Really good date

[ZA Dater]

Why would you think this is a difficult question?

 

There’s nothing wrong with asking that on the first date. But you don’t want to be judgmental about her choice!

 

I was being sarcastic with reference to certain posters who apparently think I ask inappropriate questions on dates. One ting you will be amazed at is how poorly that question is answered usually, there is often no passion in the response, no excitement which to me is quite telling.

 

Sure, we don't like our jobs all the time but at least they could show some enthusiasm.

[JuneL]

One ting you will be amazed at is how poorly that question is answered usually, there is often no passion in the response, no excitement which to me is quite telling.

 

 

Before I let other posters continue, let me give you a gentle reminder: The only person you can control is you. Are you sure the above doesn’t apply to you?

 

p.s. I’ll give you credit for the first sentence though (making light of the situation)!

Edited July 17, 2019 by JuneL

[ZA Dater]

Before I let other posters continue, let me give you a gentle reminder: The only person you can control is you. Are you sure the above doesn’t apply to you?

 

p.s. I’ll give you credit for the first sentence though (making light of the situation)!

 

Absolutely it does apply to me when I sit down and it becomes I have made a big mistake to go on the date to begin with! If I cant connect with the person then yes I am about as enthusiastic as a lizard sun tanning on a rock.

 

This lady did bring out my enthusiasm because she challenged me, she was enthusiastic so it was easy for me to get out from under my shell and be the person I know I am but don't show that often because the risk I take is the other person might feel intimidated which sounds arrogant but isn't meant to be.

 

This date made me really feel alive, I had to raise my game to compete which was great. There is a certain thrill to this for me and its one of things which make me happy.

Edited July 17, 2019 by ZA Dater

[JuneL]

Absolutely it does apply to me when I sit down and it becomes I have made a big mistake to go on the date to begin with! If I cant connect with the person then yes I am about as enthusiastic as a lizard sun tanning on a rock.

 

This lady did bring out my enthusiasm because she challenged me, she was enthusiastic so it was easy for me to get out from under my shell and be the person I know I am but don't show that often because the risk I take is the other person might feel intimidated which sounds arrogant but isn't meant to be.

 

This date made me really feel alive, I had to raise my game to compete which was great. There is a certain thrill to this for me and its one of things which make me happy.

 

And you think she didn’t know she had to bring you out of your shell? What did you do on those boring dates to bring the lady out of her shell? Oh wait, it’s not your responsibility

[elaine567]

And you think she didn’t know she had to bring you out of your shell?

 

...and that is probably the issue.

I have had such conversations with some people and eventually they do come out of their shell if I am in the mood to persist, but it is hard work and it is not something I really want to do every day. Afterwards I rarely remember the "good bit", I do remember the hard work it took to get there though...

ZA Dater you have to practice being out of your shell from the get go and hit the ground running.

If people are having to prise you out of your shell, then that is the bit they will remember too.

[schlumpy]

ZA Dater you have to practice being out of your shell from the get go and hit the ground running.

If people are having to prise you out of your shell, then that is the bit they will remember too.

 

Elaine I apologize in advance for using you as my foil but didn't you notice what happens when ZA comes out form his shell? _ "so it was easy for me to get out from under my shell and be the person I know I am but don't show that often because the risk I take is the other person might feel intimidated which sounds arrogant but isn't meant to be."

 

I read that as a bright, blinding light suddenly being revealed to the wonder of all who are present.

 

I can't say I've had to pull my sunglasses out during this discourse but I do now suspect that I've been talking with a man who believes that he is not a member of MENSA simply because they could not rise to his lofty standards.

 

Best Wishes

[JuneL]

^^^ Oh, I thought this has been one recurring theme.

 

He was the one who brought up the Great Gatsby and brought up biographies, and yet his part of the conversation was dull and elusive.

[preraph]

I'd be careful about finding a woman who will debate you, though, because I have an acquaintance like that and the trouble is, he can never be wrong. Which makes him very unpopular indeed to the general populace. He's an oddball who goes and finds things on the internet that will validate his crazy opinions is all.

