Next Chapter - MM & Me

[mark clemson]

... he was in a very bad place... wishing he could be on the flight home with them but also wanting to spend time with me. We went out and danced until 3:00am. We talked a little bit that evening and he basically told me what a conflicted place he was in - loves me and loves his family; such mixed feelings.

 

... He told me he was not ready to leave his wife and explained a lot about why he had changed his mind.... he feels guilty about leaving his son and like he needs to support her because he perceives she has always been there for him.

 

He loves me in mind, heart, and guts but continues to have strong feelings for his wife as well. I asked him why he enjoyed being with me and he said he can be completely himself with me, I challenge his intellect, I take care of him, we are the same amount of “good crazy”, and I am an insanely good f***. He also says that I give him something indescribable that no one else can and that we have something really special. However, he feels right now he needs to sacrifice those things for the obligation to his wife.

 

 

This is why the call it "cake-eating". And yes, affairs are addictive for both involved.

 

I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that in a number of years you will be regretting all the time you spent on this guy with nothing to show for it in the end but some good times had.

[preraph]

He'll find someone younger one day and just dump you like an old shoe.

[BaileyB]

OP - the only way to “help” him to not feel conflicted is to remove yourself from the picture.

 

She is not willing to do that though... She is so convinced that he is the ONLY man with whom she can have this connection, that they are start crossed lovers... despite the fact that he is married. And then, she can't remove herself from the situation because she is afraid she may lose him once an for all to his wife - not accepting that this has already happened.

 

Selfishly, she is holding on... even when he is trying to distance and perhaps, even let go...

[HowToQuit]

@OP

 

At the end of the day, we all do things that feel right to us personally, but not to other people. We are here all united by the fact that, at one point of time, we made a choice to be with a MM. Something that felt right to us for whatever reason at that point of time..

 

You said you are going to stay with him to support him as he works through his marriage issues... this is like inflicting pain in yourself over and over and asking for more... this is beyond the bad choice and I think this is what the collective insight recognizes here. May be this is something you can probe in deeper with IC why pain and suffering feels right for you. Hugs.

[finna]

Thanks for all the replies. It is interesting reflecting on everyone’s perspective. For those that are suggesting that I am settling and not focused on my best interests I will say that I have made some progress. Talking with an IC has been enlightening and I will continue to do that.

 

Of course I still want MM in a legit relationship- not to be his OW - it hurts like hell to not be his plan A. But I also am not interested in anyone else or even thinking about the dating game. As my IC says, MM has been and continues to meet needs for me that long went unmet in my marriage - which is a big part of the reason he is still in my life. At some point if he stays in his marriage of course it will not be enough.

 

IC says it’s okay to take my time and take action when the time is right for me. She was encouraging that MM and I were transparent about our intentions and boundaries. She was in no way presuming to diagnose his situation but said it was possible he is in an emotionally abusive codependent relationship - and that can be an insidious cycle to break away from - it may take years or he may never be able to even if it’s not a healthy place for him.

 

She helped me to reflect on what needs I am meeting for MM, and we talked about whether that enables him to stay in his marriage. We also talked about BS feeling very competitive towards me and how that has likely influenced her behavior in trying to improve their relationship. My earlier comments about them potentially being in a new honeymoon period were related to that discussion. Only time will tell if they’ve established a new relationship or if things will revert to the unhappy place they were at for many years.

 

Regardless of what happens I am grateful for the clarity this experience has provided me in what I do and don’t want from a relationship and what makes me really happy. I found the courage to leave an unhealthy marriage and we have had some fantastic times together.

 

I am sure the path forward will include more joy and more pain as we work our way to a conclusion of this chapter. I am striving to be my most authentic self - I’m not good at lying or playing games anyway - MM will hear my honest thoughts and feelings - including what I want and when I’m ecstatic or disappointed. He has free will to respond and make his decisions just as I do and one way or another we will pick our way through this- hopefully at the very least to be lifelong friends; perhaps (or not) something more.

 

In the meantime I continue to take care of myself the best that I can- nutrition and exercise, focusing on my son, putting energy into my job, going out with friends, trying a new meetup group, adjusting to the changes related to my divorce (exH is on vaca this week with his gf and all the kids). I have reestablished some family connections such as talking more often to my mom - she is aware of the situation and supporting of me as are several friends.

