Waited too long?

[S2B]

This might work better if you quit controlling every aspect of living.

[DKT3]

I believe he is in this situation because he has had very little control over the past 30 years. Had he had any control she would have answered his questions and he would be healed, happier with or without her.

[TooLateNow]

I am not sure what you think I control.

 

As I posted before, when she wants to work, she works. When she does not want to work, she does not work.

 

If she wants to go with me on my business trips she goes. If she does not want to go she stays home.

 

When we take vacations we decide together where we will go. Sometimes they start as my ideas and sometimes hers. When we do travel we try to do things that each of us like, such as shopping for her with me going along or something outdoorsy for me with her going along (but not always and I am OK with that).

 

I do not telll her where to go or what to do or who to be friend with. The fact that she tells me where she goes was HER decision not mine.

 

And the security cameras are for security. It was her idea to set me up as the administrator and she set up my phone so that I get notifications when there is activity at a door and that also HER idea.

 

As I have said, I do not want to be her father, I want to be her husband. That includes being aPARTNER not a boss.

 

As far as money and assets, everything is jointly owned and held and she has full access. Neither one of us make major purchases without discussing it and agreeing. In fact, we always decide together what we will do with our money and always have. When we were younger and did not have much money we sat down and made a budget together every month. Now we put my earnings into our joint checking account and then each month transfer most of it into investment accounts and we decide together how much to put where. I do pay all the bills out of the checking account but that is because I do not mind doing it and she does not want to do it. All of her earnings go straight into our joint savings account, although it really is not that much. We also agree together on how to use these funds but it is usually for trips or Christmas spending. For example, we went for a week to Hawaii last month and we used the savings for spending money on the trip. She feels good about the savings being used for fun things we do together and for buying gifts for others because it makes her feel like she is contributing, and she is.

 

The only exception on the spending is I often buy her things as a surprise or surprise her with a shopping trip. She is OK with that. One thing I do as far as control is to discourage from buying things for me as a surprise but she understands that unlike her I do not like surprises.

 

I do want to make the final decision on an MC but as I said we will discuss it and I always consider her ideas. But the last time we went to MC years ago it was a disaster and she picked the counselor. So that is why I am wanting more say this time and to make the call.

 

If there is something else you were thinking S2B please let me know. Maybe I miscommunication but of all things I am with my wife controlling is just not one of them.

Edited August 14, 2019 by TooLateNow

[SummerDreams]

 

I am sorry your mother had a rough start and happy things worked out for her. I am also sorry if your parents travails damaged you, which I am guessing it did. However, I think it is a little narrow minded and short sighted to believe that everyone must do things as your mother did to have a “healthy” relationship. Human beings are far more complex than that and what is best for one person or one couple is not always best for all.

 

 

Thank you for being so polite and for understanding. I do most of the times see things as black or white and I realise this is not right. As I said, you are a good and understanding father because this is how I feel you talked to me and I appreciate it.

[TooLateNow]

You are welcome. Thank you for posting and sharing your thoughts. I greatly appreciate all the posts. They all make me think and the reason I started this thread was to get as many perspectives and suggestions as possible.

[S2B]

That MC needs to get at the root of your wife’s anger.

 

She’s compliant while you’re paying attention to her - even heavily monitoring her - but does otherwise whenyou aren’t watching.

 

Find out why she’s angry with you - workthrough that anger until it’s resilved.

 

I know we can assume... but she REALLY needs to get to a place of being forthcoming and honest with you.

[TooLateNow]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I did one night make my wife sit down and talk with me about her affairs until I felt we were done and I also made myself stick it out to the end of the discussion and not let her manipulate me with her tears.

 

Since then my wife and I had another serious discussion. In the past, she always got me to promise that I would never leave her. This time I told her there were now conditions on that. I told her that I would ABSOLUTELY leave her if she ever cheated again, lied to me again, tried to hide anything from me again, treated me in a way that was disrespectful again, or did anything that indicated that she was not doing the work to fix the damage that she caused to me and our marriage or just left it up to me to try to fix myself and left it to me to do most of the repair work in our marriage. I also told her that I was no longer going to let her manipulate me with sex.

 

She was pretty shocked. In fact, she was so surprised that she did not even try the waterworks to get me to change my mind or change the subject. She very contritely said she understood and then apologized profusely for over half an hour and in detail for the harm she caused me and our relationship. She did cry some during that part, but not to try to end the conversation, just because of how bad she felt for me and our relationship (not just herself this time).

 

This time, instead of feeling bad for making her feel bad, I felt good for standing up for myself and making my boundaries clear and letting her know that this is no longer a no consequences free ride for her. I was as nice as I possibly could be about it, but I was very firm also. I hope this was a good thing to do, but regardless it was very helpful for me and I feel good about it.

 

She is doing a lot of things, big and small, to try to fix what she broke. That helps and means a lot to me.

 

She also now clearly understands that she did a lot of damage to me and is very remorseful for what she did to me and not just for her own guilt and shame. This is helping me the most.

 

I do not mind that she feels bad for herself as well because of her guilt and shame, but at least now she understands that she damaged me as well and it is not just all about her own feelings and pain anymore.