[JuneL]

I'd be careful about finding a woman who will debate you, though, because I have an acquaintance like that and the trouble is, he can never be wrong. Which makes him very unpopular indeed to the general populace. He's an oddball who goes and finds things on the internet that will validate his crazy opinions is all.

 

^^^ You’re describing ZA Dater, I’m afraid

[ZA Dater]

...and that is probably the issue.

 

If people are having to prise you out of your shell, then that is the bit they will remember too.

 

I think I need to expand on this, I can pretty much tell instantly if this is a person I can be myself with. I am far more outgoing than I was before when I went on dates, before I was nervous and hardly laughed, now I am not really that nervous because for the most part I know the outcome anyway so there isn't that stress to try and not mess the whole date up.

 

 

A good example of this is when I ask someone about their work, if they really give me a comprehensive answer that's great and the conversation can realty flow but if its one or two words then the conversation doesn't really work, this applies to all topics really. I just feel a lot more confident when a conversation flows and topics sort of flow off each other rather than having to go from topic to topic trying to get the person to actually speak.

[ZA Dater]

feel intimidated which sounds arrogant but isn't meant to be."

 

 

 

Sorry to have to break this to you but apathetic people rarely enjoy being shown up as apathetic so I'd rather not do that to someone and rather them mumble along with topics which aren't ones which open up any form of debate and don't need any opinion.

[JuneL]

 

A good example of this is when I ask someone about their work, if they really give me a comprehensive answer that's great and the conversation can realty flow but if its one or two words then the conversation doesn't really work, this applies to all topics really. I just feel a lot more confident when a conversation flows and topics sort of flow off each other rather than having to go from topic to topic trying to get the person to actually speak.

 

You’re describing yourself

[ZA Dater]

Most people walking this earth aren't desperate, bitter 35 year old virgins.

 

A final word about therapists and dating coaches- I have no clue if they would work for you- or if they work for anyone. Other than your one trial with a "dating coach" who was probably just a scammer, you haven't really tried. As far as therapists go, if you find a good one, it can help but but I suspect you'd be wasting your money because you need to be flexible, openminded, and willing and able to listen to what they have to say, and modify your behavior and thinking.

 

The ONLY reason I suggest dating coaches and therapy is because you've got serious problems, and that calls for desperate measures. It might not work, but just like a homeless guy buying a lottery ticket, it's the only chance you've got. Posting ad-nauseum on relationship forums year after year and blaming women for your failures, and changing your conversation topics isn't going to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone can "act different", or lie, or post fake pictures, or otherwise pretend to be someone other than they are. Happens all the time, it's even got a name "bait and switch". So what, you pretended and you were good at it. Did it get you anywhere? Of course not or you wouldn't still be here complaining.

 

You bring up some good points here, except every single guy I know is guilty of being a chameleon to lesser and greater degrees, the amount of fake charm I have seen is nauseating, the nonsense stories elicit the same reaction in me. Yet I go on a date, as me, weaknesses and all and well I got passed over. Which really just tells me one thing, women like the chameleon act, prefer it over honesty. When dates have gone badly, the last thing I usually say is "Well as you can see I am terrible at dates", its honest and the reactions are all the same....NEXT.

 

Seemingly dating is a game of questionable honesty, tell a good story even if its fake, behave in a way that captivates, even if its not you. Go to places you don't like because well everyone else goes to them.

 

I don't think I have serious problems in the grand scheme of life, I can walk, I can run, I can talk, I have things I enjoy so no I don't think I have any really serious problems. The minor problem I have is I don't see things like people here want me to see them, I don't see dating as the game everyone says it is, I don't find dating fun, I don't find anything about dating remotely positive, its a means to companionship but is it really if you have to compromise so heavily you land up just settling with the first person who will accept you. No if I did that I'd have a serious problem.

 

My thinking might be out of step with society but that doesn't make it wrong, what is wrong are people who cannot accept thinking different from their own, I accept you are the one dating and getting laid, good for you but what works for you might not work for me and that's the be all and end of dating coaches, not everyone is the same so what works for one wont work for all.

 

No, if I accomplish nothing at dating that's fine and if every person I meet respects me and my thinking then I have accomplished all I need to. Many times I compromised on dates but I have never seen such compromise extended to me, a simple "I don't see this working" is fine but people wont say that because it means that need to take a position on something and in 2019 nobody takes positions they march along following some apparent norm without even bothering to question it.

