Waited too long?

[TooLateNow]

I only mention it so your not lulled into a false sense of security. She is already taking walks with a man during her lunch hour. I am hoping it all works out for you. peace...

 

I understand about not being lulled into a false sense of security. Feelings can change quickly. It has been less than a week since I first posted and I realize this is barely a blip in a 39 YEAR relationship. And her feelings can change just as quickly as mine.

 

At this point she has changed and is trying hard to fix the things she broke. For my part, I am trying to be the best husband I can be because I do not think this or any marriage really can thrive unless both partners are working at it. I am hoping we both sustain our efforts so we can enjoy each other and our union for the rest of our lives together.

 

I think you might have mixed me up with another OP on the walks during lunch thing.

 

Thank you for the well wishes. Peace to you as well.

Edited August 13, 2019 by TooLateNow

[TooLateNow]

So will this time of selfleshness erase the time of selfishness? And how long will it take? And after this time is over, will you feel ready to trust her again without knowing where she is 24/7? And will it be easy to go back to a carefree trusted relationship after spending so much time monitoring her?

 

I still feel this is a way to balance the sacrifices you are doing with sacrifices she must do in order for you to justify to yourself why you are staying. Her making the choice to stay or to be monitored has nothing to do with it. You drove her to this choice because you were not feeling comfortable with you doing all the effort and her doing nothing.

 

I'm sorry but if you can't forget nothing will change. We all have bad things happening in our lives that we get sad or sick remembering them, but we learn to let them be buried in our minds. If you can't forget, all the self punishing your wife does is moot. She will always find herself as a defendant.

 

No one can “erase” the past or undo what has been done. However, when people make selfish choices that hurt others they can and I believe should try to fix the harm they caused.

 

And I do not intend to monitor her 24/7. I could not do that if I wanted to because I have a full and busy life and schedule. Also, I do not want to do that. I will occasionally check. I am guessing it would be once a month or less.

 

I will probably never have 100 percent trust and we will likely never have a completely carefree trusting relationship. But that is not because of limited monitoring. It is because she had three affairs and lied about them for decades. We cannot have our old relationship because the truth is what it is, but I think we can still have a great relationship and one that is better than it is today.

 

I do not agree with your implication that people can just forget bad things that happened in the past. I have also learned the hard way that trying to bury bad memories and feelings is a terrible idea. It does not work and causes more damage and eventually bubbles up and boils over anyway.

 

You might be right that I am using this as justification for staying. Maybe it does make me fell like less of a loser and idiot and fool for staying. Is that really a bad thing? In the past I had a variety of reasons for staying but the main one is that I love her, and that is the ONLY reason I am staying at this point.

Edited August 13, 2019 by TooLateNow

[Rayce]

Yes I am sorry I did get you mixed up with another thread... they seem so much similar like many other threads. I will take note to be more careful going forward. Thank you.

[SummerDreams]

In the past I had a variety of reasons for staying but the main one is that I love her, and that is the ONLY reason I am staying at this point.

 

 

Then why are you presenting the things she is doing as good and helpful? You just said you are only staying because you love her. Do you see the contradiction?

 

 

And since you were always going to stay, what was the point of this thread? I'm not trying to offend you, I am trying to make you think.

[DKT3]

Pretty hard to make someone reflect on a subject you dont understand.

 

I forgot my spouse cheated on me is a comment no one has made ever. You dont forget betrayal, you dont forget that your wife and the mother of your children walked out on you for another man.

 

His only mistake was allowing her to just walk back into his life without having done any work.

 

Infidelity isnt simple and something you just forget and move on. This thread is a perfect example of that. It's what he did decades ago and it didn't work so here is being advised by someone who doesn't get to repeat those decades.

[SummerDreams]

here is being advised by someone who doesn't get to repeat those decades.

 

 

In fact I advised him to get away for a month so he sees how he will be without her and he said he will be wondering what she does and how she is doing. He says he stays cause he loves her and he would stay even if she was doing no steps to make him feel better. Then what is the point to wonder what you should do if you have made your decision to stay either way?

