Bf willing to eat dogs?!

[major_merrick]

Brain power and tool use make humans the apex predator. Other creatures such as raccoons and monkeys will make rudimentary use of tools. We, however, are unlike the animals and we make use of tools in a way that nothing else does. My husband's favorite cat can use objects in a tool-like manner and can manipulate a door knob, but she can't install a doorknob. Animals can have fascinating abilities, but they never reach our level. Foxes dig huge underground chambers and almost build little villages, but they don't lay pavement, drive cars, or install traffic signals. Beehives are quite complex and their social order works very well, but we keep them in boxes and make them work for us.

 

And, of course, being created by God to own the world and all the creatures in it is kind of the ultimate "up yours" to the animals on the food chain. "Kill and eat." Not just an option, but a command...one that I'm quite happy to obey if the product tastes good or is essential for survival. If dog tastes good or keeps me from starving, it is a reasonable choice.

[Timshel]

Lol, thinking we own the world is our worst and fatal mistake.

 

We have two pups so it's a hard no about giving it a try.

[thefooloftheyear]

Respectfully, TFY, if you put a killer whale in a forest, it will quickly get eaten by wolves. If you put a tiger in the middle of the ocean, it will quickly get eaten by sharks.

 

If you take a human outside of their social group, e.g. alone in the jungle instead of in a town surrounded by protective other humans, the human too quickly gets eaten.

 

Our social structure is the environment that makes us an apex predator. (And without it we're easy pickings.) Believe that was the point being made.

 

Your examples are absurd...Tiger in the Ocean?

 

Point is this...A human being, without the assistance of a tool, can and does get mauled and killed...and often consumed...each and every year...thousands of them....most doing nothing but going about their daily lives...They aren't hanging upside down or covering themselves in slabs if meat to appear appealing....Single rogue Bengal Tigers have been on record killing hundreds of humans...

 

There aren't thousands of Orca's or 2000 lb Saltwater crocoldile's getting mauled and killed by other animals while going about their daily lives in their native environment........Most live for decades without ever being close to being eaten/killed..Heck, even a common Snapping Turtle in your local pond can live a hundred years and never be the victim of any predator, but a human with a tool...

 

TFY

[johan]

I think eating other predators is a bad idea.

[Springsummer]

Now, those of you who are judging them can judge all you like from the comfort of your nice house in a developed country with potable water coming out of your taps and your fridge full of food, and never having gone to bed hungry before. But if YOU or your children were starving and there were animals around? I'd like to see you sit on your high horse and let your child die just because you "don't eat dog".

 

Most of the time those people eat ...not because they have to but because they want to, especially in some Asian countries. Very few are truly starving.

 

Someone(lives in a subtropical place, I am too ashamed to say exactly where and who) told me she used to have a cat and a dog in the house. Cat and dog are closed. One day she killed the cat and ate it. then she threw a piece of the meat to the dog. The dog jumped and looked at her repulsed/disgusted/shakened(forgot the exact words my relative used). Apparently the dog realized who that meat belongs to and not going to eat it like human.

 

Can't understand why she had the gut to tell me that. Had she realized that means sometime some humans are lesser than dogs?

 

I was haunted by the story ever since.

[basil67]

And, of course, being created by God to own the world and all the creatures in it is kind of the ultimate "up yours" to the animals on the food chain. "Kill and eat." Not just an option, but a command...one that I'm quite happy to obey if the product tastes good or is essential for survival. If dog tastes good or keeps me from starving, it is a reasonable choice.

 

If Christianity is all about an 'up yours' to the animals on the food chain, I'm very glad to be athiest.

[basil67]

We are not yet at the day when a surfer in the ocean will survive a serious attack by a Great White. Humans the top of the food chain? I think not.

[Arieswoman]

mm post 51#

 

 

And, of course, being created by God to own the world and all the creatures in it is kind of the ultimate "up yours" to the animals on the food chain. "Kill and eat."

 

 

Where do it say "kill and eat" - must've missed that part of Genesis..??

 

 

 

 

Humans serve a stewardship role toward creation, not an ownership role (Gen. 2:15). This stewardship pertains to everything and is intended to include an attitude of respect (Lev. 25:3-5; Num. 35:33). The animals are subject to humans, but they are not ours to do with as we will. They belong to God (Job 41:11; Ps. 50:10-11).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Basil post#56

If Christianity is all about an 'up yours' to the animals on the food chain, I'm very glad to be athiest.

 

 

It isn't.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Arieswoman

[basil67]

Basil post#56

 

It isn't.

 

Yes, I always get a chuckle about the different interpretations of people from the same religion.

[Arieswoman]

the different interpretations of people from the same religion.

 

 

Such as?

 

 

 

I am still waiting for MM to come back to me with the text that says 'kill and eat'

[mark clemson]

Point is this...A human being, without the assistance of a tool, can and does get mauled and killed...

 

Completely true, but that wasn't my argument. It's when you take into account the social and technological environment (including portable technologies) that we become the apex predator.