 

So yes if I am the one, one of many standing outside the candy store, vicariously living by looking in then so be it, at least I know I keep trying even if I wont have any success, I still get the challenge of trying, that cant be taken away.

[ZA Dater]

You’re describing yourself

 

Well last time I checked you don't live anywhere near me and your aren't a potential date so please tell me what is the issue?

 

Or did I expect me to wax lyrical about the books I have read, the ones I hated, the ones I did enjoy and the ones I dropped mid way?

 

I did have to read through a 175 page sale of business agreement earlier, such fun these are with such lovely flowerily language but hey that's not exactly date material is it, people care about what interests them and what doesn't is irrelevant. When a guy sits in front of them and he doesn't conform its easy to dismiss, well because its easier in life to fit in than actually bother to be ones own person. Everyday I see examples of people conforming because they feel they need to.

 

You can ask yourself many questions each day but the most important one is simple 'Why". Do me a favour and do this for one day and see if you look at everything the same way you did before.

[normal person]

You bring up some good points here, except every single guy I know is guilty of being a chameleon to lesser and greater degrees, the amount of fake charm I have seen is nauseating,

 

Everyone dates with their best foot forward, but the majority of people don't resort to outright lies. You're misrepresenting things. Yes, no one likes a liar, but it's also expected that people expend a little effort trying to portray the best versions of themselves.

 

Yet I go on a date, as me, weaknesses and all and well I got passed over. Which really just tells me one thing, women like the chameleon act, prefer it over honesty.

 

No, people -- women especially -- aren't attracted to weakness. It's a survival of the fittest, the weak are the first to get passed over. Honesty is great if the things you're being honest about are themselves advantageous or refreshing somehow. Not so much if they reveal things about you that are unflattering. The solution isn't to lie about, or withhold them indefinitely, it's probably some combination of working to improve those qualities and finding a partner that will deal with or appreciate the fact that you're working to improve them. Having a problem and being complacent with it is a lot less attractive than having a problem and actively working to fix it.

 

 

Seemingly dating is a game of questionable honesty, tell a good story even if its fake, behave in a way that captivates, even if its not you. Go to places you don't like because well everyone else goes to them.

 

I think it's time for you to drop this thought that the only way to be successful is to be a liar. You know it's fantasy. It does nothing to the discussion and all it does is try to frame you as some virtuous do-gooder whose lack of a success is solely a product of everyone else's lying and deceit and not because of your own inability or unwillingness. If you keep harping on it as you have for years you'll continue to not have success. Why not tell a good true story? Surely in your 35 years you've got at least one. That will make you captivating in a way that isn't disingenuous. I was at a wedding not long ago and there was a very studious, "nerdy," guy there who talked with enough enthusiasm about physics and his job that everyone at the table wanted to hear more. And sometimes restaurants are just popular because the food is good. Not everything is a lie. Enough of this, already.

 

So yes if I am the one, one of many standing outside the candy store, vicariously living by looking in then so be it, at least I know I keep trying even if I wont have any success, I still get the challenge of trying, that cant be taken away.

 

You've signed off a post with something like this -- insisting how content you are with the situation -- at least a dozen times, usually 10+ pages deep in a thread about how much you dislike the situation. Are you just lying to yourself? Is this actually how you see the dating landscape? So cut and dry? Everyone successful is a manipulative liar and you're so much happier being single if it means you don't lie? Enough. It's not an accurate representation of reality, it's just a childish deflection from your actual issues, which probably could be improved upon if you first swallowed your pride on this stuff already. Ask your married friends and family if they they lied egregiously when meeting their partner and see if it's the case, then reconsider everything you've written.

[MaleIntuition]

I think I need to expand on this, I can pretty much tell instantly if this is a person I can be myself with. I am far more outgoing than I was before when I went on dates, before I was nervous and hardly laughed, now I am not really that nervous because for the most part I know the outcome anyway so there isn't that stress to try and not mess the whole date up.

