Next Chapter - MM & Me

[BTDT2012]

I didn’t say he was the only person-

 

I do appreciate what you are telling me as far as having a personal growth objective... I would say for 90% of my roles and identity I am secure and solid and can roll with the punches (as parent, friend, career, etc)... this relationship with MM is the one place I have allowed myself to be open and vulnerable.

 

 

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you allowed this with someone who was in a committed relationship with someone else.

[InvisibleLady]

I have been silently following along with your journey.

 

Your situation is sad. You are wasting your life on someone that can never and (more importantly) WILL NEVER give you what you want or need. Meanwhile hindering you from finding an available man who can.

 

When things ended with my xMM he said to me that he needed to focus on things at home ''right now'' (due to something unrelated to our A). [i felt like 'right now' meant he might be back and he did pop up again sporadically but that's not the point.]

My point is, as soon as he said that's where his focus needed to be, on his family - I had NOTHING left to say. I was done. I was not going to look and feel pathetic to continue contacting him or wanting to talk or insinuate myself into his life. And had he not reached out to me again weeks later, I never would have spoken to him again.

 

You MM was sad to see his family go, said he is working on his marriage and has a new wedding ring and potentially new vows to go with it. Do you need him to be mean and cruel or ghost you in order to get the point across?? That will feel MUCH worse. Although since he is selfish, he may keep you around for sex.

 

Either way, where is YOUR dignity in this??? You can do so much better! Good luck to you, OP.

[heartwhole2]

I would say for 90% of my roles and identity I am secure and solid and can roll with the punches (as parent, friend, career, etc)... this relationship with MM is the one place I have allowed myself to be open and vulnerable.

 

It's interesting that you frame these as opposites. I am all of these things -- I am open and vulnerable and secure and solid and can roll with the punches. It's my security and solidness and flexibility that allow me to be vulnerable.

 

Is what you're really saying that in 90% of your life you have healthy boundaries, but in the 10% of your life that represents your relationship with MM you do not? Like, I'm doing OK because with everything else I am not engaged in toxicity and dysfunction, it's just this sliver of my life with MM?

 

Why do you view healthy situations and relationships as lacking vulnerability? Are you compromising your values and well-being because you haven't figured out how to be vulnerable in the other 90% of your life? How can you set boundaries for yourself so that you reserve vulnerability for healthy situations and people?

 

You know my take on your MM. He's a conflict avoidant man who has gotten in over his head. He briefly got carried away and imagined a future with you, but he's now decidedly sticking it out with his marriage, even opening up his heart to it. But he's also fine with keeping the affair going via inertia.

 

My take on you is that you are allowing fear to be in the driver's seat. You cannot disengage from the situation because you are so afraid of losing MM that you cannot see straight. However, there is a part of you that wants to resolve the cognitive dissonance you are experiencing. You wouldn't come here and read pessimistic post after pessimistic post if you were totally OK with this situation. You just can't figure out how to gain the courage and resolve to do what's right for you. What if there's a chance he would leave BW and you blow it by going NC or giving an ultimatum or causing a DDay? You don't know how to deal with the heartache of losing him so you are stuck, hoping the oracle will say that he'll be yours one day after all, or that the courage and resolve and self-esteem will increase enough to get you through.

 

To that end, keep working on being as healthy as possible.

[finna]

My take on you is that you are allowing fear to be in the driver's seat. You cannot disengage from the situation because you are so afraid of losing MM that you cannot see straight. However, there is a part of you that wants to resolve the cognitive dissonance you are experiencing. You wouldn't come here and read pessimistic post after pessimistic post if you were totally OK with this situation. You just can't figure out how to gain the courage and resolve to do what's right for you. What if there's a chance he would leave BW and you blow it by going NC or giving an ultimatum or causing a DDay? You don't know how to deal with the heartache of losing him so you are stuck, hoping the oracle will say that he'll be yours one day after all, or that the courage and resolve and self-esteem will increase enough to get you through.

 

To that end, keep working on being as healthy as possible.

 

No doubt. I am scared ****less to think of life completely without him. I’m not even sure why that is other than the emotional component. I love this guy with all my heart and the heartache and grief of losing him feels worse than someone dying... with death there is finality and closure... losing a beloved friend and lover and knowing they are still out there somewhere is worse because there are choices involved that create the separation.