 

She also told me that she feels bad that I will never completely and unconditionally trust her again and believe everything she says to me, but she understands why and does not blame me for that and realizes it is her own fault.

 

She also told me that she feels bad that I no longer basically worship her, but she also understands why I do not and that this is also her own fault.

 

She said is just glad I have stayed this long and still love her (although in a somewhat different and knocked off her pedestal kind of way) and truly feels she does not deserve my love or my staying.

 

I think we will be OK. I honestly feel like a new person. She has definitely become (or is at least acting like or temporarily) a totally different person as well. I know it is still not that long since all these positive changes have happened and I need to be cautious, but I choose to be cautiously optimistic and not cautiously pessimistic. My true nature is to be pessimistic and cynical, but this time I want to be and truly am more optimistic and hopeful.

 

I still have a lot of grief about losing my daughter, but it is getting better and at least I do not randomly burst into tears thinking about her anywhere near as often as before. I am also drinking a LOT less.

 

My psychologist has helped me a TON, and I am continuing that therapy.

 

My wife has also started IC (her decision and she chose the psychologist).

 

We are waiting for MC until we get our own heads straight, and both of our psychologists agree with that decision. They both think we may not need it if we can work out our own problems, but agree that it may be necessary at some point.

 

This forum has also been EXTREMELY helpful to me. It gave me a great place to vent, plus I got a lot of great suggestions and new perspectives. Although my therapy has helped a lot and brought about some significant changes, I do not think I would have ever stood up for myself, or at least not by this point in time (maybe eventually though),if it had not been for the amazing feedback I got here.

 

Thank you all!

[S2B]

That’s great news!

 

Keep on taking YOUR power back!

 

Have a voice and speak your truth every day!

 

Glad your wife understands her actions have consequences - and it’s only up to her to earn your trust back.

[Buffer]

It is good to see that you have communicated to your spouse, your feeling, stance and set the boundaries that she has to honour so to maintain your affection and support.

Do you really feel she will maintain her acceptance and support for you and your healing?

 

I hope so good luck with your futures.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

OP, regarding your most recent post...GREAT JOB!!!!!

 

Now you are handling this like the BOSS YOU ARE! Congratulations! I'm so happy for you!

[mark clemson]

Good for you, OP!

 

I sometimes feel LTRs are a bit like a balloon or echo chamber. Doing something has an effect but then there is a delayed or less obvious effect as well (like the bulge when you squeeze the balloon, or the echo coming back). It will be interesting to see what the "echo" (longer term impact) of this is. It sounds like the changes so far are quite positive and so hopefully that will continue or even amplify over time.

[TooLateNow]

S2B, Buffer, Had Me Over a Barrell, and Mark Clemson,

 

 

Thank you for your positive and encouraging responses to my last post!

 

 

It means a lot to me because I assumed that I was going to get a bunch of people telling me I am foolish for feeling positive especially since it has not been that long since things have started going well for me in my reconciliation with my wife.

 

 

She keeps doing such good things to help me, like checking up with me, reassuring me, expressing her love, telling me how great she thinks I am, etc. She is also expressing true remorse and taking other actions.

 

 

Just this past weekend, we went on a kayaking trip that she booked for us. This is a big deal because she does not like the outdoors like I LOVE the outdoorsand she has only been in a kayak once before and was terrified the entire 15 minutes (she thinks it was like two hours but it was not). She did not do it as a total surprise but told me after she booked it but before the trip because she knows I hate surprises (but she LOVES surprises).

 

 

And this gave me a chance to also show some love to her. I was able to make it a shorter trip so she would not be as stressed and also made it a private tour trip and made sure we were the only people in the tour group (no small task on a holiday weekend) so that she would not have to feel pressured or like she was holding anyone else up on the trip.

 

 

And we both had a great time. It was very safe and low pressure for her, and I got to get out into the wild (and I do not care about how much water I cover; I like enjoying the sights and sounds taking my time anyway, especially now at 56).

 

 

So she did something on her own initiative for us to do something together that I LOVE (and she does not) and I got to make sure it was fun for both of us so that we both enjoyed it.

 

 

This is what I want - both of us to respect each other's feelings and do things together as a partnership where we both get something positive out of the experience.

 

 

I have learned through therapy and self-evaluation that the things I value the most are family and fun times with my wife.

 

 

Another example of what I think is AWESOME (to me):

 

 

Last night I had a bad dream - thoughts and images of betrayal. She noticed I seemed out of sorts when we got up. She asked and offered to talk if I wanted to talk. At the time, I did not want to talk about it so she let it go for then. I am learning some things from my therapist about being mindful of the negative thoughts but not letting them take control and deter me from things that are in line with what I truly value, and I felt if I just started blurting things out I would lose control and definitely not act in accordance with what I truly value.

 

 

Later she checked back with me, and I did have some questions from the bad dream, and she took the initiative to get me to 'fess up. (I still hold back more than I should but am getting better about it). She answered my questions even though they were tough and even though she believed I would not like the answers (but honestly I did not care that much about the answers; I just wanted to know, one way or the other).

