"That's just how I am"

[TimmyBoy]

Hey guys,

 

First post here.

 

I wondered if I could get your take on the following issue:

 

I have found that there are a lot of people out there who are not used to being judged for treating people badly - at least, as long as that treatment falls below an arbitrary level of seriousness that they have decided upon. So if you disagree with how they have treated someone their response is along the lines of "yeah well that's just how I am, take it or leave it, if you don't like it then don't work with/live with/hang out with/date people like me".

 

I have found that forum discussions about dating often reach this point. For example:

 

A: Why do guys sometimes get friend zoned?

 

B: Because it makes us girls feel betrayed if a male friend has been pretending to be our friend when really he wanted more.

 

A: How do you know he was just pretending? Why are friendship and attraction mutually exclusive? Aren't you basically penalising a guy for actually taking an interest in getting to know you better rather than judging you solely on looks? And isn't it also possible that he didn't think he had a chance with you and thought that friendship was better than nothing, but eventually he plucked up the courage to ask you out?

 

B: Well I find it to be a betrayal! You can't tell me what to do! That's just how I am! If you don't like it then don't go out with women like me!

 

Real life example:

 

I recently met up with a girl from Plenty of Fish who called me fat, mocked my dress sense, said she wasn't physically attracted to me and basically made me feel like she was doing me a favour by going out with me. Even when we kissed she said I had been "obvious" that this was what I wanted.

 

Then, when I told her I didn't want to go out with her again, she was utterly shocked. As far as she was concerned, she was just "being honest" when she said these things. When I pointed out that honesty didn't imply rudeness and that keeping her uninvited opinion to herself was not the same as lying, she refused to accept that what she had said was rude and admonished me to either get over it or go out with someone else because that was just how she was; she didn't consider it rude; and she wasn't going to change because her friends and family thought she was a nice person and that was all that mattered.

 

Surely we want to hold ourselves to a higher standard than this? Yeah, OK, no-one is perfect, but surely we want to TRY to be better people, guided by reason, if we can rather than just point blank refusing? Are we really content with just saying "well s/he can just choose not to associate with me if s/he doesn't like me"?

 

With me, it turns a molehill into a mountain because the refusal to acknowledge that they were wrong and apologise is worse than what they originally did. E.g. the girl I dated could have just said "sorry, I didn't mean to be harsh, I was just trying to have a bit of banter with you but I guess it went a bit too far, I hope we are OK and that I can see you again" and it wouldn't have been such a big deal. Instead, she dug her heels in which conveyed the message to me "I think I am the Queen of the World and everyone else has to accommodate my personality flaws".

Edited August 14, 2019 by TimmyBoy

[mark clemson]

Not sure what your question is, but yes, it appears this particular woman had her head stuck way up her keister. Makes it easy to move on, I suppose...

[preraph]

Well, I mean, obviously right call not going out with her again because she obviously wasn't going to want to either. Not a match.

 

It is true that women feel betrayed and lied to and deceived when a man pretends to be their friend to get in close and then tries to come after her sexually late in the game, for a number of reasons. One, it's deceptive; two, it's cowardly; three, it's conniving; four, it means they didn't respect you when you made known you weren't romantically interested in them; five, they often find out you're claiming them to other people behind their backs and blocking them from having other boyfriends.

 

So don't play that game.

[TimmyBoy]

Well, I mean, obviously right call not going out with her again because she obviously wasn't going to want to either. Not a match.

 

Well she claimed that she did, that was what confused me. She acted shocked that I didn't want to go out again and when I said I had found her comments to be rude she was adamant that this was just how she was and she wasn't going to change because her family and friends accepted her how she was, therefore I could take it or leave it. I don't understand the "take it or leave it" attitude - why not try to be a better person?

 

It is true that women feel betrayed and lied to and deceived when a man pretends to be their friend to get in close and then tries to come after her sexually late in the game, for a number of reasons. One, it's deceptive; two, it's cowardly; three, it's conniving; four, it means they didn't respect you when you made known you weren't romantically interested in them; five, they often find out you're claiming them to other people behind their backs and blocking them from having other boyfriends.

