Some days are worse than others..........

[RecordProducer]

Don't feel alone Jonesgirly. We're all sisters in pain in one way or another. Perhaps not at the same time though. Life is like 4 seasons: sometimes it's rainy fall, sometimes cold winter, sometimes warm spring, sometimes hot summer. They change periodically. Often we have long, long winters, but spring always comes again. Don't despair. It's just life. You'll get over.

[sylviaguardian]

I remain in a kind of sad-funk. Its okay, I know, because there is a lot to be sad for. And thanks to you all, I feel that way. I'm not trying to push myself to feel happy, because there is a REASON I feel this way.

 

Right. Bad feelings happen for a reason. Although we want them to go away as quickly as possible, they have a purpose.

 

I realized this weekend why I had been feeling so upset for the last couple of weeks - basically since the most recent revelation that he had put his GF's name and number in his cellphone under a "guys" name. I guess the knowledge that he, at some point during the "relationship", chose to sit down and willfully cover up his betrayal. This left absolutely NO room for me to kid myself into thinking that "hey - maybe they were JUST friends". I guess I had been subconsciously hoping for a "better" explanation all along, and could no longer fool even myself.

 

Sounds wierd, but this is progress. It took me about 12 months to accept this and to stop thinking "I can't believe this has happened". It really really hurts but it is necesary. If you don't get in your head that this really happened, you will never be able to move on. Hang in there.

 

I wonder how long it will take to get out of this funk, to be able to somehow be able to move-on in whatever direction I should go, and just get "over it." Or not.

 

I don't know how long it will take you, but it's taken me 15 months to even get to the point where I THOUGHT I might want to start working on the relationship. Before that, it was all about survival for me. But you sound a bit less naive than I was Don't worry about this just now. Give yourself some breathing space.

 

By the way, I know what you mean about not telling anyone but I told a couple of close friends and they have been REALLY supportive. It helps to get things off your chest and sometimes it can help to see a different viewpoint.

 

Sylvia

[jonesgirly]

I'm tired of feeling like I'm living with my uncle (you know - the funny one that always made you uncomfortable?). I really can't even stand to look my husband in the eye - I would probably be sending "death rays".

 

He just HAD to say it again earlier this week - "WE WERE JUST FRIENDS!". I'm starting to think that he really doesn't get it. He'll admit that what he did was wrong, apologize a million times (in emails), but just doesn't seem real genuine about it, it you know what I mean.

 

And his new "opening line" for discussion is: "you seem angry" or "why are you angry?" Does he really wonder that? He admits that his behavior was a betrayal of trust in our marriage, but doesn't seem to understand that there is an earning process involved if he wants to stay in the marriage. He hasn't changed a bit. He tells me how upset he is (yeah, right), but still seems to function just fine - online all day at work, ordering stuff and having it sent to work, winning ebay auctions, checking all his email accounts at work instead of at home, etc.

 

I never had a reason to be suspicious of him, and in fact, I kind of liked that he was his own "seperate" person, with interests seperate from "us."

 

NOW I feel like this behavior has just allowed him to be a free bird, pursuing whatever and whenever he wanted to. Although he has always professed his love and devotion, I've learned that he can pretty much "say" whatever he thinks I want to hear.

 

I DON'T WANT THESE SPOILED GOODS - I WANT WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR!

 

My ex-husband (my daughters father) and I have always had a fairly friendly relationship. Now that my Husband has been "busted" about his own mis-deeds, he is extremely suspicious/jealous of any converstions I might have with my ex-h. Granted, my ex-h has always hoped that we would get back together, but its been 18 years and I have NEVER given him that impression. He's a whole 'nother case, not really interesting though. Now, when he calls our house (usually looking for the girl), husband wants to know what "we" talked about, EVEN THOUGH I SIT RIGHT NEXT TO HIM AND HAVE THE CONVERSATION!

 

This seriously feels like a diversion tactic or something. I was really pi$$ed off last night when he asked "what did he want?" I said that I spoke to him (briefly) about his match.com problems (I recently encouraged the guy to go online after his recent breakup with a long-time g/f), and I was sitting only TWO FEET AWAY FROM HIM!

 

And for some reason, his attitude just didn't sit right with me. I said to him that "I have always spoken to XXX right in front of you and have always answered your questions about what we talked about. YOU on the other hand, hid from me your relationship with your g/f, never ONCE talking to her in front of me even though you were 'JUST FRIENDS', and then somehow can't remember ONE SINGLE CONVERSATION!"

 

Its these types of things - HE JUST DOESN"T GET IT. He doesn't internalized what I said - He should've been forthcoming with their interactions, but of course, they didn't talk about anything!

 

And just the way he made himself out to be - some kind of person of high-integrity, strong morals, etc., who thought that guys who talked about women in a "sexual" way were all pigs. I've said to him that he isn't "any" of those things (a man of integrity) - and he says that he "wanted to be." I guess just not 'wanted to be' enough - that damn belt-buckle thinking always gets in the way!

 

Trust issues have got to be the biggest problem in this situation. I cannot imagine a day that I would believe a word he says. I question everything that he says now, because nothing "matches." I may not say it to him, but his words are meaningless, when his actions have shouted out his "true self." When he tells me that he loved me during his affair, I reply "not enough to not!". When he tells me that I was important too - I reply "not important enough."

 

I truely believe there was a physical aspect of this affair, although I'm sure that he would never confess it. Oh does he squirm when I ask him "what" he was pursuing if he wouldn't have had sex with her. He likes to wear the "BUT I DIDN'T HAVE SEX WITH HER" medal, as if no betrayal occurred. Oh, just nevermind that he was involved with this girl for 18 months out of our three year marriage, went to great lengths to hide it from me, pursued her sexually for "only two months out of that time", and lied his booty off when caught. Freakin purple heart material, dontcha think?

 

I think I'm just annoyed with the whole thing now - I'm starting to realize that rebuilding trust is just something he is incapable of - why should he? After all, HE didn't do anything wrong in his mind. Okay - thats what it is. My feeling is that he tries to say all the right things - sorry, I betrayed your trust, etc., but doesn't REALLY think it! And thats where we'll stay - him clearing his own conscience, and me just wishing it had never happened. If only he realized what he has actually done, and really wanted to rebuild my trust, maybe things would end up differently.

 

Did any of you ever feel like this? Like he's just offering lip-service, but really doesn't think he did anything wrong, and just wants to forget about it?

 

 

p.s. you all are cheaper than a counselor, and way more convenient

[Mz. Pixie]

Well, yeah, but not from my spouse. My mom used to do that to me all the time.

 

Just something that jumped out at me about your post.... usually if a man has to tell someone he has integrity, he's honest etc then he's just projecting what he really wants people to think he is. For instance,

my ex father in law is very well respected in the community, everyone thinks he's a doll. Anytime any kind of praise is heaped upon him, he turns it down or turns it around on someone else. He worked on a major project for the community here- think millions of dollars. He spearheaded the whole thing and devoted countless hours to this that he could have put on his business for 10 years until it became a reality. When they wanted to make him Man of the Year and such and such, he asked them not to, to consider someone else.

