but worse to regret!" I was pretty confused by this sentiment because this would be the opposite of how I reacted to being rejected. Meanwhile, on our end, I was telling my husband that I was confident I could find someone else so he was free to go if he wanted. The idea of having to play my cards right to get some selfish dope to pick me was unpalatable, to say the least. He either wanted me, or he didn't. He would either meet my requirements, or he wouldn't. Waiting or cajoling or outmaneuvering or mate-guarding were not options because I only want a partner who is healthy, who is honest, who is committed. (I wish you could have seen how big his eyes got when I said that. He thought he was Mr. Two Women Want Me.)

 

There are many, many people you could have a happy life with. I am confident of this. If this weren't true, you'd have to cling like glue to your soulmate, even if he cheats on you, even if he's married to someone else, even if the relationship is unhealthy. Think of the people you know in happy, healthy relationships. I'd bet some of them are widowed. Some of them are divorced. You can and will find love more than once.

 

What it won't have is the powerful biological urge to poach a desirable mate. It won't have the heightened arousal of something forbidden and unobtainable, which leads to a large dopamine hit. Think about your first real crush, how you pined and dreamed, and the build up was long and slow. For most of us adults in the real world, we meet a suitable mate and we start a relationship. There's no obstacle to our being together, so we don't spend a lot of time pining and dreaming. It's not as fun, but it's real. I'd take real any day.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

THIS!!!! I tried the nice approach, being gentle in how I expressed myself, but getting the message across in any case. It didn't work.

 

I did too, sister, I did too! It was awful and painful. I made so many excuses for him, and accepted so much less than I usually would thinking he couldn't do more because he was married. He must have been happier than a pig in a pile of poo! He must've said, "Ohhh goody! I got a real pretzel here! I'm going to bend her and mold her to my will until I either get tired of her or she breaks!" Because that is what they will do if we allow it.

 

You can be as nice as you want, but staying only sends the message you want him (and will tolerate what he is giving) regardless of your needs and wants. So you will get less and less. To the end, xMM saw me as often as in the beginning and called and texted morning, noon and night, but the number and duration of both became less. There was a difference, even if not that pronounced. Ultimately, we both realized that I wasn't going to accept excuses forever and he wasn't ready to move. Will he ever be? Most likely not but if I hadn't made my expectations, based on his vociferous promises, known we'd still be dancing this dance. Because they get used to it. They realize no one person fills every void and need. Two is better than one ... for HIM.

 

Yep!!! especially when they triangulate...fun fun fun! :-D

Edited June 3, 2019 by HadMeOverABarrel

[heartwhole2]

Speaking of mate poaching:

 

"Men and women who said they’d been poached by their current partner tended to start out the study by reporting less commitment to their existing relationship, feeling less satisfied in it, committing more acts of infidelity and looking out for more alternatives.What’s more, over the course of the study, these participants reported progressively lower levels of commitment and satisfaction in their relationships. They also showed continued interest in other potential romantic partners and persistent levels of infidelity....

 

Foster and his team summarised the findings: “individuals who were successfully mate poached by their current partners tend[ed] to be socially passive, not particularly nice to others, careless and irresponsible, and narcissistic. They also tend[ed] to desire and engage in sexual behaviour outside of the confines of committed relationships.” The last factor in particular (measured formally with the “Socio-sexual Orientation Inventory-revised”) appeared to explain a large part of the link between having been poached by one’s partner and having weak commitment to the new relationship."

 

Foster, J., Jonason, P., Shrira, I., Keith Campbell, W., Shiverdecker, L., & Varner, S. (2014). What do you get when you make somebody else’s partner your own? An analysis of relationships formed via mate poaching Journal of Research in Personality, 52, 78-90 DOI: 10.1016/j.jrp.2014.07.008

[lana-banana]

Speaking of mate poaching:

 

"Men and women who said they’d been poached by their current partner tended to start out the study by reporting less commitment to their existing relationship, feeling less satisfied in it, committing more acts of infidelity and looking out for more alternatives.What’s more, over the course of the study, these participants reported progressively lower levels of commitment and satisfaction in their relationships. They also showed continued interest in other potential romantic partners and persistent levels of infidelity....

 

Foster and his team summarised the findings: “individuals who were successfully mate poached by their current partners tend[ed] to be socially passive, not particularly nice to others, careless and irresponsible, and narcissistic. They also tend[ed] to desire and engage in sexual behaviour outside of the confines of committed relationships.” The last factor in particular (measured formally with the “Socio-sexual Orientation Inventory-revised”) appeared to explain a large part of the link between having been poached by one’s partner and having weak commitment to the new relationship."

 

Foster, J., Jonason, P., Shrira, I., Keith Campbell, W., Shiverdecker, L., & Varner, S. (2014). What do you get when you make somebody else’s partner your own? An analysis of relationships formed via mate poaching Journal of Research in Personality, 52, 78-90 DOI: 10.1016/j.jrp.2014.07.008

 

Not to derail, but that was a study of 138 people, 71% female, average age 20 (20!! Finding other partners while you're in a relationship at that age isn't "mate poaching", it's "being young and clueless"), and the longest relationship in question was 3 years. I think that's hardly applicable to the kinds of affairs that happen amongst married or divorced adults.