 

So don't play that game.

 

This is a bit of an aside as the main point of my post was my bemusement at how some people genuinely don't seem to care whether they have treated someone fairly; they rationalise that, because that person has a choice over whether or not to associate with them, that's all there is to it. The topic of friendzoning was just one example of when the issue can arise. But I will respond to your point nonetheless.

 

If a guy really does just pretend to be friends in order to have sex with a girl then yes I agree that's wrong for the reasons you described... but why assume that's what he's doing? Why can't it be a perfectly innocent explanation, such as:

 

1. He lacked confidence at first. If he likes her and enjoys her company as well as being attracted to her but he doesn't think she's attracted to him what is he supposed to do - refuse to be friends?

 

2. He was interested at first but wanted to get to know her better before asking her out (surely that's a good thing as it shows he's interested in more than just looks?)

 

3. He genuinely wanted to just be friends at first but developed romantic feelings later as he got to know her personality (again, surely this shows he is not superficial?)

 

4. She actually didn't make it clear to him that she wasn't interested in him romantically

 

5. Having romantic feelings towards someone does not mean that all you want from them is sex

 

I have had female friends develop and confess romantic feelings for me before and I've never assumed there was any deception going on or taken it as anything other than a compliment.

Edited August 14, 2019 by TimmyBoy

[preraph]

^ Thing is, if something is "on," you know it. You don't sit around waiting and guessing. And women don't like it when men are hesitant and fearful. It's not attractive to them.

 

When someone is interested in you, it is pretty obvious. No real guesswork. Anytime you can't tell, it's because there's either not much there or at least an interest imbalance.

 

It's hard for women to make the transition from trusting a man like a friend and then them changing course. If they are genuinely trusting you with friendship, then likely they are telling you things they wouldn't tell a romantic interest. And if friendship goes on too long without sexual chemistry, then you just become like a brother to them and they aren't attracted.

 

I'm just saying not to change horses midstream. If you think you might be romantically interested, act like it, or you'll blow it. Who she'll like as a friend and who she'll like for a romantic interest are often two totally different types.

 

And it's also worth mentioning that most guys aren't truly interested in "just being friends" with women, although there are situations that create exceptions like working with someone, but not OLD.

 

All that aside, she's obviously not someone to stay interested in. She's crude and rude and it runs in her family. It's going to be some years and her getting knocked back about it over and over for her to realize her behavior is not socially acceptable and even then it will be hard for her to change as her whole family is likely that way.

[TimmyBoy]

Preraph, I'm not actually asking for advice on friendzoning as I don't think it's ever been a problem for me besides one or two occasions when I was younger. However I have participated in forum discussions on the topic which have often resulted in my interlocutor saying "yeah well that's just how I feel, if you don't like it then don't date women like me". So it's just one example of where the attitude I'm talking about manifests itself.

 

^ Thing is, if something is "on," you know it. You don't sit around waiting and guessing. And women don't like it when men are hesitant and fearful. It's not attractive to them.

 

It's one thing to say it's not attractive, it's another thing to call it deceitful.

 

When someone is interested in you, it is pretty obvious. No real guesswork. Anytime you can't tell, it's because there's either not much there or at least an interest imbalance.

 

I've been caught unawares before. Likewise I've had girls think I fancied them before when I didn't. It's not as black and white as you are suggesting, in my experience.

 

It's hard for women to make the transition from trusting a man like a friend and then them changing course. If they are genuinely trusting you with friendship, then likely they are telling you things they wouldn't tell a romantic interest. And if friendship goes on too long without sexual chemistry, then you just become like a brother to them and they aren't attracted.

 

I'm just saying not to change horses midstream. If you think you might be romantically interested, act like it, or you'll blow it. Who she'll like as a friend and who she'll like for a romantic interest are often two totally different types.

 

Again, the point is not whether girls find it attractive when male friends ask them out. I'm prepared to accept, for the sake of argument, that they don't. It's whether it's fair to accuse those male friends of having been deceitful. I don't believe it is for the reasons outlined above. A guy who lacks confidence or wants to get to know you better first is not a bad person trying to deceive you, even if that's not your preferred approach.