 

 

In my opinion this is not love, this is some kind of obsession. You can't love someone who has hurt you that much and still is. And I think her selfishness is not over; if she was selfless, she would let him free to find a woman who he can truly trust, no matter what. They are both taking what they want from this relationship and it's their right, but we can't call this relationship a healthy one. . .

[TooLateNow]

Then why are you presenting the things she is doing as good and helpful? You just said you are only staying because you love her. Do you see the contradiction?

 

 

And since you were always going to stay, what was the point of this thread? I'm not trying to offend you, I am trying to make you think.

 

I was considering whether I should leave as I stated in my initial post. I had a variety of reasons to stay but wondered if it was an unhealthy choice. I was leaning towards staying but wanted some feedback from people who might be able to understand. I will probably stay but might change my mind in the future if there are further offenses or if she does not continue to show that she wants to be with me and cares about my well being.

 

Staying because I love her and being pleased that she is trying tobhelp me heal are not mutually exclusive. I absolutely do not see any contradiction.

 

You did not offend me. I like gathering information and seeing things from different perspectives. I may not totally agree with you and you may not totally agree with me, but I am never offended by civil discourse. You are very respectful in the way you present your views and I appreciate that. You have made me think and I appreciate you sharing your views. You did not have to comment at all but you took the time to do so and I believe you mean well, so I am glad that you shared. It is easier to say nothing or not even care, so i think you have done a good thing even though I do not agree on all points.

[TooLateNow]

In fact I advised him to get away for a month so he sees how he will be without her and he said he will be wondering what she does and how she is doing. He says he stays cause he loves her and he would stay even if she was doing no steps to make him feel better. Then what is the point to wonder what you should do if you have made your decision to stay either way?

 

 

In my opinion this is not love, this is some kind of obsession. You can't love someone who has hurt you that much and still is. And I think her selfishness is not over; if she was selfless, she would let him free to find a woman who he can truly trust, no matter what. They are both taking what they want from this relationship and it's their right, but we can't call this relationship a healthy one. . .

 

I never said I would stay even if she made no effort to help me. I said from the start I was trying to figure out if I should stay because I was afraid I was making yet another unhealthy choice.

 

A person definitely can love someone who has hurt them. I believe in every human relationship both parties will eventually do something that hurts the other. By nature we are all self-centered. We also have the capacity for forgiveness and reconciliation.

 

Our relationship has not been completely healthy but we are working on it.

 

Your implication taken to its logical conclusion is that only people who are perfect and remain in a perpetual state of perfection can have a healthy relationship. Not humanly possible because no one is perfect.

[DKT3]

 

In my opinion this is not love, this is some kind of obsession. You can't love someone who has hurt you that much and still is. And I think her selfishness is not over; if she was selfless, she would let him free to find a woman who he can truly trust, no matter what. They are both taking what they want from this relationship and it's their right, but we can't call this relationship a healthy one. . .

 

My wife and I are in our mid 40s and we have been together going on 30 years. When you have been with someone since your youth it creates a codependent dynamic that is unavoidable. It becomes hard to fathom how you can live without that person.

 

OP and his wife has very codependent relationship, that is why he stays. Codependency is stronger then love, it preys on our every weakness as our spouses have filled those gaps.

[SummerDreams]

My wife and I are in our mid 40s and we have been together going on 30 years. When you have been with someone since your youth it creates a codependent dynamic that is unavoidable. It becomes hard to fathom how you can live without that person.

 

OP and his wife has very codependent relationship, that is why he stays. Codependency is stronger then love, it preys on our every weakness as our spouses have filled those gaps.

 

 

Every coin has two sides. You are presenting the one side that is, we have grown up together, we don't know how to be without each other, so we ignore the bad stuff and we stay together. The other side could be my monther and father's story, they were together since my mom was 15, they were in a bad marriage, finally at 39 she decided to divorce him and for the last 20 years she is happier than ever. Was it a hard transition? Sure was. She didn't know how to live alone. She had some disastrous relationships. she had to start her life from zero. But she managed to find a good man and she is happy. I mean, it's easier to keep something mediocre due to the fear of change and other justifications we make, but it opens the door to happiness if we do do this change.