 

He doesn't have to run around telling people how honest and how much integrity he has. His reputation preceeds him.

 

I have to at someone who insists he's honest and has integrity.

[jonesgirly]

Yeah, well... I think this one is headed to the dumpster. We had yet another "conversation"/argument this evening. He really just does not get it.

 

I've examined my feelings over and over - am I being a martry? am I being overly sensitive? am I being evil/punishing/witchy with a B? I sincerely don't think so.

 

I've tried to express my hurt at his betrayal, and I mean HURT with a big old "H". I'm not looking for a "fix", I'm looking for sincerity and genuine remorse. Here's what I get "I'VE SAID I WAS SORRY A LOT!". My inner voice keeps telling me that he's only sorry for getting caught. He hasn't really seemed sorry, and has done NOTHING to even ATTEMPT to rebuild my trust. I don't even know what he needs to do, I just know that he shouldn't expect it at this point.

 

My thinking is that the one who betrayed the other should be at least "appearing" as though the relationship matters enough to them that they would do anything to fix it.

 

I've done my best at being honest, open and truthful. I've even actually cried in front of him. That is not something I've done very easily in the past, and only when I'm feeling deeply and personally wounded, by someone that matters.

 

He actually had the 'nads to bring up the fact that his cellphone doesn't work as well as mine. He's blaming me for throwing it when I discovered that he had called his g/f when he told me that he hadn't talked to her (when I looked at his cellphone, SHE was his last outgoing call!). Well, okay I did throw it (not at HIM like I should have), but I wasn't trying to break it - I was just angry (and shocked) at yet another of his lies. Its stuff like this that he just doesn't get - I AM angry when he lies, I AM upset that he betrayed my trust, etc.

 

I don't think he will ever get it.

 

I wish he knew what other wayward spouses knew. That you can't expect a person to believe what you say, just because you "say" it. You have to show them. You have to prove you love them and realize your mistake by listening to them even when they seem crazed with anger and confusion. You need to sincerely understand WHY they may feel that way. That you need to seriously rebuild the trust required to maintain a close relationship by not doing those "secretive" type things that create more suspicion.

 

Even by just appearing to put that person at the forefront of all other issues will do wonders for their broken "selves."

 

But, alas, I will receive none of the above. He gets angry at me because I do not believe what he "says", even though I explain to him that what he "says" and what he "does" are miles apart. Its almost as if he doesn't want to acknowledge the fact the he had the ability to hurt me so deeply, that his actions have caused his wife such pain.

 

At this point I believe the only option is to move on. I cannot expect to be happy in a relationship where I am the focus of his anger due to the fact that I do not "adore" his every move. I would rather live alone than in house that makes me feel less than cared for.

 

I've even told him that if we do indeed decide to split, that we should wait until after the holidays (for the kids' sake). Its only a couple of months, and it would take that long anyway. Of course, he stated that I was going to give him a "great birthday present" (saracastically) - his B/D is in January. That was NOT my intent, and I just don't understand why he sees everything I bring up as an attack on his person.

 

He acts almost as though he is guilty of something......something I am not yet aware of (oh there's those red flags and paranoia veronese!).

 

Of course he ended the conversation AGAIN by walking out of the room, insisting that this is what "I" want, that "I" will not get past this, etc. (and he wonders why I don't ever feel 'heard' by him).

 

I'm fairly certain that I will be unable to continue this relationship at this point. Being married to the person I love, care for, and cherish is way out of reach now.

 

And doesn't it seem kind of quick for him to insist on his "trustworthiness" considering that he's done NOTHING to rebuild it? I only wish that he had realized that HE needed to do some work, that HE is the one that damaged this marriage, that HE should've made me feel that I was worth doing "whatever" it took to fix it.

 

Oh well, time to move on I guess.

[Ladyjane14]

I read your post earlier today, and then spent awhile thinking about what it is that makes a WS willing to show their regret and remorse.

 

When a WS is not making any attempt at all in reconciliation, I don't think there can be more that one of two things at work......either they are not really finished with the affair, or they are still defensive and in a state of resentment against their spouse.

 

If the affair is still ongoing....then you're still dealing with a WH who is deep in the fog of his own defective mindset. You can't expect the truth or any real effort toward the relationship from him until he resolves his OW addiction. If he's still in affair mode....there are methods for dealing with that, but NOT what you're doing now.

 

Let's presume though, that the affair is indeed over. Then you have to ask yourself, 'why is he still defensive and secretive?'

 

I try to compare my situation to yours. My husband rolled right over. He became "an open book" for me almost immediately. Sure, there were times when he resented my intrusion, and he'd grumble a bit. But if I voiced even one iota of disconcertion over his grumbling, he was REALLY quick to welcome me back in.

 

Now, my husband is a pretty good guy. He's high-maintenance, true....but overall, his heart is in the right place.

 

So, either your guy is not a good enough guy, or there's something that I did which is different from what you are doing.

 

That brings us right back to Reactive Anger. My husband saw NONE of that. Not once, since this entire imbroglio began, has he seen me direct my anger at him. In fact, he's seen nothing of my temper, except for the normal day-to-day kind. You know, like when someone cuts you off in traffic, or the management on your job p*sses you off....stuff like that.

 

On D-Day, I really was done with the marriage and wanted a divorce. I didn't even feel angry about it. I was just so tired, and wanted it finished.

 

Later, when I did get mad, I absolutely REFUSED to allow my anger to dictate my actions. I journaled ALOT, almost daily. And I left my journal out for him to read. Knowing that he would be reading my words, helped me to measure them better....but still, I did get my feelings down onto the paper, I assure you. It must have been fairly uncomfortable for him to read all that, at times.

 

Anyway, by excersizing really strict self-control, I was able to make him feel safe. I had already given him my word that it would be so. To do otherwise would be to break that promise. I couldn't have put him through that. I had, by that time, realized that I still loved him, and it wouldn't be fair. Not only to him, but to me as well. I had given my word, and I had my own integrity to consider. Honesty is what I asked, and what I promised. It wouldn't be right to put him in a position in which his 'honesty' was used against him.

 

For so long, he had been in a place in which he could not feel my love. He felt he had only himself to rely on, an outsider looking into a family unit in which he no longer felt welcomed. I can't blame him. At the time, even I, myself, didn't realize that I still loved him the way I did. It was only in the certainty of imminent loss that I found my feelings for him again.

 

Of course, he had been acting like an ASS for YEARS! And I had been walking on eggshells and avoiding him whenever I could. All of which had further alienated him from his family. And he had his own guilt to deal with as well. It wasn't really any secret to him that he was acting like an ass, and he felt bad about it. But he was just so angry that he couldn't bring himself to do differently.

 

It's all very convoluted, I suppose. I had every right to be angry. I had every right to divorce him on the spot and never give it a second thought.

 

But I do love him. And I could sympathize with him, once I was able to let go of my own resentment and really FOCUS on what was happening to him.