 

No, I’m not trying to be overly dramatic, and yes I know other people get through this. I think you’ve summed up the situation well and I’m just trying to take it one day at a time and do the best that I can... I’ll keep trying to be better.

[finna]

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you allowed this with someone who was in a committed relationship with someone else.

 

Likely because at the time he had what seemed a very reasonable explanation of why he could not leave for a few months but was committed to me and working towards our future. Being with him made me feel taken care of and joyful in a way I’d never felt before.

[anika99]

 

Regarding the comments about sex from several posters- I understand how it could be construed, but the way I relayed it here was perhaps not an accurate representation of the intent and tone. In our conversation I had said something similar to him in a complimentary way and he was truly acknowledging his appreciation for that part of our relationship... it is a comparatively small part but important as we have explored and learned much together- I’m not fussed at all about it- we have discussed many times how much we’ve enjoyed that part of the adventure.

 

I mean I have had relationships where my partner and I have openly expressed our sexual satisfaction with each other and I did not find it offensive but the difference was we were each other's one and only. My boyfriend was not telling me that I'm a fantastic f***, while he was driving home to f*** another woman. HELL TO THE NO!! And not only is he going home to f*** his wife every bit as good as he does you, he is also giving her all the other perks of being in a marriage. Like paying bills, taking the yard, holding hands while they watch TV, taking their child for outings, etc. So yeah, a man telling you that your a fantastic lay while he's driving home to give his heart and penis to another woman is certainly insulting and degrading.

 

The sad thing is I don't even know why you told us that other than to boast that he thinks you're great in the sack. You were flattered by his demeaning comments even as he's telling you that he would like to keep using you for sexual pleasure while also enjoying sex with his wife. Heck, they might be boinking each other's brains out right now. That is sooo gross when you think about it. The idea of man taking his dick back and forth between my vagina and another woman's vagina is repulsive to me. It would sicken his wife if she knew it was happening. Why doesn't it make you sick?

Edited July 28, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Poppy47]

What is it you don't get???? He is selfishly having sex and a great time with you while his wife and family are at home.

 

Wake up.

 

Poppy.

[lana-banana]

I asked him what he wanted me to be for him and he said a friend he can talk about everything with.

 

How was this not absolutely shattering? You love this man so much you've signed away all your dignity and self-respect and he just wants to be friends?

 

He asked me the same and I said if I’m fully honest I want to be best friends that talk every day, continue to have adventures together we wouldn’t get to do with anyone else, spend time together when we can- even just talking or cuddling, and be extremely discreet lovers.

 

But this isn't fully honest, or even mostly honest. You want him to leave his wife for you! You want a future together as his long-term partner! You want to be his one and only!

 

You sat down for a serious conversation about the future in which he effectively dumped you, again, and rather than be candid about your feelings you just lied. You lied and said you were satisfied just "spending time together when you can" and "having adventures". You even said you wanted to keep being "extremely discreet lovers"---i.e. someone he needs to keep a secret.

 

We know from your own words that this isn't what you want. NONE of this is honest. To state the obvious, if you can't even be honest with someone while discussing your goals for the relationship then the relationship is bound to fail.

 

He said he loved all of those things with me and needs to think about how to proceed.

 

Of course he said that! Instead of telling the truth, you gave him an answer that was specifically designed to be pleasing to him.* You gave him an extremely limited list of things that he's enjoyed in the past. You didn't ask for anything more, not even the self-respect to be fully acknowledged as a romantic partner and an equal, because you were afraid he'd reject you again.You said "if I'm fully honest, what I want is the absolute bare minimum of effort on your end." And the worst part is he couldn't even commit to that. He said he "needs to think about it."

 

Have you reflected on how it feels to be operating from a place of fear even with someone you supposedly love and trust? Have you really thought about what you're doing---ignoring your own needs in an attempt to please him---and why that's not fair to you? Do you truly believe this is sustainable, or something you even want to sustain?

 

* = as someone whose professional responsibilities involve determining whether someone is lying, this is way more obvious than you realize. To anyone considering a career in espionage, crime, or other types of deception: never tell the authorities exactly what they want to hear. It's a dead giveaway.

[BaileyB]

Likely because at the time he had what seemed a very reasonable explanation of why he could not leave for a few months but was committed to me and working towards our future.

 

Things have changed. To continue to allow yourself to be open and vulnerable with a man who can hurt you is not only unwise, it’s destructive.