 

 

Codependency in my eyes is similar to obsession. This is what I said they have.

[DKT3]

Not even close to the same. One can be codependent and could care less what the other is doing outside of filling the void.

 

You can read hundreds of examples here on this web site. People cheating on and mistreating thier partners and also claiming that they love them and cant leave. That is codependency. Obsession is also easy to find around here, tons of OW/MW here obsessed with thier married man. Hanging on every word, ignoring his actions, putting thier lives on hold and discarding all things important (including children) for any little peice of the guy.

 

Codependency can be unhealthy, obsessive behavior is dysfunctional and destructive.

[TooLateNow]

Every coin has two sides. You are presenting the one side that is, we have grown up together, we don't know how to be without each other, so we ignore the bad stuff and we stay together. The other side could be my monther and father's story, they were together since my mom was 15, they were in a bad marriage, finally at 39 she decided to divorce him and for the last 20 years she is happier than ever. Was it a hard transition? Sure was. She didn't know how to live alone. She had some disastrous relationships. she had to start her life from zero. But she managed to find a good man and she is happy. I mean, it's easier to keep something mediocre due to the fear of change and other justifications we make, but it opens the door to happiness if we do do this change.

 

 

Codependency in my eyes is similar to obsession. This is what I said they have.

 

You seem to be implying that co-dependency/obsession and love are mutually exclusive. I think you are wrong. I believe someone who is co-dependent or obsessed with their partner can also love them. I know I love my wife even though I readily admit that there are aspects of our relationship that are at least co-dependent-like, although co-dependency is a controversial “diagnosis” and not all forms of co-dependency are bad at least according to professionals. At any rate, I grant you that our relationship has been pretty unhealthy for me at times and probably for her also. However, as stated, we are working on that and making some progress.

 

You also seem to be implying that I have been totally miserable for all or most of our relationship. That is simply incorrect and I never said that. In fact, I have said more than once on here that we have had a lot of good times and I have a lot of good memories as well. Some of the bad things and bad memories are awful, but that does not negate the good. Part of my problem is that I obsess about the negative and do not relish the positive. I need to work on this.

 

You also seem to be implying that no relationship with problems can be repaired and all relationships that go through problems should be scrapped. I believe you are incorrect there as well. There are several examples on this forum of people who have survived infidelity and are doing well, maybe not a fairy tale ending but a good and worthwhile relationship nonetheless.

 

I am sorry your mother had a rough start and happy things worked out for her. I am also sorry if your parents travails damaged you, which I am guessing it did. However, I think it is a little narrow minded and short sighted to believe that everyone must do things as your mother did to have a “healthy” relationship. Human beings are far more complex than that and what is best for one person or one couple is not always best for all.

Edited August 13, 2019 by TooLateNow

[TooLateNow]

We also talked about MC for us as a couple and IC for her. She is willing to do both. She offered to arrange it but I want to be involved in choosing the therapist for MC. Of course, she can choose her own therapist for IC and she will arrange that.

 

I was thinking that we should wait a little on the MC until she gets started on her IC and I get a little further in my IC because I thought if we can figure ourselves out a little better first it will make MC more productive. I am also a little concerned about the time commitment since I am extremely busy with work and more so than usual at the moment.

 

So, people who have done IC and MC, is it better to get a little further into IC before starting the MC? What has your experience been?

[TooLateNow]

 

“I readily admit that there are aspects of our relationship that are at least co-dependent-like, although co-dependency is a controversial “diagnosis” and not all forms of co-dependency are bad at least according to professionals. At any rate, I grant you that our relationship has been pretty unhealthy for me at times and probably for her also. However, as stated, we are working on that and making some progress.”