 

Also, if I have a girlfriend I want us to be close and able to talk about anything. There is nothing I would trust a friend with but not her. And if a female friend I was attracted to did tell me something she wouldn't have said had she known I wanted more than friendship, well, that would have been her decision not mine - still not deceitful.

 

If you don't find male friends who ask you out attractive for some reason, fine - but it's not fair to assume they were deceiving you. That's the point.

 

And it's also worth mentioning that most guys aren't truly interested in "just being friends" with women, although there are situations that create exceptions like working with someone, but not OLD.

 

So if most guys aren't truly interested in being friends with women how can women friendzone them or feel "deceived"? Surely a woman would be aware the whole time that he wanted more than friendship, therefore it wouldn't be a shock to her if he confessed romantic feelings for her?

 

Also if by "OLD" you mean online dating I'm not suggesting that I or anyone else uses it to contact girls just to be friends with. The girl I met from POF did not friendzone me; that's a separate topic.

 

All that aside, she's obviously not someone to stay interested in. She's crude and rude and it runs in her family. It's going to be some years and her getting knocked back about it over and over for her to realize her behavior is not socially acceptable and even then it will be hard for her to change as her whole family is likely that way.

 

I'm not interested in her. I'm just asking why some people are content to say "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" and refuse to change the way they treat people.

Edited August 14, 2019 by TimmyBoy

[preraph]

When someone is pretending to be just friends with you so that they can hang around you because you already know they're not interested in you that way but want some time to work on them, that is being deceitful. Now is that you? I don't know. We've all had it happen to us. It's called orbiting.

[TimmyBoy]

When someone is pretending to be just friends with you so that they can hang around you because you already know they're not interested in you that way but want some time to work on them, that is being deceitful.

 

But why *assume* that this is what they are doing? Why *assume* they are merely pretending to be friends? Why *assume* that they already know you're not interested? Why can't there be an innocent (albeit still unattractive, in your view) explanation as outlined above?

 

Now is that you? I don't know. We've all had it happen to us. It's called orbiting.

 

As stated above, it's not me.

 

Why assume they are orbiting?

 

Here's the point where we are at loggerheads: you seem to be assuming that, because SOME guys SOMETIMES deceitfully pretend to be friends with girls because they want to have sex with them, ALL guys who confess romantic feelings for a female friend are doing that. Why? Why assume the worst case scenario? Why disregard all innocent explanations about what could have happened?

 

It's like saying: some people steal cars. Stealing is bad. Therefore, everyone who has a car must have stolen it. It's not possible that they could have bought it fair and square.

Edited August 14, 2019 by TimmyBoy

[OatsAndHall]

People don't tend to change their behavior unless there's a serious stimulus to do so. And, it almost always has to be born out of negative repercussions for said behavior. And, in the dating world, I have found that it is rare for people to change the way they act, regardless of how badly it affects them.

 

 

Take the last gal I dated (there's a thread up in the dating forums); I called it off for a number of reasons but primarily because I was frustrated with her lack of punctuality and inability to make set plans and stick with them. She contacted me a few days later, broken up, and apologized for her behavior, told me how connected she felt to me and how much she missed me. We talked and decided to get back together. It didn't last long..

 

 

Last Friday, I asked her if she wanted to get together at some point over the weekend. Last weekend was going to be the last time we had to see each other for three weeks as both of our lives are going to be hectic and we live an hour apart. She hemmed and hawed and came up with a few reasons why the weekend wouldn't work for her. One of those reasons was that she "just wanted to chill".

 

 

 

I was taken aback as it was completely contrary to what she had said on the phone earlier in the week. I calmly explained to her that I wanted to see her as we weren't going to have a chance for awhile. She came up with a quick window of time when we could meet but she was annoyed. I told her that I wanted her to WANT to hang out with me and not view it as an obligation

 

 

It turned into a fight and I finally stated "Look, two days ago, you said you missed me, you wanted to see me, and that you hadn't cared about someone the way you cared about me for a long time. But, you're completely kosher with basically not seeing one another for a month. That doesn't make sense to me."