 

We had been adversarial with one another for a decade by then, but in sympathy for him, and for what his life would eventually be without me in it....I joined his team. In doing so, I proved to him that he could trust me with his feelings.

 

At any rate, he did roll over and show me his belly, and he did it pretty quick too, all things considered....but it was only after I'd shown him mine.

 

If divorce is what you want....that's one thing, but if you're not sure....best to get inside his head and figure out what went wrong. You can only do that if he feels safe with you and is willing to drop his defenses.

[jonesgirly]

Ladyjane - I give you kudos for being strong enough to not have any anger towards your husband. How in the hockey sticks did you NOT do that? After the shock of it all settled in, and the sharp edge of the hurt wore off, the first thing I felt was anger. Anger towards him for so carelessly tossing aside "us" and in particular, ME! I never ever wanted to deal with this sort of thing, and he assured me that I never would.

 

We had become kid-free for the first time in years, and had planned to have quite a good time the second half of this year, only to have THAT idea squashed!

 

I am so angry for his lies, deception, and betrayal, its tough for me to imagine not expressing any of it sometimes. But alas, I shall do as you say, oh wiser than me one, and give it a shot. After all, what have I got to lose at this point?

 

I don't think that he is continuing the affair, but really, I cannot be sure at this point. He is, by nature, a very defensive and difficult man. He has been this way his entire life, resulting from an extremely abusive father. He also has a soft and fuzzy side which he displays from time to time, so its not ALL icky. Mine was the same as yours - he has acted like an ASS for years towards his kids and others, and I've run interference in order to save them!

 

I think when I get to the point where I've decided that there is no way out other than a split, I DO lose my anger. I get to where you went - just kind of tired of it all and resigned to failure. He does seem to respond better to that, but I think its because he realizes that I'm DONE. I've told him that I really don't want to beat each other up anymore - its senseless and only causes more hurt on both sides.

 

It was probably easier for you because on D-Day, you decided right then that you were done. I'm sure you were actually PAST anger, and into 'finished'. Had I known everything all at once instead of dragging it out over the next two months, I may have had that advantage too.

 

Nonetheless, I shall give it my best shot. I will lose my anger, although it is NOT what I show in EVERY conversation. Its mostly when I've heard the proverbial "get over it" again, that I lose it. I'm thinking that not only do I have hurt in there, but now I"m becoming resentful of his inability to show me ANY consideration. And I DO empathize with his position to a certain extent, IF it is true that he feels horrible for hurting me so badly. I have told him that I would NOT want to be him - it must be awful to realize what you've done, and see it on the other persons face. I've also lost 15lbs since this started, so my clothes are, of course, hanging off me. Nothing like being reminded every day of what you've done to your wife huh?

 

I'm feeling pretty good this evening and appreciate your suggestion/comment. I think now is a good time to put your ideas into play. I can only hope that he'll "show me his belly" soon. I shall keep you posted!

 

Thanks LJ.

[Ladyjane14]

Ladyjane - I give you kudos for being strong enough to not have any anger towards your husband.

 

Oh, I don't know about all that.... I was plenty mad alright. But weirdly, I usually had my most angry moments when he wasn't home. When he was with me, I felt better because I could see he was trying so hard.

 

But yeah, I'm not really well-known for my meek-as-milk temperament.

 

Maybe when you and your husband break through to a more emotionally trustful place, you'll find more comfort from having him in close proximity, like I did with mine.

 

Its mostly when I've heard the proverbial "get over it" again, that I lose it.

 

You'll "get over it" in your own good time....when you are ready, and NOT when people tell you to. But, you really do need to get past this at some point....one way or the other. It'll poison you with bitterness if you don't. And that bitterness will color every aspect of your life if you ever allow it to rule you.

 

Your posts show a quick wit, and a lively sense of humor. It'd be a shame to lose all that to despair.

[jonesgirly]

Its been a week since I've decided to get "past" my anger and not let "it" be the only emotion I'm able to display. I can honestly say that it has resulted in the sadness taking over. I'm pretty sure that most people cover up sad with anger anyway.

 

However, it appears as though I'm becoming more detached from my marriage. He cannot seem to understand anything I say. I've even resorted to asking him "what he understood" from what I may have said. Of course its never the point I was trying to make, but rather some random phrase he will pick out and hang on to. I will try to be honest and bare my soul (not easy for me) by saying something like: "when you yell at me, slam your chair under your desk and leave the room for the night, it seems that you're blaming me for all of this. It makes me feel like you don't care that I am upset. It makes it hard for me to care about us when this is the result of all of our conversations." And here is what HE hears me saying "I don't care about us."

 

I'm fairly certain that it is difficult for him to believe that he did what he actually did. Especially the part when I discovered his blatant deception a few weeks ago by discovering he had put her cellphone number under another GUYS name in order to hide it.

 

He says he doesn't want to get divorced. But really, I don't think he is able to do what it takes to rebuild trust with me. He doesn't understand the concept of "open book." He continues his secretiveness and won't even open his email at home, but rather gets it all day at work (you can access your home email account from the web anywhere). He has a thousand different email accounts, but really I couldn't care less. Again, if he's gonna do it, he's gonna do it! He even said to me that I could go all the way to his work and check his email there (that is where "they" email back and forth). I said that I knew he had already deleted all of them - and he started grinning that "oh you caught me!" grin. I knew it before, but that really confirmed my gut feeling that he has tried to cover ALL his tracks.

 

But the point is, HE hasn't tried to do ANYTHING differently. And lets not forget that he had to go out and buy a pocket PC (an HP IPAQ) just a few weeks after the initial discovery that "something was up." Of course, this was during the time when he was oh so devastated. Right. I lost 15lbs, and he continued on his merry way. Researching and purchasing a pricey little device that would allow wireless web access (i.e., emails, messages) in all kinds of places!

 

And that would've been fine if he had been a little more empathetic towards me. I'm not an attention whore, but geez.....I was spilling my guts out and feeling like my heart had been ripped in a million pieces. I guess maybe I overestimated the protective nature of a spouse. Oh thats obvious, I know.

 

And now when I look at him I see a person whom I can never really rely on to be on "my" side. I will never feel safe around him, mostly for the simple reason that when I'm obviously hurt, he choses to get angry at me. Maybe he's a bully.

 

He will insist that "this" is all he thinks about. But then he says that he has read some of my posts here, but didn't check since them for over a week. Now that shows real curiosity doesn't it? And I even told him I didn't care if he read them - there is nothing here that isn't the truth. It doesn't bother me NOW that he wasn't concerned enough to sit online and hit "refresh" every five minutes looking for info from me, but it bothered me when he first said it. I must've been in that place where I was LOOKING for a sign that he really was interested in this mess. I'm pretty sure I'll need to pick up the divorce papers and pack his bags in order to get his "true" attention. You know how you just know in your gut that they don't really care? Thats what I feel. It would take a miracle at this point for me to believe that he was going to put forth any effort. The only thing that makes me angry now is the fact that HE actually has the nads to get angry at ME! He will say he's angry because of the mess "we're in", but totally forgets that HE'S the one that made the choices. I feel upset because "I" didn't have a say in the matter.

