His lowest priority

[Orokotikki]

Therapists are not necessarily magic bullets or bastions of common sense. They are good ones and bad ones.

 

Also, they take their lead from their patient - if you are always taking good about OM - they might encourage divorce, or vice versa.

 

Anyways my point is most of them will go out of their way to never make a decision for you - it is safer for them that way, and probably in their code of ethics.

 

In many cases they will mirror back your own feelings on an issue in their reply.

[heartwhole2]

You could write down his number and hide it away somewhere, and then delete him from your contacts. At least that way it wouldn't be easy to text him, but you can look up his number if you feel the need to later on.

[heartwhole2]

I just tried deleting a contact in my iPhone, and when I plugged in the number to text it, our old texts popped up. So you would probably retain the texts, which it sounds like you're not ready to let go of, but I feel like mentally knowing he's turned into a number instead of a name on your phone would be a step.

[darkbloom]

The way I get through it is that I tell myself “okay darkbloom, don’t text him tonight and if he hasn’t reached out you can text him in the morning you just have to make it through the day” and then the next day I say “okay he hasn’t texted you go to work and focus on that, you can text him when you get off” and then when I get off I say “okay he hasn’t texted you he’s such a jerk you can’t give him the satisfaction” and repeat. I have these talks with myself about 3 times a day to get through it but by focusing on smaller increments it feels less daunting.

[mark clemson]

And I am going through these strange waves of being fine and then BAM hurts like hell and then back to fine again and then not and round and round and round...

 

Is there any tip or tricks at all to just distract from contact when there is no distractions to hand?

 

 

This is your brain adapting to the extra chemicals due to the bonding. I had this during my EA/limerence. I'd be fine for a day or two and feeling like I was pulling out of it and turning a corner and then boom - I'd wake up and nope, not over her at all. It takes a long time but it DOES end eventually.

 

For distractions, in addition to the suggestions above, and social time with friends, try time in nature (boosts serotonin) - even just 10 min can help and exercise (boosts endogenous opiates).

[OWch]

So I am up and down with this situation. Some days are easier then others. I feel like I am just going through the natural grieving process of getting over a relationship (albeit a horribly painful one in which you question your entire life and worth and feel like a pathetic fool).

 

Anyway, my point is I am in IC and although I have found it initially great (when I was spiralling) I now feel like I am not sure what I should be trying to get from it. As I said I feel like I just need to work through this and there are no shortcuts.

 

As a lot of people seem to support IC here I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on what I should be trying to get from it? Anything people found helpful to explore? I guess I am a very self aware person so I don’t really need a lot of help with self reflection, I understand why I went into this relationship and I think I could spot the warning signals now and truly believe I would never find myself in a R like this again so I don’t really feel a need to wade through all that and just feel even more of a fool etc.

 

I have mostly been just getting help with getting over “addiction” of MM. Which has had mixed success! Though I think this is mostly down to me now - deleting messages like you suggested, writing down number and deleting number (good suggestion heartwhole) - I know what I need to do to keep NC I just have to kept to it. I feel like I am not doing too badly at the not contacting him, especially considering we work together - suggestion of just trying to get through the next hour, evening, night, day was helpful. I just need to nail down the no “contact” of reading messages and online presence etc.

 

I am paying for it (IC) as I am determined to not fail at this, but it’s starting to feel like it would be just as useful as throwing my money in a bin and hoping it will pay for my recovery ?

 

I feel like reading LKK thread has been more helpful then therapy! I am only on page 30 so I have some time to go with that yet ?

 

Does this just mean IC has reached it usefulness or does it mean I need to get more from it?

[OWch]

I guess what I am finding hardest is that my MM left but nothing got better or really changed at all. So I had to leave the relationship when I had what most OW see to be “the best outcome” - and convince myself it was the right thing to do. It makes it hard not to blame myself that I must have messed up somewhere. But I am slowly starting to stop blaming myself and hating on myself for decisions that have been and gone now and I can’t change. Well, for at least ten minutes a day I don’t blame myself - so thats some progress ?