 

 

Her response: "That's who I am."

 

 

And, now we're done. I was the closest thing she's had to a healthy relationship in years, she said that our original breakup hurt her badly but she "is who she is" and it doesn't look like she has any plans to change.

[TimmyBoy]

People don't tend to change their behavior unless there's a serious stimulus to do so. And, it almost always has to be born out of negative repercussions for said behavior. And, in the dating world, I have found that it is rare for people to change the way they act, regardless of how badly it affects them.

 

 

Take the last gal I dated (there's a thread up in the dating forums); I called it off for a number of reasons but primarily because I was frustrated with her lack of punctuality and inability to make set plans and stick with them. She contacted me a few days later, broken up, and apologized for her behavior, told me how connected she felt to me and how much she missed me. We talked and decided to get back together. It didn't last long..

 

 

Last Friday, I asked her if she wanted to get together at some point over the weekend. Last weekend was going to be the last time we had to see each other for three weeks as both of our lives are going to be hectic and we live an hour apart. She hemmed and hawed and came up with a few reasons why the weekend wouldn't work for her. One of those reasons was that she "just wanted to chill".

 

 

 

I was taken aback as it was completely contrary to what she had said on the phone earlier in the week. I calmly explained to her that I wanted to see her as we weren't going to have a chance for awhile. She came up with a quick window of time when we could meet but she was annoyed. I told her that I wanted her to WANT to hang out with me and not view it as an obligation

 

 

It turned into a fight and I finally stated "Look, two days ago, you said you missed me, you wanted to see me, and that you hadn't cared about someone the way you cared about me for a long time. But, you're completely kosher with basically not seeing one another for a month. That doesn't make sense to me."

 

 

Her response: "That's who I am."

 

 

And, now we're done. I was the closest thing she's had to a healthy relationship in years, she said that our original breakup hurt her badly but she "is who she is" and it doesn't look like she has any plans to change.

 

Interesting story. I can relate. It's bizarre that, even in the face of losing someone they supposedly care so much about, people are still willing to fall back on the "that's just who I am" justification.

 

I hope things go better for you next time. I will check out your thread.

 

Perhaps stoicism is the only answer?

[shydad]

I wondered if I could get your take on the following issue: ... "yeah well that's just how I am, take it or leave it

Hi TimmyBoy, my take on what you said is that this is a "my way or the highway" attitude, and it is relationship poison. I believe that when a person has this attitude, there is no desire for what is involved in having a healthy relationship. Imagine starting a conversation with, "When you said/did (fill in the blank), it really hurt me. Can we talk about it?", and getting a "take it or leave it" response. I can't imagine how such a relationship could be fulfilling and lasting.

[mark clemson]

...she was adamant that this was just how she was and she wasn't going to change because her family and friends accepted her how she was, therefore I could take it or leave it. I don't understand the "take it or leave it" attitude - why not try to be a better person?

 

 

Some people are interested in personal growth, others aren't. It's really that simple IMO. The take it or leave it attitude is a reflection of that and releases the person of any obligation to adjust themselves, in their mind.

 

I like what Shydad says about how this is a problem, given that LTRs require compromise as well as the ability to smooth over disagreements. People grow (or at least change) whether they want to or not over time. Taking the attitude that you should never have to change is, frankly, unrealistic.

[OatsAndHall]

The reality is simple; never expect people to change when it comes to dating,. They truly are who they are and what they present is probably what you're going to get. And, people either learn from their behavior or they don't. The woman I dated didn't has yet to figure out anything and will not change. Unfortunately, the things that she won't work on will keep her from being in a healthy relationship.

 

 

 

Throughout my adventures in dating, I've certainly evolved into a more patient and caring individual. I try to learn from every relationship I've been in as there's always something to be taken away from them. If there's areas where I need to grow and mature, I focus on them. And, the lesson I learned from this woman goes back to my first sentence; DON'T EXPECT PEOPLE TO CHANGE.

