Still in between

[major_merrick]

I grew up in a mixed household with two bad parents. My father was "nominally" a Christian, but definitely didn't live it. My mother is basically a pagan/heathen. What religious beliefs I did get were mixed. I also lived for a while in a commune, and the members had a mixed pagan/Christian/militant form of faith.

 

When I married my husband, I joined his community of faith. Most beliefs are based on the Bible. It isn't unfamiliar to me, but part of me still feels like I don't fully belong. For example, yesterday was the summer solstice. The Christian side of me had to treat as just another day. The not-so-Christian side of me wants to celebrate like I have in the past. Bonfires, family and friends, feasting, etc...

Of course, one of the biggest points of faith is to answer the question "what happens when you die?" On one hand, I have the Christian belief in heaven - a perfected place where the purpose of God's original creation is fulfilled. On the other hand, I used to hope for a brave death (ideally in combat) so I could go to Valhalla/Vyraj, where I get to feast, drink, and fight with the family and friends who have gone before me. To me, heaven seems a lot less enjoyable without wine and weapons.

 

What do I do with the two sides of myself? I have seen too much of God's work to believe in the pagan deities, yet I've not entered the Christian world enough to like the thought of a perfected heaven or forgiving your enemies. So what happens to the divided soul of a girl like me?

[alphamale]

So what happens to the divided soul of a girl like me?

 

you sit in purgatory until you figure out what you believe in

[major_merrick]

I suspect that only Catholics go to purgatory...

[alphamale]

I suspect that only Catholics go to purgatory...

 

probably but who knows for sure? maybe at death your soul will be turned into binary and saved in the iCloud?

[Osho]

Sounds like growing up on the fence you were taught to be very open minded. The best thing I’ve ever done to break out of Christian/religious identity was to learn about a plethora of religions.

 

I also traveled down a very odd path of learning a atheist mind frame. Then came back to learn that I didn’t identify as a atheist or agnostic. I once despised Catholicism from my younger years but now I accept all religions. It’s known as Omnism.

 

My point is that I can be completely comfortable in any church expressing my beliefs without offending others or being offended myself. All while never losing my own cores truths and beliefs..

 

I think it was Hinduism and Buddhism that really put everything together for me. I still lean towards reincarnation but really do find the same core lessons and beliefs to be along the same path among all religions.

[major_merrick]

Osho, it was a lot less about being openminded and more about having no real direction. I could never be an Omnist, because the tenets of many faiths are usually exclusive. For example, being Christian and being Buddhist don't go together no matter how many people wish for a combination. Most faiths have a worldview. My problem is that I have my own worldview, so "getting" another one just doesn't work.

 

I build my views on evidence and experience. I know there is a Creator because I see the world around me and the scientific evidence for how that world works indicates a supreme deity. I have also seen things that I could only describe as miracles. People getting healed by faith and prayer, impossible stuff happening, etc... Where I get lost is with the ideas of trust, faith, obedience, etc... I also have issues with the peace and love that so many people are looking for. I'm much more natural with a sword in my hand than flowers and a prayer book. Christianity states "those who live by the sword will die by the sword" as if that is a bad thing. For those of a more militant/pagan persuasion, it is more of an expectation. Hard to reconcile those two things.

 

Two things are making me think about this. My mother is in prison as a sex offender, and has terminal cancer - it is likely that she won't live to see the end of the year. For all the harm she has done in this world, I wonder what that means for her life after this life is over. I wonder what that change will mean for my life since my parents will both be dead. And, I'm about to give birth to my twins. It will be slightly higher risk than my last child, so my own mortality is on my mind.

 

The non-Christian side of me wants to hate my parents for what they did to me and my sister. I was relieved when I found out my father had died. Yet, the Bible tells me to forgive. Can't do both.

[eleanorrigby]

What do I do with the two sides of myself? I have seen too much of God's work to believe in the pagan deities, yet I've not entered the Christian world enough to like the thought of a perfected heaven or forgiving your enemies. So what happens to the divided soul of a girl like me?

 

I can relate a bit. I grew up in a Catholic family, but by the time I was born not many family members practiced anymore. My grandmother told me as a teen that she didn't believe in any of it, but it was what you had to do in her era.