[heartwhole2]

I guess what I am finding hardest is that my MM left but nothing got better or really changed at all.

 

You haven't elaborated on this much so I am just guessing, but this does not sound surprising to me. Leaving his marriage didn't fix his character flaws. I can only imagine where my husband would be if we had separated; he wouldn't have had any clue that he was immature, self-absorbed, etc. He would have had false confirmation that the marriage was the problem, not that the marriage is what we both make of it. From my perspective, OW and my husband brought out the worst in each other, not because either of them is a terrible person, but because of the nature of affairs. She was inadvertently sending him the message that his sh*t didn't stink, and who wouldn't lap that up?

 

I can think of at least two other OW stories I've read where the MM left and then was a terrible boyfriend. I imagine that those love chemicals and the biological urge to secure your mate make it very hard to view the MM objectively during the affair. OW often believe that the marriage/BW is the problem and the MM will "find his happiness" with the OW; otherwise they would have to deal with more guilt and self-recrimination. So it is quite the shock when the MM leaves and he's still a terrible partner. I'm curious as to what your MM was like after leaving, if you care to share.

 

I'd ask your IC if s/he sees areas for you to work on. Often we hit a lull in IC just before a big breakthrough. You mentioned a couple of times your feelings of foolishness and your desire to avoid them, so I would think that being able to sit with those feelings and love yourself anyway would be a goal.

 

It makes it hard not to blame myself that I must have messed up somewhere. But I am slowly starting to stop blaming myself and hating on myself for decisions that have been and gone now and I can’t change. Well, for at least ten minutes a day I don’t blame myself - so thats some progress ?

 

You fell into the very common affair thinking traps. We all fall into thinking traps every day, but usually the consequences are minor or go unnoticed. With an affair, you suffer a lot when things fall apart. You wrestle with your identity as a "good person." You vacillate between righteous-indignation at the MM's taking advantage of you and self-hate for being so weak and foolish. This is perfectly normal but the goal is to view everyone involved with some compassion and understanding. MM was probably not a mustachioed villain and you were neither a blameless victim nor a predatory homewrecker. I think IC can be helpful with this.

[Orokotikki]

Identify clear goals for yourself and share them with your therapist to refocus your sessions. They take their lead from their client, but you need to give them direction so you they can help.

 

Maybe something like "I want to learn how to develop healthy and enriching relationships." or "I want to learn how to be happy and secure with myself". And discuss with them what that means and revisit or re-evaluate your goals periodically.

[Bittersweetie]

One main thing I got out of IC was redefining then implementing new coping skills for myself. My old ones were unhealthy and led me down the path of poor choices. It probably wouldn't hurt to come up with some healthy ways/coping skills to deal with spiraling or negative talk or the urge to reach out to MM...and these would be useful for the rest of your life too.

[Abetterme]

@OWch - “what to focus on in IC” - Thanks so much for bringing this up. I was just thinking that I wanted to start a thread on it. I am similar in that I am typically very self-aware, but have come to a sort of stand still on a few things in my own work with my therapist.

 

I appreciate everyone’s comments on this, although, I’m pressed to offer help on that particular piece. I commend you for your awareness that it is an evolving process. As soon as you get a handle on the obsessive thoughts, it’s work on another issue. All work towards a healthy relationship in your future. Keep working, you will get there OW!

[OWch]

Thank you all for the suggestion and input. I just had a good session actually. We discussed relapsing and how to better deal with his communication should it happen in future. We also discussed deleting things so I think it’s probably time. We have agreed to space out the sessions more which I think will work better. I am still not totally sure what it can further achieve from it, just feels like I have to give it time now and keep preserving with the coping strategies etc we discussed, but perhaps I am just making good progress. Not sure. I’ll give it another session at least.

[OWch]

I'm curious as to what your MM was like after leaving, if you care to share.

 

My MM separated from his BS and moved into an apartment. I have always suspected she pushed him out but to be fair he did line up the apartment and I know he had honest conversations about leaving and being in love with someone else etc. I think the truth of it might be that he was so conflict avoidant he forced a DDay and he forced a mutual decision for him to move out - he has always maintained however it was his choice and has no desire to go back.

