The "let's be friends" talk in affairs vs relationships

[Turning point]

Unfortunately, my H is truly asexual due to health conditions. We have a good marriage and he has been supportive and not jealous at the suggestion of having a monogamous/safe/NSA sex partner. He did express doubt that a married colleague was a good choice for that, even if said colleague had been in a monogamous marriage for decades.

 

Here's where your thinkin' get's really stinkin'.

 

If indeed your husband is down with you having NSA sex, then:

 

1.) why all the emphasis on emotion?

2.) Why participate to diminish the lives of others (wife and children) to get this need met?

 

These aren't moral questions, their pragmatic. You've put your own welfare at risk on three fronts - the MM, the wife, and your workplace. Affair with MM = drama. Without excusing the MM, is it not true that a satellite view of this would actually show you as the invading toxin in an otherwise normal marriage? This is why your husband was wise to suggest MM as off limits.

 

I don't think you should manage your love life the same way you would medicine. Between your spouse's tolerance and this MM you appear to be putting love through clinical trials.

[GreenTeaBoba]

It's not realistic to be just friends. Not in the short term, anyway. Too many risk of backsliding. And his W would want him to cut off all contacts, which is not unreasonable. True reconciliation with his wife will not be possible with you in the way. On these boards, most will burn the MM at the stakes, but I believe there are MM out there who are truly confused and conflicted by their feelings. That's not to say that there aren't manipulative people out there, but not everyone that falls for another person is a scumbag who intended to cheat on their S/O. If your MM is a decent man (aside from the A), his emotions are quite normal: Guilt of the A, the effects on his kids, the reality of divorce, the financial implications, and the fear that you won't be there for him at the end of it. The hardest part is that rational thoughts do not always match up to one's feelings. There is a lot at stake.

 

I genuinely think the only way is to let go and give him and his wife a chance to work on their R. She deserves that chance to either work things out or end things. Give them the space to sort things out without you in the picture. If it's meant to be, he will come back and find you. I wouldn't count on it, not because he didn't love you. Rather, the comforts and history of a married life is too hard to break. If he were miserable, he would have divorced already.

 

To remain "friends" would mean that you would end up hurting yourself in the long term while he gets can have his cake and eat it too (to stay connected). All the while continuing to hurt his W. He needs to make a decision. There is no upside for you in this arrangement.

 

It's going to hurt either way. Good luck.

 

Thanks for the helpful advice.

 

This is what I've been telling myself. I know that love for an AP can never outweigh the history of (even a bad) marriage with kids, and honestly I did not want him to ever factor ME into his decision to leave. Both his parents and I told him that -- and I did pull back when she served him papers and he started going through with the divorce.

 

It's going to hurt no matter what. The rapid 180, from clinging to me and confessing deep love to crying that he *needs* to give his marriage one more "real" try, was traumatizing. At least in non-affair relationships, there's often a slow death and rarely a previous MP who they're returning to. Particularly as we were quite compatible and many of the people around us (their/our mutual friends, and myself) have seen their fights and acrimony over the years... nobody thought he'd actually run back to her. I would have put money on them divorcing even if I wasn't the AP.

 

And that "abandoned" feeling -- I wasn't thrown under a bus, but it hurts. A lot.

[GreenTeaBoba]

Is there a reason why you don’t leave and divorce your husband? I would think that an arrangement such as the one you have with your husband, is not very common for women.

 

I've considered it and we've discussed it and very well might, someday. We get along and I have not thought about having more children or wanting someone else I want to be with as a spouse, so we're comfortable.

 

You may well have an “open marriage,” but you have clearly crossed the line by developing feelings for this man. So much so, that you are now willing to refrain from the sexual aspect of the affair, but you want to keep the “friendship,” I mean - the inappropriate emotional attachment you have with this man. I’m surprised that your husband is ok with this, assuming that he knows the depth of your involvement with this man.