 

Oh well, life goes on in this "static" of not-angry, but no real communication happening. I remember when it used to hurt my feelings sooo bad when he would just go to bed when I was all upset. And now I'm pretty much relieved because there will be no resolution to anything in our conversations anyway. It would be awesome to have a spouse that would put in a marathon session, just for the simple reason of trying to save the marriage. I've read on here that some of them do that and I would feel so much more acknowledged if that had happened. I'm fairly certain that this will end in a divorce, although its not really what I wanted. I really really wanted him to show his concern for the hurt he had caused, the damage inflicted on us, and the total lack of respect for me he had displayed. Oh no, I'll get none of that - he's just angry. Must be nice.

 

And you know what else - I don't give a crap about his anger. I'm pissed too, but I know it does NOTHING towards resolving any issues. In order for honesty to be allowed in, anger has to be scraped away. Its not about anger, but what lies behind it that matters. I'm really angry that he did this to us, but really, I'm hurt. I'm sad and I'm feeling wounded. His last contribution - he said "I said I was sorry." Yeah, me too. I just wish he had seemed sorry, and had worked to rebuild my trust. But apparently he just doesn't have it in him. It sucks majorly when he says something like "what do you want me to do?" Instead of telling him that I just want him to seem concerned (which is starting to feel like I'm beggin for it), I should tell him to start packing. Ahh....life goes on. Maybe there's a book I should get him?

[Ladyjane14]

If you want to divorce him....well, he's certainly given you cause. Emotional trust is not easy to rebuild. I'm not sure it EVER comes back, really. Not the way it was anyway.

 

It's been some time ago, but someone here posted that it was kind of like a broken china plate. You could glue it back together, and maybe not ever be able to tell it was broken, at least not visually. But it would never have the strength it once had. It would ALWAYS be a broken plate.

 

Some people would toss that broken plate into the garbage bin, and others would keep it. Who's to say which is right or wrong. I suppose time tells all tales on that. In the end, that is a personal decision for each BS to make.

 

Personally, I kept my broken plate. I protect it a little better, so it doesn't get broken again. But I don't put in in the dishwasher. It wouldn't survive.

 

I think I trusted him TOO MUCH, back then. I was wrong. He's not any less human than the next guy....just as fallable and prone to mistakes as any.

 

I can live with that. Because I've become ALOT more self-reliant. He busts my plate again.....and that will be that. I know it, and he knows it too. My boundary here is firm. "Do whatever you want, but know this....if you cheat, the marriage ends." I can give another chance, but not more than just this one.

 

That's me. It's for you to decide what works for you.

 

 

He cannot seem to understand anything I say. I've even resorted to asking him "what he understood" from what I may have said. Of course its never the point I was trying to make, but rather some random phrase he will pick out and hang on to. I will try to be honest and bare my soul (not easy for me) by saying something like: "when you yell at me, slam your chair under your desk and leave the room for the night, it seems that you're blaming me for all of this. It makes me feel like you don't care that I am upset. It makes it hard for me to care about us when this is the result of all of our conversations." And here is what HE hears me saying "I don't care about us."

 

Men and women don't speak the same language. It's bizarre really....like dealing with a space alien. But when you " resorted to asking him what he understood", you did the perfect thing. Listen, Repeat, Rephrase.

 

In conversation right after D-Day, my husband said to me, "I feel vulnerable". In the context of the conversation, I took that to mean that he wasn't sure that he could trust the very fragile condition of our relationship, the somewhat shaky beginnings of recovery.

 

Nope. After Listen, Repeat, and Rephrase....he was trying to tell me that he didn't feel like he could trust himself enough to NOT pick up the phone and call the skanky cam-ho he'd been talking to everyday!

 

People talk about problems in Communication. Well, THAT's what they're talking about. He says one thing; you hear something else. You say you need his reassurance; he hears he'll NEVER be able to make you happy anyway.

 

I've learned this much though. Men do NOT have the ability to read our minds. He'll never be able to think of a way all on his own to make his regret, if it exists, palpable for you.

 

Tell him what you need. Make it clear what you want. It's NOT a game of Blind Man's Bluff where he has to find it all on his own in order to win. He's already clearly handicapped by emotional STUPIDIY, as all cheater's are.

 

This isn't rocket science for pete's sake. A man should know that if he cheats on his wife....there are consequences for that. But alas, if he was savvy enough to understand that, he wouldn't have gone there to begin with.

[veronese]

Honey, I can't tell you how much your threads touch my heart. You're going through the mill right now and I wish I could tell you it would end some time soon, but the truth all the emotions bombarding you these last two months are all perfectly natural feelings to experience in your situation.,

 

Doesn't make them any easier to get through though does it Jonesgirly? But I'm convinced it's better to go through them all during the recovery process rather than burying your head in the sand or brushing them all under the carpet.

 

My parents, married for 51 years, disguised, concealed, and ignored each and every one of the problems that naturally occurred throughout their marriage.

 

How did they appear to the world and his wife? Like the epitomy of marital bliss. A perfect couple with perfect children (except for me of course!, but they had six so it didn't matter too much if the last one had a few defects!), and an idyllic lifestyle and home to boot.

 

 

BUT..........BUT, it was all a crock of ****! 51 years on and they still live in their beautiful castle amidst their beautiful possessions and have maintained their saintly reputations to all and sundry, while all along enduring a living hell on earth, in isolation, lonliness, desperation and pain.

 

They had me fooled JG, right up until fairly recently actia;;u. But I've seen exactly what denial, pretence and complacency can do to relationships and it aint pretty!

 

Better to thrash it now, confront your pain and heartache. work through your confusion and bemusement, then one day you may well emerge intact, at peace and sane!

 

It'll be a while darling but everything you are going through replicates my life a year ago. You WILL get through this my love and you ARE someone very very special.

 

Hugs

 

Veron xxxxx

[veronese]

tempting though it is, try not to spend too much time here on LS.

 

It's a wonderful place to visit during especially challenging times, but JG, your marriage is what matters most.I've spent an obscene amount of time here at times which has detracted from time with my H, but equally, I have read things that have helped me enormously.

 

can be distracting at times too, a convenient diversion.

 

Hope you don't mind me saying that (and Midori and the other LS directors)

 

V x

[jonesgirly]

Okay........I'm spending less time here than in the past, but I still visit regularly for posts from people like Veronese.

 

If only everyone could be prepared ahead of time for the emotional massacre one faces when they realize the one with whom they've pledged their loyalty to was less than deserving!

 

Sunday evenings are usually the most difficult for me. We've spent the weekened together with a "temporary empty-nest" with no REAL intimate discussion. I've developed a thicker emotional skin and look forward to Monday morning, and the hectic workweek (with all its distractions) ahead.

 

I think I go to that place where you just can't continue being a wreck. I've totally "faked" my way into a no-anger zone, and I think it has given him a false sense of repair. Its almost funny the way he thinks that we're "just fine" because I'm not shooting death rays at him.

