Am I interfering in their relationship? [UPDATED]

[77Embers]

Where to start!

My daughter (23) has been seeing this lad (24) for nearly 3 years.

When they first got together I did have reservations and ultimately I did express these (which didn't go over well).

This daughter is the youngest of three girls, and with the others they were always bringing various boys home at her age, but my youngest never ever did, not once. Never mentioned a guy, never (as far as I know) had anything resembling a 'proper' relationship. Until she met him, and he is objectively an exceptionally handsome lad and has just enough of that outwardly 'bad boy' charm for me to think that he was just a phase, except he wasn't.

 

I think she believes I didn't think he was good enough, and while that may have been, and still be, the case for her father (we're separated), that wasn't my concern. He just comes from such a different background, it's not that we are particularly wealthy or anything but my girls went to private boarding school, they competed in horse jumping, went to Russell Group universities.

 

He on the other hand (I found out in drips and drabs), grew up in a household where there was domestic abuse, spent time in foster care, and ended up being raised by an older half brother who then went to jail when Reggie was only 17. He spent time sleeping on friends sofas or park benches after that, before, to a degree sorting his life out and getting a job as a sports coach.

 

It was never a case that I thought he was a bad guy! He isn't. He's sweet. He seems to idolises her. He makes her laugh, all the time. She has always been a bit shy, she's always put up quite big walls with people, but he is the opposite of that, owns the room, and when she's with him I see that change in her, he brings out a much more outgoing side. My only concern as a mum is that he will never be able to give her the kind of life or security that we have given her.

 

Either way, they now have a baby boy who is 9 weeks old. So whether he is the man I would have chosen or not is irrelevant, he now will be a part of my daughter and my grandsons lives forever, and (as someone that has been through a marriage breakup and life as a single mum) I hope they will be happy together.

 

Here's the thing though:

They stayed with me for a long weekend and I just was a bit concerned. Obviously they were both besotted with my grandson, but he was just something else! They both say that he does the 'night shift' because my daughter has the babe during the days when he's at work. But the little man really doesnt sleep at all, and (I sleep badly anyway) I could just hear him up and down all night, and then he literally jumps too to do everything during the day as well. It's hard to explain, but my other daughter brought it up to be after coming over for dinner so it's definitely noticeable.

 

When I came downstairs Sunday morning he was making breakfast and his hands were shaking! He just laughed and told me he was just a bit tired. I was actually quite firm with him then had to really really push him to let me look after him for the morning and to go to sleep! He said he wants to be a good dad and I told him that he needs to look after my daughter and my grandson, and that means for a lifetime, and he won't be able to do that if he doesn't look after himself, and to let me babysit! So ultimately he agreed.

My daughter seems completely unphased though! She came down and asked where he was, when I told her, I told her to let him sleep and not wake him, she said she wouldn't, but she went upstairs and within 10 mins I could hear them chatting and laughing, and then she said that as I was babysitting they would go into town for a date.

 

It's just all a bit off! He doesn't seem himself, and he doesn't seem normal, he's a bit intense, and yet she doesn't seem to notice at all!

I am worried. Maybe it's not my place to be, but I am. He's not a bad lad but he has a troubled past and that does make him at high risk of things like anxiety or even maybe postpartum. I just think that his behaviour is a bit odd. BUT if I even try and say that to her she's just going to think that I'm attacking him, or disapproving of him. She's so protective. I don't think she'll listen!

 

Do I just keep my mouth shut or do I owe it to them to say..something, I don't know what!

[Foxhall]

the main thing is they are happy together and your daughter is happy, it would be unfair to judge him on his academic background or lack of a middle class upbringing,

 

he appears to be making a good effort to fit in and is in tune with his responsibilities, so that part looks all good,

 

the shaking thing, may be due to a certain amount of adrenaline, the whole being a Dad to a young child, fitting in with your family and so on, it may be all a bit too much at the moment.

 

I had issues with this (shaking hands) as a teenager, it came from confidence doubts I suppose and being of a slightly nervous nature,

 

one has to learn to control it though I suppose, I have overcome it gradually over time without ever needing any assistance or medication,

 

tell him to go out for a walk, but perhaps also make an effort yourself to not notice him as much if you know what I mean,

 

not saying your the problem, but he may be overly aware of his surroundings and so on and perhaps if you pay less attention to him, he might become more relaxed around you in the house and your other family too.