 

 

At this point I am EXTREMELY HAPPY! I know I am probably overly exuberant at this point, which is soooooooo out of character for me as a typically very cynical person, but I like it! I like feeling good! It has been so long since I felt this way!!!! And I think it is mostly if not entirely because my wife and I are doing a lot of fun things together and spending great quality time together.

 

 

I have now realized through therapy and recent circumstances and great self-evaluation (and growing a pair some might say) that all I really needed was to know for sure from her own actions that she really did give a ****!!! I thought she didn't, mostly because I never really asked or pushed it, and I was WRONG!!! She did give a **** and really cared about me and felt awful, for me as well as herself. I wish I had confronted her sooner, like decades ago, and I would not have not lost so many years to despair and anxiety.

 

 

Oh well, the future looks bright!!! and do NOT try to tell me otherwise.

 

 

Peace to all.

 

 

P.S. to HadMeOverABarrell - your comment about it being "a jungle out there" was quite eye opening to me and very helpful in swaying me in the direction I am taking, which is making me very happy! Thank you eternally!!!

[spiritedaway2003]

Oh well, the future looks bright!!! and do NOT try to tell me otherwise.

 

Oh, I wouldn't tell you otherwise. I thought you were making the right progress all along! Change don't happen instantly, but you and your wife are both putting in the effort and that counts for something. And now it seems you're enjoying the fruits of that labor.

 

I'm truly happy for you and your progress. It's always great to read something positive on LS. Keep it up!

[LovingKindness]

I have some experience with the subjects in this discussion and would like to draw attention to the following points.

 

Yourself -

 

- You were subjected to terrible pain as a young adolescent by your parents.

- In order to avoid the pain you turned to drugs that cause much negligence (alcohol) and lesser negligence (marijuana).

- The drugs that caused much negligence resulted in your mind readily turning to hatred and violence instead of love and compassion in your interaction with others.

- You have managed to get your life together by giving up that self destructive pathway, falling back on your intelligence, applying that intelligence productively, and also finding a spiritual pathway.

- You have fallen away from this pathway of late and resorted to drugs that cause negligence again due to the pain of losing your daughter.

- Likely you are still carrying the pain from childhood abuse, the pain of your Wife's infidelities and the pain of your losing your daughter.

 

Your Wife Point 1 -

 

- You say that your Wife was raped twice as a young adolescent.

- I have found that this is a pain that often dictates the entire life of a woman, for this pain never leaves them, it is there every day, throughout much of the day, except when they are indulging in sensual pleasures, like sex or ice cream.

- Often they have an extreme level of anxiety that will either prevent them from ever feeling safe, or conversely they will engage in dangerous behaviour in order to conquer their fear, but that doesnt work.

- I have noticed that sometimes women who have been raped have a much higher sex drive, for it is a momentary pleasure that makes their everlasting pain subside. You state that you do it every day and sometimes multiple times a day with your Wife.

- At the same time I have noticed that such women struggle to achieve orgasm and so experiment with ever more deviant sexual encounters to try and experience a feeling they can never attain.

- I have also noticed that some women who are raped can only ever orgasm with a man who is the complete opposite of their rapist, i.e. have proven unconditional love, you never leave them no matter what etc - a brutal standard almost no man can match, definitely not one who has much hatred, jealousy or vengeance within them, which you don't.

- I have also noticed that such women will test the men they are with in order to determine whether they are akin to a rapist or not, in various subtle or grosse ways.

 

Your Wife Point 2 -

 

- You say that your Wife was abandoned by her father.

- Beyond the obvious emotional issues and fear of abandonment this raises, I believe the presence of a father especially dictates the nature of a woman's day to day conduct during her younger years.

- If she had a good father who remained throughout her life, it is an additional mental barrier preventing her from engaging in the most wrongful conduct, due to the shame and fear of her fathers disapproval.

- I personally believe this is a significant factor in women deciding to engage in professional or clandestine sex work of the public or private nature, but that is hearsay.

- You obviously have taken the place of her father and that is why she begs you never to leave her like he did.

- This means she has likely recalibrated her shame and fear and replaced her father with you, but maybe not 30 years ago her when her wrongful conduct was at its maximum.

- Problem is her past transgessions have generated a sustained pain within you, thus making her feel sustained shame and fear, there is a way to deal with this outlined below.

 

Note - The above 2 issues are quite possibly the 2 worst things that could happen to a young girl, the only worse thing is if her father raped her.

 

I am sure if you two sit together and have a long chat about each of your respective pains, and try to link that to the conduct you each engaged in over the years, individually, with other people, and with respect to each other, you will learn many things about yourself and each other. Start with your own terrible conduct and link it back to the pain you suffered. If she is reluctant then let it be until she opens up, showing her this post may help. You have every right to be upset at what she did but you should spend some time to understand why exactly she did what she did. In my learned opinion, it is definitely not the case of some other cheaters who are just bored and want to get off, which I personally would never tolerate.

 

How you both may be able to fix things -

 

- It may beneficial for you and your Wife to find a way to train each of your minds in equanimity (keeping it centred).

- This means not allowing it to automatically pursue desire/greed (that which makes you want to eat food, have sex etc).

- And also not allowing it to automatically pursue aversion/hatred (that which makes you avoid the smell of dog faeces, not listen to awful music etc).

