The "let's be friends" talk in affairs vs relationships

[GreenTeaBoba]

Hi everyone! I've been a lurker here for almost a year now, since LS has been an invaluable source of comfort and advice in the chaos of my own affair... and I want your thoughts on friendships with former affair partners.

 

To keep it brief: I'm a MW who had a yearlong affair with a MM I work with, and that he ended 10 days ago. We've been friends and colleagues for several years, and overlapping low points in both of our marriages brought us into an EA that developed into a PA/EA. He's 15 years older than I am (35 and 50) and he's senior to me but different departments (we're in medicine). His kids are in high school; I have a 6 year old. We never meant for it to get as deep and attached as it did... but it did. We work together, do hobbies together, travel together for work and pleasure, and his parents know about me as they've been aware that his marriage has been very distant and rocky for the past 10 years (of a 20 year marriage). We've kept it very lowkey at work because everyone knew us as colleagues and friends before an affair developed, though a couple close friends at work know.

 

It's worth pointing out that before the affair started, xMM and his W had been bringing up separation/divorce on both sides, voluntarily, for a year or two. They've tried counseling and vacations, recommitment, to improve their marriage, but both have acknowledged that none have thus far worked. There've been a couple attempted moveouts a few years ago, and the W told a mutual friend of ours that xMM hadn'tsaid he loved her in five years. So when D-day happened... it wasn't some huge blowout. His W had known about me, asked xMM to try one last time (without confrontation/crying, just acknowledging that things were bad enough for an affair to happen), and he declined and suggested a trial separation. This was in early July. Fast forward two weeks when she gets back from visiting family with the kids (he had to stay for work) and immediately served him divorce papers because she didn't want to try a separation first.

 

Fine. xMM is shellshocked but decides it's a relief because he wanted to end his marriage for a long time but was too afraid to pull the trigger. He retained an attorney, told quite a few of our friends and his family that they were divorcing, kept me in the loop with lawyer meetings and house hunting in hits kid's school district. I want to note that all this time, we NEVER discussed leaving for one another or with goals of getting married. I wasn't ready to end my own marriage. My H is asexual and aware of my lover, and xMM was was my first EMR. But, we enjoyed being lovers and best friends and did/do love one another deeply.

 

The post D-day bomb happened two weeks after W served him papers. In the middle of meetings about alimony and child support and discussing how to sell the house, xMM went bonkers. Had panic attacks so intense that our colleague put him on sedatives. xMM also became INSANELY clingy, possessive and needy with me, asking daily if I loved him and wanting reassurance that I would be there for him through his divorce. He would call 4-6 times a day (though we used to talk twice a day and text 50-100 times daily for a year). 10 days ago he was insisting on meeting me in one of our offices, and proceeded to dump me by sobbing hysterically that he was an awful man and had to give his marriage one last try so he didn't traumatize his kids. He told me he needed space and this was goodbye and immediately unfriended/removed me from every single social media platform we had. Deleted shared calendars. Turned off his map location (we location shared as friends for a year before any affair started, along with several other friends). I was devastated and blindsided but told him I hoped he figured his life out and went into immediate NC.

 

Last night he texted me a hello, and tried to push a conversation about work, my favorite sports team, how I was doing, etc. He also used the nickname that only he and my immediate family use for me but never used at work during our affair. I was kind but brief and ended the conversation quickly. Today he reached out on Facebook Messenger (despite us not being friends) to talk more, and I became irritated at these mixed signals -- asking for space and then forcing an end to my NC -- and stormed across the hospital to demand an explanation for his nonsense.

 

He was very sad and humble, and admitted that he really isn't looking to restart an affair, but the thought of losing me entirely, forever, was killing him and he wanted to be friends. Not EA-level, text-a-hundred-times-a-day friends, but to be on social media and text and chat casually as we do with the others in our social circle.

 

So... my question is: is this an absolutely bat**** crazy awful idea? I don't think he has ulterior motives -- I am his only EMR in his very long marriage and the guilt did hit us periodically through our affair. But what if he's trying to keep me on the back burner? Or is he just anxiously attached to me and the NC triggered that? Every single affair recovery guide I've read says that the WS MUST cut all ties to the AP for the BS sake. On top of that, he mentioned that texting and calling normally on our phones would upset his W and that we should use an app like WhatsApp (which we both use for our overseas trips anyway). That felt a little sneaky.