 

Am I wrong to assume that he is not your only affair partner, as you have said “exMM WAS my first EMR?” While, you mention that you are “his only EMR in a very long marriage.”

 

xMM was/is the one pushing for a friendship of some sort. I am going to miss him quite a bit but don't think this is possible. And it may be ego rather than emotion, but it hurts a lot that he was/is so able to dial back from seeming VERY in love with me for months, to being perfectly fine with once-in-a-while text conversations to check in. That's not a friendship, really, but it also means he could kill his feelings for me quickly (or never had them) and I need distance to get over that fact.

 

xMM is my first/only EMR. I have had two previous ONS with different vetted partners my H approved of first, for NSA sex that didn't continue with any contact. This affair was a totally different beast that steamrolled the arrangement.

 

So basically, all was good for him until he learned how costly divorce was going to be for his bottom line. And, all was good for you until you realized how emotionally needy he was going to be if he divorced...

 

You have both now apparently realized that your current arrangement suits you both just fine. I say that only because if you hadn’t, you wouldn’t be asking if it was possible to continue a “friendship” with your affair partner. It’s likely only a matter of time before you resume the affair...

 

Workplace affairs are increadibly risky. His family knows about you, your coworkers know about your relationship, you travel together for work AND pleasure - feel good stuff that it increadibly stupid if you both want to keep your jobs and your marriages.

 

I don’t know - can you stay “friends” after being engaged in a sexual and emotional affair? As they say, you can’t unring a bell... So, I’m inclined to believe that two people who have not demonstrated any boundaries with each other or in their marriages are not going to be able to somehow magically develop the ability to establish and maintain healthy boundaries.

 

It may be the newness of his attempted R with his W, but when we met yesterday and he gave me the "I don't want to lose you from my life, can we be normal friends?" speech, he seemed very firm in his decision not to re-open the possibility of an affair. No flirting, no hint that he wanted to sneak around other than switching from open communication (calls/texts) to an app that doesn't show up on their phone bill. So I'm inclined to think he may be over the sexual part of our affair? Or maybe I'm being naive.

 

Thank you for your blunt and honest insight, by the way.

[Turning point]

... it provides an incentive for the partner who wants the divorce to hurry up and make an agreement.

 

That's one of the world's other great lies. In-house separation is a strategy promoted by the legal industry, who is the primary beneficiary in highly contested divorces. Yes, you can certainly use this strategy to wear the other side down but, it is usually the most vulnerable partner who is exploited.

 

A person who wants a divorce get's one, and they get out, kick out, or amicably split.

 

A person who wants the spoils of marriage (assets, dominance, revenge, etc) will not leave even when the divorce is under way. For them it's a material matter not a life change.

 

I would not recommend sharing the home to anyone who is not mutually and amicably (for real - not just nominally) divorcing. Even then, when people realize they want to change their life - they usually do it without delay.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Turning point

[GreenTeaBoba]

So the guy gets super hysterical when divorce starts to happen, crying and making sure you will be there for him? Sounds like a man who knows he will be hurting and needs someone to prop him up. Doesnt sound like a man who was ready to divorce, truly miserable.

 

If a marriage is bad enough, you want out even without someone else there for you. You're miserable. Doesnt seem to be the case here.

 

This, exactly this, is how I felt when I started NC. He can't have wanted a D that badly, despite complaining for a LONG time (even before we had an inkling of an affair) about their incompatibilities, their fights, their indifference to one another. Either it wasn't that bad or it's still less than the stress and cost of going through with a D. I felt like an emotional crutch when he broke NC.

[d0nnivain]

At the end of any relationship let's be friends means 1 of 2 things, neither of which actually means that the people will be genuine friends & interact with each other in a caring manner.

