Moms can’t do trials?

[jakrbbt]

Recently one of my coworkers at my new-ish job told me (completely seriously and without any irony) that I won’t be able to take any of my cases to trial until my child is grown.

 

I’m a trial lawyer and have a 6-yr-old and share custody 60-40 with his dad. I do love my job. The comment bothered me and I’m trying to find the most effective way to respond.

 

For 25 years, before I got here, the previous attorneys in my office were all male.

 

I’m sure the person who made the comment wasn’t trying to be inappropriate, but because it was a pointed and not offhand comment, I’m concerned that it may reflect the office’s beliefs (this person is not an outlier).

 

I typically work an 8.5-10 hour day in the office, and sometimes 12 hours, 5 days a week; I usually don’t take a lunch; and I am always awake in the 4:00 hour which is when I do laundry and, if needed, any extra work on my cases at home while my son sleeps. My work product is good and I’ve had no complaints about it. I’m the only lawyer in the office with a child.

 

I’ve done over 50 jury trials (all before having a child, because I then did appellate work in the interim), and I strongly disagree, of course, that I can’t do a jury trial as a mother.

 

I’m sure my experience is a fairly common one among working moms.... How have others of you handled (especially working moms) this sort of thing?

 

My sense is i shouldn’t say anything unless I get a similar comment from higher up. But I have other reasons for being concerned that this isn’t an inconsequential comment (little things that have happened or been said). I don’t want triable cases to be reassigned to childless or male lawyers only.

 

But aside from that, the unfair attitude toward working mothers just bothers me and is downright distracting. It feels wrong not to address it.

 

I am tempted to somehow bring it up with my boss, and explain that I can put in (even) longer hours for trials by hiring caregivers. But I do not want to turn this into some workplace conflict. Nor do I want the commenter to be in trouble. Do I revisit the comment with the person? Do nothing? Was my best option just to say something at the time which of course, I didn’t? Thank you in advance for any input, this is a bit vulnerable for me to tell the story but I think it is important for us working mothers to share these things.

[Mr. Lucky]

I’d simply let your performance do the talking. As the father of a daughter, hard to believe this crap still exists, but it obviously does. However, sounds like this person stating opinion, not policy. Are there any other females hired since you arrived? Anyone you can compare notes with?

 

Your matter-of-fact description of custody implies things have settled down with your ex. If so, good news...

 

Mr. Lucky

[noelle303]

That comment was completely out of line. It's downright rude, hurthful and untrue! Is it even legal to say stuff like that anymore?

 

I think you should bring it up with your boss. Simply tell him that this is a comment you've heard from one of the other lawyers (you don't have to name names if you're worried about conflict) and that you hope this isn't some unwritten rule because you are absolutely ready for handling a jury trial and childcare won't be an issue here.

 

For what is worth - I get it. I am a working single mom as well and I have about 90% custody of my daughter who goes to her dads house every other weekend. I have a demanding career in corporate finance where people in similar positions to me are almost exclusively male. I know that even mentioning children, childcare or anything related to that automatically makes you a weak link in their eyes.

 

It's why I always work extra hard to be professional, do the work, keep personal things completely separate and never even mention anything kid-related if not necessary.

 

A little while ago we had a day-long meeting and I remeber one of my co-workers asking me "where's your daughter going to be today?", I simply said "it's been handled" and that's it. I don't owe anyone explanations and it's really no one's business but mine.

 

So that's how I deal with it - keep things separate, never let personal matters interfere with work and simply work my butt off.

 

Snide comments - I usually brush off, but if it's something that I feel to be a threat to my career, I have involved higher-ups before and am not sorry. Sexist and rude behavior should be addressed and have consequences.

[clia]

Does this co-worker have any authority over the cases you work on or your assignments on your cases? If not, then just ignore. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions until you are actually excluded from a trial. I would think part of the reason they hired you was due to your trial experience.

 

Recently one of my coworkers at my new-ish job told me (completely seriously and without any irony) that I won’t be able to take any of my cases to trial until my child is grown.

 

How did you respond? You should've just said "Well, I don't see any reason why that would be the case" or "Why do you say that?" or something like that and let it go.

 

Honestly, at this point I would do nothing, but watch and observe. But if someone brought it up again, I would question it right then and there.

[d0nnivain]

Remind the speaker that those comments were sexist & violate the spirit of any # of anti discrimination laws. Then point that misguided soul toward the ABA committee on women in the practice as well as any similar committee in your state. Perhaps drop a biography of RBG on his desk. (I'd suggest dropping it on his head but that probably wouldn't go over well).

 

Do not bring it up with your boss. In an all male environment you will look like a weak crybaby if you go running to the managing partner. Do note the date & time this person made the comment so you can refer to it later if needed.

 

Meanwhile, do your job & kick that guy's butt.

[Simple Logic]

I have never heard of a judge continuing a trail due to council having a sick child. So you have to put your client before your family and demonstrate you have an iron clad procedure in place to deal with family issues.