 

I don't know what to do. I am going to miss the affair but I understand his fears and decision. I'm able to refrain from the sexual aspect of it however, but my emotions are deep for him. I also want him to be happy and truly want them to have a real chance at R but he doesn't seem to think keeping me as a friend will hurt that chance. On top of that, when his W brought up the affair, he didn't express remorse or guilt for cheating on her... he only panicked and turned to beg for another chance once the reality of how big and messy and expensive a D was going to be for him. So I'm not sure how much of his R attempt is for her vs keeping the status quo. And my sticking around as a friend will make that much harder...

 

This wasn't as brief as I thought it would be, but thanks for listening. Please give me advice! I'm wracked with guilt on all fronts and dealing with losing my best friend and hurting his W over this affair.

Edited August 14, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[DKT3]

Always the same script. Horrible man, he wants out, wife knows then boom it over and he has decided to work on his marriage. Secondly, I swear 90% of the women here having affairs are married to asexual men, statistically speaking it's not possible.

 

Ok, I believe what you think is happening isn't what's actually happening. If I were a betting man, I would bet you've been misled and the blinders wont allow you to see.

 

Divorce divorce divorce, then served and I need to work on my marriage...does that sound logical to you? Forget what he is saying, just focus on his actions are they those of a man who wants a divorce?

 

Lastly, why all this talk about him divorcing, aren't you married?

[GreenTeaBoba]

Unfortunately, my H is truly asexual due to health conditions. We have a good marriage and he has been supportive and not jealous at the suggestion of having a monogamous/safe/NSA sex partner. He did express doubt that a married colleague was a good choice for that, even if said colleague had been in a monogamous marriage for decades.

 

I agree that it follows a pattern, although in some cases I've seen on LS (including mine) the 180 run back to the BW isn't immediately after serving. Some men do go pretty far in the D process, and even get their own places. So they likely *think* that's what they want but I'm sure in most cases are not ready and/or are too scared to actually go through with D.

 

xMM talked frequently of wanting to divorce during our affair, initially he planned for when his kids graduated but during rough times with his W he became despondent and questioned if they could live together even until then. She's a lovely woman and I don't blame her at all. They do not get along and have very different goals and interests, but again... that's a reason to divorce and find someone who makes you happy. Not have an affair. Lastly... D would mean he could have his own place for us to spend time together as my marriage is, indeed, an open one.

Edited August 14, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[GreenTeaBoba]

So the question I have is... do I start a hard NC despite our close work and social ties, or do you think a casual friendship is possible if he's genuinely interested in R and I'm quite able to not resume a PA (I'm less sure about an EA)?

Edited August 14, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote removed

[mark clemson]

... he really isn't looking to restart an affair, but the thought of losing me entirely, forever, was killing him and he wanted to be friends. Not EA-level, text-a-hundred-times-a-day friends, but to be on social media and text and chat casually as we do with the others in our social circle.

 

So... my question is: is this an absolutely bat**** crazy awful idea?

 

Almost certainly yes. Particularly in a work context.

 

 

I also want him to be happy and truly want them to have a real chance at R but he doesn't seem to think keeping me as a friend will hurt that chance.

 

 

That would be denial on his part. He'll need to work on that.

 

On top of that, when his W brought up the affair, he didn't express remorse or guilt for cheating on her... he only panicked and turned to beg for another chance once the reality of how big and messy and expensive a D was going to be for him. So I'm not sure how much of his R attempt is for her vs keeping the status quo. And my sticking around as a friend will make that much harder...

 

From what you've written it sounds like there's basically zero chance IMO. He might as well bite the bullet and look for a R where he can actually be happy. And yes, having you in the picture while attempting R is a DOA unfortunately.

 

 

 

t thanks for listening.

 

YW. It may take a while for him to adjust emotionally, but yes, you in the picture makes reconciliation a non-starter from everything I gather here. IF reconciliation even happens - I wouldn't be putting any money on it. Suggest you try to stay out of things as much as possible.

 

It's sad in a way that he's choosing lifestyle over happiness, but everyone's a little different. Just my personal opinion, but I feel like he should cut his wife loose so they can both find happiness instead of trying to prolong something that's not working.

 

 

Enjoy your green tea boba...