 

Usually let's be friends means:

 

1. I don't want any drama. If we see each other, I'd like everybody to be civil

 

2. The dumpee doesn't really want this romance to be over so the dumpee is hoping to hang around & be an orbiter until the dumper takes them back. It's a half-a-loaf theory; I'll take what little crumbs I can get

 

Since you & your OM work together, peaceful co-existence that doesn't disrupt your work place & get either of you fired is probably for the best. I can't believe your BS is OK with this but . . .Any thing more is a continuing affront to your marriage.

[GreenTeaBoba]

It's the same old story. MM is dying for a divorce from his horrible wife and is sacrificing himself and staying only for the kids. Wife decides she no longer wants him and finally asks for a divorce and MM goes nuts and begs to stay. It's usually them who are begging the wife for a second chance yet they tell the OW that she fell apart and it's only fair that they give the marriage one more shot for her and the kids. What a load of B.S.

 

You know, I spent MONTHS reading LS from both the OW/OM and the BS forums, to 1) figure out how to handle this affair; 2) try to leave it (which I attempted a few times and he asked me to stay); and 3) wonder if maybe our A was different. Of course it wasn't. I ended up in the same old story. You are right, stillafool.

[GreenTeaBoba]

I guess he thought his wife would be begging to stay. He had a meltdown when he realised divorce could actually happen, it was real, it was staring him in the face.

50yo divorcee living alone in an apartment, assets halved and big child payments, kids seeing him as the horrible guy who split up the family and made their Mom cry... PANIC

 

He ran to you, his only option left, then when he had another chance with the wife, he dropped you like a hot potato.

Now he is not panicking any longer, his wife has calmed down, and he realises the old status quo when he had 2 women in tow, is perhaps still an option...

 

The panic you described is EXACTLY how it played out, down to his worrying about being in an apartment and only seeing his kids part time.

 

His insistence on wanting to be friends and "checking in to see how I am and if I'm ok" confuses the hell out of me. He didn't give ant romantic or sexual indication that he wanted to continue the A, granted, it's been less than 2 weeks since he ended things to try R.

[GreenTeaBoba]

People who are successful at it have learned through the experience of others what works and what doesn't with non-monogamy.

 

Here is what gives it a chance to be successful, and enhance your marriage rather than destroy it.

 

- Having a marriage so good, you don't "need" non-monogamy.

- Having insane levels of trust in each other.

- Total honesty and transparency with your partner.

- Never doing anything with anybody that your spouse does not approve of.

- Having "reclamation" sex with your spouse very soon after having sex with other person.

- Limiting the number of "hookups" with any one individual.

- No contact with other partner(s) that spouse doesn't know about, and even then, emotional attachment needs to be avoided at all costs.

 

I don't believe any of these things were true with OP, so this train-wreck was completely predictable.

 

These are such great points, Zona, and (non-monogamy being very new to my H and I, and us not reading any manuals or books on it) you are absolutely right -- we did NONE of the above and it ended in an absolute trainwreck of broken hearts and differing expectations.

[GreenTeaBoba]

That's what tends to happen after Dday.

A pared down version of the affair survives - less frills, less ILYs, less future faking, less risky behaviour... but you are there for when he needs you for support and sex on his terms.

 

MM=happy. Less guilt, less risk but needs met. It works. He has a besotted woman at his beck and call.

OW= not so happy. Less love, less affection and needs not really met. Less of a love affair, more of an "on call" arrangement.

 

Maybe, but this certainly doesn't feel like an affair anymore. I'm not besotted any longer; I'm hurt and absolutely don't want to jump into bed with him under circumstances like this. And he didn't give any indication he wanted to resume a PA.

[GreenTeaBoba]

I've only read your opening post, so if something has been added after it won't be reflected in my response. You seem like a very intelligent woman so I'll just cut to the chase.

 

You've already had a taste of the real dysfunction this EMR can bring to your life. The revolving door, bat**** crazy breakdowns, 100 texts a day, the who knows, who doesn't know dichotomy that polarizes your social and work life, etc. None of this is

healthy and none of this is part of living an authentic life.