 

He has pre-teen children who are very active and understandably he wanted to be there for them and I would never have stood in the way of that ... but the long and the short of it meant he has been been pretty much acting like a married couple in all but living arrangements. He was at the family home a lot, pretty much every evening and weekend, ferrying kids around to activities, helping with homework, cutting the grass, they went on holiday as a family twice a year... meanwhile I was kept quiet etc. Although I went to his apartment we had to travel alone and couldn’t go out together locally to him. I never met any of his friends or family even though they all knew there had been an OW. Work knew we were together but he wanted to keep that all very low key and refused to really acknowledge our relationship to anyone (eg leaving work separately etc), even though they all knew and talked about it to me very openly. I think they still think we are together now!

 

He kept promising for a better time but it never changed - and it never changed as I kept accepting it. So it’s not so much he made a bad boyfriend it was more that a separation didn’t mean the end of the affair. He wasn’t a bad boyfriend as he was still a bad MM.

 

That said. Some of his behaviour become intolerable. His lack of communication skills made things unbearable. His conflict avoidance meant he would avoid telling me things until he absolutely had to or I found out - like he would tell me he was going on holiday just days before, despite how many times I told him how not discussing it with me hurt even more. He went on holiday over my birthday and “forgot” to even message me happy birthday. He would come stay at my place and then leave in the early morning to go do a kid related thing and I’d not hear from him for days. All his conversations were me me me - he was never really there for me when I needed him. At one point I was pretty ill and he rarely remembered to check in. Then when something awful happened to me at work and I spiralled into an existential crisis of sorts, bottom line was he just made it about him and went on about how guilty he felt and blah blah blah and then, surprise surprise, hardly made any time to see me. We could never go on holiday ourselves (not even spend a weekend together) as he couldn’t be away from kids and had too many commitments to them - yet he went away with work for a week on a training course and then went away with his new man friends for a long weekend. Talk about being the lowest of someone’s priorities!

 

But I put up with it all like a fool. Occasionally demanding things change but accepting it. Weirdly, even after all that the last straw was when I saw a message from him asking his sister in law to lie to his wife when she next saw her that they hadn’t met up as she wouldn’t like it - that was it, a simple message. But firstly it revealed that BS was still seeing his family (and therefore presumably at all his family functions she had supposedly stopped going to) and secondly he is still lying to her, and who the hell knows why that should even have been an issue. For any normal people that would never be an issue - seeing your sister in law? How can that be a bad thing? The man (and his whole entire family) is dysfunctional. His three years of IC seem to have not helped him one iota. I would love to know what they actually discuss in his sessions as it’s probably just the weather.

 

I feel for his BS I really do - genuinely. I never ever intended to hurt her and I probably don’t know the half of what she must have gone through all these years married to this man. I ended it mostly for me I will admit, but there was a part of me honestly that just couldn’t do this to her anymore, for even one more day.

 

I am not sure if that answers your question heartwhole and I am more then happy to share. To be honest I just don’t as it’s all cliche, stereotype, predictable and obvious - it’s boring and depressing. I do hope though in some way my story might be a warning to all those who wish for this. Separation, divorce, none of these things magically mean a normal functioning relationship. I knew it would be hard but my goodness was it hard. Harder in many ways then being in a full blown affair if I am honest! At least in a full blown affair you can make excuses for MM that make you feel better etc. This...this was just downright cruel manipulative selfish actions, end of. And I know what people will say, that he was keeping me as an option until his wife took him back or not - well I am starting to see that this might well be the sum total of it. I’m not sure though, I don’t think it was that simple. Mostly it’s just all terribly sad for everyone involved. If he cannot and will not change then I am better off out of it - I just need to really truly convince myself of that and accept the 6 years wasted for what it is. People say people can’t change. And maybe that’s true. But how sad for all humanity if it is.

[OWch]

Errr wow, sorry long answer! Probably should have edited that down! Sorry.

[heartwhole2]

Wow, not too long at all, it gives important context.

 

So when you finally broke up with him, he just accepted it? He didn't make (or offer to make) any big changes?