[preraph]

But why *assume* that this is what they are doing? Why *assume* they are merely pretending to be friends? Why *assume* that they already know you're not interested? Why can't there be an innocent (albeit still unattractive, in your view) explanation as outlined above?

 

 

 

As stated above, it's not me.

 

Why assume they are orbiting?

 

Here's the point where we are at loggerheads: you seem to be assuming that, because SOME guys SOMETIMES deceitfully pretend to be friends with girls because they want to have sex with them, ALL guys who confess romantic feelings for a female friend are doing that. Why? Why assume the worst case scenario? Why disregard all innocent explanations about what could have happened?

 

It's like saying: some people steal cars. Stealing is bad. Therefore, everyone who has a car must have stolen it. It's not possible that they could have bought it fair and square.

 

Well, unless you're still naive and it hasn't happened to you yet and you can spot it, that's the problem: You don't assume and then you're blindsided one day by them coming on to you. Like one of the ones who did it to me, it was a touchy situation, one that I would not have been participating in if I'd known he was being a vulture. He was a friend of a bf and yes, we had been friends before I'd dated the boyfriend and they were band members. So when he kept inviting me to hang out after the bf and I broke up, I didn't think much of it because he had been both our friend. But then I found out he was leading up to (and it took him a long time) coming on to me. Well, once that happened, I realized I had unknowingly taken part in betraying the ex-bf, who I had no hard feelings for and more loyalty and ethics than that, and my mistake was trusting that his orbiter friend did too, but nooo, he was just trying to catch his throw-aways because he had a hard time attracting women.

 

So I mean, don't you think that was an awful thing to do and to make it look like I was actually seeing him or dating him when it was nothing to me, and how hurt or angry or how low the ex-bf must have thought I was? That was deceitful. I'm sure he had the whole group thinking we were dating, and we never were. Once he tried to kiss me, it was a big blowup. But the longer I thought about it, the madder I got, because it was unethical and I felt used, and I'm sure it didn't do my reputation any good in what had been a close group of friends.

 

That's just one example. Stick around here and you'll see plenty more.

[TimmyBoy]

Well, unless you're still naive and it hasn't happened to you yet and you can spot it, that's the problem: You don't assume and then you're blindsided one day by them coming on to you. Like one of the ones who did it to me, it was a touchy situation, one that I would not have been participating in if I'd known he was being a vulture. He was a friend of a bf and yes, we had been friends before I'd dated the boyfriend and they were band members. So when he kept inviting me to hang out after the bf and I broke up, I didn't think much of it because he had been both our friend. But then I found out he was leading up to (and it took him a long time) coming on to me. Well, once that happened, I realized I had unknowingly taken part in betraying the ex-bf, who I had no hard feelings for and more loyalty and ethics than that, and my mistake was trusting that his orbiter friend did too, but nooo, he was just trying to catch his throw-aways because he had a hard time attracting women.

 

So I mean, don't you think that was an awful thing to do and to make it look like I was actually seeing him or dating him when it was nothing to me, and how hurt or angry or how low the ex-bf must have thought I was? That was deceitful. I'm sure he had the whole group thinking we were dating, and we never were. Once he tried to kiss me, it was a big blowup. But the longer I thought about it, the madder I got, because it was unethical and I felt used, and I'm sure it didn't do my reputation any good in what had been a close group of friends.

 

That's just one example. Stick around here and you'll see plenty more.

 

Preraph, this is a strawman. I am not denying that some guys pretend to be friends with girls in order to deceive them or claim to be dating you when they are not, I'm not denying that it happens a lot, and nor am I condoning that behaviour. So you don't need to ask me whether I think it's an awful thing to do; I already agree that it is. I am simply pointing out that this is not true of every guy who develops romantic feelings for a female friend, therefore it's not fair to make that assumption in every case. If you can't acknowledge this distinction then perhaps we should just drop it (seeing as this was a tangent anyway). You appear to be projecting your own bad experiences onto every other time a guy fancies a female friend. Guilty until proven innocent. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Edited August 15, 2019 by TimmyBoy

[Gretchen12]

It doesn't mean she refuses to change. When someone says "take it or leave it" it just means they want to end that discussion at that moment.