 

Its true that I'm not still in the "fresh" discovery shock, but its also true that absolutely nothing has been resolved. I think he's trying to be less secretive, but doesn't really "know" what to do or say. He does not initiate any real conversations (who can blame him for not being self-abusive?), and continues to state that he "doesn't know what to do or say". I ALWAYS tell him that he should say whatever he feels, as long as its the truth. I emphasize that he may get pummelled for it, but it also may be DESERVED. He really doesn't want to talk about any of this mess at all. I've told him that I've become kind of "desensitized" to things over the last couple of months. I've realized that he would never ever "be there" for me, nor does he possess any empathy for the person who suffered the most for his selfish and inconsiderate behavior.

 

What really happens for me is that I become more detached from the relationship. And thats okay for me, I've done it before. Its a self-protection thing, I know, but in this case it is necessary. Normally, I would not continue to be honest about how I've felt or even to state that I have become this way. But I have with my husband, and don't really think that it matters to him. As long as I'm not "looking" like a hurt person, well then, golly gee willickers, things are fine at home!

 

 

You're right veronese about our parents' generation. They really did marry for "better or worse." It never ceases to amaze me that people would actually choose to stay in a miserable relationship, rather break their "vows" or disrupt their childrens' lives, even when they're gone! I've always thought that kids are better off without parents who set them up for a dysfunctional marriage of their own. And now with this (our) generation, there is so much more information (www) and communication (Dr.Phil, www), that people can actually think about seeking personal satisfaction instead of suffering endlessely.

 

I wish I could forsee when this was a year behind me. I am grateful for all the support I've been given, especially Veronese, who's situation seems to mirror mine the most. Because I haven't told anyone on the planet all of this, my time spent here reading and replying has been a literal sanity-saver.

 

I'm not sure where we'll be in a year. I've tried to imagine me wanting to remain married, and I've also imagined that we've split up. I really don't have a prediction, because my husband is very unpredictable. I still feel that he thinks he's done nothing "wrong" because he continues to get angy whenever I initiate conversation even REMOTELY related to the "mess". I even asked him this evening if he had anything he wanted to ask me or talk about because tomorrow is Monday, and I may be hit by a train. Of course, he had nothing. Whats troubling to me is that he never takes the opportunity to ask me if "I" have anything I wanted to talk about. On his behalf, he did ask me if anything was going on with my daughter (I had talked to her on the phone earlier) or my mom (phone again). Because there isn't anything going on with either of them, I said 'nothing.' Later on, he told me that he felt I didn't want to talk to him because he had asked those questions and I didn't have anything to say. He easily forgets that "elephant in the living room" doesn't he?

 

Thanks to all of you here, I've realized that my feelings are "normal" and that I'm not being unreasonable when I want to know what ta hell happened. And when he insists that he's being honest with me, its great to remember things like the posting that said something like 'what makes him so trustworthy now - just that he got caught?...............

 

So I guess if anyone has a list of things that spouses should do in this situation, it would be helpful for him. I've even told him what "I" would've done had the situation been reversed (cooked fabulous dinners, gone out of my way to be nice and understanding, x-rated stuff, and in general, expressed true remorse and genuine 'sorry-ness'). I was hoping that the part about being understanding would sink in, but I don't think so. So anyone with a list of their "favorite things" their BS did to help the situation after the initial discovery would be helpful (maybe) in my situation.

[sylviaguardian]

JG,

 

I used to think that it would have been nice if my h had done a few things to show me how sorry he was after I found out, like take me on vacation, buy me a new ring to replace the one that got thrown down a drain, buy me flowers, gifts, take me out etc etc

 

I am sitting here 15 months down the line (7 since D-day 2) and I realise now that none of that would have made the slightest bit of difference. There was NOTHING that he could have done to make it up to me because there is nothing that makes up for throwing someone's trust in you away.

 

The point is that he can't do anything to make you feel better. Feeling better will come from you. Either you will find a will to work on the marriage ( and it has started recently with me) or you will walk away from it. These are the only things that might make you feel better. It has to come from you.

 

I guess at the moment, all he do is:

- be accountable

- be open

- try to show you that he is serious about changing his views on infidelity

 

That's really all he can do. You need to make up your own mind. I guess it is normal for the WS to act like that too. As long as you are not throwing things and screaming they think things are OK. It's because, for them the marriage hasn't really changed from how it was before, whereas for you it has changed out of sight and you are re-evaluating everything. And maybe they don't look too much different because you weren't really close before it all happened (certainly the case for me, although I didn't see it).

 

Hang in there JG. The answer is in you. It will just need some time for it to work through. If you have questions why don't you try writing them down for him to answer?

 

Sylvia

[Ladyjane14]

Again..... Ditto everything that Sylvia said.

 

But the big question here is, 'Do you want to continue the marriage?'

 

While I can appreciate a good vent, there's something to be said for a solid decision. The choice is yours. You can continue on in the marriage.....or, you can end it.

 

It's a great thing that you're no longer showing your anger, but it's not the same thing as NOT feeling it. You're still angry, and even though you have sufficient cause, your anger is hurting you AND your marriage.

 

If you're venting, that's fine. It's a good thing even. If you're stuffing your anger....it's not so good.

 

But there is a way that you can let go of your anger altogether. However, it requires that you put yourself 'out there'. It requires that you take emotional risks. Not everybody is up for that. Because in doing so, you have to take divorce off the table. You have to put it all on the line, and put your ENTIRE effort into the relationship, no holds barred.

 

If you're up for that, then my question for you is this.... 'What did YOU do, to make your husband turn away? What were the deficits that YOU brought to the relationship that made him seek elsewhere for support?'

 

If he's an emotionally defective person......an unrepentant alchololic, a narcissitic serial cheater, an untreated bipolar personality, a toxic person....then, that's something else. But if he's not any of those things, then what part did YOU play in this scenario?

 

I know those questions sound harsh. I know that it sounds like blaming the BS for the choices of the cheater. Your husband could most certainly have made better decisions. Mine could have made better decisions too.

 

But the key here is that anger dissipates with the utilization of Sympathy. It must give way.

 

When you can 'walk a mile' in your husband's shoes, you WILL find the ability to sympathize with him. When you can feel his loss, the loss he felt when he couldn't turn to you; when you can feel the hole that was left in his spirit from the loss of YOU.....then you'll know your own value to him.

 

If he's a GOOD man....what kind of emotional void would it have taken in order for him to stray? If he's a good man, what must that decision have cost him in terms of self-respect?

 

These are hard questions. And, I admit....they are presumptive. I have only my own experience in which to work. And my man....for all his quirks....is a GOOD man. I had left one helluva hole in him, and it hurt me to know it.

 

But the good news is that when you take corrective measures to insure that YOU aren't making mistakes anymore, that you are loving your mate to the BEST of your ability....you gain all kinds of confidence for the future.

 

It's NOT trust in him that should necessarily be sought. That's gone. It's trust in YOU. It's the faith that you have in YOURSELF, as an irreplacably loving partner, that will see you through. When you feel like you're the BEST person you can be; when you know that you're the BEST partner he could ever possibly DREAM of....the insecurities WILL fade.