[OWch]

So when you finally broke up with him, he just accepted it? He didn't make (or offer to make) any big changes?

 

He did initially. He texted me (couldn’t even phone! He never phones, always texts) saying he wanted us to talk about what needed to change as we “never really had” and he wanted to but hadn't and that was his fault. He said that he knew he had flaws and wanted to change and make progress but needed me to help him understand what it should look like. This was incredibly frustrating as we honestly had spoken about it a million times - some very specific and detailed conversations where we actually agreed what needed to change - like him being honest with his BS for one and telling her he was in a relationship.

 

I replied and said that we had discussed extensively and it was infuriating he was now making out like we hadn’t - but I would meet to discuss again if we were going to be absolutely honest about what we will and won’t do. That I was done with talking and nothing actually changing.. and I couldn’t go on like that anymore as I was miserable and I hated what the situation was making me. Then, radio silence. Nothing.

 

So I took that as his admitting he wasn’t going to change a thing and he was letting me go.

 

Then I got a message few weeks later saying he had made “what he sees” as a “great step forward” and he was sorry he hadn’t done it while we were together and that was a mistake. As I knew he was away from his family overseas at the time I told him that it mustn’t have been anything significant and hardly worth his cryptic message. Radio silence. No denial. No, well actually I have told my wife or I have filed for divorce. I think he was very likely just drunk. And probably trying the door.

[heartwhole2]

His lack of communication skills made things unbearable. His conflict avoidance meant he would avoid telling me things until he absolutely had to or I found out - like he would tell me he was going on holiday just days before, despite how many times I told him how not discussing it with me hurt even more. He went on holiday over my birthday and “forgot” to even message me happy birthday. He would come stay at my place and then leave in the early morning to go do a kid related thing and I’d not hear from him for days. All his conversations were me me me - he was never really there for me when I needed him. At one point I was pretty ill and he rarely remembered to check in. Then when something awful happened to me at work and I spiralled into an existential crisis of sorts, bottom line was he just made it about him and went on about how guilty he felt and blah blah blah and then, surprise surprise, hardly made any time to see me. We could never go on holiday ourselves (not even spend a weekend together) as he couldn’t be away from kids and had too many commitments to them - yet he went away with work for a week on a training course and then went away with his new man friends for a long weekend. Talk about being the lowest of someone’s priorities!

 

This reminds me a lot of my husband before, during, and immediately after the affair (it was like he turned these traits up to double power during the affair). After the MC told him that he was self-absorbed and low on empathy, he finally "had" to believe me and stop seeing himself as this heroic martyr (like your MM he is super involved in our children's lives and devoted to them). It was like empathy boot camp where he would ask me about my day (one of his two "great" grievances on DDay was my failure to ask him about his day, and I pointed out that he never asked me about mine!), and then as soon as I said something he could relate to he cut me off to talk about himself. We had to practice this. I would cut him off and point out what just happened. I would resist the urge to strangle him and start again. (Yes, I am a saint.)

 

And yup, he was always too busy to go on vacations that I wanted to take but could find time to go away for over a week with friends. When I was sick, he was short with me and acted like I was doing it on purpose. In fact, I always joked with him that whenever I said I was tired, dizzy, queasy, whatever, he always said, "Me too!" even if the cause of mine was pregnancy. He never said, "Oh honey, that must be awful." He was a terrible partner to develop a chronic illness with, though I am happy to say that he got to prove that he has changed in this area when my health got really poor last year. He was doing all the work of a single parent and taking care of me, never getting to do a single fun thing for himself, and he was cheerful, encouraging, and kind throughout it all, for months at a time.

 

Things were not this lopsided before we got married and had kids and I started staying home and then developed a chronic illness, or else I would have never married him.

 

So anyway, I can relate. A lot. By one year out from DDay I remember thinking he had doubled his empathy from a 2 out of 10 to a 4. By another year out he was at a 6. I give him top marks now but it took as much effort as training for a marathon. And he had never had to look himself in the mirror because an objective third party pointed it out and I wasn't backing down, then I am positive he would not have changed. If he had wound up with OW he would have been that same guy as you're MM. He would have expected her to understand and slot herself into his already full life because he had given up "so much" for her.

