Curiousroxy86 Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 and it's how it should be on a first meeting. I've had many 0$ dates that were fun like a day in a park, garage sales, flea market, free out door concerts, beach...those were not real dates cause they didn't have big $ atrached to them? Nobody said they weren’t fun. I don’t judge a guy for asking me out on a date zero. I get the sentiment behind date zero. Even If a guy offer something extremely wack I wouldnt turn him down for it I would just redirect him to something a little more classier but still suggest something that’s not a lot of money. Example he offer to meet for coffee I would suggest drinks instead. Why? Because coffee shops is not a romantic setting to me lol. I believe in setting the tone off right at the beginning and we can get lazy later...together lol. So I’m not a date zero hater. But despite the fact that I will go on them, may very well enjoy it, and have no problems with the guy over it date zeros are still what they are...they are low maintenance and effortless in nature which is fine but because they are so low investment I personally will unapologetically offer to pay on the fourth date if a guy offers date zero as the first date. if a guy asked me out on an actual date where he put in effort from the start theeeeeen I will do what I normally do which is offer on the third. So as I stated date zeros do not count as true effort to me. Date zeros is the epitome of “low expectations” on who you go out with whether out of the unknown of dating in general or as a poop test (if you know what I meant. I been getting flagged for lanaguage ) Link to post Share on other sites
CautiouslyOptimistic Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 In my perspective, men should pay for the dates. I don’t see anything wrong with these women’s behavior. Why not just go somewhere less expensive? A coffee shop or a picnic in the park with a bottle of wine? Have a beautiful day my friend. I don't think he was disagreeing or saying he didn't want to pay. Just that it is nice for the woman to at least ask. I am also of the opinion that whoever does the asking should do the paying (regardless of whether it's a date or just friends) unless going out is a regular thing. My former MIL talk me that a long time ago. Whenever she'd ask me to lunch she'd say, "No, I invited you...I'm paying." I did the same thing last week with my own mother and aunt when I invited them out to breakfast. They both offered of course, because they are nice people, but I invited them, picked the place, and paid. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Springsummer Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 That's an interesting idea. If I ask her to split the check will she continue to see me? It could be a good test. If she is interested in me as a person it shouldn't matter if I can afford to pay for her drinks/meal or not. I would pay for myself. I don't really feel comfortable that a guy who I don't know nor plan to see again pay for me. I am not comfortable taking advantage of another person. but....if a guy asks me to pay, I won't see him again. I just don't interest in any guy as a person who asks me to pay. can't explain exactly why. he just suddenly appear not manly. and it has nothing to do with the money itself. Link to post Share on other sites
Springsummer Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 When I was dating I always insisted on paying my own way. That way you don’t owe anyone anything. yes. that's me too. I don't like feeling owing anybody anything. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 ...and it has nothing to do with the money itself. unfortunately Ss when people say it's not the money...it's the money 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Springsummer Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 My buddy’s Mom had a rule of thumb. You open the car door for a chick to let her in, you close the door and walk around to the driver side. You’ll know a chick worth keeping if she reaches across to open YOUR door. Just a thought. That's so meaningless. today people are equal and have able bodies. why such trouble? I can just hop in the car myself. why reaches across to open your door? any decent car has automatically door opening. Link to post Share on other sites
Springsummer Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 unfortunately Ss when people say it's not the money...it's the money you can believe whatever you want to believe. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Logo Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 Having read all the comments, I want to respond with a consolidated post to a few points and make a couple of points. 1. It’s always wise to meet somewhere low key like a coffee shop or a park on the first date in order to keep expenses low, however. That’s not always feasible or possible. Sometimes the woman feels uncomfortable meeting at a park, even in public. Sometimes a woman won’t take a man seriously if he offers to meet at a coffee shop. There have been examples on these very forums of posters writing about how they don’t bother with coffee or Starbucks or a walk in the park since it doesn’t strike them as serious. 2. Sometimes the weather forces one to meet indoors. Most women and most people in general don’t like drinking coffee in the evening. So drinks are the only other alternative. 3. A few have posted that if they invite the other person, then they are prepared to pay for the drinks or meal. But, when was the last time a woman asked a man out? In most cases, it’s the man asking the woman out. So in keeping with that rule or logic, he has to pay the check. 