 

I was wrong about codependency not always being bad in some of its forms. I do not know why I said that. I think I was thinking more of the closely related concept of attachment theory, which in some forms is not negative. Anyway, the "diagnosis" IS controversial and I am not sure I accept that I am a "codependent" within the clinical definitions and applications. Regardless, the relationship had and has unhealthy aspects that we are trying to fix.

Edited August 13, 2019 by TooLateNow

[TooLateNow]

S2B

 

She offered to do that but I want to select that professional myself for our joint therapy as I am pretty picky about such things. I will discuss it with her and get her input before I make a final decision for that therapist. I will let her arrange the appointments.

 

She will be choosing her own therapist for IC. I think that is only fair. We will discuss it together though but I am likely to agree to whoever she chooses as it will be her therapy. She is already looking into that.

 

P.S. to all - I looked at the forum guidelines and realized I was not supposed to quoting long posts. Now that I know I will do this the right way, at least as best as I can figure it out.

[DKT3]

I believe he is in this situation because he has had very little control over the past 30 years. Had he had any control she would have answered his questions and he would be healed, happier with or without her.

[TooLateNow]

I am not sure what you think I control.

 

As I posted before, when she wants to work, she works. When she does not want to work, she does not work.

 

If she wants to go with me on my business trips she goes. If she does not want to go she stays home.

 

When we take vacations we decide together where we will go. Sometimes they start as my ideas and sometimes hers. When we do travel we try to do things that each of us like, such as shopping for her with me going along or something outdoorsy for me with her going along (but not always and I am OK with that).

 

I do not telll her where to go or what to do or who to be friend with. The fact that she tells me where she goes was HER decision not mine.

 

And the security cameras are for security. It was her idea to set me up as the administrator and she set up my phone so that I get notifications when there is activity at a door and that also HER idea.

 

As I have said, I do not want to be her father, I want to be her husband. That includes being aPARTNER not a boss.

 

As far as money and assets, everything is jointly owned and held and she has full access. Neither one of us make major purchases without discussing it and agreeing. In fact, we always decide together what we will do with our money and always have. When we were younger and did not have much money we sat down and made a budget together every month. Now we put my earnings into our joint checking account and then each month transfer most of it into investment accounts and we decide together how much to put where. I do pay all the bills out of the checking account but that is because I do not mind doing it and she does not want to do it. All of her earnings go straight into our joint savings account, although it really is not that much. We also agree together on how to use these funds but it is usually for trips or Christmas spending. For example, we went for a week to Hawaii last month and we used the savings for spending money on the trip. She feels good about the savings being used for fun things we do together and for buying gifts for others because it makes her feel like she is contributing, and she is.

 

The only exception on the spending is I often buy her things as a surprise or surprise her with a shopping trip. She is OK with that. One thing I do as far as control is to discourage from buying things for me as a surprise but she understands that unlike her I do not like surprises.

 

I do want to make the final decision on an MC but as I said we will discuss it and I always consider her ideas. But the last time we went to MC years ago it was a disaster and she picked the counselor. So that is why I am wanting more say this time and to make the call.

 

If there is something else you were thinking S2B please let me know. Maybe I miscommunication but of all things I am with my wife controlling is just not one of them.

Edited August 14, 2019 by TooLateNow

[SummerDreams]

 

I am sorry your mother had a rough start and happy things worked out for her. I am also sorry if your parents travails damaged you, which I am guessing it did. However, I think it is a little narrow minded and short sighted to believe that everyone must do things as your mother did to have a “healthy” relationship. Human beings are far more complex than that and what is best for one person or one couple is not always best for all.

 

 

Thank you for being so polite and for understanding. I do most of the times see things as black or white and I realise this is not right. As I said, you are a good and understanding father because this is how I feel you talked to me and I appreciate it.

[TooLateNow]

You are welcome. Thank you for posting and sharing your thoughts. I greatly appreciate all the posts. They all make me think and the reason I started this thread was to get as many perspectives and suggestions as possible.