- Both of the above automatic mind states result in you falling into pain when you cannot achieve the objects of desire or avoid the objects of aversion that drives all existence.

- But if you can train the mind in equanimity you can pursue the desire or avoid the aversion with a level of control which means you are less likely to fall into pain if you fail. The following steps may help you achieve this.

- Atoning for past transgressions - maybe you can say you are sorry to those you have hurt, and maybe if someone has hurt you you can find the strength to forgive them. Easier said than done I know and I would not readily expect your Wife to do this. Do not expect anything in return in either case like them accepting your forgiveness or them thanking you for you forgiving them. As long as you mean it, it doesn't matter if they don't reciprocate.

- Helping others in pain through donating your time and money - volunteering in soup kitchens, mentoring groups of abused children using your story, giving money to some charity etc, whichever way you can apply your knowledge and skills. Helping others in pain often helps reduce our pain, almost as if we are all connected

- Doing some cognitive behavioural therapy - like painting or some other creative activity, might be worth asking your Wife what she enjoyed doing as a child before her mind was subjected to pain, and doing it together with her.

- Filling your mind with your spiritual doctrines and practices would also be a form of equanimity, e.g. projecting outwards love towards your Creator through praying etc.

- Basically doing anything that is not fuelled by inward material desire or aversion, and is steeped in outward love, compassion, giving.

- In addition I recommend practicing awareness of breathing - you do not need to convert away from a Middle Eastern religion to an Eastern one in order to do this.

- All you have to do is spend some time manually converting the contents of your mind from the pain of discursive thinking into the awareness of the body breathing, because when your mind is in pain its hard to think of helping others etc.

- Awareness is that mental faculty that exists when you are cutting carrots fast - you are not thinking of your problems, you are focused on the physical movement so you don't cut your finger off. Only instead of cutting your finger off, you are preventing your mind going into pain.

- The physical movement of breathing is discovered as follows - you go somewhere safe and secluded, you sit with your back straight so you don't eventually fall asleep, without thinking, you take a deep breath in, a deep breath out, a short breath in, a short breath out - repeat as much as you like whilst recording the physical process of your body breathing, chest expanding and contracting, air coming in and out (marijuana may help you record the process correctly in the beginning but later it becomes a hindrance).

- Then you experience your entire elemental body breathing in and out, you know the position of the bodily limbs, you know the subtle movements the body is making when it is breathing at all times, you know when you swallow, you know when your leg twitches etc.

- Then you calm all the subtle physical movements of the elemental body including the process of breathing until everything becomes more faint and the body becomes relaxed and unperturbed by outside influences.

- You do this as long as you can, every time your mind is distracted by pleasure or pain, you take the deep breaths in and out and you repeat the above.

- Only active knowledge of the physical movement of breathing should exist in your mind, if anything else enters your mind your mind is off centre, fuelled by desire or aversion. You don't need to know specifics, like cool air in, warm air out, just what is generally happening to your body.

- Always remember for the moments your mind is filled with just the movement of the elemental body breathing you are free of your pain in a controlled way, not an out of control way like engaging in drugs and sex.

- Of course it will return when you return to day to day life, but over time you will gain the skill to control your mind and keep it centred in a way that you can shut down the negative thinking quickly.

- You do not need to be seated and secluded to do this, you can know the general movements of the body at any moment throughout the day and by doing so you shift the mind from pain to equanimity.

- Also it is better to do this at whatever time of the day you are generally the most calm, some are calm before the day begins because they are stressed afterwards, others are calm after the day ends because they are stressed at the beginning.

- You may be able to transform this form of awareness into some other equanimous process relevant to your own spiritual pathway, like sustained projecting outwards love to your Creator and everything Created, I am not sure of your specific practices but I am sure you can figure out a way to do this.

 

I hope this helps as you seem like a man that does not want to leave your Wife, you just want to find a way to get over her past transgressions, and you you want your Wife to be happy and never do those things again. So perhaps formulating a set plan and following your spiritual pathway in a way that addresses each of your root pains can help you do this.

 

One critical thing - if you do decide to take these steps I recommend you never ever under any circumstances bring up her past transgressions again. If she does transgress which I do not think she will given her maturity then you will need to deal with it without bringing up the past. This means you either leave and find happiness elsewhere but continue to be friends just in case she self destructs, but don't blame yourself if she does. Or you both revert to a set plan, a set pathway, based on your spiritual doctrines, in order to improve yourselves by purifying your minds and helping others. Also I am sure you will agree that it is unwise to ever use the root pain she suffered against her, oh you were raped and so you are like this etc. Note that she may test you on this by using your root pain against you in the extreme heat of an argument, but you should have control of your mind in that circumstance in the manner outlined above.

 

One final note - We are men and we love the sensual delight of the physical orgasm, but just remember that it takes the mind way off centre generally, so reducing the frequency and the intensity (any deviant nature) gradually over time whilst doing all of the above will help both of you gain control of your minds, assuming she is fully informed and agreeable because you don't want her to think you are unattracted to her.

 

Your post struck a chord with me - because I am you at the beginning of your relationship, although I myself was not abused I had depression for 22 years, your Wife mirrors my GF in many ways, though I am yet to be cheated on. EDIT: Note the above deductions are based on my interactions with numerous abused women and not just one.