 

 

A good example of this is when I ask someone about their work, if they really give me a comprehensive answer that's great and the conversation can realty flow but if its one or two words then the conversation doesn't really work, this applies to all topics really. I just feel a lot more confident when a conversation flows and topics sort of flow off each other rather than having to go from topic to topic trying to get the person to actually speak.

 

So after many trials and errors of not conforming and constantly asking the why’s of this world you’ve figured out that “good chemistry” is a thing.

 

(Although this could of course simply have been a consequence of her excellent social skills - the ability to make almost any conversation and topics flow by making connections and reading people)

 

Oh, you are always yourself, by the way.

[basil67]

When it comes to books I prefer history and biographies over fiction and apparently self help. At the moment I am enjoying re looking at Russian history from the late 1800's to the fall of the royal family. There is a fairly good series on at the moment which covers this in an interesting way.

 

I love history too. I love a well researched fictional novel which allows me to transport myself and I also enjoy non-fiction. The most recent non-fiction history I read was The Butchering Art which discusses surgery from the Victorian era and takes us through the discovery of germ theory and the resistance of the surgeons at the time. Very gory and utterly fascinating.

 

I don't know a lot about Russian history, but would love to learn more. I have an ancestor who is Russian Jew. He escaped Latvia hidden under hay in a wagon in the 1880's to avoid being conscripted to the Czar's army. I'd love to know more about the history of this time and why he would have chosen to escape. Can you suggest anything which is relatively easy to read? I'm not good with academic writing.

[jspice]

I’ve never been more successful in dating than when I’ve been myself.

 

When I’m just going about my business ( and having a bad hair day) is when I get the most attention.

 

This notion that all people who date are manipulative is irritating and untrue.

I’ve been single for about 5 years because I’m not comfortable with my life right now but when I’m ready, I’m damn sure not going to pretend anything.

 

It’s too exhausting to pretend. You surround yourself with the same ten people and take what they say and do as gospel.

 

The next time your club members ask where your date is, instead of being lame, say “Hey, do you know a nice girl you can introduce me to?” Not in a desperate way but lighthearted.

Then you’ll be with who you consider to be your peer. You’ll have no excuses this time when the date fails.

[ZA Dater]

Everyone dates with their best foot forward, but the majority of people don't resort to outright lies. You're misrepresenting things. Yes, no one likes a liar, but it's also expected that people expend a little effort trying to portray the best versions of themselves.

 

 

Best version versus the truthful version? The irony is its these very misrepresentations which seem to impress women so much. I might be dateless but I know enough people who can get dates to know they do a remarkable amount of misrepresentation to get some of those dates.

 

"Honesty is great if the things you're being honest about are themselves advantageous " Ok so one need indulge in selective honesty, manipulation in other words. Why not just be honest stop, surely if the person seems a good person why would it matter if he has never dated?

 

Irony is huge in some respects, sure work to improve things but would be helpful if people were honest about what needed to be improved.

 

Its pretty pointless talking with enthusiasm about a subject people are interested in, trust me no date of mine barring this one was actually interested in talking about American politics and the political situation in the middle east. So I can talk with as much enthusiasm as I like about these topics its a fruitless exercise.

 

Sure I can tell I run a fairly exclusive car club, I can tell them about events I arrange but again what is the point they cant relate to this and aren't interested. The guy who can sit and talk banter about lots of arbitrary random nonsense things will be taking her home, not me. Eventually I just stopped telling any story at all, unless I could find someone who would like the story.

 

I believe it is pretty cut and dry because ironically I have always done what you have preached here for years, looked at successful daters and tried to understand why they are successful, each

 

1: misrepresents to lesser of greater degrees

2: has charm

3: the ability to indulge in apparently fun banter about nothing at all.

4: the ability to flirt

5: huge levels of confidence

 

So yes I would contend that dating isn't really an honest game, at least initially, lie enough to get the person to like you and then reverse those lies subtly in a way they don't really care because they have got to know you and like the core of what you are. I have no doubt there is a degree of manipulating involved.

 

I concede some people need to manipulate less than other, usually they have fantastic good looks or something else that makes them a better value proposition in the dating world, it was you after all who preached this value thing.

