If God does exists, He's abandoned his children

[BC1980]

I was watching a documentary on people who live with schizophrenia and psychosis. Some peoples lives get absolutely destroyed because of these illnesses. .

 

It's so weird that you mention this because mental illness (to the extreme extent you are talking about) is something that really makes me question if there is a God. It's such an awful quality of life that is no ones fault. Why in the world would God make someone that way or allow it?

 

I have asked all the questions you are asking for years, and I have no answers. Basically, I hope that God and an afterlife exists. I act as if God exists. I can't say that I actually believe it though. One thing I learned is that you don't control what you believe. I tried for years to make myself believe in God, but it never happened. It's such an isolating experience. I finally just had to realize that I won't have that faith others have. I haven't yet made peace with that, and I don't know if I ever will.

[Veronica73]

Or perhaps if he exists, we’re like TV for him. Or a Grand Theft Auto video game!

[major_merrick]

I woke up early this morning thinking about this post in relation to my own situation and the anger that I feel. Interesting… I don't think I have ever taken the time to see God as a being with actual emotions but it does ring true. Thank you.

 

 

You're welcome. The nice thing is, once you figure out that God has emotions, you realize that He is big enough to process yours. I've been watching how my husband prays. NOT the kind of prayer you see in movies or at church. You can bring anything to Him, including anger. Especially anger. God never tells you not to be angry....just that there's things not to do when you're angry. In fact, I don't recall a place in Scripture where God ever denies the reality of human emotions, condemns them, or tells us to repress them.

 

 

Or perhaps if he exists, we’re like TV for him. Or a Grand Theft Auto video game!

I used to think that way. But if God was evil like that, He wouldn't have created a beautiful world for us to live in. There wouldn't be nice things like cats and sunsets and wine. God wants us to have joy, and good relationships, but free will meant that there was a possibility for evil to come in and mess it up. The devil, a broken world, and sinful people make things the way they are now. The involvement of those things (and the fact that evil has not yet been eliminated) make life a mystery sometimes.

[Veronica73]

I used to think that way. But if God was evil like that, He wouldn't have created a beautiful world for us to live in. There wouldn't be nice things like cats and sunsets and wine. God wants us to have joy, and good relationships, but free will meant that there was a possibility for evil to come in and mess it up. The devil, a broken world, and sinful people make things the way they are now. The involvement of those things (and the fact that evil has not yet been eliminated) make life a mystery sometimes.

 

But what about natural disasters and diseases? A lot of those have nothing to do with sinful people, but yet tons of people suffer from those things.

[amaysngrace]

The argument from suffering is a huge obstacle to get around.

 

Jesus suffered immensely. He was okay with it because of his love for God.

 

Once you wrap your head around that it helps make bad things happening to good people easier to accept.

 

It still sucks, but it doesn’t mean God abandoned anyone. Like basil says, it’s likely the other way around.

[MetallicHue]

It's so weird that you mention this because mental illness (to the extreme extent you are talking about) is something that really makes me question if there is a God. It's such an awful quality of life that is no ones fault. Why in the world would God make someone that way or allow it?

 

 

This is an excellent question. I have suffered tremendously from mental illness. I don’t understand why and I’ve had it since being a child. What did a child do wrong to deserve it? I try to unsuccessfully argue in my head that earth is just a stepping stone for the afterlife and we have free will. But then I question why does everyone have to suffer. If God had the power why couldn’t we live in utopia. It’s almost like life is supposed to be kiss up to god and regardless of how much we suffer we’re just supposed to have faith. There are some things I may only understand in death.

[major_merrick]

But what about natural disasters and diseases? A lot of those have nothing to do with sinful people, but yet tons of people suffer from those things.

Those things are mostly caused by a world that is out of balance due to original sin. And the devil gets into it sometimes too. Jesus healed disease repeatedly in the New Testament and showed compassion for people who suffered. He can bring healing, or simply bring acceptance and peace. He doesn't cause suffering...instead he promises an afterlife and a brand new world in which suffering is removed. Then our lives here will seem like a distant memory and we'll get to understand some of the things that really confuse us now.