 

I know it.....because I'm living it. It wasn't until I took complete and utter ownership of my own deficits, that I could sympathize with how bereft my husband was without me. In many ways, I had emotionally abandoned him waaaayyy before he abandoned me.

 

And it doesn't matter if I agree with his perception of that. His perception is the only truth that he knows.

 

It became a matter of accepting his feelings. I can't dictate the truth of ANYONE else's emotions. People feel what they feel. I can't control that with MY perception of the truth. All I can do is to deal with what's left, and what's in front of me.

 

In any event, my own anger was short-lived. I'm not saying that I never felt it....because that would be a bold-faced LIE. But it was easily surmountable for all that. I couldn't hold onto it and still pull my man back from the abyss.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm tired.....so I hope at least some of that ramble made sense.

[sylviaguardian]

As usual, Lady Jane makes so much sense. I have to say that if someone asked me whether I had any sympathy for my h when his affair came out, I would have been hard-pressed to find any.

 

However, as time as gone on and I've stuck with it, I am starting to see a different side to him. I realise that he is not as 'sorted' as me. Ironic as it always seemed the other way around. I appeared weaker because I went to him for help and he never seemed to need any. In fact, I see now that not being able to ask for help is a HUGE weakness. I see now that he is not as strong as even he thought.

 

I suppose my sympathy came when I saw how sorry he was that he had stuffed up his life (and mine) through weakness. I can see now what LJ is saying in that I didn't pick up on his unhappiness because everything was OK with my life. Now I am more careful to ask how he is etc and find out ways that he can be happier.

 

Ironically, one thing that made him unhappy was his lack of friends and I encouraged him to go out with a male friend. That was something he hadn't done for years and when I saw how pleased he was with it, I saw a change in him and realised that if he had been doing this all along, there would have been no need for the OW.

 

I think though that you JG, are not quite at this stage yet. It has taken me over a year to get to this stage. I guess other people will ge there faster but I had to sort through my own hurt and anger first. Anger is useful but if it goes on too long it can destroy you. At some point you have to make a conscious decision to leave the past where it is and look at the present only.

 

You will get through this girl!

 

Sylvia

[jonesgirly]

I'm bored now with being angry or upset full-time, so I've decided that its now a part-time habit. I've made the decision that I do indeed want our relationship to work. Okay, thats done.

 

Now here's an interesting event. I've read all your posts about not being angry (self-destructive) and exploring the "emotional needs" of each other. Although I find it hard to believe that my husband was seriously neglected just a year and a half after we were married (and consequently felt the need to obtain a GF), I thought I would begin to explore this area with him. I was/am curious as to what "we" were lacking that would require the assistance of an adoring, 24-year-old GF. We were sitting in our den/office last Tuesday evening, and I (very nicely) began talking about whatever (doesn't really matter). So he gets up and starts rearranging the CD's scattered all over the room and putting them away! Okay, so maybe I AM a little sensitive at this point in my life, but geez.......we were just sitting there face to face conversing a few minutes ago, and as soon as I seem to be talking, its "I guess I've got better things to do!". But because I feel like I'm becoming one of those wimpy little beaten-down spouses, I just feel sad inside, but don't get mad. I'm done with that getting pi$$ed off every five seconds - VERY non-productive. I told him that I felt very "ignored" at that point, and didn't really wish to start an argument or even continue the conversation. Well, of course this is fine with HIM, and he just leaves.

 

So, I go down the hallway into the guest bathroom and see that he's laying across the bed (napping?). It just hit me the wrong way, and of course I couldn't keep my mouth shut. I said "I guess you've decided to go to bed without saying goodnight again!" (I really wanted to take an ax and start chopping). I have told him many times that he makes me feel very unimportant when he just leaves in the middle of a dicussion/argument or whatever and goes to bed without even saying "I'm going to bed" (and he SHOULD add "because I'm an idiot and not going to listen to anything you have to say").

 

Well........apparently the wine-drinking this particular evening was particularly heavy on his part, because he lept out of bed and began following me back to the den/office in some sort of caveman-type rage. He was yelling at me about being angry, and when I told him that his email THAT VERY DAY said that he understood that I was angry and that I had every right to be, he just got more angry.

 

He then began yelling at me (I still don't know what he was saying) - IN MY FACE TYPE YELLING, pushed me down into my chair so that I couldn't leave, and started throwing everything in sight all over the place. I wasn't scared at this point, because I figured, heck he's going to do what he wants anyway, so I just looked at him. The only thing I said to him during his tirade was "why are YOU so angry?". Never did get an answer. So, I had to sit there while he threw everything in sight at the wall next to my head - lamps, pictures, CD's , pens, telephones, books, EVERYTHING! He had that "wildman" look in his eyes too. I told him he had five seconds to get away from me, and he continued to push me backwards towards the wall and into my chair. I was a little nervous at this point, but I'd been there before (see my previous posts about the luau).

 

After about twenty minutes of this he went into the kitchen, grabbing the flowers (he bought me) out of the vase on the dining table, and slammed them all over the place. It was pretty ugly. Then he went towards the bedroom.

 

At this point I called 911. Not so much for fear of my own safety, but maybe for his too. I could hear drawers slamming in the bedroom, so I knew he was packing and thats when I slipped outside. I was met by an officer sneaking up on the house (they knew that he was still in the house and what was going on from my call - no sirens or lights). I was whisked into the back of a squad car and briefly told the story.

 

So, four more cop cars show up and park on each side of the street. They ask me if he has firearms in the house, and I lied and said "no". I was seriously afraid he'd be an idiot and either get shot, or at a minimum get busted for having firearms (a 357, 9mm, and a 45). I watch as he comes walking about of the house with his usual packed bag, and then the officers approached him - he hadn't seen them, because they were keeping a low-profile on purpose. I could tell he was being a dick with them too, and then watched as they handcuffed him. They were not too happy with the way he was acting and told me they would've arrested him anyway because of his behavior.

 

Then they come inside and take pictures, and tell me that he's "one angry man." I had to give them his name because he wouldn't! I quickly wrote out a statement (plus got my picture taken doing it for evidence, I guess) and then they were gone. I got his bag that he had packed off the front lawn, and here's what he packed - his mothers' ashes, three pair of underwear, a pair of socks, and a gun (with a clip in his other bag). The usual.

 

I ended up dropping the charges, because I couldn't live with myself if I had pursued it. He would've had a no-contact order with me, and I didn't want that I guess. No, I'm not a puss, and I can definitely take care of myself. He had already been arrested at that point, and I didn't think pressing charges would do any good, and would probably end up damaging things beyond repair. I ended up picking him up at the police station the next afternoon.

 

He felt bad, really really bad. But okay, lets get real. Somebody needs to fix him, and it ain't me. I told him that too, along with the fact that I do love him, will always love him, and want to work on our marriage. He was seriously upset (good - he should've been).