She sent her kids to Catholic school, first communion, the whole shebang.

 

When I was a kid religion was strange for me. Every now and then my dad would send me to church with my step-sister, and she was part of the evangelical "holy rolling" variety. I couldn't stand to be there surrounded by people weeping, talking in tongues and sometimes rolling around on the floor.

 

The Catholic church was alright. I liked the churches and the atmosphere, but I got nothing from their message.

 

There were Jehovahs Witnesses who used to come by my house when I was a teen to proselytize to me. I liked the people, but not their religion.

They were not holy rolling but everything about it appeared joyless to me. They didn't celebrate anything, and as with all the other religions it was full of Gods rules for how he wanted me to live my life.

 

I spent time as a teen checking into various religions to see if there was one that appealed to me and none other than Bahai appeared tolerable, but I found that when all was said and done. I'm not religious, and never will be.

I can't believe in a God that hands me a set of rules to live by and if I don't comply he sends me to burn in fire and brimstone.

 

I can't believe in a God that is jealous, or wrathful, or upset that I don't love him or follow his instructions.

 

A God that petty, with all those mundane human emotions and reactions?

I can barely respect a person like that, let alone a force that created everything.

I think all of that crap was put into spiritual systems to just keep people under control, and I reject it.

 

I think I finally found my "people" within the pagan, the esoteric, the occult.

 

I resonate with the idea that I'm here to figure something(s) out. Live through something(s). I am God, experiencing myself, and will eventually go back to the source. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

[major_merrick]

Very interesting, Eleanor. What you found is somewhat like what I found for a while. "Do what thou wilt..." is something that feels good at times. I like the celebrations and the earthy, agricultural nature of Wicca, Asatru, and paganism - although each has a very different concept of deity. However, along with that I found leftist politics among some groups, and I've got issues with that.

 

I've been to Catholic churches, Lutheran churches, Baptist churches, and a few others. Some have a fire-breathing hateful version of God, others have a God who loves everybody and practically has no rules. The JW's and the Mormons seem to have no joy. The "holy rollers" seem to have no dignity. One church in my hometown actually descended into making animal noises and crazy laughter. I never attended, but I heard about it. That's just a bad image. And just like the pagans, there's politics. Right-wing, apple-pie-and-the-flag stuff. Often you'll see an American flag in those churches, like the church is an arm of the state, and Jesus votes Republican.

 

I read Scripture and I find something different. My community's God (my husband's God) is definitely emotional. A God that is patient and understanding, but with limits. A God with rules, but also with freedom of choice. I can't quite wrap my head around that duality. I like my community and I feel comfortable with the people, I'm still trying to understand and experience God for myself. I don't want to ask so many questions that I worry my husband, even though he tells me to ask him, ask our elders, or ask our apostle anything that crosses my mind. I like that kind of openness toward people who have doubts.

 

What makes me uneasy is that faith has huge consequences. Choose wrong, it affects your existence permanently after death. Also, there's consequences in this life. For example, my husband is the head of security for our community. What you believe definitely determines if/when/how force gets used, as that force exists in the name of God. Same thing with education. I'm a mom now, and I want to do the best job that I can for my kids.

[eleanorrigby]

What makes me uneasy is that faith has huge consequences. Choose wrong, it affects your existence permanently after death.

 

^^ This feeling is another reason why I eventually had to reject all religion.

As a younger person I used to "get saved" periodically because I had "sinned" in between savings and didn't want to get caught dead as a sinner and burn.

I started to resent a god that would punish me eternally for any reason.

The only rules a God could/would give me that made sense to me were the laws we all have to abide by in this dimension, gravity, death, entropy, etc.

 

Consequences, Karma, cause and effect make sense to me in this dimension.

They have a purpose. But I could never see a purpose or justification in punishment or purgatory for living the life I was placed here to live.