 

Id advise take a backseat, say nothing for the time being and see will things get more comfortable

[Mr. Lucky]

BUT if I even try and say that to her she's just going to think that I'm attacking him, or disapproving of him.

 

And, she would be right. Not sure what your issue is as he seems like a Father of the Year candidate. Give them the space they need and deserve...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Leigh 87]

You sound majorly stuck up.

 

I dropped out of school yet went back to college/ University and managed better marks than most of my peers in a difficult degree, too. For all you know, he is smarter than you are. Having brains and talent has no correlation to how affluent someone's parents were.

 

He's not an addict. He doesn't abuse her. He's a good person.

 

Not all kids with crappy upbringings turn out as criminals, you know.....it's not a sure thing that always happens.

People from troubled upbringings don't all have lower IQs and less talents or abilities than well off children and young adults.

 

Who are you to say that he doesn't have the talent to make something of himself?

 

True love is a wonderful thing. I got together with a low income earner. Had a crap upbringing. He made something of himself and now earns a 6 figure income. I love that his ability to make me laugh was the reason I chose him in the first place though.

Picking a guy for status and income bracket isn't true love. Not in the magical sense of the word. Not the kind of love that lasts or keeps a couple happily faithful over decades (we all know monogamy isn't natural for most people at the best of times...). Without true love, good luck.......

 

It should be about shared experiences, intelligence, interests and senses of humour and also chemistry. Yes, some couples who click do have similar careers and income levels and that's partially what makes them compatible and relatable to one another..

 

But you don't need a high income as a guy to connect to intelligent, respectable women..... Plenty of men on low to medium incomes are hot, intelligent and attract decent callibre women.

I am sure with support and work ethic this guy can hold a full time job. What more could she need in order to experience true love and contentment? If she is a go getter and he works in a 2 dollar shop on minimum wage for the rest of his life then sure, she will naturally drift apart on her own, without you needing to remind her of their discrepancies......

Edited August 16, 2019 by Leigh 87

[elaine567]

He works all day and the child is up all night, so he is getting no sleep whatsoever.

Daughter needs a good talking to and told to let the poor guy get some sleep.

She may be doing the day shift but this guy is doing the day shift at work and the night shift at home...

[Gaeta]

A conversation is in order yes but with your daughter. She needs to realize she is a full part of this relationship/family, she needs to start pulling her own weight into this. She's acting like this is a vacation, the poor man will get exhausted soon.

 

 

 

Horse riding and fancy schools don't teach young men how to be good husbands and fathers. This young man is resilient, he had it tough and he won't break at the first wave coming at him.

[preraph]

I'd be a bit worried about substance abuse so that he is staying up all hours. You might look around when they're gone and see if you find anything. I'd be worried about meth. Though if someone is on meth for any length of time, their teeth get very bad. It does make them jumpy. Would be nice to know if he was ever drug tested for a job.

 

It's pretty rare a man just stays up 24 hours to care for a baby, I think most women can attest to that!

 

And of course, he isn't as responsible as he's making out or they'd not have a baby yet. But that's on her too.

[Beendaredonedat]

He works all day and the child is up all night, so he is getting no sleep whatsoever.

Daughter needs a good talking to and told to let the poor guy get some sleep.

She may be doing the day shift but this guy is doing the day shift at work and the night shift at home...

 

... And there it is. ^^^

 

Op: Your daughter, it seems, is oblivious to the fact that he works during the day and that she shouldn't be doing what she's done (like waking him up to entertain her).

 

Please speak to your daughter who is sounding awfully 'Princess-like' by your own description of her.

[77Embers]

I had issues with this (shaking hands) as a teenager, it came from confidence doubts I suppose and being of a slightly nervous nature

It's not just that though. He just doesn't seem himself, he looks tired, and he seems a bit, on edge.

 

 

He's not an addict. He doesn't abuse her. He's a good person . . . Not all kids with crappy upbringings turn out as criminals, you know.....it's not a sure thing that always happens.

People from troubled upbringings don't all have lower IQs and less talents or abilities than well off children and young adults.

 

Who are you to say that he doesn't have the talent to make something of himself?

Have I said that though? I've been honest that yes I had serious reservations about him at the start, and yes that caused some tension with her. The fact her father still wont accept him has meant that whole issue has never quite been put to bed BUT I have also said that he is a good guy, treats her well, makes her happy. I do like the lad. I do wish them the best. I am old enough and wise enough to know when I was wrong, and on him, I was wrong.