 

If somebody lies to you, and takes items from you... you don’t continue to invite them into your home for dinner every night. “Here, take my tv, and my cell phone is on the table, and the extra cash is in my sock drawer...” No. You don’t trust that person anymore, you put up some boundaries “You can’t come to my house anymore” or “Our friendship is done”, and your protect what is yours.

Edited July 27, 2019 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

You sat down for a serious conversation about the future in which he effectively dumped you, again, and rather than be candid about your feelings you just lied.

 

Instead of telling the truth, you gave him an answer that was specifically designed to be pleasing to him. You gave him an extremely limited list of things that he's enjoyed in the past. You didn't ask for anything more. You said "if I'm fully honest, what I want is the absolute bare minimum of effort on your end." And the worst part is he couldn't even commit to that. He said he "needs to think about it."

 

Brilliant post!

 

Have you reflected on how it feels to be operating from a place of fear even with someone you supposedly love and trust?

 

Asaysno has already admitted, she fears losing him. She clings to him like a lifeline, because she is terrified to lose him.

 

Now, I love my boyfriend dearly. We are about to build a home together and start our lives together. But, if he cheated on me tomorrow, he would be gone from my life. I love him with my body and soul, but not in such a way that I am desperate to keep him. Not in a way that I am “scared ****less to think of a life without him.” Not in such a way that I would question whether I could continue in life without him.

 

In fact, I have already said goodbye to him once, when we were dating for a few months and he told me he wasn’t ready for a serious relationship. He wanted to continue to see each other and I said, no thank you. You get your needs met while I don’t get what I truly want from this relationship, no thank you.

 

You have an unhealthy attachment to the man when you are scared ****less to lose him - especially considering that you don’t actually have him. You have an unhealthy attachment to the man when you are willing to give away all your boundaries, self respect, and moral character to be in a relationship with him. You have an unhealthy attachment to the man when “the grief and heartache at the the thought of losing him seems worse than death.” It’s not. It’s just simply not.

Edited July 27, 2019 by BaileyB

[HowToQuit]

This collective therapy is powerful. I drawing my strength from all your insights.

@OP, you should join me :-)

[elaine567]

I love this guy with all my heart and the heartache and grief of losing him feels worse than someone dying... with death there is finality and closure... losing a beloved friend and lover and knowing they are still out there somewhere is worse because there are choices involved that create the separation.

 

Really??

Some guy you only met 2 years ago, have known for 10 months as a friend and for 6 months as a somewhat "intermittent" lover...

[BaileyB]

Things have changed. To continue to allow yourself to be open and vulnerable with a man who can hurt you is not only unwise, it’s destructive.

 

If somebody lies to you, and takes items from you... you don’t continue to invite them into your home for dinner every night. “Here, take my tv, and my cell phone is on the table, and the extra cash is in my sock drawer...” No. You don’t trust that person anymore, you put up some boundaries “You can’t come to my house anymore” or “Our friendship is done”, and your protect what is yours.

 

To take this analogy further, it’s doesn’t really stand up to the logic test if you say “but, he was the one person who I allowed myself to be open and vulnerable with...” The question becomes, you now have different information that he is in fact, a liar and a cheat. Doesn’t that change everything? You have trusted the wrong man - he is lying to you, stealing from you!! It doesn’t make much sense to continue to continue to open your home to this person and say “He is the one person I have allowed myself to be open and vulnerable with...”

 

Furthermore, the fact that you have good times together, you like the same movies, drink the same beer, and he makes you laugh doesn’t change the fact that you have opened the door wide and allowed him to take anything he wants on his way out the door...

 

Nobody in their right mind would do this. You wouldn’t let someone you know to be a liar and a thief into your home, and yet it’s exactly what you are doing when you lower you boundaries and say to this man “I’m yours. Take anything you want. I’m willing to give you anything...”

Edited July 27, 2019 by BaileyB

[Crazelnut]

So now we get to the heart of it. You are scared of losing him because then you'll be alone. THAT is where you & your IC should be doing all your work. You need to learn to live with yourself.

[anika99]

And OP when you asked him why he likes being with you he said that he can be himself with you. It seems to me that this is a common thing that MM tell their OW. "I can be myself around you. You accept me for who I am."

 

I think that translates to "I can be a cheating, self serving, lying jerk, and you still think I'm wonderful because you have low expectations and don't hold me to any standards". People who are doing wrong and who are destructive to themselves and others will naturally gravitate toward the people who will stroke their ego and accept their poor behaviour instead of telling them the truth and demanding better from them.