 

The only "punishment" that made sense to me was having to go through it all again until I "get it right" (whatever "getting it right" means for me, my sliver of the collective soul and not a set of human-based arbitrary rules)

[major_merrick]

Oddly, I've never thought of Christian heaven/hell as rewards or punishments. I've never really thought of God punishing me, mostly just offering choices. I always felt more neglected than rewarded or punished. Our community leaders teach that hell is more about the absence of relationship with God, and that the misery and fire you experience there is the result of all the people there making each other miserable. In other words, God isn't doing the punishing and isn't causing the suffering. The point is to either choose a relationship with Him or to choose not to have a relationship. The relationship is the goal, the good/bad you experience is a side effect.

 

 

The pagan side of me prefers Valhalla/Vyraj for an afterlife. Something that you can attain. Live a life with your community and folk in mind, and die honorably. Special reward for death in battle. It makes sense to me in the areas where heaven doesn't, and it almost makes deity irrelevant, or at least impersonal. Odin the All-Father seems much less personal and emotional, and thus more understandable.

 

 

I've never believed in Karma either. The whole idea of Karma is that if you do good things, good things come back to you. The real world seems totally opposite to me. The kind people I've known tend to suffer horrible fates. The nastier and more aggressive I am, the better things tend to turn out. When I'm kind or I forgive, I get burned. Part of my confusion is how do I reconcile that reality (that my nasty nature helps me survive) with a God who wants me to be friendly, forgiving, and kind? The world is backwards and the consequences don't match the action.

 

My husband talks to Jesus. Like, a real conversation. I don't get it - how do you talk to someone who doesn't talk back? I only catch him doing it sometimes in private, and it sounds like he's talking to a friend on the phone where you only hear one side of the conversation. I kind of want access to that, but I wonder if Jesus REALLY wants to have a relationship with everyone, or if He thinks of me as "that bad blonde" the way my mother-in-law does...

Edited June 23, 2019 by major_merrick

[mark clemson]

The point is to either choose a relationship with Him or to choose not to have a relationship. The relationship is the goal, the good/bad you experience is a side effect.

 

 

I believe in God for some of the same reasons as you apparently do. I've never put too much stock in the bible except as something for some folks to relate to (although I acknowledge it as one of the first and one of the most influential collections of texts on monotheism, which is important). And I also find the mixing of religion and politics (by both extreme right and extreme left) off-putting.

 

I would think that a relationship doesn't have to be by someone else's rules, except for the diety's as best you understand His intentions.

 

 

My husband talks to Jesus. Like, a real conversation. I don't get it - how do you talk to someone who doesn't talk back?

 

 

I tend to think of Jesus as a path to God, rather than a God or an actual aspect of God. Some Christians wouldn't agree, but as you point out there are many views/interpretations. I believe he said himself (IF you believe the bible) that he'd be at the right hand of God. Which is not the same thing as being God, IMO. I believe (possibly incorrectly) that he'd be disturbed at the concept of people worshiping him personally, as opposed to God. So, when people say they are speaking with Jesus, I see that as a stand-in for communicating with God.

 

I think some would say that people have a connection to God in their unconscious mind. This allows communication with Him and/or perceptions of His workings at some level. However it's an important caveat to this that any experiences get filtered and interpreted through one's conscious mind and therefore through one's prior beliefs, upbringing, biases, etc. In extreme cases this can explain why some folks who are religious and believe in a loving God can think they can/should kill gays or they're going to heaven for being a suicide bomber etc.

 

I personally doubt anyone's a "perfect" lens.

[Timshel]

 

 

 

 

 

I've never believed in Karma either. The whole idea of Karma is that if you do good things, good things come back to you. The real world seems totally opposite to me. The kind people I've known tend to suffer horrible fates. The nastier and more aggressive I am, the better things tend to turn out. When I'm kind or I forgive, I get burned. Part of my confusion is how do I reconcile that reality (that my nasty nature helps me survive) with a God who wants me to be friendly, forgiving, and kind? The world is backwards and the consequences don't match the action.

 

My husband talks to Jesus. Like, a real conversation. I don't get it - how do you talk to someone who doesn't talk back? I only catch him doing it sometimes in private, and it sounds like he's talking to a friend on the phone where you only hear one side of the conversation. I kind of want access to that, but I wonder if Jesus REALLY wants to have a relationship with everyone, or if He thinks of me as "that bad blonde" the way my mother-in-law does...