[DKT3]

Mark that is assuming that he is actually being honest. He may very well be happy in his marriage, and playing OP. We dont know, she doesn't really know.

 

Im concerned that she is pushing for him to be divorce so he cant get his own place. I mean that sound pretty immature since she has no intention to end her marriage.

[mark clemson]

Fair enough DKT3...

[GreenTeaBoba]

Almost certainly yes. Particularly in a work context.

 

From what you've written it sounds like there's basically zero chance IMO. He might as well bite the bullet and look for a R where he can actually be happy. And yes, having you in the picture while attempting R is a DOA unfortunately.

 

This is exactly what I was worried about. I feel like I'm abandoning someone who has leaned on me through a lot of tough times -- but while he was very reserved and hands off during our "friends" conversation -- no hug goodbye even -- the strong physical component of our prior R makes me worry that things might backslide. He's not a serial cheater though. More than that though, while his W actually didn't make him cut contact with me when he asked her for R during the D, I wouldn't want to hurt her and can't assume she'd be happy with him contacting me even platonically.

 

I was drinking a matcha boba tea when I registered to write this sob story. Seemed apropos!!

Edited August 14, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
fixed quote

[GreenTeaBoba]

Mark that is assuming that he is actually being honest. He may very well be happy in his marriage, and playing OP. We dont know, she doesn't really know.

 

Im concerned that she is pushing for him to be divorce so he cant get his own place. I mean that sound pretty immature since she has no intention to end her marriage.

 

I see your concern DKT3 -- actually, when he asked her for a trial separation I suggested he live in one part of their house snd she in another. When she filed and he retained a lawyer, his W made it clear she wanted to stay in the house with the kids and he could find a place nearby. I had nothing to do with that decision but was supportive once it was made.

[Zona]

suggestion of having a monogamous/safe/NSA sex partner.

 

Is your AP any of those things? This certainly wasn't NSA. It doesn't sound like his wife was on board with an open marriage so that doesn't sound very "safe", at least for her. We can assume he was still having sex with his wife, so no monogamy here.

 

So you are saying that your husband knew you were having an affair, who it was with, and the level of emotional attachment that was being created, and he was totally fine with it?

 

What kind of health problems does he have that turned him into a eunich?

Edited August 14, 2019 by Zona

[Amethyst68]

I don't think this man wants to save his family, he wants to save his assets! Strange how giving his marriage a try only happened after seeing a lawyer - may have had something to do with the amount of money he'd be paying out.

 

This man's actions were (and are) extremely disrespectful to his wife. Not only in remaining in contact with you but in introducing you to his parents. That is a major family betrayal and I wonder if his wife is aware of it.

 

BTW I'm unaware of any heath issue being able to affect a person's sexual identity, therefore I doubt your husband is asexual. Now if he's impotent, unable to have sex or even desire it at the moment due to illness that's another matter.

[spiritedaway2003]

... and I want your thoughts on friendships with former affair partners.

 

It's not realistic to be just friends. Not in the short term, anyway. Too many risk of backsliding. And his W would want him to cut off all contacts, which is not unreasonable. True reconciliation with his wife will not be possible with you in the way. On these boards, most will burn the MM at the stakes, but I believe there are MM out there who are truly confused and conflicted by their feelings. That's not to say that there aren't manipulative people out there, but not everyone that falls for another person is a scumbag who intended to cheat on their S/O. If your MM is a decent man (aside from the A), his emotions are quite normal: Guilt of the A, the effects on his kids, the reality of divorce, the financial implications, and the fear that you won't be there for him at the end of it. The hardest part is that rational thoughts do not always match up to one's feelings. There is a lot at stake.

 

I genuinely think the only way is to let go and give him and his wife a chance to work on their R. She deserves that chance to either work things out or end things. Give them the space to sort things out without you in the picture. If it's meant to be, he will come back and find you. I wouldn't count on it, not because he didn't love you. Rather, the comforts and history of a married life is too hard to break. If he were miserable, he would have divorced already.

 

To remain "friends" would mean that you would end up hurting yourself in the long term while he gets can have his cake and eat it too (to stay connected). All the while continuing to hurt his W. He needs to make a decision. There is no upside for you in this arrangement.

 

It's going to hurt either way. Good luck.

[BaileyB]

Is there a reason why you don’t leave and divorce your husband? I would think that an arrangement such as the one you have with your husband, is not very common for women.