 

 

There aren't thousands of Orca's or 2000 lb Saltwater crocoldile's getting mauled and killed by other animals while going about their daily lives in their native environment

 

Again true, but that's only because we don't like to eat them that much. We have easier food sources or consider them valuable in other ways. If a group of humans makes either of these species a staple at some point, that's exactly what will happen. (And see below about sharks.)

 

 

We are not yet at the day when a surfer in the ocean will survive a serious attack by a Great White. Humans the top of the food chain? I think not.

 

Again yes, but this is an isolated human outside the protection of their social environment and with minimal tools. Give that same person a medium sized fishing boat and great white indeed IS on the menu if he wants it to be.

 

Not only do sport fishermen kill sharks with some regularity, but industrial fishing, especially for the asian markets kill 100's of thousands of sharks annually.

 

I feel like we're arguing points we all already know. Without tech and cooperation we're prey, with tech and cooperation we're top predators.

[thefooloftheyear]

Most humans now collapse into a heap if the WiFi goes down....Its hard to think of that person as the apex of anything at this point...

 

TFY

[mark clemson]

Point taken...

[Poutrew]

Most humans now collapse into a heap if the WiFi goes down....Its hard to think of that person as the apex of anything at this point...

 

TFY

 

This goes to the point I previously made about the 90% kill rate when the electricity goes out. The flabby, incompetent, dull, too young or too old 90% is what's going to die without their air conditioning and medical drugs. The 10% that's left will be the human apex predator. An animal is apex because of a good set of tools, be it teeth, muscles, or claws. Humans are also apex because of a good set of tools - semi-auto rapid fire rifles, and nuclear bombs. Take away the apex predator's set of tools, whether animal or human, and all you have left is an easy meal. To argue otherwise is folly - I can almost see the human herd separating into the flock or the wolves in just this post alone... which proves my point.

[amaysngrace]

Can you please post that article that you are so confident about occurring, poultree? It’d be nice to have the reference since it’s the basis for how this discussion began.

 

Thank you.

[thefooloftheyear]

This goes to the point I previously made about the 90% kill rate when the electricity goes out. The flabby, incompetent, dull, too young or too old 90% is what's going to die without their air conditioning and medical drugs. The 10% that's left will be the human apex predator. An animal is apex because of a good set of tools, be it teeth, muscles, or claws. Humans are also apex because of a good set of tools - semi-auto rapid fire rifles, and nuclear bombs. Take away the apex predator's set of tools, whether animal or human, and all you have left is an easy meal. To argue otherwise is folly - I can almost see the human herd separating into the flock or the wolves in just this post alone... which proves my point.

 

Horrible argument...

 

Teeth, size, musculature, speed, etc aren't really "tools'...They are what the animal was born with...Whereas a human has to rely on a firearm to survive...Something it wasn't born with....

 

Even the fittest Navy Seal would have no chance in that case...

 

TFY

[major_merrick]

I am still waiting for MM to come back to me with the text that says 'kill and eat'

 

Well, now that I've killed and eaten today, I'll give a couple of references.

 

 

Genesis 9:1-3

"So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs."

 

So yes, I can eat anything. Any animal can be my dinner, and that possibility puts me at the top of the food chain and makes everything else fear me.

 

Acts 10:9-16

"The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again."

 

This vision wasn't just about food, but was about removing the stigma of Jews vs. Gentiles and the old Law of Moses vs. the new covenant. Peter was on his way to the house of Cornelius, the Roman centurion. But one aspect of this message is applicable here - any animal is given to people by God as a food source.

[amaysngrace]

God also has a commandment of “thou shalt not kill” which is a lot more powerful than somebody’s dream since they are Gods Laws.

 

Just sayin.

[major_merrick]

It was never "thou shalt not kill." It was "thou shalt not murder." It doesn't apply to animals at all, and only to human beings in a specific kind of killing (ie. outside of warfare/self-defense/criminal penalty).

[amaysngrace]

It was never "thou shalt not kill." It was "thou shalt not murder."

 

The Bible also says if someone is hungry to feed them but you want to shoot them instead. lol

[Poutrew]

Can you please post that article that you are so confident about occurring, poultree? It’d be nice to have the reference since it’s the basis for how this discussion began.

 

Thank you.

 

Here ya go:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/military-warns-emp-attack-could-wipe-out-america-democracy-world-order

 

This is just one article of many, and mainly deals with an attack by an enemy nation. It could also occur naturally as the sun can throw out a 'superflare' that can totally fry everything. This happened once before in 1859. Google 'Carrington Event' . Of course, back then we didn't have electronics that were susceptible - but it happened again a few years ago in 2012. Space scientists think that the 2012 event was even larger than the 1859 event - but we got lucky as the earth was out of direct alignment. We missed world destruction by only 9 days...

 

 

Here's an article direct from NASA concerning the July 2012 Solar Superstorm:

 

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2014/23jul_superstorm

Edited August 4, 2019 by Poutrew

[Arieswoman]

MM,

The theological view is as follows (Part 1)

 

]Genesis Ch 1 v29-30

 

God intends a vegetarian diet for man.