 

That's not to say I completely disagree with how your MM handled things. If I got divorced I would absolutely want us to coparent together. Having children together is a sacred thing and I would hate if we couldn't be friends and do things as a unit still. It's hard to know where the line was between trying to slowly legitimize your relationship or just not wanting to deal with being "that guy" who left his family for another woman.

 

And now I've written my own novel.

[heartwhole2]

That I was done with talking and nothing actually changing.. and I couldn’t go on like that anymore as I was miserable and I hated what the situation was making me. Then, radio silence. Nothing.

 

How very hurtful.

[Aloha123]

First, it took me almost a year of weekly sessions to really notice a significant change in my outlook, self-esteem, etc.

Second, it may be that your therapist is not a good fit, or just not that good. For me, switching from one who was more of the "wow, I can hear that you are feeling really bad" to one who was more "in your face", even to the point of telling me to go back to work (I was a SAHM when I started), to seriously consider divorce as a real possibility (NOT to be with the mm, obviously), etc. etc. made a big difference.

[OWch]

That's not to say I completely disagree with how your MM handled things. If I got divorced I would absolutely want us to coparent together. Having children together is a sacred thing and I would hate if we couldn't be friends and do things as a unit still. It's hard to know where the line was between trying to slowly legitimize your relationship or just not wanting to deal with being "that guy" who left his family for another woman

 

I 100% agree on the coparenting and I think really that’s why I put up with the progress being so slow for so long... I really wanted to do the best possible by them from the mess we made. I felt it was really important for him to show in action he was still there for them (and actually to some extent her - you can’t just turn your back on someone after 20+ years). I actually genuinely thought it was good they felt they could go on holiday together as a family and be friends. I just wanted him to discuss with me he was going (so I could make my own plans etc) and I wanted him to be more honest all round, and for this coparenting to come from a place of honesty.

 

Our relationship being out in the open would have made other things easier too and relieved so many pressures. For example I tried to spend more time at his place to make it easier for him to go off and do things with kids - but I would find I couldn’t leave the apartment and it was driving me crazy. We couldn’t nip out to dinner when he got back or pop to the shops together or go for a walk when we had some time... so we just sat and watched tv. And although kids of course had to be number one I did want him to put me a close priority after the kids... once work and his vile new friends and running clubs and “being tired” started taking a priority over me it felt like a girl has got to take a hint!

 

Perhaps he could have changed. Your H definitely sounds like he had some similar challenging traits and him changing shows it can be done. And yes you sound like you have the patience, resilience and dedication of a saint! To get things from a 2 to a 10 is more then impressive, well done you and him! I don’t know heartwhole, sometimes I worry I gave up too soon. It was me who managed to finally get him into IC and he did make some small changes over our years together thanks to my support and persistence. He definitely seemed more dedicated to changing for me then for BS.

 

But that said, it was slow, so slow, and over the past 12 months I saw very little further change at all ... like I said, I am not sure what the IC was doing. And he definitely didn’t want to be “that guy” and I am not sure he would ever have finally accepted and owned up to being “that guy”. So it questions any future we may have as a functioning out in the open relationship, no matter how long I waited it out...

 

I think I still have lots to process. And still another 70 odd pages of LKK’s thread to read

 

Thank you for your support and thoughts and sharing your story with me.

[OWch]

First, it took me almost a year of weekly sessions to really notice a significant change in my outlook, self-esteem, etc.

Second, it may be that your therapist is not a good fit, or just not that good. For me, switching from one who was more of the "wow, I can hear that you are feeling really bad" to one who was more "in your face", even to the point of telling me to go back to work (I was a SAHM when I started), to seriously consider divorce as a real possibility (NOT to be with the mm, obviously), etc. etc. made a big difference.