[TooLateNow]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I did one night make my wife sit down and talk with me about her affairs until I felt we were done and I also made myself stick it out to the end of the discussion and not let her manipulate me with her tears.

 

Since then my wife and I had another serious discussion. In the past, she always got me to promise that I would never leave her. This time I told her there were now conditions on that. I told her that I would ABSOLUTELY leave her if she ever cheated again, lied to me again, tried to hide anything from me again, treated me in a way that was disrespectful again, or did anything that indicated that she was not doing the work to fix the damage that she caused to me and our marriage or just left it up to me to try to fix myself and left it to me to do most of the repair work in our marriage. I also told her that I was no longer going to let her manipulate me with sex.

 

She was pretty shocked. In fact, she was so surprised that she did not even try the waterworks to get me to change my mind or change the subject. She very contritely said she understood and then apologized profusely for over half an hour and in detail for the harm she caused me and our relationship. She did cry some during that part, but not to try to end the conversation, just because of how bad she felt for me and our relationship (not just herself this time).

 

This time, instead of feeling bad for making her feel bad, I felt good for standing up for myself and making my boundaries clear and letting her know that this is no longer a no consequences free ride for her. I was as nice as I possibly could be about it, but I was very firm also. I hope this was a good thing to do, but regardless it was very helpful for me and I feel good about it.

 

She is doing a lot of things, big and small, to try to fix what she broke. That helps and means a lot to me.

 

She also now clearly understands that she did a lot of damage to me and is very remorseful for what she did to me and not just for her own guilt and shame. This is helping me the most.

 

I do not mind that she feels bad for herself as well because of her guilt and shame, but at least now she understands that she damaged me as well and it is not just all about her own feelings and pain anymore.

 

She also told me that she feels bad that I will never completely and unconditionally trust her again and believe everything she says to me, but she understands why and does not blame me for that and realizes it is her own fault.

 

She also told me that she feels bad that I no longer basically worship her, but she also understands why I do not and that this is also her own fault.

 

She said is just glad I have stayed this long and still love her (although in a somewhat different and knocked off her pedestal kind of way) and truly feels she does not deserve my love or my staying.

 

I think we will be OK. I honestly feel like a new person. She has definitely become (or is at least acting like or temporarily) a totally different person as well. I know it is still not that long since all these positive changes have happened and I need to be cautious, but I choose to be cautiously optimistic and not cautiously pessimistic. My true nature is to be pessimistic and cynical, but this time I want to be and truly am more optimistic and hopeful.

 

I still have a lot of grief about losing my daughter, but it is getting better and at least I do not randomly burst into tears thinking about her anywhere near as often as before. I am also drinking a LOT less.

 

My psychologist has helped me a TON, and I am continuing that therapy.

 

My wife has also started IC (her decision and she chose the psychologist).

 

We are waiting for MC until we get our own heads straight, and both of our psychologists agree with that decision. They both think we may not need it if we can work out our own problems, but agree that it may be necessary at some point.

 

This forum has also been EXTREMELY helpful to me. It gave me a great place to vent, plus I got a lot of great suggestions and new perspectives. Although my therapy has helped a lot and brought about some significant changes, I do not think I would have ever stood up for myself, or at least not by this point in time (maybe eventually though),if it had not been for the amazing feedback I got here.

 

Thank you all!

[Buffer]

It is good to see that you have communicated to your spouse, your feeling, stance and set the boundaries that she has to honour so to maintain your affection and support.

Do you really feel she will maintain her acceptance and support for you and your healing?

 

I hope so good luck with your futures.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

OP, regarding your most recent post...GREAT JOB!!!!!

 

Now you are handling this like the BOSS YOU ARE! Congratulations! I'm so happy for you!

[mark clemson]

Good for you, OP!

 

I sometimes feel LTRs are a bit like a balloon or echo chamber. Doing something has an effect but then there is a delayed or less obvious effect as well (like the bulge when you squeeze the balloon, or the echo coming back). It will be interesting to see what the "echo" (longer term impact) of this is. It sounds like the changes so far are quite positive and so hopefully that will continue or even amplify over time.