 

OP: I hope you've noticed how many other posters are echoing you and each other's experiences. As much ad you may feel your situation is unique, it's very familiar to anyone who's lived it or even just read these boards for a while. It's not a coincidence that all of the men just so happen to be seemingly upstanding, charming men inexplicably tied to demonic and manipulative shrews, but somehow conveniently can't manage to do anything about it. They're all there because they want to be.

[darkbloom]

OP— as a current OW in a similar situation, I know how you feel. The red flags though are smacking you directly in the face. Men tell you exactly what they want, we just try and complicate it. He IS staying to work on his family. It doesn’t matter what he promises you or any other pretty words he says about you. He’s given you his intentions and his actions match that. I would cancel this work trip with him or drive yourself. You need to stand loud and clear WITHOUT trying to manipulate the outcome. The MM rarely choose us. It’s a bitter pill to swallow but the sooner you do, the faster you will be able to let go.

[BaileyB]

asaysno, you have some wise women who have been there and done that offering good advice. I hope you appreciate that and hear what they say.

 

As to your thought that you were too demanding, thus prompting his withdrawal... You are not wrong to have expectations of the man you would want to be your life partner. You are not wrong to ask for what you want. Having expectations and establishing boundaries is important in any healthy relationship - it is ultimately a demonstration of self respect.

 

The problem is, this isn’t a normal dating scenario. You are in the land of extramarital affairs. As such, he does not have the ability to give you what you want which puts him between a rock and a hard place. He has clearly shown you by his words and actions that his loyalty is with his family. Which means, he either has to let you down gently or worse case scenario, he is manipulating and managing your expectations the way that many skilled married men do. Extramarital affairs such as this are by their very nature, and unbalanced power dynamic. One partner holds all the cards, one partner decides the fate of the relationship. You become too demanding and he will push you away, silence and punish you, such that you feel like you did wrong by pressuring him too much... You tell him that you understand and you are willing to accept your lot in life - available to soothe his soul by day and entertain him in the night - and all will be right with the world again. It’s a sad and lonely place to be, described by many OW to be soul crushing...

Edited June 3, 2019 by BaileyB

[heartwhole2]

Obviously I am coming from the other side so perhaps I am way off base here, but I see a lot of OW tell each other "He's just manipulating you, he's just saying what you want to hear to keep you as his side piece, etc." And I think for a lot of OW maybe these words ring hollow because his feelings are as genuine as theirs are. So they think, "Well, that's not him, I know him, he's not manipulative, he's just conflicted," and so they dismiss this advice. I would suggest, rather, that feelings are not much to base major life decisions on. Our feelings are intangible things based on perceptions which wax and wane. What matters are actions.

 

I don't think it's beneficial to cast anyone in the situation as a mustachioed villain. That is easier emotionally, for sure, and if you need to do that to extricate yourself then I get that. If the MM really cared about you in a healthy and selfless way he would certainly not put you in this situation. But I don't think most MM are consciously deceiving OW, just as neither MM or OW are consciously deceiving themselves. And I doubt the BW, the only ones in the triangle completely or partly in the dark, are calling the shots through psychic manipulation either. Blaming someone else takes away your own agency. First it's the spiteful, abusive BW who made him so miserable in the first place. Then you figure out he's never leaving and it's the MM who took advantage of you. But if you had started with healthy boundaries and expectations, would these people even be in your life to begin with?

 

You have the agency today to be who you want to be. You cannot make others treat you how you want or do what you want. You can only draw a line in the sand and say, if you cross this, you are out of my life. I don't accept being treated like this.

[BaileyB]

If you had started with healthy boundaries and expectations, would these people even be in your life to begin with?

 

This is a good point. Healthy relationships can not exist without boundaries. To stay in this relationship, you will have to move that line of what you will accept, in a way that you never would in any other relationship. Over time, how do you think that will affect your own self worth and self respect?

 

You mentioned that the BW is manipulative. What do you make of the statement above? If you say or do the wrong thing, you won't get the outcome you want. So you must figure out how to engineer the final outcome that you want by speaking and acting differently than you would in a normal situation . . . ?

 

Another very good point.

Edited June 3, 2019 by BaileyB

[What_Did_I_Do]

There are a few of us on here that bought into the future talk, lock, stock and barrel. I am a veteran of the xMM excuse brigade lol. Mine never, ever told me he had to work on his M, take a step back or "loved his W but was not in love with her". Then he did leave twice (to appease me) and went back. Good times.

 

Chances are good the future faking MM's did not have malicious intent. They too were swept up in the moment. But then they go home and to that comfort feeling and sense of duty to their family reminding them that is where they should be.

 

OP, I'm saying this as gently as possible, he isn't leaving his family. No matter what their dysfunctions are. There's no confusion on his part. There really isn't. He's told you he's not leaving. Ruminating about your tender moments will only keep that four letter word - hope - alive. He's hoping you'll lower your expectations so you can stop asking about his current status.

 

I hope you get the strength to walk away. It will be worth it.

[S2B]

You think you’re in limbo... but you’re not. He’s made it clear... he chooses his marriage and family and plans to celebrate his anniversary.

 

You are involved in his marriage - is that your goal? If it’s not then don’t see him alone again.

 

If it is your goal then keep seeing him knowing full well he only intends for you to be his compliant OW.

 

If you want more from a man you’re seeing them end this affair and date available men. It doesn’t sound like this MM intends to be available anytime soon.

 

 

And remember this about his wife... you only know what lies he tells you about her. MM can’t gain a sympathetic OW without those lies about their wife.