[elaine567]

Sure I can tell I run a fairly exclusive car club, I can tell them about events I arrange but again what is the point they cant relate to this and aren't interested. The guy who can sit and talk banter about lots of arbitrary random nonsense things will be taking her home, not me.

 

Ok but many women are not really interested in cars, no matter how exclusive, and most women want a companion, not some guy who spends his life(when not working) organising a car club for a load of very well off older married middle aged men... a bundle of laughs...

You can't even afford one of these cars.

How does she see herself slotting into that scene?

She doesn't, hence the disinterest.

 

It is also not black and white, there is not "you" against a load of guys who speak nonsense and lie.

There is "you" against men who are in fact objectively better than you in all kinds of different ways... that is the bottom line.

Women vote with their feet.

Not all of these men, women find attractive, are losers and liars and idiots...

They are usually honest, decent, intelligent, interesting and "father/husband" material.

You need to acknowledge, not dismiss the competition out of hand as if you are so obviously superior to other men... and "women" are in general so stupid they cannot see it.

[ZA Dater]

Not all of these men, women find attractive, are losers and liars and idiots...

They are usually honest, decent, intelligent, interesting and "father/husband" material.

You need to acknowledge, not dismiss the competition out of hand as if you are so obviously superior to other men... and "women" are in general so stupid they cannot see it.

 

 

 

You missed the inherent point. Most women don't like anyone who doesn't conform to a certain stereotype. Never said I was superior, I can tell you an am intellectually superior to a lot of those sort of chameleon men. Put me around a dinner table with them and usually its one way traffic is any sort of debate happens.

 

 

You think I pick ladies to which I am likely to face lot of competition, definitely not, I tend to go for the more unusual type of lady, not the one you find dancing on the table at 2;30am.

 

 

Women appear to like a good story no matter how false, even I did this experiment once and it was truly remarkable.

 

 

Again, either I feel bad about this whole dating thing or I simply accept I might get the odd good date which ultimately goes nowhere, those are the choices I have. The former doesn't benefit me at all, the latter, well that at least I can tick of a box marked "good date" even if the outcome isn't another "good date".

 

 

I believe the level of success one finds at dating is pretty much determined by how well one fits in, if you don't well then you wont really have much success.

 

 

The common consensus here seems to be I capitulate (use that word on a date and see the blank stares) and simply fall in line and conform even if I am not that sort of person, why cant women appreciate someone who is different?

 

 

Is it so bad to be different?

 

 

Sure they don't enjoy sitting with enormously successful people, I don't enjoy sitting in clubs and bars watching people drink too much for no apparent reason than society mandates one must drink to have a good time.

 

 

No, I'd wager most women are more interested in a good time than a good guy.

[Trail Blazer]

Best version versus the truthful version?

 

1: misrepresents to lesser of greater degrees

2: has charm

3: the ability to indulge in apparently fun banter about nothing at all.

4: the ability to flirt

5: huge levels of confidence

 

So yes I would contend that dating isn't really an honest game, at least initially, lie enough to get the person to like you and then reverse those lies subtly in a way they don't really care because they have got to know you and like the core of what you are. I have no doubt there is a degree of manipulating involved.

 

I concede some people need to manipulate less than other, usually they have fantastic good looks or something else that makes them a better value proposition in the dating world, it was you after all who preached this value thing.

"All's fair in love and war" apparently. In other words, someone coined some proverbial justification for behaving like a complete jerk. To that, there are degrees. How far must one go in order to achieve one's objective? How much of a jerk is someone prepared to be? I suppose it's relative to how much they need to be to achieve that objective.

 

You're the kind of dude I would enjoy sitting around for hours, enjoying a few drinks and having a really engaging conversation with. But you know what? I'm not going to sleep with you, so that discussion would be useless in the context of getting laid.

 

You need to pander to your audience. If you stay rigid in your own hubris, you'll never get anywhere with women. Now, I don't advocate for selling yourself out... not by a long shot. But you've got to be somewhat flexible. Even women who are more of the intellectual types don't necessarily want to talk about politics on a first date. Women are women no matter how smart or dumb... they get off on how you make them feel.