[TooLateNow]

S2B, Buffer, Had Me Over a Barrell, and Mark Clemson,

 

 

Thank you for your positive and encouraging responses to my last post!

 

 

It means a lot to me because I assumed that I was going to get a bunch of people telling me I am foolish for feeling positive especially since it has not been that long since things have started going well for me in my reconciliation with my wife.

 

 

She keeps doing such good things to help me, like checking up with me, reassuring me, expressing her love, telling me how great she thinks I am, etc. She is also expressing true remorse and taking other actions.

 

 

Just this past weekend, we went on a kayaking trip that she booked for us. This is a big deal because she does not like the outdoors like I LOVE the outdoorsand she has only been in a kayak once before and was terrified the entire 15 minutes (she thinks it was like two hours but it was not). She did not do it as a total surprise but told me after she booked it but before the trip because she knows I hate surprises (but she LOVES surprises).

 

 

And this gave me a chance to also show some love to her. I was able to make it a shorter trip so she would not be as stressed and also made it a private tour trip and made sure we were the only people in the tour group (no small task on a holiday weekend) so that she would not have to feel pressured or like she was holding anyone else up on the trip.

 

 

And we both had a great time. It was very safe and low pressure for her, and I got to get out into the wild (and I do not care about how much water I cover; I like enjoying the sights and sounds taking my time anyway, especially now at 56).

 

 

So she did something on her own initiative for us to do something together that I LOVE (and she does not) and I got to make sure it was fun for both of us so that we both enjoyed it.

 

 

This is what I want - both of us to respect each other's feelings and do things together as a partnership where we both get something positive out of the experience.

 

 

I have learned through therapy and self-evaluation that the things I value the most are family and fun times with my wife.

 

 

Another example of what I think is AWESOME (to me):

 

 

Last night I had a bad dream - thoughts and images of betrayal. She noticed I seemed out of sorts when we got up. She asked and offered to talk if I wanted to talk. At the time, I did not want to talk about it so she let it go for then. I am learning some things from my therapist about being mindful of the negative thoughts but not letting them take control and deter me from things that are in line with what I truly value, and I felt if I just started blurting things out I would lose control and definitely not act in accordance with what I truly value.

 

 

Later she checked back with me, and I did have some questions from the bad dream, and she took the initiative to get me to 'fess up. (I still hold back more than I should but am getting better about it). She answered my questions even though they were tough and even though she believed I would not like the answers (but honestly I did not care that much about the answers; I just wanted to know, one way or the other).

 

 

At this point I am EXTREMELY HAPPY! I know I am probably overly exuberant at this point, which is soooooooo out of character for me as a typically very cynical person, but I like it! I like feeling good! It has been so long since I felt this way!!!! And I think it is mostly if not entirely because my wife and I are doing a lot of fun things together and spending great quality time together.

 

 

I have now realized through therapy and recent circumstances and great self-evaluation (and growing a pair some might say) that all I really needed was to know for sure from her own actions that she really did give a ****!!! I thought she didn't, mostly because I never really asked or pushed it, and I was WRONG!!! She did give a **** and really cared about me and felt awful, for me as well as herself. I wish I had confronted her sooner, like decades ago, and I would not have not lost so many years to despair and anxiety.

 

 

Oh well, the future looks bright!!! and do NOT try to tell me otherwise.

 

 

Peace to all.

 

 

P.S. to HadMeOverABarrell - your comment about it being "a jungle out there" was quite eye opening to me and very helpful in swaying me in the direction I am taking, which is making me very happy! Thank you eternally!!!

[spiritedaway2003]

Oh well, the future looks bright!!! and do NOT try to tell me otherwise.

 

Oh, I wouldn't tell you otherwise. I thought you were making the right progress all along! Change don't happen instantly, but you and your wife are both putting in the effort and that counts for something. And now it seems you're enjoying the fruits of that labor.

 

I'm truly happy for you and your progress. It's always great to read something positive on LS. Keep it up!