 

 

Being friendly, forgiving and kind is for you. Being this way becomes who you are, a part of you. It is good for other people but the person most effected is yourself. Being nasty and ready to kill someone takes away from your own joy, your own contentedness with the world around you.

 

There are no guarantees that cruel things won't happen; it's more that while you are here/alive on earth, you have a choice to live in fear or joy, be a light or a shadow.

It's a choice of who and how you will move through this life and the impression that is left when you walk out of a room and when you leave life.

 

 

Your husband talking to Jesus, lol. I talk to God all the time since as far back as I can remember, since I was a girl. It's called prayer. I've always known that my words were heard and yes, God is my best friend because I don't have to say a word. A particular religion is not necessary.

 

 

'He thinks of me as that bad blonde.'

I have thoughts about immigration in the United States and overall think that we should close our borders. When I ask myself what Jesus would do, Jesus would say that borders, walls keeping things as though they belong to us is wrong.

There is enough for every person, the earth has always had enough and we have always been enough.

The desire for countries, states, properties, personal wealth, an accumulation of earth in disregard of others is our own.

 

This is humanity and God is not to be blamed.

[GoodOnPaper]

I kind of want access to that, but I wonder if Jesus REALLY wants to have a relationship with everyone, or if He thinks of me as "that bad blonde" the way my mother-in-law does...

 

Yes, yes, YES to the bolded! The four Gospels are literally riddled with accounts about how Jesus sought out contact and relationships with the people who were held in the most contempt by the religious authorities of the time! Mary Magdalene the prostitute is given the most honored position of all - she is the one who discovered that Jesus had risen from the dead!

 

Our minds and hearts are so locked into the idea that we have to do certain things or behave in certain ways to receive God's blessing (or Karma's or destiny's, etc.) that we don't truly grasp the unique and revolutionary idea behind Christianity - that Jesus's death and resurrection paid the debt for any sin we committed or will commit in the future.

 

About your husband's prayer life - to have something similar, it requires some discipline and effort on your part. (Full disclosure, I feel like I'm at square 1 myself on that.) Not because you have to "earn" God's presence, but it's just how the process works. The story of Moses and the burning bush is actually a map of how people seek God. God sends you a sign - an event, observation, or even just a nagging thought - that you take notice of. Then you make an effort and start to investigate.

 

And by the way, who says you can't celebrate your Christian faith with bonfires, feasting and family? In the Bible, the books of Acts and Galatians cover pretty thoroughly the fact that Jesus wipes out the Old Testament Jewish cultural and civic laws. Everything distills down to basically the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule. In fact, a big reason why Christianity has spread throughout the world in such a convincing fashion is because it accommodates an amazing variety of cultures and customs.

[Justanaverageguy]

My father was "nominally" a Christian, but definitely didn't live it.

Unfortunately this is quite normal regardless of which religion you grow up in. People generally try their best - but life is long and challenging and living a life of perpetual love is a difficult thing to master in this world.... unless you have a direct connection with the big guy upstairs.

 

My mother is basically a pagan/heathen. .... Most beliefs are based on the Bible. It isn't unfamiliar to me, but part of me still feels like I don't fully belong. For example, yesterday was the summer solstice. The Christian side of me had to treat as just another day. The not-so-Christian side of me wants to celebrate like I have in the past. Bonfires, family and friends, feasting, etc...

 

You realize that both Christmas and Easter celebrations are aligned with the winter Solstice and the first full moon following the spring equinox ? Christianity never shied away from recognizing these key dates and they were certainly celebrated traditionally - they simply didnt assign pagan "deities" to these events and instead symbolically aligned them with the key events of Jesus life. Namely his birth - and death and resurrection.

 

Spring obviously symbolizing new life (spiritual resurrection)- and Jesus birth symbolizing the movement away from darkness (winter solstice). In germany they actually have bonfires specifically to celebrate Easter quite similar to pagan events called Easter Fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Fire

 

I think what is important here to differentiate between is - the "ritual" aspect of the religion .... vs what these rituals symbolize and the beliefs that actually underpin them. Because to be honest Christianity is pretty flexibile when it comes to the ritual side of things as you can see from the plethera of different denominations and practices. Its simply the core beliefs that are important.