4. This is one of my pet peeves, on the one hand it’s 2019 and everyone and their uncle is equal, on the other hand most women in my area at least are for some reason “traditional” when it comes to dating. It strikes me as a convenient carte blanch. One divorced woman outright told me that she’s not looking for anyone to feed her, that she can buy us both meals for an entire year. She just prefers to feel courted and that the man is taking care of her and showing her a good time. I didn’t bother asking her out after that conversation. 5. When I first meet a woman and by the end of the date I know that I don’t plan on seeing her again, I ask her to split the check. The ones that have taken advantage of my generosity were the ones who led me to believe they were interested in something serious or that they were into me, only to play games 3 or 4 dates in. By then, when it was all said and done, there was no asking for a refund for all the expenses. 6. I don’t know of any woman in the area that would take a man seriously if he consistently offered to take her out on low cost dates, no matter how “fun” some posters are suggesting those dates can be. Women probe, they ask questions, they want to know that the guy can be a reliable provider, that he’s got his life together. Heck, some conversations/dates feel like job interviews instead of being fun outings. So the noble notion that she’s going to like the guy for his personality is a tad idealistic, to use a euphemism. Link to post Share on other sites
Art_Critic Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 5. When I first meet a woman and by the end of the date I know that I don’t plan on seeing her again, I ask her to split the check. The ones that have taken advantage of my generosity were the ones who led me to believe they were interested in something serious or that they were into me, only to play games 3 or 4 dates in. By then, when it was all said and done, there was no asking for a refund for all the expenses. Yikes... so it is about money and only money... BTW.. I never considered my paying for the check My Generosity.... it is just me picking up the check, it has no label other than that and also the money has no meaning in the date.. it is the act itself that has the meaning.. not the money I think you spend too much time worrying about the little things and that will stop you from getting the big things... Link to post Share on other sites
Curiousroxy86 Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 3. A few have posted that if they invite the other person, then they are prepared to pay for the drinks or meal. But, when was the last time a woman asked a man out? In most cases, it’s the man asking the woman out. So in keeping with that rule or logic, he has to pay the check. 4. This is one of my pet peeves, on the one hand it’s 2019 and everyone and their uncle is equal, on the other hand most women in my area at least are for some reason “traditional” when it comes to dating. It strikes me as a convenient carte blanch. One divorced woman outright told me that she’s not looking for anyone to feed her, that she can buy us both meals for an entire year. She just prefers to feel courted and that the man is taking care of her and showing her a good time. I didn’t bother asking her out after that conversation. 5. When I first meet a woman and by the end of the date I know that I don’t plan on seeing her again, I ask her to split the check. The ones that have taken advantage of my generosity were the ones who led me to believe they were interested in something serious or that they were into me, only to play games 3 or 4 dates in. By then, when it was all said and done, there was no asking for a refund for all the expenses. 3. I dont ask a man out. I do make suggestions on where we could go and what to do (because alot times they ask) after a man expresses desire to want to see me/want to see me again and I tend to try to make suggestions that I think he would also like depending on what I have gathered from getting to know him. I do offer to pay on the 3rd or 4th date my way and his way. I offer reciprocally/alternating after that. 4. you wont hear me say "its 2019/modern day society" . I am aware of what year and time it is. I also am aware on how attraction/desire works subconsciously for both men and women and the times haven't changed that one bit. universally what we (both men and women) find attractive outside of looks and confidence is that the person looks like they will add to our happiness and not take it away. that would include look like they wont be an emotional, financial, physical disaster to our well being. it is why we are attracted to people who are fit, who are smiling, women are attracted to men who are chivalrous, men are attracted to women who arent bat ish crazy....so people have different views on what certain actions mean. if a guy pays for a date a woman may think he is chivalrous, giving, considerate, likes women, a gentleman, someone who can do their part in finances depending on if the woman believes in also working or wants to be a stay at home mom...of course that action alone doesnt mean anything but its what it says about a person to who applies the meaning behind it. just like if a woman offers to pay you may think she is considerate, kind, understands and likes men, wont take advantage of him. people apply meanings to certain behaviors in dating that either contributes or takes away from the attraction. I personally think it does many a disservice to be such a stickler towards the person you are dating because of certain actions they take that really isnt a big deal simply because we dont really know whats behind someones personal