Edited July 25, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[ScaryPanda]

OP, I have dealt with many addicts in my life. And with all due respect, you sound exactly like one. It is all talk with you, no real action. Like in your previous thread, how you were “getting there” and “figuring things out”. You’re stalling, you clearly don’t want to help yourself. Many go sit around in therapy while they know exactly what to do. It takes tremendous pain to come back to Earth from this. If you were serious about wanting a life for yourself, you’d stop the waiting, you’d just get on with it. You’d start respecting yourself more and setting some boundaries. Hence why I said it’s very likely you need to hit absolute rock bottom.

 

You are clearly addicted to this man, borderline obsessed perhaps. From an outside perspective, I can’t see anything worth putting your life on hold and being the safety net for a liar. This is a dead end relationship. Realize that you deserve better.

Edited July 25, 2019 by ScaryPanda

[Starswillshine]

Having the man openingly run to your arms not even a week after his wife put down the hammer is NOT giving him space. You are being his crutch. And setting yourself up for a lot of hurt if he doesnt spend the time learning to be alone. And dealing with his emotions. Instead of using you as a way to prop himself up.

[Amethyst68]

You need a better IC, one who helps you with your boundaries. You can't do anything about other people's actions only your own.

 

As for your IC's speculations about MM's marriage, they're based on what you've told her, no facts just heavily biased thoughts based on what MM's told you. You're hearing what you want to hear, it's validation in a way, if MM's in some kind of an abusive marriage then you're doing what? Saving him? Doing something that's not so harmful to the marriage or his wife and child, who don't seem to factor into your c choices at all.

[BaileyB]

You need a better IC, one who helps you with your boundaries.

 

I would like to think that she has a plan and that she will get there... But, I tend to agree that you really need to discuss healthy boundaries and learn how to be ok in this world, without a man in your life. For your own personal growth, it is not helpful if you surround yourself with people who only support and enable your current decision making/situation.

 

It's not a good thing when you have women who have been in the same situation saying - "Why do you allow this? I would be gone in a heartbeat if my affair partner did this to me..."

[Zona]

As my IC says, MM has been and continues to meet needs for me that long went unmet in my marriage - which is a big part of the reason he is still in my life.

 

Honesty if that is what your IC says, then you need a new IC.

 

I suspect "meeting your needs" is something superficial on MM's part, like when sales people are super friendly and will do anything for you, but they have an ulterior motivation.

 

You need an IC that will challenge you, not be an enabler of behavior that is likely to cause you emotional harm in the long run.

[BaileyB]

As my IC says, MM has been and continues to meet needs for me that long went unmet in my marriage - which is a big part of the reason he is still in my life.

 

There is a big difference between discussing this thought, such that you can understand how you came to be in this affair... and using it as justification to stay in the affair. And that, is what I fear you are doing...

 

You need an IC that will challenge you, not be an enabler of behavior that is likely to cause you emotional harm in the long run.

 

Also my point, you just said it better...

[HowToQuit]

@OP

 

With travels, working and raising your son, there is not much time left for consistent IC... please tell us it’s not an online IC who you are talking to...

[finna]

What would those healthy boundaries look like? Completely no contact other than the minimal required work interactions? To me that doesn’t feel good or right at this point in time. As MM is long distance most of the time we do have separate lives, but the “friends first” part of our relationship means that he is part of my support system and helps and encourages me every day with big and small challenges... even if it is just s few exchanges to say I care about you - you’ve got this - hang in there with whatever the issue might be.

 

Yes I have other people in my life that can fill that role some of the time, but not in that daily consistent way that he checks in with me to make sure I’m doing okay. That kind of thing goes a really long way for me and is a primary reason I’m not ready to be NC. It feels good to have somebody make the time for that despite all else going on- and he is the only one in my life right now that meets that need and that I have the trust to talk about anything.

 

I think that’s part of the reason my IC is encouraging me to take the time to know what feels right before making bigger moves. For those asking “how can I allow this” or “find your self respect”... this type of thing is a major reason it is a process rather than a on/off switch.

[finna]

@OP

 

With travels, working and raising your son, there is not much time left for consistent IC... please tell us it’s not an online IC who you are talking to...

 

No- someone in person locally... specializes in marriage and family therapy as well as recovery from trauma.

[Lylalou]

I have read your previous thread and caught up on your new one this morning. My heart sunk when I read your update.