 

Best of luck my friend, I probably won't be able to check back because I am writing a thesis and have much general research yet to do but hopefully this advice helps you and whoever else comes across it, if all else fails.

Edited September 5, 2019 by LovingKindness

[HadMeOverABarrel]

S2B, Buffer, Had Me Over a Barrell, and Mark Clemson,

 

 

P.S. to HadMeOverABarrell - your comment about it being "a jungle out there" was quite eye opening to me and very helpful in swaying me in the direction I am taking, which is making me very happy! Thank you eternally!!!

 

Hey OP. Sorry I've just read this now. I've been off in the jungle. So happy for you! Wishing you many more blessings to come and abundant peace. You've taken control of your destiny, and the world is your oyster.

 

P.S. your p.s. was very kind and brightened my day. Thanks!

Edited September 17, 2019 by HadMeOverABarrel

[TooLateNow]

Thank you and you are welcome!

You are a very kind and wise person with very well balanced views.

Things are getting better and better for my wife and I.

I am to the point that I do trust her now, which is making me feel so much better.

I also believe that she really does love me now and has for longer than I gave her credit for. This is just an amazing feeling.

I hope your forays in the jungle fare well for you.

As far as I am concerned as a person you helped very much with your compassion and concern for me as a total stranger, you deserve all the best. Anyone would be very lucky to have a person like you in their life!!!

[Nikzy006]

I have read all your posts and i think she does not love you... i think your wife had her fun all this years and now she wants to live a normal and faithful life with you ... she always manipulated you and she always knew you were her plan b or second fiddle... And think about all those years of betrayal... you could have Been with someone who would have loved and respected you rather than with someone who always cheated and disrespected you.... i don't know if you need any actual advice in this forum as you have decided to be with your wife ... but i think you should and you deserve to live a wonderful life but i don't think it should be your wife she does not deserve you... sometimes we need to be selfish for our happiness but you chose be selfless...

[big dog]

My wife and I have been together since 1980 when we met in our senior year of high school. We moved in together right after we graduated and then got married a little less than a year later in 1982.

 

During our relationship she has had sex with three other men. The first was a one night stand before we got married but while we were living together. The second was a more serious affair during that same time period. The third was another affair that started at about the eight year mark in our marriage. That affair ended in 1992 and frankly was at least partly my fault. I truly believe that was the end of all of her cheating and that at this point I know everything except what she “cannot remember because it was so long ago.” I knew about the last affair at the time it was happening but did not know about the first two until about twenty or so years after the fact.

 

When we met, I was living on my own and had been for a couple of years even though I was still in high school. My parents kicked me out of the family home because of my extremely wild behavior, which included drinking, drugs, drug dealing, and violence. I do not really blame them for kicking me out because I was completely out of control at that point in my life. I also did not mind because I had suffered a lot of physical abuse from both of my parents when I was younger that did not end until I physically stood up for myself as a young teenager and they realized they could no longer get away with the abuse. When I say physical abuse, I do not mean a lot of spankings, I mean ER visits, hospital admissions, broken bones, cigarette burns, etc. There were also eight of us living in a two bedroom house with an attic for a shared kids bedroom, so being on my own and having some space was also nice.

 

My wife had also suffered physical abuse from her mother and had been abandoned by her father. She was also raped twice as a tween/teen before I met her.

 

Suffice it to say we were both very damaged young people when we met. She was a little wild too at that point, but nothing like I was and for the most part she just went along with me for the ride on my crazy train. I was full of rage at that time against basically the whole world, and I felt like it was me and her against the world. I had never really known love before I met her, and I totally idolized her and put her on a pretty high pedestal.

 

When we were living together but before we were married, I did suspect some cheating on her part. I confronted her a few times, but she always denied it. She would get very emotional and cry and make me feel terrible for even suggesting it. I even felt like I was just crazy and jealous and needed to get over myself. One time she had even packed a bag and left our apartment while I was at work. When I got home, she was gone and her stuff was gone and there was not even a note. I was distraught and frantic and was doing everything I could to try to find her, but she eventually just came back later that night. I asked if there was someone else, but she said she had left because of my wild ways but changed her mind and came back because she loved me. I believed her at the time.

 

I asked her to marry me not long after that and she accepted. She did not tell me about the other two guys she had been with while we were living together, and I did not know about that when we got married.

 

A few years later we had our first child. This totally changed me and I gave up most of my wildest ways, but I did still drink a little and use some drugs, but I stopped dealing drugs and getting into fights. Then we had another child about a year and a half later and then a third child about seven years after that. By that time I had completely quit drinking and using drugs and had become a very respectable adult.

 

At about the eight year mark in our marriage, I noticed my wife seemed very infatuated with a co-worker. We had over the years talked about a threesome but it was mostly pillow talk that aroused both of us. She had always said that it was just a fun fantasy and needed to stay that way, but now she suggested that we should do it for real with this guy. I did not think she would really do it so I played along. She then told me that she wanted to have sex with him first to make sure it would not be awkward and to get him into the idea. I reluctantly agreed still thinking she would not really go through with it – BIG MISTAKE. She did have sex with him. She came home and gave me all the details. It did turn me on for some reason, and then we had pretty passionate sex.