dating rules and these rules dont mean that the person is a match made in hell until they actually show you that they are a match made in hell. I could assume that a guy who ask me out on date zero is stingy, lazy, doesnt like women, cheap, unemployed or in financial trouble, or isnt aware on how to keep a woman attracted ...but instead of assuming all these things and passing him up for it or cut him loose for it I instead go on the date (assuming his ways arent deal breakers for me) and get to know who he really is and then qualify him if he is match. I think its more rewarding to be forgiving in dating of others people idiosyncrasies. I recommend you do the same op. that divorced women said what she said and wasnt lying but it doesnt mean she was a gold digger. she could have been a woman who believe in taking care of her man just as much as she believes in a man taking care of her. just a thought. 5. in dating we risk putting in the time and effort to get to know each other in hopes something will come of it. some times..many times it does not. 3rd/4th date these women dont recipocate? or do you mean they take advantage in other ways because I know you mentioned playing games. that is always a risk with anybody who shows promise. I might meet a guy who call and take me out every week and find out the lil punk is married later when he told me he was single. so not much you can do with those who show promise at the beginning except hope they have no deal breaking red flags or hope that if they do have them that it is revealed sooner. thats just dating. good luck Edited June 14, 2019 by Curiousroxy86 Link to post Share on other sites
some_username1 Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 I'm throwing a last-century party at my house, and all you big, strong provider men are invited Fantastic! I can't wait to see what you've cooked for dinner because I'm starving. Oh, and my shirt is desperately in need of an iron 2 Link to post Share on other sites
BluEyeL Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 I know this isn’t a popular stance with men, but yeah, if you came out and said let’s go dutch at the first date, it would be a turn off. I see paying at the first date one of the way a man shows he wants to “court” me. I think they also should offer to pay. I always offered to pay but I only meant it if I did NOT like the guy and had no intention of seeing him again. Depending on the guy , I started taking turns as early as the second date and as late as the fourth. I don’t like going Dutch. I only do that with work colleagues, with men I’ve dated, we took turns. With my H, I only paid for once every 3 or 4 times because he seemed offended when I was trying to pay. I had to explain that it really makes me uncomfortable if I never pay. Although I make what can be considered a very good income, he hinted he was doing significantly better and that helped me feel less guilt But with a guy I’ve dated for 4 months and he was making less than half my income , always taking turns. Still didn’t pay at the first date. And he had to habit to suggest to split one meal between us. It was ok I could eat at home , it was more about being together than about eating . What’s interesting is that with him, I was always on alert to make sure he doesn’t try to take advantage of me, because I made more money , so I do understand the make perspective. I was ok splitting a meal for example but never said oh let’s just order two, I’ll pay . Of course he would say it’s about the calories but I knew it was about money. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
some_username1 Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Yeah, actually, of the women I've known, the "strong, independent, empowered" variety have had THE highest standards/requirements for the men they date in terms of what they expect him to bring to the table financially. It's the exception rather than the rule to find a woman who is really comfortable establishing a relationship with a man of lesser means. "Last century's rulebook," perhaps - just goes to show that it takes more than a few decades of social engineering to subvert human nature. It's getting there though, I notice that the younger women I date are all insistent on paying their way. Give it another 20 years you will be able to stick a fork in it because it will be done. The reason being is I think the provider stereotype is a relic for the older generation, young women are used to working and as such have missed out on the last vestiges of the era where men were still looked to to provide the main financial support. Plus there has been the shift to mortgages on anything bigger than a one-bed requiring 2 salaries. What percentage of married couples out there (particularly in the UK where housing is scandalously priced) can afford the mortgage payments for a family home on just one person's income? Economically speaking if this is common, or a normal scenario for a man to pay for a mortgage as well as household goods bills etc then the average wage would be much higher or housing would be much lower and (certainly in the UK) wages are low and housing is high. For the average family raising children is about struggle, sacrifice, both parents working and finding ways to offset childcare costs. So to me women hunting for a provider type are the same as those who want a rugby player physique or a guy over 6ft tall- they are a small percentage of the male population so you need to be exceptional to bag one. Sitting on your sofa eating Cheetos and binging on Netflix whilst demanding a provider isn't going to cut it. Link to post Share on other sites