 

You describe your own marriage as some sort of fake front, the MM like he's your favorite sweater. I don't know what this is but, it's not a love story and it's not very friendly either.

 

The smartest person in all of this is the MM's soon to be ex-wife. She's found her agency and she's leaving. No more games, feigned separations, etc. She's the real deal and she's taking back her life. It's not much of a surprise that MM reacted to this like a child in distress. Think about that - do you want to be his mommy? 100 texts a day is not communication it's spoon-feeding.

 

I won't tell you to focus on your own marriage because if that mattered you've have already done it. What I will suggest is that you focus on your best interest and cut the apron string to this 50 year old man child.

 

Good advice, and when I started NC it was in order to separate myself from him and the situation.

 

You refer to his W as his soon-to-be ex-wife. Before he panicked and ran back to her, she had consistently asked to try again and work on their marriage and he rebuffed her. Now that he's offering to R, you would think they might actually stay together? I did wonder if her filing for D was to call his bluff. Honestly, both she and I would be better off away from this self-centered man-child, but I think she's likely to stay with him.

[BaileyB]

Why? It's extremely common! It's actually RECOMMENDED in most divorce forums! It saves money, it helps prevent you from losing a foothold on the house/custody

 

I don’t disagree. Except, if the divorce is because my husband cheated with another woman - he’s not moving to another room in the house, he is moving out of the house.

[GreenTeaBoba]

Why? It's extremely common! It's actually RECOMMENDED in most divorce forums! It saves money, it helps prevent you from losing a foothold on the house/custody, and it provides an incentive for the partner who wants the divorce to hurry up and make an agreement.

 

Everything he's said and done makes perfectly sense within a divorce context.

 

This was not a scenario where as soon as his wife said the D word he pulled out all the stops begging her to take him back and promising to behave. This is one where he was willing to go through with it, until the immensity of the change hit him, and then he had an emotional breakdown.

 

This is not that unusual for a man (especially a man) in the throes of a divorce. It does not mean that he is some machiavellian manipulator plotting to have his cake and eat it too. It means that he's been suddenly struck to the core in a way that makes him feel vulnerable and he cannot handle it and is having a meltdown.

 

He needs to talk to a therapist rather than call OP.

 

GreenTeaBoba, it is not in your OR his best interests to try to "be friends" right now. You need to set firm boundaries with him. Point out that he has hurt you in his confusion and you can't deal with him right now. If he needs emotional support he should get it from his therapist.

 

This. This, this, this. And what somanymistakes said about it being common in divorce forums is what his attorney said -- do not leave their marital home until a custody agreement was in place, etc. The divorce filing wasn't even a month old when he ended things with me. And, based on (male and female) friends I've seen divorce over the years, it is VERY common for some back-and-forth and waffling, and even some stopping divorce proceedings to attempt R before actually going through with D, to happen. I've just... never been an affair partner in the middle of this second-guessing/fear/panic that comes with such a big change.

 

Thanks for the advice.

[GreenTeaBoba]

Here's where your thinkin' get's really stinkin'.

 

If indeed your husband is down with you having NSA sex, then:

 

1.) why all the emphasis on emotion?

2.) Why participate to diminish the lives of others (wife and children) to get this need met?

 

These aren't moral questions, their pragmatic. You've put your own welfare at risk on three fronts - the MM, the wife, and your workplace. Affair with MM = drama. Without excusing the MM, is it not true that a satellite view of this would actually show you as the invading toxin in an otherwise normal marriage? This is why your husband was wise to suggest MM as off limits.

 

I don't think you should manage your love life the same way you would medicine. Between your spouse's tolerance and this MM you appear to be putting love through clinical trials.

 

Fair enough. And, emotion was not something either MM or I anticipated becoming such a factor. We are very clinical and not people who get attached easily to others. We became incredibly attached to one another.