 

Suffering is the big obstacle to faith. Definitely has been for me. It is rough to accept that there's some things we can't do anything about, and it is rough learning that God can delay an answer to prayer or say no altogether. It doesn't feel good at all, and accepting that you are not in control and won't understand some things is an uncomfortable process. God is OK with feelings, and can begin to bring you peace about a situation even with that situation isn't getting resolved right now.

[Veronica73]

Well, I don’t know what to say about that, MM. Gives me some things to think about. So thank you for that.

[major_merrick]

MetallicHue, I definitely identify with the mental illness issue. I've dealt with depression, and my husband deals with depression and (I suspect) PTSD. I would love it if there was a quick fix, an answered prayer, or something to take it all away and get rid of the nightmares and panic attacks and bad days. Even with his close relationship with God, the answer hasn't showed up. I don't understand the plan, although I get some of the philosophical issues surrounding it.

 

What I find interesting is how God works through suffering. He doesn't cause it, but He promises to work everything into something good. My husband's PTSD and nightmares? One night he spent time with an employee who was going through the same exact thing and was ready to commit suicide. My husband was in the right place at the right time...either by chance or by God's plan. He had the exact life experience necessary to reach out to a fellow sufferer, and that man is still alive today. Maybe it was coincidence, maybe something more.

 

For me, it was my issues growing up and my terrible relationship with my mother. Now I'm befriending a girl who is from a similar background. Doesn't make my suffering any less, but it does make use of my experiences and gives me a reason to still be alive.

 

Our life isn't just a stepping stone to the afterlife. It has real worth, and part of that worth comes from how we handle the suffering. We either draw closer to God or push Him away. We either allow Him to bring something good out of our experiences, or we resist and get angry.

 

God has the power, but there's also free will involved. Someday He will make a utopia for us. I think that day is coming soon. And He promises to clean up all the mess and take away all the pain. I'm hanging on to that, since it is the only thing that makes sense to me.

[amaysngrace]

Mental illness and genius are related.

 

Beethoven and Isaac Newton come to mind.

[mark clemson]

My take would be somewhat different although I agree that there's value in being the right person at the right place and time and that the Creator might occasionally have a hand in it.

 

Basically, though, I see the Creator as more of a "system architect". He created the universe, the universe eventually created you, and now you're here (flaws such as mental illness and all).

 

I don't see the Creator as having true hatred in the human sense. My guess is he's beyond that. I could be wrong. It's also true that if a blue whale gives you a "gentle slap" you're going to feel it in spades and the Creator is MUCH bigger that a blue whale, so perhaps a tiny bit of frustration or similar from him SEEMS like a huge amount of emotion, since his mind is so much vaster than ours. The same would hold true of his love (which I believe one can feel during prayer). It may be a teeny tiny sliver of his true emotion but seems vast to us. My guess is he has a lot more love than hatred, despite all the flaws of humanity and the world.

 

For me, the presence or absence of things (such as divine emotion) in the Bible and similar don't mean much. It's just stuff written by people IMO as they tried to record and explain their genuine gnostic experiences, but filtered through their own brains and thus culture, biases, etc. And there seem to be a lot of accretion of other stuff, such as old stories (Jonah), history (Exodus), and social rules along with the gnostic aspect.

[Rayce]

But what about natural disasters and diseases? A lot of those have nothing to do with sinful people, but yet tons of people suffer from those things.

 

About 15 or more years ago I did a road trip to Yellowstone and as I stood there watching "old faithful" blow for the 100th billionth time... I had this ah ha moment where my perception of our planet changed. For me in the moment I saw our planet as a living breathing being and I was standing on her face like a flea on my dog! So now I see natural disasters as the planet reacting to the fleas on her and she is just trying to get rid of them.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Rayce

[major_merrick]

For me, the presence or absence of things (such as divine emotion) in the Bible and similar don't mean much. It's just stuff written by people IMO as they tried to record and explain their genuine gnostic experiences, but filtered through their own brains and thus culture, biases, etc. And there seem to be a lot of accretion of other stuff, such as old stories (Jonah), history (Exodus), and social rules along with the gnostic aspect.