 

You may well have an “open marriage,” but you have clearly crossed the line by developing feelings for this man. So much so, that you are now willing to refrain from the sexual aspect of the affair, but you want to keep the “friendship,” I mean - the inappropriate emotional attachment you have with this man. I’m surprised that your husband is ok with this, assuming that he knows the depth of your involvement with this man.

 

Am I wrong to assume that he is not your only affair partner, as you have said “exMM WAS my first EMR?” While, you mention that you are “his only EMR in a very long marriage.”

 

So basically, all was good for him until he learned how costly divorce was going to be for his bottom line. And, all was good for you until you realized how emotionally needy he was going to be if he divorced...

 

You have both now apparently realized that your current arrangement suits you both just fine. I say that only because if you hadn’t, you wouldn’t be asking if it was possible to continue a “friendship” with your affair partner. It’s likely only a matter of time before you resume the affair...

 

Workplace affairs are increadibly risky. His family knows about you, your coworkers know about your relationship, you travel together for work AND pleasure - feel good stuff that it increadibly stupid if you both want to keep your jobs and your marriages.

 

I don’t know - can you stay “friends” after being engaged in a sexual and emotional affair? As they say, you can’t unring a bell... So, I’m inclined to believe that two people who have not demonstrated any boundaries with each other or in their marriages are not going to be able to somehow magically develop the ability to establish and maintain healthy boundaries.

 

Besides, how fair is it to his “lovely” wife, if he chose to recommit to the marriage and keep a close friendship with his affair partner. How would you feel about that if you were in her position?

Edited August 14, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[BaileyB]

actually, when he asked her for a trial separation I suggested he live in one part of their house snd she in another.

 

That sounds about as realistic as his request to maintain a “friendship” with his affair partner.

 

When she filed and he retained a lawyer, his W made it clear she wanted to stay in the house with the kids and he could find a place nearby.

 

This sounds more reasonable, particularly after she has discovered his affair and decided to kick her cheating husband to the curb.

[BaileyB]

while his W actually didn't make him cut contact with me when he asked her for R during the D, I wouldn't want to hurt her and can't assume she'd be happy with him contacting me even platonically.

 

She likely hasn’t thought of it yet. But, she will... give her time.

 

And, I believe your quote should perhaps say “I wouldn’t want to hurt her more than I already have....”

 

I imagine that your assertion is probably correct, I doubt that she would welcome your continued involvement in her marriage.

Edited August 14, 2019 by BaileyB

[Starswillshine]

So the guy gets super hysterical when divorce starts to happen, crying and making sure you will be there for him? Sounds like a man who knows he will be hurting and needs someone to prop him up. Doesnt sound like a man who was ready to divorce, truly miserable.

 

If a marriage is bad enough, you want out even without someone else there for you. You're miserable. Doesnt seem to be the case here.

[stillafool]

It's the same old story. MM is dying for a divorce from his horrible wife and is sacrificing himself and staying only for the kids. Wife decides she no longer wants him and finally asks for a divorce and MM goes nuts and begs to stay. It's usually them who are begging the wife for a second chance yet they tell the OW that she fell apart and it's only fair that they give the marriage one more shot for her and the kids. What a load of B.S.

[elaine567]

I guess he thought his wife would be begging to stay. He had a meltdown when he realised divorce could actually happen, it was real, it was staring him in the face.

50yo divorcee living alone in an apartment, assets halved and big child payments, kids seeing him as the horrible guy who split up the family and made their Mom cry... PANIC

 

He ran to you, his only option left, then when he had another chance with the wife, he dropped you like a hot potato.

Now he is not panicking any longer, his wife has calmed down, and he realises the old status quo when he had 2 women in tow, is perhaps still an option...

[heartwhole2]

Personally I couldn't turn my feelings off for someone and turn a romantic relationship into a casual friendship. This serves him because he wants to retain your emotional support, but does it serve you? Obviously there's the risk that you will fall back in bed together at some point if you keep this up as well.

 

In looking for a relationship to suit your sexual needs, you'd do well to find someone who is not lying and cheating to keep up his end of the relationship. I absolutely believe you can have ethical non-monogamy, but not when your partner is treating his spouse in bad faith.