 

You cannot be friends with this man, the reason you think you can is because you are hoping he will see sense one day and choose you. The wedding ring would be the biggest red flag to me.

 

I am in no contact with my MM, he has lead me a merry dance for 6.5 years, he was my best friend and work colleague for 25 yrs and later my lover, the lies I have caught him out over the years has made me question my sanity. Please listen to these wise men and women on LS. The final straw for me was the big new extension/dream home, when I asked why, the answer was it’ll mean more money for him when he leaves!! He will never leave and I can’t wait the 4 more years he wants me to wait, wasting 10 yrs of my life in total. I’ve already wasted over 6 years. Oh yes and he wants to be friend, not happening because I wouldn’t treat an enemy like he has, he doesn’t deserve my friendship!

 

I know it’s hard but find your self worth and dignity and let him make a go of his marriage, if it doesn’t work, he knows your number.

[Zona]

What would those healthy boundaries look like? ... but the “friends first” part of our relationship means that he is part of my support system and helps and encourages me every day with big and small challenges... even if it is just s few exchanges to say I care about you - you’ve got this - hang in there with whatever the issue might be.

 

My WW's AP did all that stuff. He was the KISA that would swoop in at just the right time when my wife was dealing with abusive or even violent patients or family members. He CONSTANTLY complemented her and told her how smart she is, how beautiful, and was constantly encouraging her.

 

 

In the end, he was just a player that had learned how to get a woman into bed. My wife was not the only MW at the hospital to get entangled with him, and he was engaged to another woman at the time of the affair! He was a handsome guy who had been a professional athlete and was brimming over with charm and confidence.

 

 

Last I heard he lost his nursing license because of a failed drug test (cocaine).

 

 

Now I really don't know anything about your MM, but married men who engage in such behavior often have other issues boiling under the surface.

[BaileyB]

I think the point asaysno, is for you to find other support such that you don't have to lean on this man - because no good can come of this relationship. You have family, friends, a supportive ex-husband (with whom you also appear to lack some boundaries, when he is giving you advice about your affair), a counsellor... Let's be honest, you can't say that he is the ONLY person who can offer words of encouragement and support.

 

The bigger issue is that you should be trying to develop your own sense of self, your own resiliency, such that you don't need someone telling you everyday "you got this!" Seriously, that kind of codependency got you into an unhappy marriage and an unhealthy extramarital affair. I don't need someone in my life telling me - "You can do this." I KNOW I can do this. It doesn't mean that I don't ask for a listening ear, some words of support or encouragement, or advice every now and again... but, I have a whole circle of people around me who I know, would be willing to listen and offer encouragement if needed.

 

This is why I would suggest, you have a long way to go to get to the point that you feel like you are perfectly OK on your own... Talk with your counsellor about that though - how to decrease your dependency on men - this man. Spend some time without a man in your life - you may be surprised at just how competent you actually are!! You are an intelligent woman - you got this!! Ditch the man - he is like a wolf in sheeps clothing - offering support and friendship when he clearly has an alternative motive. Just... think about it.

[finna]

@zona

My MM is no saint to be sure- I recognize his many flaws as well as his good qualities. As far as issues- no doubt- he is a confident professional but lacks self esteem and courage in personal relationships... from the albeit filtered view I have gotten it stems from being neglected and ostracized by his mother as a child - it is still a very difficult relationship; marrying his wife (who has her own issue history) young and experiencing a lot of emotional toxicity over the years with that; and having a lot of difficult family relationships. As such he has an overwhelming need to please and not disappoint people- he tries to make/keep everybody happy to keep conflict at a minimum. He’s been in MC for years although I would guess he would ultimately benefit from IC to learn more about himself and what makes him happy.

 

For him, I am both a support system and an escape - someone who undoubtedly provides him at least fleeting moments of happiness. He fulfills some of the same for me and as such we are two very imperfect people who have created a connection that helps both of us cope with life. Do we both wish it could be different/more? Of course, although not necessarily in the same way. But here we are for now.

[BaileyB]

@asaysno,

That is some analysis of the situation. What you have described are two people, who have a variety of unresolved issues, coming together in a very codependent way to form a very unhealthy relationship.

 

How exactly do you think this will provide a happy and healthy future for you and your son?

[finna]

Let's be honest, you can't say that he is the ONLY person who can offer words of encouragement and support.