 

I used to be in a long term relationship with an alcoholic. He tried several times to quit drinking while we were together. When he wasn't drinking we had a nice relationship where we could get close and enjoy each other. When he would go back to drinking then he didn't like me much at all because I didn't approve of his behaviour and I had no problem voicing that and insisting that he do better. Then he preferred the company of his drunken drinking buddies because they were fun and they made him feel good. They would sit around drinking, patting each other on the back about what great guys they were while they were all choosing alcohol over their responsibilities and commitments. It was almost pathetically comical. As his alcoholism worsened and his health started to decline, me and a couple of his friends who actually did want the best for him would try to intervene, beg him to get help to no avail. He would storm off angrily to get loaded with his friends while telling us we didn't care about him because we didn't accept him as he was. He obviously had it backwards. His drinking buddies didn't care about him. They didn't care that he was becoming ill. They didn't care that he couldn't pay his bills after blowing his money buying everyone drinks. They didn't care when I had my bags packed and I was leaving him while he was broken and crying and begging me not to leave him. He didn't care about them either. They were all just using each other to feel good and enable each other's destructive behaviour.

 

To me, affairs are a lot like addictions. They are self destructive and destructive to others. When cheaters and affair partners describe their affairs they usually mostly talk about how the affair makes them feel so good. They become dependent on those good feelings and will give up everything good and worthwhile in their lives in order to keep those good feelings coming. They start ignoring their children, spend less time with good friends, stop working towards goals or attending to things that were once important. Their lives begin to revolve around the next meet up, the next text message. Even when they are trying to go about normal life and tend to normal things their heart is not in it, their mind is not present.When the affair hits a bump in the road and the affair partners are temporarily separated they become despondent, depressed and feel desperate. Desperate for their fix of feel good that they can only obtain from their affair partner. They throw away their principles and standards and accept the unacceptable, just like a drug addict will find themselves doing things they never thought themselves capable of before the were overcome by their addiction.

 

OP you and your MM are enabling the worst in each other. You are not holding each other to any standards or helping each other be their best. You don't really love each other for much else than how good you make each other feel. He doesn't care that you are alone, he doesn't care that he is hurting you by staying married, he doesn't care that this affair will only damage you in the long run. He only cares that you make him feel good when he needs a shot of feel good. You are the same. You don't care about the damage this affair might cause in his life, the hurt it could possibly cause to his wife and child and other extended family members and friends. You only care about getting those good feelings from him.

[BaileyB]

Well that certainly puts things into perspective Anika, as always...

[heartwhole2]

Likely because at the time he had what seemed a very reasonable explanation of why he could not leave for a few months but was committed to me and working towards our future. Being with him made me feel taken care of and joyful in a way I’d never felt before.

 

From your telling, you opened up to him so much that you two fell into bed together, at which point you ended your unfulfilling marriage. Then several months passed before he said he was planning to leave BW, which lasted 6 or 8 weeks.

 

I'm trying to point out that you've constructed a lot of justifications to explain why this relationship is so unique and meant to be. You are absolutely capable of being open and vulnerable with others. The fact that you chose an inappropriate and, at the time, dead-end relationship in which to be vulnerable doesn't mean this relationship is special. It means that you have a lot to work on to be a healthy individual and to be in healthy relationships.

 

I really do appreciate that you are here absorbing all our push-back. I know that you won't have peace until this all makes sense, and you are desperately hoping it makes sense in the "this is a special connection that was meant to be" category and not the "this is just another conflict-avoidant, addiction-laden affair" category. I give you credit for challenging yourself not to remain in denial. I hope your IC can help you bolster your sense of self so that you'll have the strength to handle any outcome and make healthy choices.

[BaileyB]

The fact that you chose an inappropriate and dead-end relationship in which to be vulnerable doesn't mean this relationship is special. It means that you have a lot to work on to be a healthy individual and to be in healthy relationships.

 

I hope your IC can help you bolster your sense of self so that you'll have the strength to handle any outcome and make healthy choices.

 

Well said. You will gain a new appreciation for how unhealthy this situation is only when you leave OP. Time and distance has a way of providing a certain clarity that is hard to find when you are in the middle of something...

[HadMeOverABarrel]

OP, after reading the posts on this page, it has struck me that maybe one of your core issues is attachment avoidance. Please discuss this with your IC. It's rarely apparent to the one who suffers it so don't dismiss this hypothesis before exploring it.