 

My dating experience over the last couple of months has been interesting. I'm liberated from the care of landing a girlfriend. I don't want a relationship. I'm now essentially what you can call a jerk. But I do everything I can to read the person I'm conversing with. Instead of pig-headedly refusing to target my behavior to be receptive to her, I do the opposite. I don't lie, I tune in and feed the parts of me that are true, which I think she'll be most receptive to.

 

There's no instruction manual for how to execute a good date. My suggestion is to define who you are, then go about behaviors which will result in you archiving your objective. If it's to get laid, then adjusting what makes you tick the most in order to pique receptors which will make her want to be with you isn't that hard.

 

The way I look at is like this; you go to work in order to earn a living and enable yourself to do the things in life that really matter to you. How you go about doing it doesn't define who you are. It's behavior that's usually a means to an end. The same goes with dating. Being yourself really comes down to deciding how little you want to be yourself in the moment, in order to achieve your outcome. At the moment you're refusing to budge, ultimately cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Edited July 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[ZA Dater]

"All's fair in love and war"

The way I look at is like this; you go to work in order to earn a living and enable yourself to do the things in life that really matter to you. How you go about doing it doesn't define who you are. It's behavior that's usually a means to an end. The same goes with dating. Being yourself really comes down to deciding how little you want to be yourself in the moment, in order to achieve your outcome. At the moment you're refusing to budge, ultimately cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

Sure, I do tailor my approach to my audience but not the extent that I project something inherently false. The bottom line is if I need to be inherently false to achieve any objective then the objective isn't worth achieving.

 

Agreed, every so often I'll find someone interesting to converse but they never really find me attractive in the relationship sense. So how exactly am I suppose to make them feel?

 

I agreed you need to read the person and put forward those parts you feel they will be most receptive to, which I did in this instance, she is into current affairs so I brought the part out. The truth of it is I don't know what they want or expect so I end up finding topics to talk about the date sorts revolves around those.

 

At least you have had the good grace to admit that most of dating is selective information sharing, embellishing some things to be more receptive. Frankly that's a lot of hard work for not a lot of gain in my case, in fact scrap that, no gain in my case.

 

Seemingly there is nothing I can offer up with piques any interest in people that interest me. I guess I need to decide what sort of compromise I think is acceptable.

 

At least I can now walk past the pretty blond drinking her coffee and immediately dismiss any chance I might have with her. That level of acceptance is preferable versus wishing I was the sort of guy would realistically have a chance.

[basil67]

ZA, you've spoken about how when dating, people are chameleons and how this is fake.

 

Truth is, what you're seeing is the ability to be able to fit one's audience. Being able to talk on different levels with different people is a high level social skill. My father in law is loved by so many. He has a gift of being able to talk to anyone on their level. He's a great listener. Perhaps he can't contribute on intellecual topics as he left school at age 14 and had to work to help support his family, but even that story is interesting.

 

One of my Aspie friends says that her spirit animal is the chameleon. Having those skills are what makes her able to work in academia, teach and socialise. It's one of the skills listed in the unwritten manual of which you speak.

[ZA Dater]

ZA, you've spoken about how when dating, people are chameleons and how this is fake.

 

Truth is, what you're seeing is the ability to be able to fit one's audience. Being able to talk on different levels with different people is a high level social skill. My father in law is loved by so many. He has a gift of being able to talk to anyone on their level. He's a great listener. Perhaps he can't contribute on intellecual topics as he left school at age 14 and had to work to help support his family, but even that story is interesting.

 

 

I don't have an issue talking to different sorts of people and tailoring my approach accordingly BUT the issue I do have is when people completely change their entire character in the hope of impressing someone, for me that's just misrepresentation.

 

While I can talk to all sorts of people, from the homeless guy I see each morning to the CEO of a multinational company there is a type of person I would prefer to date, its all very well saying ok tailor yourself but do you really want uninteresting conversation, sure most probably say that about me which is fine its their opinion but as I had on one date, spending two hours talking to an au pair who can only talk about dogs and children, that's not particularly what I want on a date, I look for the rounded sort of person but there are other factors which come into play too.

 

I do actually have an interesting story which nobody finds interesting because its not what everyone else did, people cant relate to me at all most of the time.