 

At the same time, I've also come to realize that he would've NEVER done the same thing for me if the roles were reversed. I know that he would NEVER had even TRIED to contact me if I'd just let them go on with the charges, court appearance, etc. He gets into this helpless frame of mind where "he" can't do ANYTHING to fix things. I'm starting to think that it is maybe an EXCUSE to not do anything. I think he's having a difficult time accepting responsibility for his actions, and in fact, thinks he didn't really do anything wrong, so why are things messed up?

 

Things like this really take the 'fun' out of dysfunctional.

 

Last night (Saturday), I printed out the Emotional Needs questionaire off the marriage builders website. I put it on his desk and he filled it out. We talked about a few points, mainly my surprise that 'conversation' wasn't higher on his list (that's what he claimed he needed GF for). We talked about specifics on his list, and how we might improve my "meeting" of these needs. Not in a gimme gimme sort of way, but in an informational type way. So all is good right? Well, after about an hour I pointed out that he didn't seem too interested in MY emotional needs questionaire.

 

These are the things that stick out to me. He seems so self-centered and insensitive. Maybe I'm beating my head against a brick wall?

[Mz. Pixie]

JG-

 

Your husband is exhibiting alot of the signs of someone who could become a major physical abuser. That to me is more telling than all of this other affair stuff. He wants to control you with his anger.

 

I'm concerned for your safety should these situations escalate. Please consider leaving asap.

[veronese]

Honey, this aint good.

 

His behaviour really gives cause for concern.

 

I'm pushed for time now but wanted to tell you to be careful. The fact that he has guns too is really worrying.

 

Honestly JG, think about it real hard.

 

Do you really want to be with this man?

 

I'll post again as soon as I can.

 

Big hugs darling

 

veronese xxx

[jonesgirly]

We spoke last night of his "anger/rage." He says that he thinks it comes from his feelings of hopelessness or helplessness in our situation. I indicated to him that his quick retreat to "this is hopeless, I can't do anything to fix it" seems like an excuse or an "easy way out." Although he adamently denies this, I'm still not certain I believe that.

 

I pointed out the fact that "I" am still here, still working on things, still trying, etc. I also said (as I've said BEFORE), that it seems as though "I" am the ONLY one doing anything, and he must remember that "I" am the one who was stepped on! I find it hard not to resent this fact at times, but do remember that men and women are from different planets. He later asked me if "anything" he says or does is the "right thing." I said that yes, sometimes it is. He didn't ask "what", so I guess he wasn't that curious.

 

Oh, before I forget......all guns are in MY possession, NOT accessible by him at all.

 

I am being careful, and I'm carefully watching how or if the "incidents" escalate into something so obviously abusive I'd have no choice but to run.

 

I don't want that to happen. I want him to stop being so helpless, or at least stop using it as an escape. Maybe I'm still thinking there is a "knight in shining armor" underneath it all. Someone who will really try to understand whats going on. Someone who won't email me an apology and express remorsefulness, then turn around and go crazy when we're together.

 

I'm starting to believe that if anyone else were to tell this story to ME, I would think they were crazy for staying. I guess I'm waiting for the moment of realization when I KNOW I'm better off alone, than with HIM.

 

Its such a sad situation, much of which stems from his extreme sexual/emotional/physical abuse as a boy (by his father). He is a very intelligent man though, and seems to have worked through most of those issues. I realize that there is a wounded child inside of him, and I think thats the part that I feel empathy for. BUT.....I'm starting to believe that he has NO ability to empathize with others, even loved ones, as a result of his childhood. I wonder if anyone here knows a bit about that?

 

I just keep taking things day by day, with each new "drama" taking center-stage over the real issue that has broken my heart. I know he feels bad about the girl thing, well, at least he SEEMS like he feels bad (sometimes). Other times, I can tell he's just so tired of things not being "right back to normal" that he could burst. I feel like I'm really stifling my emotions now, just to NOT have to deal with his hurtful reactions to them. That kind of sucks, in a big time way. I don't sound very hopeful when I read my posts, but inside I keep thinking that he will eventually "get it". Or not, I guess.

[sylviaguardian]

JG,

 

I can only respond quickly. At the moment you are dealing with your own hurt and that is understandable. Have you thought about individual counselling? It's a good way to get things straight in your head.

 

Now this is the bit that's hard to take: everyone will tell you that to understand an affair you have to look to what CAUSED it. I know that this is the last thing that the BS wants to hear when they are dealing with their own pain.

 

But in terms of what has happened to your husband in the past, yes this will have a huge bearing on what happens in his relationships. He may well be an intelligent person, but the likelihood of 'working through' his problems himself is unlikely. This is because the relationships we form with our parents become the model for future relationships and the way we interact are 'unconscious', that is we are not usually aware of WHY we feel a certain way. It is very likely that the experiences that your h had as a child have contribute to two things: a lessened empathy for the feelings of others and an inability to recognise his own feelings. If you are interested in learning more type any of these into google: attachment and childhood abuse, adult attachment.

 

Good luck and well done for hanging in there.

 

Sylvia

[sylviaguardian]

Try this for a kick-off.

 

http://attachment.adoption.com/bonding/attachment-continuum.html

[Ladyjane14]

Let me preface anything else that I post with this:

 

If a man scared me, to the point where I picked up the phone and dialed 911....I would probably leave him. I can't say that definatively, because it's never happened to me. But I can't imagine living in a home with someone who I couldn't trust to keep himself under physical control.

 

I leave that to your judgement, and won't comment further on it. You're smart, and you seem to have a pretty good command of your situation afterall.

 

So, setting that aside..... He's REALLY frustrated!

 

And I'm wondering if he EVER wins an arguement with you. (????)

 

I can identify with that, because my man can't win an arguement with me either. I'm ALWAYS going to out-maneuver him verbally. My arguements are rational, and I'm not above going out of my way to get supporting FACTS in an effort to 'win my case'.

 

Unfortunately, that leaves him feeling very inept, and truly frustrated. He can't make his point. So, he resorts to negative comment, and OFTEN says things he doesn't mean....usually at an EAR-SPLITTING volume too.

 

He can't beat me with reason....so he goes directly to irrational nit-picking. He does NOT pass GO, and he does NOT collect 200 dollars either!

 

Anyway, I think it was in Dr. Phil's Relationship Rescue that I read something to the effect of.....Allow your partner to disengage gracefully from an arguement.

 

That fully resonated with me. I wasn't allowing him to extricate himself from sticky confrontations. And while I understand that it's important not to avoid conflict....it IS possible to delay it temporarily. Even desirable to do so, when it is clear that one partner is not capable of bringing their A-game to the table.

 

Don't get me wrong..... You should NEVER be walking around on egg-shells afraid to speak your mind. I want to be VERY clear about that.

 

But, when your communications are in serious jeopardy, you've got to use EVERY tool at your disposal. When your husband started fidgeting with his CDs, he was giving you 'body language' that you could have used to your benefit. Clearly, he had become disengaged in the conversation. He had shut down, and you weren't going to get anything constructive out of him after that.

 

You can USE those kind of signals to your advantage. Communications is more than verbal skill. It's more than getting your partner to see your point. It's also drawing his thoughts out, so that you can gain an understanding of where he's coming from.