[karmaisabitotch]

his statement "let's be friend" is now you're his "friend with benefit". Would you want to be labeled like that? I would walk away immediately as soon as he says "let's be friend" because I have deep romantically feeling for that man, and I can't switch my feeling from lover to friend. He wants to keep you in the emotional loop, he will contact you say hi here and there when he feels like it, and then when he's horny, he will bomb you with "love you" to get you in bed.

[Zona]

I absolutely believe you can have ethical non-monogamy, but not when your partner is treating his spouse in bad faith.

 

People who are successful at it have learned through the experience of others what works and what doesn't with non-monogamy.

 

Here is what gives it a chance to be successful, and enhance your marriage rather than destroy it.

 

- Having a marriage so good, you don't "need" non-monogamy.

- Having insane levels of trust in each other.

- Total honesty and transparency with your partner.

- Never doing anything with anybody that your spouse does not approve of.

- Having "reclamation" sex with your spouse very soon after having sex with other person.

- Limiting the number of "hookups" with any one individual.

- No contact with other partner(s) that spouse doesn't know about, and even then, emotional attachment needs to be avoided at all costs.

 

I don't believe any of these things were true with OP, so this train-wreck was completely predictable.

[elaine567]

He wants to keep you in the emotional loop, he will contact you say hi here and there when he feels like it, and then when he's horny, he will bomb you with "love you" to get you in bed.

 

That's what tends to happen after Dday.

A pared down version of the affair survives - less frills, less ILYs, less future faking, less risky behaviour... but you are there for when he needs you for support and sex on his terms.

 

MM=happy. Less guilt, less risk but needs met. It works. He has a besotted woman at his beck and call.

OW= not so happy. Less love, less affection and needs not really met. Less of a love affair, more of an "on call" arrangement.

[Turning point]

I've only read your opening post, so if something has been added after it won't be reflected in my response. You seem like a very intelligent woman so I'll just cut to the chase.

 

You've already had a taste of the real dysfunction this EMR can bring to your life. The revolving door, bat**** crazy breakdowns, 100 texts a day, the who knows, who doesn't know dichotomy that polarizes your social and work life, etc. None of this is

healthy and none of this is part of living an authentic life.

 

You describe your own marriage as some sort of fake front, the MM like he's your favorite sweater. I don't know what this is but, it's not a love story and it's not very friendly either.

 

The smartest person in all of this is the MM's soon to be ex-wife. She's found her agency and she's leaving. No more games, feigned separations, etc. She's the real deal and she's taking back her life. It's not much of a surprise that MM reacted to this like a child in distress. Think about that - do you want to be his mommy? 100 texts a day is not communication it's spoon-feeding.

 

I won't tell you to focus on your own marriage because if that mattered you've have already done it. What I will suggest is that you focus on your best interest and cut the apron string to this 50 year old man child.

[BaileyB]

The smartest person in all of this is the MM's soon to be ex-wife. She's found her agency and she's leaving. No more games, feigned separations, etc. She's the real deal and she's taking back her life. It's not much of a surprise that MM reacted to this like a child in distress.

 

So true. He is most likely dancing to her tune now...

 

It still however, hasn’t kept him from reaching out to the OW, which is sad.

[somanymistakes]

actually, when he asked her for a trial separation I suggested he live in one part of their house snd she in another.

That sounds about as realistic as his request to maintain a “friendship” with his affair partner.

 

 

Why? It's extremely common! It's actually RECOMMENDED in most divorce forums! It saves money, it helps prevent you from losing a foothold on the house/custody, and it provides an incentive for the partner who wants the divorce to hurry up and make an agreement.

 

Everything he's said and done makes perfectly sense within a divorce context.

 

This was not a scenario where as soon as his wife said the D word he pulled out all the stops begging her to take him back and promising to behave. This is one where he was willing to go through with it, until the immensity of the change hit him, and then he had an emotional breakdown.

 

This is not that unusual for a man (especially a man) in the throes of a divorce. It does not mean that he is some machiavellian manipulator plotting to have his cake and eat it too. It means that he's been suddenly struck to the core in a way that makes him feel vulnerable and he cannot handle it and is having a meltdown.

 

He needs to talk to a therapist rather than call OP.

 

GreenTeaBoba, it is not in your OR his best interests to try to "be friends" right now. You need to set firm boundaries with him. Point out that he has hurt you in his confusion and you can't deal with him right now. If he needs emotional support he should get it from his therapist.