 

I really like this therapist as he is solutions based and he give options etc. The therapy I did before him - when I just went into a room and spoke to someone like they were a brick wall - I didn’t get on with at all. Perhaps it is just that it’s a shorter term type of therapy, and I did go to him a few years ago and did a lot of work then, and also I am quite a self aware person and tend to pick up concepts quickly, so perhaps I have just reached its use. But as I said today’s session was more useful then I thought it was going to be so perhaps I just keep at it for now. I think someone’s suggestion of asking him what he thinks I should work on is a good idea for next time if I go into it feeling the same. Sounds like that’s the sort of opinion your’s gave and you found that useful.

[heartwhole2]

Well I don't know if I'd give him a 10 for empathy but I probably wouldn't give myself one either. But he has learned to pair his naturally warm feelings with selflessness.

 

So after a whole year of being separated he was still unwilling to be seen dating you in public. And he didn't have a timeline for when he would be ready?

 

I wouldn't be happy in a relationship with a man who couldn't make phone calls for important things. I know for people slightly younger than I am this is more common but serious conversations deserve it.

 

You said he has made new "vile" friends. So these are all post-separation friends? Are they different than the kind of guys he hung out with before?

 

He definitely seemed more dedicated to changing for me then for BS.

 

My husband has always told me he made all his big life changes and sacrifices for me. And even before the affair I would say, that's great, but I hope you are making these changes for you. We should want to be good people for ourselves, not for other people.

 

Forgive me if this is too personal, but is having kids a goal of yours?

[OWch]

So after a whole year of being separated he was still unwilling to be seen dating you in public. And he didn't have a timeline for when he would be ready?

 

I am somewhat embarrassed to say it was two years. The first year was up and down and adjusting and to be fair he made lots of changes - it felt fair to give him time to adjust etc. Last 12 months no changes. No timelines. It very much felt like life was on hold. And could be indefinitely.

 

 

You said he has made new "vile" friends. So these are all post-separation friends? Are they different than the kind of guys he hung out with before?

 

He didn’t really have friends before. He has one close friend he rarely saw/sees. These are friends he has made since separating - mostly other kids dads at least one of whom is also recently separated. I thought it was a good thing he made friends and always encouraged it - I never told him I thought were vile and I only call them that as the messages and videos and gifs etc they send on their group chat are absolutely horrid. But maybe they are nice chaps, who knows, I never met them. Can’t say I am overjoyed he went on holiday with them - it was probably prostitutes all round.

 

We should want to be good people for ourselves, not for other people.

Agree. I said the same to him too But I think there was part of him that wanted to be a better person for me. As in it was for him not just me but I gave him the motivation to want to be better, and he said many times he didn’t want to repeat the mistakes of his old relationship with us.... I do believe that and his intention. He is still going so I gave him credit for that. Even if somewhat sporadically and with questionable progress.

 

Forgive me if this is too personal, but is having kids a goal of yours?

No. I have never had any intention or desire to have children of my own.

[heartwhole2]

Our friends are a reflection of who we are and who we want to be. I would find it troubling that he was attracted to those sorts too. Prostitutes!

 

I'm impressed that you were able to overcome the sunk cost fallacy and extricate yourself from the relationship when you realized it was not going to change. I can't imagine anyone who thinks 2 years isn't long enough before being seen dating someone new. Does his BW know about you? Do you think she said, "She's never to be around our children" or something like that?

 

I'm glad kids are not a goal so this hasn't eaten into your window to have them. I find that particularly tragic about OW stories.

 

I know you are here for tips on moving on and staying NC so if my questions about details aren't helpful, please ignore. I personally find telling my story therapeutic but if it's not the right time for that, that's OK.

[ABernie]

My few thoughts:

 

1. Binge Santa Clarita Diet on Netflix. omg - I could think of nothing else!

 

2. I deleted his contact, but moved the text to archived. It is my hope that if/when he does reach out, I can say "I'm sorry, who is this?"

 

3. IC - For me, she pulls me out of the holes I fall in. She reassures me that his feelings were probably real, but from her experience 1. the man never leaves - the woman pushes and 2. kids do really keep men to stay. I know from my own X. He wants to be with kids all the time. Who am I to deny him or them that? But are we ever getting back together? No, but I'm glad that we are friends and can do this for our children.