 

One of the things I really struggled with which lead me away from the church and even belief in god for a time ...... was never really connecting with the somber, solemn, ridgid almost mechanical unfeeling way the catholic church practiced mass. There was no life in the service. Eventually though I found my way back to god and have simply found a different denomination and church which was more aligned to my taste and preference for how connecting with God, Worshipping etc could take place. Its the same medicine .... just in a form I find easier to digest if that makes sense. I think you might find if your open minded some of the practices and ritual and communal aspects you enjoy from the pagan side can be easily married with the christian belief system

 

I've never believed in Karma either. The whole idea of Karma is that if you do good things, good things come back to you. The real world seems totally opposite to me. The kind people I've known tend to suffer horrible fates. The nastier and more aggressive I am, the better things tend to turn out. When I'm kind or I forgive, I get burned. Part of my confusion is how do I reconcile that reality (that my nasty nature helps me survive) with a God who wants me to be friendly, forgiving, and kind? The world is backwards and the consequences don't match the action.

 

This may sound a little bit hollow if you've experienced the negative feedback from your past actions while watching others get away scott free - but from my experience - God disciplines those he loves. Yes sounds cliche and maybe even counter intuitative at first. But it is done specially as a course correction - a learning tool - to bring you back to making healthy karmic choices. The more deeply you understand what is right - the higher the negative consequences for misdeeds. Thus in this context what you have said above makes perfect sense. Because if Karma - or reeping what you sow is the way reality works .... not being corrected or getting your karmic comeuppance .... is definitely not a good sign. Your essentially being left undirected and uncorrected and allowed to continue on the wrong path of accumulating huge negative debt. Christianity references this as God allowing people to - "store up wrath for themselves" which if your playing the long game .... is not a good thing. If you get no correction - basically god has abandoned you to live out your own selfish desires and the inevitable horrible end that leads to.

 

Swift and painful correction in this life is generally a sign you are on the right path. They call it the upside down kingdom for a reason

Edited July 17, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[mark clemson]

Hi, M_M -

 

Just a follow up - I guess my thought is that what's most important, more so than the specific rituals and trappings or even really the specifics of the belief system (except in extreme or harmful cases), is the sincerity of your belief/faith in and connection with the deity. Fostering that connection is what really counts the most in all of this, IMO.

[major_merrick]

About your husband's prayer life - to have something similar, it requires some discipline and effort on your part.

 

 

 

God sends you a sign - an event, observation, or even just a nagging thought - that you take notice of. Then you make an effort and start to investigate.

 

 

The thing is, I don't really see signs or have much in the way of nagging thoughts. Nothing new, anyways. Other people see God at work in life's events, and I look at it and see rational explanations for most of it. And people of faith find that tendency quite annoying.

 

 

One of the things I really struggled with which lead me away from the church and even belief in god for a time ...... was never really connecting with the somber, solemn, ridgid almost mechanical unfeeling way the catholic church practiced mass. There was no life in the service.

 

 

Thankfully, our Sunday services aren't like that. I've attended various kinds of churches in my life looking for whatever it is that everybody is looking for. I've seen Catholic Mass, traditional and modern Lutheran worship, Baptist and Pentecostal services, and probably a couple of others that I've forgotten. What gets me about all of them is that there's an unwritten code of behavior. God forbid there be a bit of affection between partners or the kids get too loud. Most Sundays, either I'm sitting in my husband's lap or Wife #1 is. The flies buzz and the kids squirm and the babies scream and the donkey in the pen out back usually adds its braying to the hymns. Somehow it all ends up being OK.

 

 

Hi, M_M -

 

Just a follow up - I guess my thought is that what's most important, more so than the specific rituals and trappings or even really the specifics of the belief system (except in extreme or harmful cases), is the sincerity of your belief/faith in and connection with the deity. Fostering that connection is what really counts the most in all of this, IMO.

 

 

True. And what I'm trying to figure out is...where does that connection come from. I see how other people have a connected relationship and I find that puzzling. Most of the time, my own personal experience with God puts me closer to being in the Deist category.