 

I think you can take a bit of the same advice. Instead of flat out calling her rude, you could have been less accusatory (less "honest"), and simply say that you felt her words were hurtful. She'd be more likely to get it, and say she's sorry and that she didn't mean it.

 

When you are very critical, you back that person into a corner and the blaming actually triggers her defenses and makes it harder to apologize. At that point she has nowhere to go except "take it or leave it".

 

You could have been softer but you weren't going to see her again, so you told her off. She could have apologized but she wasn't going to see you again so she told you off. It's done. Now stop thinking about it!

[OatsAndHall]

Unfortunately, @TimmyBoy, @preraph is correct; there are plenty of guys who use the "friendzone" as a dating tactic. Don't get me wrong; there are men out there who are completely comfortable being in a platonic relationship with a woman. But, I have been privy to plenty of guys who hide out in that "friendzone" and try to use it as a springboard for a relationship. Social media makes this far, far more prevalent and it's really not difficult to pick out the orbiters.

 

 

 

This is an area that I struggle with when I'm in relationships with women who have guy friends. It's something that I am continually working on but a particular situation as I know it comes across as jealous and it isn't attractive. But, there is a situation with an orbiter still strikes a cord with me. Every time a woman mentioned a guy friend, my thoughts immediately shoot to this situation. Again, something I am working through.

 

 

 

My ex-wife and I had a mutual friend that we'd both known for years. I never thought anything of his contact with her as he was always polite and pleasant. But, I'm also good friends with his now ex-wife; her and I have known each other for 30+ years. I found out that she caught him having affairs with various women online and it ended their marriage. Apparently, my ex-wife was never involved but behind all of those polite,pleasant posts on her Facebook page was a guy who starting various online affairs with other women.

[basil67]

So you don't need to ask me whether I think it's an awful thing to do; I already agree that it is. I am simply pointing out that this is not true of every guy who develops romantic feelings for a female friend, therefore it's not fair to make that assumption in every case.

 

You'll get nowhere arguing 'fairness' in life. Life isn't fair.

 

People's past experiences are what influences their current/future decisions. It may not be fair to make the assumption, but if history tells the woman that this will have a poor outcome, then she'd be a fool not to take note.

Edited August 15, 2019 by basil67

[TimmyBoy]

You'll get nowhere arguing 'fairness' in life. Life isn't fair.

 

Life isn’t fair, that doesn’t mean it’s ok to treat someone unfairly. It’s a fact of life that people get murdered; that doesn’t make it ok for me to murder someone.

 

People's past experiences are what influences their current/future decisions. It may not be fair to make the assumption, but if history tells the woman that this will have a poor outcome, then she'd be a fool not to take note.

 

No she wouldn’t.

 

I have been hurt by girlfriends in the past. However I don’t judge all girls I go out with negatively as a result because that would be sexist and unfair.

 

If a gift asks a female friend out, she can just say no if she’s not interested and no harm is done. She would gain nothing by assuming the worst of his intentions. She would lose nothing by giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[TimmyBoy]

It doesn't mean she refuses to change. When someone says "take it or leave it" it just means they want to end that discussion at that moment.

 

Then why not just say “I don’t want to talk about it at the moment”? If she isn’t refusing to change then why does she say she’s refusing?

 

I think you can take a bit of the same advice. Instead of flat out calling her rude, you could have been less accusatory (less "honest"), and simply say that you felt her words were hurtful. She'd be more likely to get it, and say she's sorry and that she didn't mean it.

 

Why should I? She’s a grown woman. She should know by now that the comments she made were not OK. I shouldn’t have to explain this to her like a toddler.

 

Saying what she did doesn’t make her a bad person; it makes her a flawed human like all of us. Refusing to acknowledge that she did anything wrong and improve her behaviour is what makes her a bad person.