[snowcones]

The person who made the comment was speaking for herself and asserting her personal boundaries. She has a right to do that. It's up to her employer if they still find her to be valuable and want to keep her considering her boundaries. As for the OP, if I were her and I wanted to keep working trials, I would speak to my partner or whoever assigns cases and evaluates your performance, and let them know that I was more than willing to do the work necessary to go to trial and that my family/personal matters will never get in the way of that. There is no need to even bring up the other woman or speak to her. I see this as a case-by-case (or person-by-person) thing, so handle it that way. If your employer wants to set some company-wide standard, then let them do that. It's their problem to deal with, not yours. Speak up to your boss and make it known what you are willing to do and stay out of the other woman's issue. I wouldn't avoid speaking to your boss about your abilities, because he or she may automatically clump you in with the other woman just because you have a child. Speak up but refrain from bringing anyone else up.

Edited June 9, 2019 by snowcones

[preraph]

Have you had to take off work at the last minute to go get your child and that sort of thing?

 

I mean, that would be the ONLY possible reason someone could justify saying that to you.

 

I would do two things. First I would get a backup plan for child emergencies firmly in place and put a childcare person on retainer who could go pick your child up in a pinch. Put her on the list of people at the school, tell the school and your child about it. Get it really nailed down. Keep her on retainer so she is on call. Notify her at trial times to be where she can come help on a dime.

 

Then I would talk to whoever your supervisor is and just repeat that conversation to him and tell him, You know, this makes no sense. I have a babysitter on retainer so that if I was in the middle of something important, they're on call to go pick the child up, take them to the doctor, whatever. And if they stuck to the line that other person brought up, I'd probably talk to HR or go yet up higher on the ladder.

 

But first you have to be sure you have it set up where you are not the only one in the office having to leave at the last minute. (But I just bet they all play golf together some days -- I know how hypocritical it can be.)

[Tamfana]

I say speak up. A man would. Being quiet or fearing ruffling feathers is the old way.

 

My daughter- 10 years a prosecutor in a major city, married but childless for now- is leaving her job (and leaving the country for that matter- ha!- to a country where parenting is supported) due to the unmistakable pattern of promoting and giving raises to male colleagues with the same seniority as the female attorneys who have better reviews and production numbers. She and her female friends (and some male friends) were cautious about drawing conclusions for a few years but by the 8th or 9th year, there was no doubt. Men were promoted and given raises faster than more reliable and more productive women. The justification has been that immediate supervisors hold on longer to their most productive people, thereby harming them. It doesn't matter to me, or her, what the reasoning is because the result is that women don't reach upper levels and don't get paid as much as male counterparts. Her office lost 5 very productive successful female attorneys this year and every one of them told their supervisors the reason during exit interviews.

 

Speak up. Now is the time. I'd ask whether this is policy, custom, or a pattern that has resulted in attorneys believing this is the policy or custom.

[jakrbbt]

Thank you all for replies! A quick addition: I’m in the office more than the other attorneys. One of them takes a 2-hour lunch every single day to work out. Another “hates mornings,” comes in around 9:00, takes at least an hour lunch, and leaves at or before 5 to work out. She is the one other female attorney and is extremely crass and vocal about purposely choosing not to have children and loving to drink excessively. (The alcohol talk may be partly just talk, I’ve never seen her drunk at work though she does describe hangovers and having blacked out the night before, drinks mimosas at trainings or retirement parties et c). ). Another comes in at 8:30, takes 1.5 hour lunch typically, leaves at 5. They all socialize together on weekends and evenings. I am more straight-laced and polite seeming, and I have received some hostility from one of the male investigators and another male attorney and the female investigator, but everyone else there clearly likes me. The problem is the investigators and two lawyers I’m concerned about do a lot of very artful, and probably partly sincere, kissing up to the brand new managing attorney and the off-site boss. I don’t have much opportunity to socialize and I dislike the gossip, sex jokes, weirdly hateful comments about opposing counsel, overly personal questions and sharing, our-loud stereotyping, and mean teasing that constitutes workplace socializing here. I smile politely and try to adopt the same tone but not the substance, and I feel awkward.

 

Maybe I’m venting now.

 

I’ve never had child issues get in the way of work hours so far. We don’t clock in exactly, we’re just expected to put in a 40 hour week (which I’m always over) and get our work done (which we all do). I’m there from 8:15-5:30 or later. Both sets of grandparents live in town, dad has a live-in gf who’s great, and I have a reliable babysitter plus several backup ones. And it’s federal court, so we have lots of planning and predictability. Several of the prosecutors have small children.

Edited June 9, 2019 by jakrbbt

[Tamfana]

@jakrbbt

Crummy firm culture you have there.

Do you have resumes out to better firms?

[noelle303]

Agreed that the culture seems very unprofessional, almost like you're describing a frat party.

 

My dad is an attorney, I've never heard something like that described as work behavior.

 

Do you enjoy working there?

[d0nnivain]

While it should be OK if your #s speak for themselves, you will need to socialize more. Law is a social profession. Show up at least once every 2 weeks even if you just have a club soda & leave

 

The women are jealous.