[Justanaverageguy]

True. And what I'm trying to figure out is...where does that connection come from. I see how other people have a connected relationship and I find that puzzling. Most of the time, my own personal experience with God puts me closer to being in the Deist category.

 

Well if your a christian or at least attending Christian services .... Jesus explained specifically how to establish that connection. Generally speaking it may come as "grace" to those experiencing great pain, loss, grief where the spirit comes to heal and release suffering .... but outside of that the only way to establish a real and lasting connection with god .... and by that I mean to have his living spirit take up residence within your body - he outlined here ->

 

https://biblehub.com/john/14-23.htm

 

To put it simply its through obedience to his commandments and teachings and doing his will on earth. To love, serve and help others in need Not so sexy sounding .... but once you experience god for the first time .... its like nothing else on this planet.

 

I don't care if you've tried drugs, if sexual orgasm is your ultimate high ...... any and all other pleasure seeking activities on this earth all pale into insignificance ...... None of them comes within the same area code of an experience with the holy spirit. Its next level bliss and love on a scale you didn't know was possible or even existed until you experience it. Divine love is not of this earth but from heaven itself - but to experience it requires as Jesus put it - for you to - "deny yourself - take up your cross and follow me"

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16%3A24-26&version=ESV

 

God is up front that connection with him is going to cost you something. The symbol of Christianity is a cross ..... its not a crown and if it is a crown its one of thorns. He never hides or disguises the fact that the moment you walk through the door you have to pay something in order to receive promotion in his kingdom. You have to go through the refinement process - which is often painful - in order to receive his promise.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[mark clemson]

True. And what I'm trying to figure out is...where does that connection come from. I see how other people have a connected relationship and I find that puzzling. Most of the time, my own personal experience with God puts me closer to being in the Deist category.

 

 

Then that is the nature of your connection. My suggestion would be to accept it for what it is and nurture/develop it as best you can. My belief is it's likely to evolve over time (but I could certainly be wrong on that).

 

Hope you are enjoying the babies, BTW? Congrats are in order?

[major_merrick]

The new babies are interesting. Not as quiet as the one born last year, and having three is a challenge. My twins are almost two weeks old already! I can't believe how time flies.

[mark clemson]

Congrats then M_M! Hope you have a great first year with them.

[Ronni_W]

My mother is basically a pagan/heathen.

'Pagan' only means also recognizing the various and multitude Aspects of God...as long as one accepts the One True Father-Mother God that heads all of the other 'minor' gods...

...who really are only aspects of the One True God.

 

Current Christian beliefs are only those concepts and ideas that were adopted and made into 'dogma and doctrine' by the Romans when they wanted to maintain their hold over all of the peoples

who opposed them at the beginning of the then-current Age, the Age of Pisces. It mostly has nothing at all to do with the actual Will, Vision and Plan of God for the race of the peoples of Earth.

Of course, one of the biggest points of faith is to answer the question "what happens when you die?" On one hand, I have the Christian belief in heaven - a perfected place where the purpose of God's original creation is fulfilled. On the other hand, I used to hope for a brave death (ideally in combat) so I could go to Valhalla/Vyraj, where I get to feast, drink, and fight with the family and friends who have gone before me.

The idea of 'a brave death' and going to 'Valhalla' is the exact same as dying in some state of consciousness that will result in a reward, in Heaven, of '72 virgins in Paradise'...

...no matter under what religion one desires or aspires to it, it is still not in accordance with the Will and Law of the One True God...whose Nature, Vision and Plan can be discerned

through the teachings and model of the Christian prophet known as 'Jesus of Nazareth' or 'Jesus Christ'.

 

When we do properly understand Jesus' Message, which is the same as Christ's message (although the two are not one and the same),

then our enemies will be clearly recognized as being not external to our self.

So what happens to the divided soul of a girl like me?

"If a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand"...which only means that you will stay on the 'wheel of birth and rebirth' (reincarnation) until you bring your Soul into unity with the Will of God

and Law of God.

 

Keeping yourself 'still in-between' is the same as staying in the middle of the road instead of making the decision to travel on one or another of the paths of the Middle Way

(of which there are many, under every true religion). Putting it on your father or mother or husband does not mitigate.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Ronni_W
Clarification.