[GreenTeaBoba]

That's one of the world's other great lies. In-house separation is a strategy promoted by the legal industry, who is the primary beneficiary in highly contested divorces. Yes, you can certainly use this strategy to wear the other side down but, it is usually the most vulnerable partner who is exploited.

 

A person who wants a divorce get's one, and they get out, kick out, or amicably split.

 

A person who wants the spoils of marriage (assets, dominance, revenge, etc) will not leave even when the divorce is under way. For them it's a material matter not a life change.

 

I would not recommend sharing the home to anyone who is not mutually and amicably (for real - not just nominally) divorcing. Even then, when people realize they want to change their life - they usually do it without delay.

 

Great point, turningpoint, and it supports the observation that xMM only started to panic and act out of character once he'd started meeting with his divorce attorney and they were calculating alimony, child support, visitation, etc. He VERY often spoke of missing their marital home (the actual house) when he would move out, and expressed concern that they sell it and split profits rather than his W keeping it.

[Turning point]

He VERY often spoke of missing their marital home (the actual house) when he would move out, and expressed concern that they sell it and split profits rather than his W keeping it.

 

This is a huge red flag, because he expresses the family home as a personal and material concern, rather than a welfare and coping concern for his children or wife. (No mention of how other people are expected to cope.)

 

MM is associating possession of the home with his own guilt. He sees that loss as proof of his failure and so he won't let the wife keep it - even if she could make him substantially better off by doing so. This is very common - and a side of his personality that should send you running.

[Turning point]

We are very clinical and not people who get attached easily to others. We became incredibly attached to one another.

 

This is clearly a self proven fallacy. In your case at least, you were wrong about your attachment. You're here reeling over the MM, and simultaneously showing a favorable attachment to your husband.

 

Again, medicine promotes detachment. But clearly you have an ability to turn that off. Maybe it's time to take a good look at when and where you are applying it?

[heartwhole2]

Fair enough. And, emotion was not something either MM or I anticipated becoming such a factor. We are very clinical and not people who get attached easily to others. We became incredibly attached to one another.

 

I'm surprised that as a medical professional you were not viewing human attachment as a natural and biological process (think of the role of oxytocin). The same drive that makes you seek out sex also makes you attach to the person you're regularly having sex with.

 

I highly recommend IC for outside perspective. As you've discovered, it's very hard to see yourself objectively. For example, you read here for years but never considered posting until you were dealing with rejection and heartache. Did you assume that you were not susceptible to the same fallacies and weaknesses as other humans? In order to be emotionally healthy, you need to be honest with yourself and self-aware. Intellectual intelligence is not the same as emotional intelligence.

[elaine567]

Maybe, but this certainly doesn't feel like an affair anymore. I'm not besotted any longer; I'm hurt and absolutely don't want to jump into bed with him under circumstances like this. And he didn't give any indication he wanted to resume a PA.

 

He knows he hurt you, so he is playing it cool.

He knows if he rushes things you could flee, so its just friends at the moment. One step at a time

Softly, softly, catchee monkey

[Mrin]

Ok I am going to go a slightly different direction on than some others. I'm going to take everything he said at face value.

 

I think he genuinely wanted a divorce and a future with you in it. But it wasn't turning out how he expected. First, the wife took the initiative which can feel like a rejection. My XW was the one who asked for a divorce and it hit me like a truck even though I had been debating asking for a divorce myself. I should have been happy she did the "dirty work" for me. Looking back, I felt really rejected. If I had an AP I am sure I would have become all clingy. I suppose that is what happened here.

 

Next I think he learned the cold hard facts of divorce law. He saw that he was going to write a big check. And if his W doesn't work, keep writing big checks every month for years. That can not only be a tough pill to swallow but a deal breaker.

 

When someone has a fantasy about divorce they see themselves with their disposable income traveling the world and having care free monkey sex. They don't see having to downsize their lives and send a huge chunk of their income each month to their ex. It can be terrifying.