 

I've come to this conclusion after Heartwhole's last post discussing your choices about being vulnerable.

 

It's interesting that the one person you've decided to bare all your vulnerabilities to is the one least available to you. On a subconcious level, you may feel comfortable being vulnerable with him because you already know there's an expiration date to it. Whereas there is no limit to the depth or longevity of vulnerability you could potentially share with others. I think you should very seriously explore this in IC.

 

Edited to add: Perhaps this is also why you married a man you were not passionate about...it felt safe.

[finna]

Attachment avoidance is an interesting concept that I will certainly think about. It seems so paradoxical- I feel like I want a legit relationship with MM more than anything I’ve ever desired and it hurts to the core that I can’t - yet maybe it feels like the right thing because I’m afraid of being vulnerable and attached to someone?

[heartwhole2]

Attachment avoidance is an interesting concept that I will certainly think about. It seems so paradoxical- I feel like I want a legit relationship with MM more than anything I’ve ever desired and it hurts to the core that I can’t - yet maybe it feels like the right thing because I’m afraid of being vulnerable and attached to someone?

 

I think you got carried away with the connection/friendship and before you knew it, you were attached. Meanwhile, you and your ex had grown apart and you were not investing in close friendships with anyone else.* You've transferred all your human connection to this one (unavailable) guy.

 

I don't know anything about attachment avoidance so I could be way off, but my sense is that you found yourself surprised and overjoyed by the connection with someone. That's why you've given it so much meaning. Those of us who frequently connect with others are wondering why this was the exception, not the rule, for you.

 

As I've said before, whether or not you could have a happy relationship with this guy is not the most pressing question. He's already unavailable, so before he can become available he needs to determine if he can have a happy relationship with the person he already decided he could have a life-long happy relationship with. (If that doesn't make sense, well, it doesn't. Affairs are not logical.) If I'm ever widowed or divorced I'm sure there are people in my current circle I could have a happy relationship with, but that doesn't mean my marriage is the wrong choice. (And because I'm committed to my marriage, I have healthy boundaries that don't allow me to get attached to other attractive men.) In fact, the grass is greenest where I water it, so if I find myself thinking the grass is greener somewhere else, I'd better get out the hose and the fertilizer.

 

You guys are attached to each other, and that's all that means. That doesn't make your relationship healthy or meant to be. You're driven by this biological urge to secure this mate for yourself. You want what you can't currently have. Those are powerful forces, and right now they're in control. So you rationalize it by saying that the relationship is meeting certain needs that you have right now that would go unmet without the relationship. But apply that to any other kind of unhealthy relationship (like one with an addict) and you see the flaw in that thinking. And the idea that those needs would go unmet is based on a lack of confidence in your ability to connect with anyone else, but you've already shown you can connect with others. You just need to use that superpower in the right context.

 

*This should really be your focus right now. Why are you looking to a romantic relationship for all of your emotional support?

[finna]

I’m investing in close friendships the best that I can. I have a handful of people that I can call anytime day or night and I work to make time with these people. The difference is they have very busy lives as well and the most I can expect is getting together every few weeks with a bit of texting or a phone call or two in between. We care about each other and like to spend time together but life makes it limited due to everyone’s priorities. I have another friend (the other guy we travel with) who I see several days out of the week. He and his wife are some of my best friends and invite me to hang out frequently and are aware of my situation. Nonetheless I don’t want to wear out my welcome with them either so try to make sure they have space without me tagging along all the time.

 

With MM we talk daily and check on each other frequently. We know we are thinking of each other throughout the day. It’s just a different kind of connection.

[heartwhole2]

Does the nature of your job (the travel) make it difficult to develop and maintain friendships?

[finna]

I’ve actually made quite a few friends due to the travel, but they are scattered all over the globe rather than being local hangout buddies. I maintain the local friendships as much as I can- that’s more a case of everyone having very busy lives as the challenge. When I get back from each trip there are 5-6 people I text to meet up with individually for coffee or a hike or dinner or whatever... sometimes it works out and sometimes not.

[Amethyst68]

You probably won't want to hear this however abby friendships with people who condone and maybe even help you maintain being in in an affair are not ones you want to maintain. In general any friendships that encourage unhealthy behaviour should be cut off for your own health. You need to pursue healthy friendships and relationships, that includes stop discussing your AP with your ex.