 

Up to that point in our marriage, she and I had very regular sex, usually every day and sometimes multiple times a day. It had always been like that from the very beginning.

 

She then asked if she could have sex with him again so she could ask him about the threesome and to make sure the sex would be good for all of us. For some reason she had not asked him about the threesome the first time. I again reluctantly agreed – ANOTHER BIG MISTAKE. Again, she told me all the details, we both got very aroused, and we again had very passionate and amazing sex. She did not mention the threesome, so I asked her about it. She matter-of-factly said that he said he was not interested in that.

 

She then told me that she did not want to have a threesome anymore and had broken it off with him. That was a lie. She continued to sleep with him behind my back.

 

Then, for the first time in our relationship we started to have sex less frequently. She even gave me the “I love you but I am not in love with you anymore” routine. One day during this time period I kissed her and she pushed me away, spit on the floor, and looked and acted totally disgusted. That is an image I have never forgotten and probably never will. I was devastated.

 

I should also say that she was upset with me during this time because I had moved us to a state much farther from her family due to being accepted into a prestigious university for my doctoral studies. Although I was a wild youth, I was always an excellent student, and after I got my life on track did further my education, which has served us extremely well. Her family had always created huge problems for us from the very start, but that story would be a very long story all on its own.

 

Anyway, I then found out that she was still sleeping with him and got furious. She said she was breaking it off at that point, but that was another lie. I caught her a second time and told her I was done with her. She cried and begged and apologized and convinced me to stay. She told me she really did love me and was in love with me and only me. She threatened to kill herself and asked me to kill her (I have NEVER laid a hand on her in any type of violent way). She made me promise that I would never leave her.

 

Shortly after this I got my doctorate and an excellent well-paying position with a very big time company.

 

We also started going to church. This totally changed both of us for the better. The little bit of wildness that was left in me was gone - no more drinking or drugs or any type of crazy behavior. It also helped me to get over the hurt, anger, resentment, and bitterness that had plagued me for so many years as a result of my parents’ abuse and a lot of the guilt and shame I felt for some pretty terrible things I had done during my wild drug dealing days.

 

Our sex life also got back to normal. To this day, we still have sex pretty much every day and sometimes multiple times a day.

 

A few years later we moved far from that state for a variety of reasons, including wanting to get away from the bad memories haunting me from her affair. I was able to get another high paying job, but this time with a much smaller company.

 

After we moved and at about the twenty (or so) year mark in our marriage, she told me she needed to talk with me about something serious. She told me God had convicted her that she had to tell me about some secrets she had been keeping from me. She told me that the affair with the guy I knew about was much worse, that it had gone on much longer than I had known, that she had slept with many times more than she had admitted, that she had slept with him in our home in our bed with our young children sleeping in their room right across the hallway, and some other pretty terrible things. She also now for the first time told me about the two guys she slept with when we were living together. The ONS was with a visiting district manager at her work. The more serious affair was with one of her managers from work at her location. She admitted that the night she had packed up and left she had gone to run away with him. However, when she told him she was leaving me for him, he told her that their relationship “was not like that,” and he dumped her on the spot. Apparently, she had just been a cheap piece of ass to him. That is why she came back to me.

 

To make matters worse, she was leaving to go visit our oldest daughter at college across the country. I could not go because of business. She dumped this information on me and then had to leave right away to catch her flight. She also said she never wanted to talk about it again because she felt too much guilt and shame. I was shocked but had no chance to say anything. During the week that she was gone visiting my daughter, I felt like I was going insane. I was devastated all over again.

 

When she got back I told her it was extremely unfair for her to dump that on me and then not allow me to even say anything. She agreed, and we talked a long time. I asked many questions, and she answered them all, at least as best as she could (I guess). She then made me promise that I would never bring it up again. I stupidly agreed. She also made me again swear I would never leave her, and I also agreed to that again.

 

As you may guess, it was impossible to never bring it up again and never have and ask questions ever again, but I did try my best. In the approximately twenty years since these terrible and devastating revelations, I have brought it back up and asked some additional questions probably less than a dozen times. Whenever I have, she gets very emotional and cries because of her guilt and shame and that makes me feel terrible. Mostly I have just for all these years kept it to myself but have had bouts of moodiness because of it.

 

This may have gone on like this forever but five years ago tragedy struck our family. Our youngest daughter died at the age of 21. My wife and I were and still are completely devastated by this. We have supported each other with our grief very well and I am sure always will no matter what. I went to a psychologist about a year after my daughter died to get some help dealing with my grief. I did not discuss the affairs because I had promised I would never tell anyone, partly for my wife but also largely because it is very embarrassing for me. Anyway, the doctor helped me to deeply analyze my life and realize that I was in two very toxic work situations. One was my primary full time position. The other was a part time position that I had mainly for fun with my church. In my primary job, I was bringing in huge amounts of income to the business and was very much unappreciated and treated pretty poorly. I quit both and started my own business. It has been hugely successful and I lament that I had not done this years earlier as many people had been counseling me to do for many years. I also felt much better emotionally and mentally and now have more time for myself and my family, which also now includes several grandchildren.