OatsAndHall Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 The first two dates are always a crap shoot for me. About half of the women offer to pay for their portion while the other half are happy to let me do so. I've never viewed it as entitlement or anything like that. It's holding on to a cultural "norm"; fifteen-twenty years ago it was just expected that the guy pay for the date. And, "cheap" first dates were considered taboo back then as well; dinner and possibly a movie was a pretty standard date. It sounds to me like you have the same issue I do; the cost of the date. I have no issues with picking up a couple cups of coffee or ice cream on a first date. And I don't think a woman is asking much for me to do so. However, I'm not spending $50 on drinks for a first date and, as such, I don't ask women out for drinks. I know that I would personally be uncomfortable with a complete stranger spending $25+ dollars on me after a couple hours of conversation. Hell, I'm moving next wee and my closest friend here and his family gave me a $50 gift card yesterday and that made me a bit uncomfortable. I would suggest finding inexpensive and creative things to do in the first few dates. One of my go-to dates is to grab coffee or ice cream and then hang out at a local park/nature preserve. We drink our coffee/eat our ice cream, sit at a picnic table and chat. We usually end up going for a walk together as well. It's fun, it's relaxed and it certainly isn't going to break the bank. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 OAH, dating is pay to play Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Fantastic! I can't wait to see what you've cooked for dinner because I'm starving. Oh, and my shirt is desperately in need of an iron Like I said, I happily embrace the feminine role. I LOVE to cook for my man and truly enjoy taking care of him by washing, folding, and ironing his clothes, plus a whole lot more - I give an amazing full body massage that has every man moaning and groaning and singing my praises, as just one example I notice that the younger women I date are all insistent on paying their way. Give it another 20 years you will be able to stick a fork in it because it will be done. I did the same thing in my 20s, because I was brainwashed by "feminism" But eventually I wised up and let nature take its course. The reason being is I think the provider stereotype is a relic for the older generation, young women are used to working and as such have missed out on the last vestiges of the era where men were still looked to to provide the main financial support. Nice try. I've been working since I was 11 years old, supporting myself 100% since I was 17. Women will always select for strong provider men who make it easier to be a woman, raise babies, and do all the things our feminine nature has geared us to enjoy doing and do well. So to me women hunting for a provider type are the same as those who want a rugby player physique or a guy over 6ft tall- they are a small percentage of the male population so you need to be exceptional to bag one. Sitting on your sofa eating Cheetos and binging on Netflix whilst demanding a provider isn't going to cut it. Some of the provider types I've dated are tall and gorgeous, yes. Others have been not so tall and gorgeous. Any man of any size, shape, or appearance can be a provider. My older sisters in their 40s+, several of them actual former beauty queens, are still dating and some of them having babies with strong provider men. None of us sit around eating junk food and watching TV. We're all feisty, hard-working, smart women, exactly the kind that strong men love and love to provide for. Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Sounds like you're dating mostly traditional/conservative women. You could seek more liberal women (if they are available in your location), but they will have their own expectations. And given the posts I've read from you, OP, honestly I don't think you'll be a liberal woman's cup of tea either. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Kitty Tantrum Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Here's another thought I had, from my side of the hypothetical table, so to speak: whenever a guy seems concerned with his "return on investment" in dating, it makes me wonder - how many dates is this guy going on, that this is something he worries about? It's kinda like how some of my friends eat at restaurants so often that they start to feel the pinch when it comes time to pay the tip - not a ton of money in light of their typical expenses and lifestyles, but it adds up over dozens of meals within the same month, so they naturally get a little more stingy with their tips. The whole thing becomes more about managing their margins (paying as little as they can without being called out for being cheap) than enjoying a special experience. I would tend to assume that a guy who wants to go dutch is already going on a lot of dates and is kinda jaded. And probably isn't particularly interested in ME so much as he just sees me as another one in the pipeline. It would be a huge disparity of interest AND investment, because I wouldn't go on a date if I wasn't already interested. In the modern dating world I could see myself spending several hours (expense) getting ready for a date with a guy I liked, buying a new dress (expense), maybe actually wearing a little makeup (expense), etc... unless the guy is some kinda super metrosexual (which would also be a super deal breaker), I guarantee I've invested more time and money in the date from the outset than he has. For the express purpose of looking nice FOR HIM... and he shows up in whatever clothes he usually wears, having spent no more than 15-20 minutes washing his face and brushing his hair or whatever... and then he doesn't think it's "fair" that he should pay for dinner? Well shucks, if I'd known I was TAKING MYSELF OUT for dinner, I wouldn't have spent all that time and/or money trying to make a good impression... on myself. This whole "it's CURRENT YEAR and we do it this way now" thing is nonsense. Yeah, okay, so everything should be split down the middle BECAUSE EQUALITY... should I also expect to do half of the penetrating if we end up in the bedroom? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Logo Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 Yikes... so it is about money and only money... BTW.. I never considered my paying for the check My Generosity.... it is just me picking up the check, it has no label other than that and also the money has no meaning in the date.. it is the act itself that has the meaning.. not the money I think you spend too much time worrying about the little things and that will stop you from getting the big things... The refund was tongue-in-cheek, a joke. Link to post Share on other sites
OatsAndHall Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 OAH, dating is pay to play Lol... Then I don't play the game very well. I plan on the first three dates are going to be fun, low key, and inexpensive. A meal and a movie on the third is expensive as it gets for me. Maybe it's turned some women off and that's why they've disappeared but so be it. The woman that have stuck around and that I've had dated for awhile/had relationships with enjoyed those fun, creative dates and weren't looking for me to spend an exorbitant amount of money on dates. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Lol... Then I don't play the game very well. I plan on the first three dates are going to be fun, low key, and inexpensive. A meal and a movie on the third is expensive as it gets for me. Maybe it's turned some women off and that's why they've disappeared but so be it. The woman that have stuck around and that I've had dated for awhile/had relationships with enjoyed those fun, creative dates and weren't looking for me to spend an exorbitant amount of money on dates. if I take a good looking and educated woman out for coffee for the first date she will probably start singing the song "No Scrubs" by TLC 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Curiousroxy86 Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 @alpha :lmao: Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Here's another thought I had, from my side of the hypothetical table, so to speak: whenever a guy seems concerned with his "return on investment" in dating, it makes me wonder - how many dates is this guy going on, that this is something he worries about? I wouldn't go on a date if I wasn't already interested. I think the OP said he was talking about a first date specifically, with a person he's never met. Well shucks, if I'd known I was TAKING MYSELF OUT for dinner, I wouldn't have spent all that time and/or money trying to make a good impression... on myself. It's fine for you to prefer what you prefer, but IMO every adult should at the very least offer to pay for themselves. If the other person wants, they can insist on treating you. If they don't, you are well within your rights to be turned off and not want to go on a second date with them - compatibility is kind of important. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Kitty Tantrum Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 I agree with the sentiment that every adult should offer to pay their way, in virtually every situation aside from courtship. In courtship, I reject that notion and the entirety of the modern premise it's built on. Also if somebody gets invited out for their birthday - in my book it should be a safe assumption that their meal will be covered unless it's made really clear otherwise from the get-go. FWIW, I would certainly show up PREPARED to pay for myself if it came down to it, whether I'd met the person before or not. And I wouldn't make a fuss if I were asked (though I'd certainly take the asking or expecting as an indication that the guy didn't think my company was very worthwhile). But I would never offer. I'd only take the initiative to pay for myself if I were cutting the date short and not planning another one. The idea that "online dating" should necessarily dictate a specific dynamic or progression is silly, IMO. The beautiful thing about relationships is that we all get to set our own boundaries and expectations, right? There IS no "one size fits all." Different people have different kinds of relationships. Do what's acceptable for you. Some people will be on the same page, and some won't be. That's fine. It's really not so fine to make value judgments against people just for having different cultural norms and following different traditions than you do. Right, wrong, should, shouldn't... everyone better assimilate... I thought diversity, tolerance, acceptance, etc. were all the rage these days? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
FMW Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 the provider stereotype is a relic for the older generation I'm a 54 year old divorced woman. I always pay my own way until I get to know someone and know that their offer to pay doesn't come with any strings attached. I also enjoy being the one who pays for the guy sometimes. I can "provide" for myself quite well and don't want or need someone else to do it. Most of my single friends share my view. We probably wouldn't be friends with women who are looking for a "provider". 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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