 

This guy has painted himself into a corner with you. There's nothing he can do to extricate himself. He doesn't have the verbal skills that you have. And he's CLEARLY in the wrong....an indefensible position. It'd be pitiful....IF he wasn't busting up your house.

 

(Sorry, I said I wouldn't go there. )

 

Anyway, all I'm saying is that you can bring your FULL potential to your game plan. I can't imagine that you're not a better communicator than he is. So, my suggestion to you is that you use your skills in an effort to draw his feelings and thoughts from him. Not just your verbal skills. You have more at your disposal than just your words. Use your eyes. Use your intuition. Be dispassionate in accomplishing your goals.

 

Don't push unless you need to. Learn when to back off and allow him some breathing room. Allow whatever he gives you to rest safely in your keeping.

 

He's got a poison in him. It's got to be drawn out, or you'll never have your man back.

[Mz. Pixie]

Are you guys going to counseling????

 

If he wouldn't attend that would be a deal breaker with me. You both have alot to work on.

 

LadyJ- your post was right on the money with this one. I know I have a tendency to be like what you were describing as well. Thanks for bringing up a point I hadn't thought of.

[jonesgirly]

As much as I'd like to believe that I am intellectually "smarter" than he is, the truth is I'm not. However, I do believe that I am more skilled "emotionally" than he is. He has even said in the past that he could "turn things around" and make his ex-wife believe that it was "her fault" in any argument. Don't get me wrong - I'm no slouch, but we're fairly evenly-matched when it comes to an argument. Actually, we haven't really had many arguments anyway. Anytime something has bothered me, his lack of empathy has really not been worth my bringing up the subject. His lack of compassion and hurtful (actually defensive) remarks only made me feel worse.

 

And now, his behavior during the past year and a half (i.e, GF), has only magnified his hurtful nature. I don't think he does these things on purpose, but he just doesn't have the ability to see how his actions and behavior DO affect others.

 

I know that I have seriously curtailed my ability to verbally beat him senseless. Sometimes, that's when I realize how much I really do love and genuinely care for him. I know he feels badly for what he's done, can't understand it, wish it never had happened, etc., so why kick him when he's down? I think he also knows that if "I" had done the same things to him, he would be GONE. We both know this.

 

What I don't understand is his "hopeless" attitude. I'M still here! Even after his betrayal, lies, deception, multiple suicide threats, multiple run-aways, verbal bashings, physical shoving, trashing the house, and even being arrested for domestic violence!

 

I tried real hard not to read that last paragraph....I sound self-abusive

 

I've tried talking to him (delicately of course) about how his anger has affected us. How his inability to form attachments, even to me, has resulted in his lack of security. He does think he has (or thought he had) an attachment to me that was stronger than any other he's had in his life, and I do know this to probably be true. But he still thinks that the situation is "hopeless" and that he feels "helpless" to fix anything.

 

He continues to NOT demonstrate ANY real empathy or compassion towards me. And I'm NOT being a baby either! Its always the blatantly obvious things that bring it out too - like the hour we spent discussing the EN questionaire HE filled out (and what I could do to better meet them) without even a peep of curiosity out of him about MY EN questionaire! He's also just walked out of the room sooo many times, leaving me a tearful emotional wreck, and simply went to bed. Thats probably why I monitor my conversations with him very very carefully now. To be honest and open with him about my feelings would be setting myself up for further heartbreak. I cannot take much more of that - what he DID was bad enough, but what was WORSE is the way he's trampled all over me since then.

 

When I spoke to him last evening, I reiterated my hope that he can get some help from someone (a counselor, not a girlfriend). I told him that no matter how much I love him, I cannot "fix" him and I do not know the "right" things to say. I stated several times that I care enough about him to want him to be at peace inside, or at least to understand the inner turmoil that results in his angry-man behavior. I also told him that I knew there was a possibility that he would discover that maybe he wasn't truly happy with OUR relationship, but that HIS well-being was more of a concern to ME than that. And I meant it. I would rather he come to terms with some of his childhood abuse issues, anger/rage, and lack of empathy for others, and possibly decide to move on than to stay here and have BOTH of us torture ourselves into believing we're "soulmates" for years.

 

I should say that he readily admits all of the issues that I've been speaking of here, and that I'm not trying to diagnose him into dysfunction

 

And I'm not trying to be Florence Nightingale and "save" him. It really is about me too. I am still a mess inside, but have kinda put it away. I was never really "allowed" to express myself to him due to his creepy way of handling it. He'll admit he was wrong, but geez, don't be mad at me forever! He seemed (and still seems) unwilling to fully accept or take responsibility for anything. He goes STRAIGHT to the "its hopeless" and "I can't do or say anything to fix it" mode. That attitude taints EVERY conversation and results in a very non-productive world. So I have gradually just stopped talking freely with him about my own feelings. Its like he cannot handle the hurt in my heart that he caused. And "I" can?

 

All of you have made very valid points. I appreciate the link sylviaguardian - I've already checked it out and some of that sites links too.

 

I hope you see Ladyjane, that I know that I could run circles around him in an argument, but DON'T do that now. When something makes you feel so brokenhearted inside, it just isn't worth it. Besides, for the first few weeks after the initial discovery, I couldn't even THINK straight enough to pull together a prize-winning debate. The only thing it would result in is him feeling like the lowest form of life on the planet. That wouldn't be good for either of us.

 

HEY - maybe he's using this "hopeless/helpless" thing to make a point? Maybe that's his angle on it. He'll use that in order for me to say things like "yes, we can work it out dear - I just think you're fabulous!".

 

Yep - just a hint of resentment, I know. Its just been soo long. I've been made to feel that I've over-reacted, made a mountain out of a molehill, have been "f**cking with" him (by not getting over it, I guess), and have no real reason to feel the way I do.

 

You think HE'S frustrated? Geez, I'm beyond that. Not only do I have to contain my "sad" feelings about the situation, I've got to tip-toe around things with the crazy-man issues.

 

On the good side, Ms. Pixie, he HAS contacted a counselor that he went to in the past (during his divorce - a court-ordered parenting thing). Apparently, she had talked to him about his apparent anger issues during that brief time, and he seemed to like her (as a counselor). I'm not sure if he'll follow through with it, because he only went to counseling THREE times after the Luau.

 

I do intend to find an IC for myself too. I'm thinking that it would probably be a better idea for us to both see the same person though. I think it would cost too much money for me to have to constantly brief an outsider on the inner workings of "him".

 

So I shall continue this way...........I don't really bring up anything anymore, but he DOES try to initiate conversations sometimes. He will say something like "how are you feeling" or "you seem angry", which is a LONG way from where he was. Any progress, at this point, is hopeful for me.

 

P.S. The guns are still in my possession, although he has indicated that he wants them back (over my dead - nevermind). He says they're worth a lot of money (so am I - on Ebay).

 

I have 911 on speed dial. I also told him that if he ever does ANYTHING like that again, he would be PROSECUTED. The police told me this - that the next time there would be NO CHOICE for me - it would be automatic prosecution.