 

That doctor helped me quite a bit with my life issues and somewhat with my grief. But after several months she retired and I did not look for another doctor at that time. I was and still am very depressed over the death of my daughter, and after I stopped seeing that doctor, my wife and I both started to drink again and also use marijuana tincture. I also pretty much left the church but not entirely at this point.

 

So about six months ago I asked my wife a question about the past affairs. She blew up and claimed that at this point she was now the “victim” because I could not “get over it” and “keep bringing it up.” I got angry and we had a big argument which ended the usual way, her crying and me feeling terrible about making her upset.

 

Then I started thinking about it and wondered if she was right. I wrote her a long letter (I knew she could not handle a discussion about it) pouring my heart out about all of the pain I had suffered, mostly silently, for all these years. I also shared an article I had found about the high cost a betrayed spouse pays when choosing to stay with a cheater. I wrote that maybe she deserved better, maybe she deserved someone who could fully trust her and not be so damaged. I said that if she wanted to divorce I would go along with that and make it as easy as possible for her and I would still take care of her financially and would still never tell anyone about her affairs. I also did a timeline of our relationship from my perspective, and she did agree it was accurate except for a couple of points.

 

She then was overwhelmed with grief. In the past it had always been about her guilt and her shame, but now for the first time she felt remorse for what she had put me through and what she had done to me as a man and as a person and as someone who had always loved her and taken care of her no matter what. She told me she did not want to leave me. She said she would do anything to help me heal and would now talk with me whenever I needed to talk about anything I needed to talk about.

 

I also realized that trying to deal with this all by myself all these years was a terrible decision on my part. I found another psychologist. I have been seeing this doctor for the past several months to deal with these affairs and the grief over losing my daughter and other issues that come up of course. I am now seeing things from a totally new perspective. I no longer feel like a worthless loser and less than a real man for putting up with all I have put up with. I am regaining some of my lost self-esteem and confidence.

 

Part of reanalyzing my life has caused me to reevaluate my relationship with my wife. I see now that I was pretty much cheated out of my opportunity to choose for myself if I was willing to marry a cheater and also deprived of the opportunity to have a chance to deal with my emotions in an open and healthy way.

 

I am now wondering if I should get out of this relationship for my own well-being.

 

However, I feel like maybe that is unfair at this point so far down the road. Although I still love my wife and would help her as best I can, she would be pretty lost without me. Over the years I have treated her, in her words, “like a princess.” If she wanted something, I got it for her. If she needed care and support, I gave it to her. I have been very successful and have been able to take her all over the world for vacations and shopping and fun. She says I have given her a life she never dreamt she could have ever had. When she wanted to stay at home, I totally supported her. If she wanted to work, I helped her find work, but actually she has only had one full time job in her entire life and that lasted less than a year, and she has mostly not worked at all. She now helps me at my office a couple hours a week, but that is for her because she wants to do it and I really do not need her help and in fact secretly have to redo a lot of the work she does for me.

 

Also, I still love her, although I no longer worship her in my heart as I used to do and sadly do not think I will ever completely trust her again. Also, my kids would be very hurt if we separated or divorced. And even though I have suffered a lot of hurt over the years, we have also had a lot of great times together and have spent our entire adult lives together. I also do not want to be alone. I am pretty certain I could find another woman because I am successful, am well off financially, and exercise every day and am in great physical shape, but I never want to be with any other woman no matter what happens. Finally, I did promise not to leave her and I take my promises very seriously.

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Your life & marriage together has been built on lies & deception. And you've allowed it to happen by telling your own heart that it'll be OK. But it's obvious that it never was nor will be what it should've been. It's obvious as well that your kids are grown You really need to make a decision as your life's moving along quickly and there's not that much time left to search for trust & truth in a relationship...if you even want one. If you want to live under these circumstances, then so be it. You're a tougher guy than I could be.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Thank you and you are welcome!

You are a very kind and wise person with very well balanced views.

Things are getting better and better for my wife and I.

I am to the point that I do trust her now, which is making me feel so much better.

I also believe that she really does love me now and has for longer than I gave her credit for. This is just an amazing feeling.

I hope your forays in the jungle fare well for you.

As far as I am concerned as a person you helped very much with your compassion and concern for me as a total stranger, you deserve all the best. Anyone would be very lucky to have a person like you in their life!!!

 

Thanks so much, OP. Lately the jungle hasn't been too kind. I flew to NYC to meet someone I'd been talking to for over a year off and on. Turned out to be an extremely clever catfish. I found myself a hotel near airport and booked a return flight for the next day. Pretty disgusting that he even pretended to be looking for me at the airport for over an hour after my arrival.

 

Hopefully all my good karma will begin paying off. I'm sharpening my machete in the meantime. Be well!

[merrmeade]

Sorry but it's really late for me. I've read the beginning and end of your thread and am impressed with the work you've done on yourself.

 

I just have one question and apologize if it's in the middle of the thread —

Is your wife also seeing a therapist, and, if not, why not? Why is it that it's all about coming to terms with your pain and betrayal (which IS absolutely essential for you) but not about her issues that allowed her to cheat and lie to you?