 

I think he just panicked and I don't blame him. Divorce is a scary thing. Toss in the guilt of an affair and there you have it.

 

I also think he is probably genuine wanting to rekindle a friendship with you. He misses you. You were a big happy part of his life. That's okay too.

 

All that being said - taking everything he's said and done in the most positive light, here is why you have to cut him off. He's said he wants to repair his marriage. The only way to do that is for him to re-establish a couple bubble with him and his wife. That means she has to fill the role you would play if you rekindled a friendship. She can't take that role if you're in the way. And he won't give her that role with you there.

 

So ya, I think you need to tell him goodbye. They probably won't make it but you're giving him (and her) the best possible chance to make it work.

 

Best of luck!

 

Mrin

[mark clemson]

I also think he is probably genuine wanting to rekindle a friendship with you. He misses you. You were a big happy part of his life. That's okay too.

 

 

This may well be true. Elaine's take above may also be true. It's also possible that your something of a "Plan B" or soft landing (maybe just emotionally, which he seems to need) on the assumption the divorce does go through.

 

These 3 are not mutually exclusive either - it could be a combination of all of them.

[Amethyst68]

The truth is you may never know but that should not be your concern or your priority. What should? Your life, your marriage etc.

 

This may be the catalyst you need to examine your own life and figure out what your future looks like.

[elaine567]

Seems to me this arrangement you have with your husband is not sustainable long term.

You ran straight into the arms of another man and fell in love, like most monogamists will do.

Perfect solution really, eventually substitute the husband with this man of equal stature. You did not need to grub around Tinder or AM looking for NSA sex with strangers, he was right there at work a decent long term prospect too for you... BUT... in reality married, too old, a cheater, a cake eater...

 

Open marriages work for people who are not monogamous, who both want to explore their sexuality with others, they don't tend to work in people who got married and then face a sexual problem in one partner.

The one who is free to find sex elsewhere almost immediately finds someone to fall in love with, which is what happened here.

They transfer their love and loyalty to the new sexual partner...

 

Now this fiasco has ended bar the shouting, where do you go from here?

My advice - forget the open marriage, divorce your husband and make a determined effort to find a new man before you get too old.

An "open marriage" arrangement will attract all kinds of guys to your door. Few will be of the quality you need, but you will still fall in love with them anyway...

[GreenTeaBoba]

Wow, so many replies. Thanks, everyone! I'm reading through all of them now because it's been one crazy week... both personally and otherwise.

 

So our hospital was placed on lockdown two days ago due to an active shooter in the area (which was terrifying). Interestingly, all of the staff get automated texts during emergencies so I was aware of this right away, but two minutes after the first lockdown alert came, xMM messaged me to let me know as well. He knew I would have gotten the exact same alert as he did.

 

Then yesterday evening, a dribble of texts asking what I was up to, about work recently... I'll be damned. I was polite and short but ended the conversation. So confused; he sounded almost (almost) like he hadn't dumped me. He wasn't sappy or romantic, but I hadn't had him ask so much about me since we first got together. Today, nada, but it's a hectic Friday all around.

 

I'm trying to move forward with radio silence. I'm not angry, I miss him a lot, still, but I understand why he made the choice that he did. I still don't know what's going on with his weird behavior -- especially since he claimed to need to make one last shot at fixing his marriage, he shouldn't be repeatedly reaching out to me even platonically. It's definitely creating some cognitive dissonance.

 

Again, I'm so appreciative of everyone here at LS. You've made me feel less lost and alone in this craziness.

[GreenTeaBoba]

Postscript -- one thing that I found interesting when we texted briefly a couple of days ago was that I asked if his wife told/asked him to cut all communication with me or block me and he said no (although he didn't want calls or texts between us to show up on their phone bill). He also had unfriended his wife and her family members on Facebook after divorce papers were served, but re-added me on all social media. If I had been his wife, this would have upset me. What on Earth???