I see Scripture in a very different light. Every word is inspired, and every word is there for a reason. Some stuff is left out for a reason as well. The whole Bible is end-to-end one giant long love letter from our Creator. The rules in it are not meant to ruin our fun, but are guidelines for how to live well and do our best while we're here.

 

If a group of people set out to write a holy book or a bunch of "wisdom literature," the folks in the Bible would not be who you'd want to write about. Abraham the liar, Isaac the hypochondriac, Jacob the cheat, Jacob's children (a pack of murderers, liars, and all-around terrible people). Generations of faithless Israelites and whining prophets. Three apostles who fell asleep praying and who went around carrying weapons. An apostle who persecuted the early church and had disciples stoned to death. To me, it seems that Scripture is so real because it is so different from the rest. When you read it, you see something new every single time.

[mark clemson]

Fair enough and this is your choice and your faith. I see a lot of wisdom and insights in it, but also (what are to me) a lot of problems for a variety of reasons. Nonetheless there's only one God - I believe in him and so do you (and so did Bin Laden). I believe we should tolerate other's views (as I believe you do too). The specifics of what we ("ants") know or think we know may matter less than we think in the end.

[gaius]

I think that as humans we've often ventured so far from what we're supposed to be. Especially you endless, with that miserable situation you're in. That's not what life is supposed to be. It's very easy to see little but suffering from that position. Or to feel forsaken.

 

I used to be in that position, but I've worked hard to carve out a better life for myself. And as I have bliss has crept in. Most often in moments with my wife, once in a while when I'm driving along to somewhere, occasionally when I'm listening to music. I was walking with my headphones on last night listening to Sarah McLachlin of all people, looking up at the stars and it hit me. And once it does you kind of understand why God doesn't interfere more. Life is the greatest gift you can be given. It's up to you to unwrap it.

[E-mc2]

Where is God when children are being physically and mentally abused? Isn't the job of a good father to protect his children from harm? To make sure they grow up with a healthy self-esteem? That they feel loved? That they feel some sense of importance or worth?

 

I have a problem with that one too. If god is omnipotent then he's not doing a very good job. I get it how there are lessons, growth and maturity in life. But that only goes so far. I would never stand by and watch my child be molested or raped. The perpetrator would be a dead man... literally. I would only let sin go so far.

 

Who knows how many young women (and men) are sold into the slave sex trade these days. It's real. Just google it. If I were god I would at least draw a line in the sand.

 

I don't struggle with this much. I either believe there is no god, or he is unable to do anything about it. An omnipotent, omniscience and all loving god wouldn't let it happen. It's proof for the atheist, agnostic view IMHO.

[Trail Blazer]

God only exists in people's minds. Religion only exists because of a yearning to understand and make sense of a world in which science had yet to satisfactorily explain. It was then hijacked by those that wished to use it as a mechanism of control. Religion survived and thrived in its inception through violence.

 

What we know about the world today renders religion redundant. It's only through tradition and indoctrination that this belief system is still passed down. Almost everyone who believes in god today is someone who has had a certain religion presented to them as a factual basis for how the universe was created, before the time they've reached mental maturity.

 

Is it any wonder that almost everyone born in the Middle East is a Muslim? Is it any wonder that almost everyone born in southern USA is some denomination of Christian? Ask yourself why?

 

Ask yourself; if you were not born in a western country where Christianity was the only religion presented to you as a viable belief system, and instead you were born in, say, Iraq, do you honestly believe that you would be a Christian despite your cultural influence having been nothing other than Islam presented as truth?

 

If you can honestly say that you believe you would be following a different religion if you were born in a different part of the world where Christianity wasn't presented to you, then that is the first step in acknowledging that you're suffering from religious indoctrination. If, however, you can't honestly answer that, then you're suffering from cognitive dissonance.