 

That's not my issue. My issue is right now, I'm concerned about his well-being and his well-being impacts on her well-being.

[elaine567]

Lack of sleep

Short-term problems can include:

Lack of alertness: Even missing as little as 1.5 hours can have an impact, research shows.

 

Impaired memory: Lack of sleep can affect your ability to think and to remember and process information.

 

Relationship stress: It can make you feel moody, and you can become more likely to have conflicts with others.

 

Quality of life: You may become less likely to participate in normal daily activities or to exercise.

 

Greater likelihood for car accidents: Drowsy driving accounts for thousands of crashes, injuries and fatalities each year, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

[77Embers]

He works all day and the child is up all night, so he is getting no sleep whatsoever.

Daughter needs a good talking to and told to let the poor guy get some sleep.

She may be doing the day shift but this guy is doing the day shift at work and the night shift at home...

 

A conversation is in order yes but with your daughter. She needs to realize she is a full part of this relationship/family, she needs to start pulling her own weight into this. She's acting like this is a vacation, the poor man will get exhausted soon.

 

I don't disagree! But however I voice that to her she won't like it, she'll think I'm being anti their relationship again! Plus like I say, I don't disagree! I told her to let him sleep the other morning, but she got in bed with him and started chatting to him The thing is, they seem happy! I mean they tease each other constantly, but they do seem happy with each other, so am I over stepping the line and interfering by saying that to her

 

Horse riding and fancy schools don't teach young men how to be good husbands and fathers. This young man is resilient, he had it tough and he won't break at the first wave coming at him.

Yeah very true. It's true you certainly can't knock the boys work ethic, and for sure he clearly wants to be a good father, and a good partner.

 

 

 

Op: Your daughter, it seems, is oblivious to the fact that he works during the day and that she shouldn't be doing what she's done (like waking him up to entertain her).

Totally oblivious! I thought he should be sleeping and she thought it was okay for them to go play mini golf and eat lunch on the pier.

 

For me, he's struggling. He's not right! But she knows him far better than I, and she isn't worried....so maybe I shouldnt be worried?

 

Please speak to your daughter who is sounding awfully 'Princess-like' by your own description of her.

She isn't that though. I mean, don't get me wrong, I lived with the girl for 18 years, she can definitely have her stroppy moments But in the main, she is a very grounded down to earth girl (probably the most so of my three girls if im honest).

It's not even all her, he seems different since my grandson was born. Less laid back, more intense. If they're sat on the sofa and Dean will stir in his moses basket and he will almost jump to be there. My daughter will even offer 'I can go if you like' and he replies 'no no, i've got it'.

But he's always 'got it'!

I understand he's desperate to be a good dad, but in my eyes, the way he's acting right now, it's unsustainable.

[77Embers]

Lack of sleep

 

Greater likelihood for car accidents: Drowsy driving accounts for thousands of crashes, injuries and fatalities each year, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

 

I thought that at the weekend though, when they went out. Should he really be behind the wheel?

He drives to and from work everyday, and yes he's functioning fine......but I now how little sleep hes getting!

[Beendaredonedat]

Well, the thing is, if he keeps this up then your daughter is going to accept it as the norm and will just let him burn himself out.

 

However: He is a grown man who should be setting his own limits. It IS concerning how he is with the baby, almost manic about it, really.

 

Can you not talk kindly but matter of factly with your daughter to just let her know that you are concerned that he is going to burn himself out and that perhaps she can appreciate that working all day and then doing most of the baby care at night is going to affect his health eventually and perhaps she should could see that he rests a bit more at night than he has been?

 

Why isn't baby sleeping for longer intervals? Is he bottle or breast fed. If he's being breast fed maybe he's not getting enough? (but that's another story )

[Foxhall]

I thought that at the weekend though, when they went out. Should he really be behind the wheel?

He drives to and from work everyday, and yes he's functioning fine......but I now how little sleep hes getting!

 

 

Actually this one, I would not take a backseat on this- metaphorically or literally!

 

may be better if you do annoy him about this,

 

speaking as someone who once fell asleep at the wheel.

[77Embers]

Well, the thing is, if he keeps this up then your daughter is going to accept it as the norm and will just let him burn himself out.

Right! As an outside eye I see that. But she obviously doesn't!

 

However: He is a grown man who should be setting his own limits. It IS concerning how he is with the baby, almost manic about it, really.

But he is not setting limits! He is pushing more and more from himself.