 

It also seems to me that her histrionics are quite convenient and she knows very well how to ignite your VERY compassionate soul. I only say this because I realised after YEARS that my husband really did not deserve my understanding and compassion for his Great Shame. In fact, I deserved much more than I demanded for myself, and I think you do, too.

 

I mean, I would not wish to derail your reconciliation for anything. It's very inspiring, and your wife is clearly working at being unselfish and giving. But is she also working at owning up to all the ways she manipulated you? Can she honestly see and admit that she was good at avoiding consequences by using half-truths and her oh so painful guilt and shame to get you where she needed you to be.

 

It's one thing to admit to the affairs, but another entirely to face all the ways she corrupted her entire character as she knowingly controlled and manipulated your knowledge of the truth. And she did this over and over and over.

 

Has she faced those demons? I mean, frankly it leaves me a little cold to read your kindness in reporting her difficulty in accepting that you cannot ever trust her completely again and all the rest. That is just really not enough in my opinion.

 

I mean, it's a hell of a lot more than I settled for but that's how I know. I think about this issue of character, vulnerability and authenticity as it affects relationships all day every day, and frankly even ex-cheaters cannot really afford to think about it. I don't think anyone could survive the honesty required for a cheater to admit what s/he has done. They cannot afford to admit the their spouses' innocence and faithfulness even though their spouses don't hold it over their heads or point it out. If they did, they would not be able to get up for the pain of remorse. But do you see that happening?

 

If it did and I'm wrong, I apologize and this can be ignored.

[TooLateNow]

M

 

Thank you for your kind words.

 

She is seeing a therapist now. I insisted and she reluctantly agreed. She was reluctant not because of dealing with the affairs but because she was afraid the therapist would want to discuss her truly horrible childhood trauma that she buries and does not want to face. Of course, that is one thing the therapist is exploring, and it is hard for her but I believe it will help my wife a lot.

 

Her remorse and concern for my healing are growing even more. She told me she did not deserve me and believed that just having to see her must be very painful for me and offered to leave and tell our kids what she had done so no one would blame me. She said she did not want anything except maybe her car if that was OK with me. She apologized over and over.

 

I asked her if she wanted to leave and she said she did not but wanted me to be able to move on and find someone who would treat me right and make me happy.

 

I told her I did not want her to leave because I still love her, so she is staying, which is definitely what I want. I also said that I do not want her to tell our kids or anyone else. That is partly because I do not want her to be hurt, partly because I do not want my kids to be hurt, but mostly because I would be embarrassed. Stupid male pride and ego I guess. She has agreed. At this point she feels she needs to be punished, but I do not want that. I want the suffering to end for both of us and for us to be happy together.

 

She is doing a lot of loving things for me. I am rapidly healing, which is making me want to try even harder myself, which makes us both feel good. It is not always easy but it really feels like we have started all over again with a “beginning of a love story” kind of almost giddy happiness. I know that sounds sappy and hard to believe, but it is true. I have never felt this good in my entire life. I hope it lasts to the end.

 

Best wishes to you.

[S2B]

Are you seeing a therapist as well?

[TooLateNow]

Are you seeing a therapist as well?

 

Yes I am still going

[S2B]

Why do you keep taking away her consequences?

 

She’s not likely to grow and become a better person deep down while you take away her painful truth of who she is!

 

She’s only likely to cheat again at the rate you’re approaching this.

 

Stop making it so easy for her.

[TooLateNow]

Why do you keep taking away her consequences?

 

She’s not likely to grow and become a better person deep down while you take away her painful truth of who she is!

 

She’s only likely to cheat again at the rate you’re approaching this.

 

Stop making it so easy for her.

 

You have given me some good advice that has definitely helped me when I followed it. The same is true about others on here who gave me advice.

 

It helped get me to where I am, which is where I want to be.

 

However, I think what you are suggesting now would not further my goals for my relationship with my wife and would be counter to what I value.

 

She has already grown and become a better person. I do not believe she is likely to ever cheat again. Indeed, she has not cheated on me for over 20 years (although she did lie and deceive me). She has also become very broken over what she did to me.

 

She knows the painful truth of who she is, that is, a person who lied and cheated and deceived the one man who truly loved and worshipped her no matter what and in the process destroyed him. She seems to really hate herself.

 

That is not what I want. I do not want her to be in pain. I want both of us to be happy together, and we are getting there.

 

We are at a point where we can discuss the affairs and my pain whenever I want and she will fully participate. But I feel like now I am good. I have said all I needed to say and she has answered all of my questions and I am satisfied that she gets it.

 

I want to move on. I want us to experience joy. I do not want her to be in pain or suffer or be under my thumb or have eternal consequences.

 

I also want her to know who else she is besides the negative things listed above. She is also the love of my life, the mother of my kids, my friend and lover for my entire adult life, and the woman I want to spend my remaining years with.

 

I know some may find this disappointing while others will think it is awesome. Some may think I am moving too fast while others may wonder what took me so long.

 

The bottom line is I listened to advice from different perspectives and have done what seems best for me to me. I have to decide what works for me. I think I have. It may not work out perfectly, but I will be true to myself and pursue the things that I value in a way I can live with.