 

The bigger issue is that you should be trying to develop your own sense of self, your own resiliency, such that you don't need someone telling you everyday "you got this!"

 

I didn’t say he was the only person- I said he was the person who bothers to take the time to reach out on a consistent basis. And yes- I have had to experience being on my own and developing resiliency- for the two years before my divorce I did not have support at all from my exH... we might as well have been casual acquaintances who happened to be co-parents- he certainly wasn’t encouraging me about anything, we did very little together, and it was at this time I went out and established my own identify- it is part of what gave me the confidence to end the marriage, because I knew I would be okay. (Yes we have a far better relationship now - although we talk a lot less often than we did several months ago.)

 

I do appreciate what you are telling me as far as having a personal growth objective... I would say for 90% of my roles and identity I am secure and solid and can roll with the punches (as parent, friend, career, etc)... this relationship with MM is the one place I have allowed myself to be open and vulnerable.

[Lylalou]

For him, I am both a support system and an escape - someone who undoubtedly provides him at least fleeting moments of happiness. He fulfills some of the same for me and as such we are two very imperfect people who have created a connection that helps both of us cope with life. Do we both wish it could be different/more? Of course, although not necessarily in the same way. But here we are for now.

 

But you can change where you are now, give him the chance to work on his marriage, I to miss the phone calls and support but you are just enabling him in his marriage.

 

I know all to well how hard it is to change things, how miserable and heartbreaking it is to move forward without the man I love but if he really wanted me he’d be with me, not making plans with his wife.

 

Listen to the advice, otherwise I’m not sure why you are here seeking advice. I really hope things work out differently for you than most but please don’t waste your life waiting,

[sagamore]

If you really loved him, you’d let him go. He wants to work on his marriage. It’s healthier for him to give that an honest go and then decide what his future should be.

 

If he really loved you, he’d let you go. He’d recognize that this isn’t a healthy situation for you and that you deserve to be with one person who is all in. Who doesn’t need to keep you a secret.

 

But right now, each of you loves yourself more than you love the other person. So it continues.

[finna]

I know none of us know how long we get on this planet, but I think part of the answer as to why I don’t move on right away is that I feel like I have nothing but mostly empty time. Yes, there are my career and parental responsibilities, as well as the plans I need to eventually make to get my own place (exH and I still live on same property for the benefit of our son - it’s held in trust for next two years).

 

There will be travel, there will be times with friends and family, but ultimately it is a blank space in front of me. As I start to fill that or get more direction, I may feel less like I have nothing to lose by continuing to be involved with MM on some level.

[mark clemson]

I know none of us know how long we get on this planet, but I think part of the answer as to why I don’t move on right away is that I feel like I have nothing but mostly empty time ... ultimately it is a blank space in front of me. As I start to fill that or get more direction, I may feel less like I have nothing to lose by continuing to be involved with MM on some level.

 

 

When I read the last point you make - doesn't it make more sense to spend this time (which is a luxury to have, btw, although I can understand how it may feel "empty') working towards a relationship that's more likely to maintain into the future and be "real"?

 

I mean, if you were suddenly hospitalized, how likely is it that MM would have the ability (even if he had the desire) to stay by your bedside, support you in caring for your child, and help nurse you back to health while you convalesce?

 

I get having strong feelings for someone I'm not married to, but aren't you shortchanging yourself in so many ways here?

[BaileyB]

I think part of the answer as to why I don’t move on right away is that I feel like I have nothing but mostly empty time.

 

You, and every other single person on this planet. Honestly, I’m sure there are lots of lonely married people who also feel this way... Not to be a broken record, but it doesn’t give you the right to interfere in another marriage. It also doesn’t mean that you should make self-destructive choices. There are other ways to cope...

 

There will be travel, there will be times with friends and family, but ultimately it is a blank space in front of me.

 

Again, something for you to think about... Perhaps, you can try to learn to be alone and to embrace the fact that there is a blank space in front of you. YOU can make it virtually whatever you want (although, not with this man because he I said not leaving his marriage). I know, that’s daunting, but it’s als exciting!

 

As they say, those who are great company are never lonely. Learn to embrace the solitude and take this time to dream about a different future.

 

As someone once told me, some years are for questions and others are for answers. I have a feeling that this year is about questions for you... at least, I hope you ask the questions you need to ask because the answer for which you seek I say not likely to be found in this MM...