 

God hasn't abandoned anyone. Heaven and Hell are human constructs made up from the minds of the observable agony and ecstasy experienced on earth. It's pure luck where you're born. You could be born in a privileged upper class family in the west, or you could be born in an impoverished, war torn country in Africa or the Middle East. One is objectively heaven, the other hell.

 

People like to believe in god as it gives them comfort. If an uncomfortable truth is less pleasant than a comfortable lie, then by all means, live your life how you see fit and be the best person you can, not through fear of burning in hell, but because your own morals dictate that.

 

However, if the comfortable lie, that being there's an all loving, all knowing being that created everything, is not presenting itself as so comfortable after all, then you have a choice. Re-evaluate your faith. Ask yourself what are you gaining from having blind faith in a concept that appears counterintuitive in practical reality to its virtuous posturing.

[Libby1]

@endlessabyss. Are you all right? Have things got worse or better since you last posted?

[Justanaverageguy]

I have a problem with that one too. If god is omnipotent then he's not doing a very good job. I get it how there are lessons, growth and maturity in life. But that only goes so far. I would never stand by and watch my child be molested or raped. The perpetrator would be a dead man... literally. I would only let sin go so far.

 

The descriptions of God in the bible are more in line with God being a living system we grow from. Kind of like in cellular biology. Imagine God as being the larger living "body" and we the smaller living "cells" within that body. The universe itself being "god" or what the bible called the "tree of life" - we the smaller branches that grow from the energy of that larger living tree. Think of the universe itself as being alive - and the totality of it being God.

 

Can a body abandon its cells or a tree abandon its branches ? Its a nonsense idea - the cells are literally a part of it - just as we are a part of God/universe. To abandon the cells is to abandon the smaller parts which form it. But whilst the larger body has power which dwarfs that of a single cell and has ultimate control over the living system - still within it there is the possibility for the smaller cells to be corrupted by pathogens or rebel against it and do damage to other cells. In the human body we call these types of cells "cancer".

 

Can a body prevent cancerous cells damaging other cells ? Not entirely no - but it tries. It does its best to intervene where it can to prevent this - to save the healthy cells - and ultimately protect itself. We use modern medicine to intervene and remove cancerous cells in our own bodies - but that doesn't mean we are able to prevent all damage. It is similar with God - he cuts off those cells that turn malignant and do damage to other cells but unfortunately some Good cells often still get damaged.

 

I am the vine - you are the branches. Any branch in me that bares no good fruit is cutoff, and every branch that does bear fruit, is pruned to make it even more fruitful

 

“For truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine ........ you did it unto me.’:

Edited November 3, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Ronni_W]

On 9/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, BC1980 said:

It's so weird that you mention this because mental illness (to the extreme extent you are talking about) is something that really makes me question if there is a God. It's such an awful quality of life that is no ones fault. Why in the world would God make someone that way or allow it?

The stuff that we suffer on Earth is NOT God's Will for us...we know that it is not because of what Jesus taught during his Ministry.     Jesus' torture and crucifixion was part of his Mission and Service to Life on Earth; it is not properly explained in The New Testament, so people have ended up with a lot of misconceptions around it. The book, Jesus the Last Great Initiate, offers some insight into a new spiritual understanding of it.

Without a belief in and basic understanding of the Cosmic-Universal Law of Karma, we will not ever be able to make sense of all of the different types of suffering, violence, etc., that we see on this planet.  Suffice to say that it is NOT God's Will but it is the consequence of us not having followed the true Will and true Laws of God (including in all of our past lives). By which I mean not only the true Spiritual Commandments but also the true Renunciations (as detailed in the book, Pistis Sophia) and also not cultivating and manifesting on Earth our own true Pure Nature, or, in other words, to stop individual or our personal suffering, we need to follow the example that Jesus demonstrated in his last lifetime on Earth (which also was a part of his Mission and Service to Life).