“And God said 'behold I have given you every plant yielding ssed ….and every tree with seed in its fruit: you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and... everything that has the breath of life I have given every green plant for food'”

 

 

God then reviews this vegeatarin creation and finds it “very good” Ch1 v 31

 

 

It is true that Genesis Ch1 v28 states “God said unto them, be fruitful and multiply, and to fill the earth and subdue it and you have dominin over the fish of the sea and ove rthe birds of the air and every living thing that moves on the earth.” Yet the next verse tells man only to eat plant matter.

Consequently we understnd humankinds 'domination' to be a sacred responsibility. Human's are called on to be good stewards of God's Creation, protecting and nourishing the earth and its inhabitants

It does not follow that 'domination' includes either oppression or abuse.

 

 

]Gen Ch2 18-19 relates “ It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him” and then God created animals. According to that passage, animals were made as Adam's companions and helpers and not his food.

 

[After Adam & Ever were expelled from Eden, food was no longer so readily available, so certain descendents of Adam may have believed it was OK to eat animals. Yet it was only after the Flood that the God gave explicit permission for Noah's family to eat meat (obviously there was little vegetation left). However, it does not require that all Noah's descendents eat meat.

 

 

[sIZE=2]Moving on. Hebrew Scripture and traditions required minimising pain and forbade cruelty.

Kosher slaughter arose as a primitive form od animal welfare.

 

 

Isaiah prophesises a return to an Eden-like existence when the Messiah comes. 11: v 6-7, 9

 

Hosea says similar 2 v18

 

No doubt , one can interpret individual verses in self-serving ways …

 

 

Many early Christian groups were vegetarian. Ref Jean Danielou – The Theology of Jewish Christianity.(Chicago ; Henry Regenery Co 1964.) & Hans-Joachim Scloeps – Jewish Christianity ; Factitonal Disputes in the Early Church (Philadelphia Fortress Press 1969)

Edited August 4, 2019 by Arieswoman

[Arieswoman]

The Theological view (part 2)

 

 

Peters vision in Acts10 ; 1 - 11 & 18 was not to do directly with meat eating. It was an allegory sent by God to Peter. It should not be taken to mean that God was instructing Peter to break Rabbinic Dietary Laws.

 

 

It is explained here:

 

 

https://www.all-creatures.org/discuss/svtacts10.1-11.18-flh.html

 

 

and here

 

 

https://veganchristian.tumblr.com/post/71034356607/peters-vision-all-things-clean

 

 

 

 

But one aspect of this message is applicable here - any animal is given to people by God as a food source.

 

 

no it isn't, as it has been explained.

 

 

 

Jewish dietary laws are set down here; http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm

Edited August 4, 2019 by Arieswoman

[major_merrick]

While vegetarianism can be considered an acceptable type of fasting for a religious reason, the idea that God intends a vegetarian or vegan diet for us is incorrect. Killing a lamb for Passover was a command. Some of Jesus' disciples were fishermen, and in a couple of places in the Gospels Jesus eats fish...which have been caught and killed. And presumably, since the Last Supper was a Passover dinner, Jesus ate lamb there.

 

The vision related in the text in Acts has more than one layer of meaning as I mentioned - the first layer of meaning related to the situation with Cornelius, the second layer about dietary and Old Testament law in general. This is in sync with Mark 7, where Jesus addresses the traditions of the Pharisees and declares all foods pure - the condition and type of food is irrelevant, while the condition of a person's heart and mind are the issue. Paul finishes off this issue in 1 Corinthians 10:25-26 "Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; for 'the earth is the Lord's and all its fullness.'” Interestingly, in the early church vegetarianism was seen as a sign of heresy. The perspective in those days was that a vegetarian lifestyle was an overt refusal to make use of God's creation, and was rebellious and disrespectful.

[Arieswoman]

MM

 

 

Interestingly, in the early church vegetarianism was seen as a sign of heresy

that was not correct - see my links about early Christians.

 

 

The perspective in those days was that a vegetarian lifestyle was an overt refusal to make use of God's creation, and was rebellious and disrespectful.

I think you are talking about the Albigensian Crusade which came much later 1209 - 1229AD

 

The link you gave from Corinthians covers Paul's discorse about meat that had been sacrificed to idols. He wanted to reassure his followers on this issue.

 

In addition, in a country with little rain and much sparse vegetation, eating meat was not always a choice.

We must interpret these passages set against a backdrop of the times in they were referring to.

 

 

IMO it is more importnat that choose to recognize that we are all part of the vast number of sentient beings that are united in our capacity to suffer and feel pain. It is our unique privilege as a species to be able to choose to refrain from inflicting suffering upon our fellow sentient beings.

 

It’s impossible, I MO, to make this entire argument and also accept the Bible as an inspired revelation from God. If one is a Christian, the task is to harmonize biblical teaching with your beliefs on this score.

 

 

The most plausible interpretation of God’s attitude toward meat as expressed in the bible, taken as a whole, is that permitting humans to kill and eat animals was a concession to our fallen state.