 

Find a way to get closer to the managing partner.

[Mr. Lucky]

Show up at least once every 2 weeks even if you just have a club soda & leave

 

Find a way to get closer to the managing partner.

 

Real world advice. You get get on a soapbox or you can advance your career.

 

Someday, when you’re managing partner, the culture will be up to you ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Foxhall]

I would love to be a trial lawyer,

 

Accountancy work is so boring although teaching it is somewhat more enjoyable,

 

Yes well you are going to need to be tough in the courtroom so you need to be tough in the office, get the vibe out there how much you are looking forward to taking such a case to trial,

 

be bold brash and confident,

 

do not let these stuffy male lawyers try to keep you in your box,

 

lol I used to occasionally view that tv series, the good wife was it, she fared out ok in the end?

[elaine567]

Real world advice. You get get on a soapbox or you can advance your career.

 

Agreed.

OP.

Singlehandedly you cannot change the entire culture of your workplace. Everyone is fine with it, it is apparently only you that doesn't quite "fit in" .

Whistleblowers and "troublemakers" may get some back slapping for being honest and true, but they usually do their own careers a great disservice.

[d0nnivain]

Whistleblowing as a trial lawyer is a bad plan.

 

Your firm trusts you to fix clients' problems in an adversarial setting. If you go running to management crying boo hoo, what does that say about your advocacy skills? Stick up for yourself & shove the sexist's attitude down his throat (or up another orifice) with a stiletto in the form of your billables, client satisfaction ratings, rainmaking skills, & won/loss record.

[preraph]

Stand up for yourself just like any man would. Don't whine or anything unprofessional. Just tell them you didn't understand why you received that comment and that you fully expect to be treated the same as anyone else.

 

If you are skipping social functions, some or all of them may have decided that you are doing that because you have a child, so skipping those functions may be the root of the whole reason they're sleeping to that assumption. Though I have to say if you are skipping social functions I bet having a child has something to do with it, so I understand you don't really enjoy them. Having people feel you like them is necessary in any job. So you need to fake it.

 

I'm sure you must realize that even Federal trials require some late-night and early-morning hours that aren't on your normal agenda to work with various requests the judge asks you to have ready. The docket itself maybe over at 5, but very likely you will be either working late or getting up way early to visit judge in Chambers the next day.

Edited June 10, 2019 by preraph

[Eternal Sunshine]

It sounds like the company isn't the right cultural fit for you.

 

 

 

I am jealous. At my workplace, everyone has kids, that's all they talk about and it's considered normal to have a kid related emergency twice a week and dissapear in the middle of the day. Oh, and nobody drinks alcohol

[preraph]

A positive non-confrontational way of letting the key person or group know that you won't be excluded would be to say, I know some of you had made comments about exempting me from doing trials because I'm a mother. There's just no need for that. I have child care on call, so I don't need any special treatment but thank you.

[Tamfana]

The women are jealous.

 

Which women are jealous of what?

I've found most female colleagues great to work with.

[d0nnivain]

Which women are jealous of what?

I've found most female colleagues great to work with.

 

Most women are great to work with. In the OPs office she has women investigators who are jealous they she is a lawyer & they are not. Then she has one other woman lawyer who is jealous that the OP has a child while she does not. In Big Law it's tough to get ahead if you have to balance work life & family.

[clia]

Most women are great to work with. In the OPs office she has women investigators who are jealous they she is a lawyer & they are not. Then she has one other woman lawyer who is jealous that the OP has a child while she does not. In Big Law it's tough to get ahead if you have to balance work life & family.

 

With all due respect, this is a pretty big leap. I'm not seeing it based on what she's posted.

[Tamfana]

Most women are great to work with. In the OPs office she has women investigators who are jealous they she is a lawyer & they are not. Then she has one other woman lawyer who is jealous that the OP has a child while she does not. In Big Law it's tough to get ahead if you have to balance work life & family.

 

I see. I didn't see indications of jealousy from co-workers in what she had written (or that she was in Big Law) so I didn't know. I didn't look up history. "She's jealous" is just one of those canards so I thought I'd ask.

[noelle303]

While it should be OK if your #s speak for themselves, you will need to socialize more. Law is a social profession. Show up at least once every 2 weeks even if you just have a club soda & leave

 

The women are jealous.

 

Find a way to get closer to the managing partner.

 

Well, I have personally always avoided any socializing with colleagues outside of working hours. Granted, I don't work in law, so it may be different, but I have always kept professional and personal strictly separate.

 

I attend office christmas parties, an occasional celebration, but that's pretty much it. I avoid all other forms of mixing and socializing, especially when they involve alcohol.

 

It's just what I find that works best for me and I really don't care who thinks what of that. So, OP if you find that to be the same, I would advise you against forcing yourself to go out just to "fit in".

 

I also don't see how other women are jelaous? Nothing suggest that the female lawyer wants to have a child and is jelaous of OP or that the investigator wants to be a lawyer. Those are just prejudicial assumptions.