 

When you are very critical, you back that person into a corner and the blaming actually triggers her defenses and makes it harder to apologize. At that point she has nowhere to go except "take it or leave it".

 

Or she could accept the criticism like a grown up and admit she screwed up.

 

You could have been softer but you weren't going to see her again, so you told her off. She could have apologized but she wasn't going to see you again so she told you off. It's done. Now stop thinking about it!

 

I know that it’s done with her, this was just an example.

[TimmyBoy]

Life isn’t fair, that doesn’t mean it’s ok to treat someone unfairly. It’s a fact of life that people get murdered; that doesn’t make it ok for me to murder someone.

 

 

 

No she wouldn’t.

 

I have been hurt by girlfriends in the past. However I don’t judge all girls I go out with negatively as a result because that would be sexist and unfair.

 

If a gift asks a female friend out, she can just say no if she’s not interested and no harm is done. She would gain nothing by assuming the worst of his intentions. She would lose nothing by giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

That should say “if a GUY asks” but the forum wouldn’t let me edit it.

[TimmyBoy]

Unfortunately, @TimmyBoy, @preraph is correct; there are plenty of guys who use the "friendzone" as a dating tactic. Don't get me wrong; there are men out there who are completely comfortable being in a platonic relationship with a woman. But, I have been privy to plenty of guys who hide out in that "friendzone" and try to use it as a springboard for a relationship. Social media makes this far, far more prevalent and it's really not difficult to pick out the orbiters.

 

 

 

This is an area that I struggle with when I'm in relationships with women who have guy friends. It's something that I am continually working on but a particular situation as I know it comes across as jealous and it isn't attractive. But, there is a situation with an orbiter still strikes a cord with me. Every time a woman mentioned a guy friend, my thoughts immediately shoot to this situation. Again, something I am working through.

 

 

 

My ex-wife and I had a mutual friend that we'd both known for years. I never thought anything of his contact with her as he was always polite and pleasant. But, I'm also good friends with his now ex-wife; her and I have known each other for 30+ years. I found out that she caught him having affairs with various women online and it ended their marriage. Apparently, my ex-wife was never involved but behind all of those polite,pleasant posts on her Facebook page was a guy who starting various online affairs with other women.

 

Like I said to preraph several times... I’m not denying that this happens. I’m saying it’s not true of EVERY male friend who asks a girl out. They are not ALWAYS trying to deceive her. So why assume that they all are?

Edited August 15, 2019 by TimmyBoy

[Foxhall]

"thats just the way I am"

 

this phrase is generally used in situations where the person is pretty much indifferent to the individual they are talking too,

 

they dont know the individual that well or have no particular desire to humor them or to get too friendly with them.

[elaine567]

I recently met up with a girl from Plenty of Fish who called me fat, mocked my dress sense, said she wasn't physically attracted to me and basically made me feel like she was doing me a favour by going out with me. Even when we kissed she said I had been "obvious" that this was what I wanted.

Then, when I told her I didn't want to go out with her again, she was utterly shocked. As far as she was concerned, she was just "being honest" when she said these things...

 

My guess. She is on the spectrum(ASD) or has some other "social disorder".

She has no insight into the fact that brutal "honesty" can be hurtful to others.

She is calling a spade a spade and if you don't like it, she has no idea why as it is the truth...

[OatsAndHall]

Like I said to preraph several times... I’m not denying that this happens. I’m saying it’s not true of EVERY male friend who asks a girl out. They are not ALWAYS trying to deceive her. So why assume that they all are?

 

 

I don't imagine they're operating under that assumption. But, experience has taught a woman that there's a strong possibility that the guy is being shady and they're not going to roll the dice on it. They've been burned on it in the past and they're just not going to deal with it.

 

 

 

There's been plenty of discussion on this thread about learning and growing. And, the women that you are describing are learning and making decisions from their past experiences. In reality, I can't blame them for not wanting to make male friends if they've had issues in the past. The risk (having some guy try to sleaze into their life by being a friend) isn't worth the reward (having a buddy they talk to here and there).