Yeah sometimes I think I see glimpses of that! MAybe it's nothing, maybe he is just adjusting, and a bit over eager. But I've been googling (yes I know you shouldn't) and types of postnatal anxiety etc do occur in men, yes its rarer, but he is someone that comes from an abusive home, who has never had real parental figure, lacked stability in his childhood, he is statistically a prime candidate for something like that.

And I could be making a colossal mountain out of a molehill......or he could be really struggling..

 

Can you not talk kindly but matter of factly with your daughter to just let her know that you are concerned that he is going to burn himself out and that perhaps she can appreciate that working all day and then doing most of the baby care at night is going to affect his health eventually and perhaps she should could see that he rests a bit more at night than he has been?

It's so difficult though, because of the past, because we as a family weren't very accepting of him initially. She's so protective of him. I just know she'll think that it's another roundabout way of 'attacking' him, rather than actually trying to help him.

 

But If i put it out there at least it gets her thinking! But is it worth me potentially weakening the relationship i have with them currently? I just don't know what the right thing to do is!

 

Why isn't baby sleeping for longer intervals? Is he bottle or breast fed. If he's being breast fed maybe he's not getting enough? (but that's another story )

No he's not, he's on formula actually. He started off with his sleeping pattern all over the place (my daughter always said he was nocturnal the first month), which has settled down a lot now, but his sleep is just so much deeper and more restful during the day, he is just more grizzly and in and out of sleep at night. White noise helps them.

I think he's a bit like my middle daughter, she always slept the best the more there was going on around her!

[spiderowl]

It sounds to me like he is very protective of the baby. This could be natural parental instinct or something a bit more exaggerated because his own background was lacking in security and affection.

 

I think you did the right thing by suggesting he rest and look after himself so he is in better shape to look after his family.

 

This reminds me of a situation in my own extended family where the guy pretty much knocked himself out working all day, looking after the baby, and looking after his partner. His partner needed support, naturally, but was used to being a bit spoiled by her partner and so did not notice how frazzled he was getting. It was just their dynamic and nothing anyone else was going to do would stop them running things that way.

 

You could mention tactfully that the baby's safety also depends on them both having enough rest when possible. Accidents are more likely to happen when people are tired. It might be worth speaking to your daughter about him needing more rest. It doesn't sound like she is being very thoughtful on that front.

 

He sounds a good guy who has been through a lot. He probably wants his partner and child to have everything he didn't have.

[77Embers]

It sounds to me like he is very protective of the baby. This could be natural parental instinct or something a bit more exaggerated because his own background was lacking in security and affection.

 

I think you did the right thing by suggesting he rest and look after himself so he is in better shape to look after his family.

 

This reminds me of a situation in my own extended family where the guy pretty much knocked himself out working all day, looking after the baby, and looking after his partner. His partner needed support, naturally, but was used to being a bit spoiled by her partner and so did not notice how frazzled he was getting. It was just their dynamic and nothing anyone else was going to do would stop them running things that way.

 

You could mention tactfully that the baby's safety also depends on them both having enough rest when possible. Accidents are more likely to happen when people are tired. It might be worth speaking to your daughter about him needing more rest. It doesn't sound like she is being very thoughtful on that front.

 

He sounds a good guy who has been through a lot. He probably wants his partner and child to have everything he didn't have.

 

It's hard, I think because of the background, and my initial reservations about him (plus her fathers lack of acceptance even now ) that has kind of put up barriers between me and her when it comes to him, that now I feel limited on how much I can say.

 

The fact they came to stay with me at the weekend makes me incredibly happy. I would never want to let the fact that he maybe isn't what I pictured for her impact on the relationship that I have with her, and with them as a little family unit.

 

But then I also feel, and have always felt, that I am her mum, not her friend. She has her own friends, but you only get one mum. Maybe it is my duty as her mum to be a bit unpopular sometimes. Maybe this is one of those times.

 

You might be right, he might be a bit over the top because of his family background. That's not an area where I can say that I have loads of experience.

Honestly I've grown to be quite fond of the lad, I can see that they genuinely 'get on', she'll always call him her best friend and I think that's lovely. But he definitely isn't acting normal right now!

[77Embers]

I'd be a bit worried about substance abuse so that he is staying up all hours. You might look around when they're gone and see if you find anything. I'd be worried about meth. Though if someone is on meth for any length of time, their teeth get very bad. It does make them jumpy. Would be nice to know if he was ever drug tested for a job.

I'd be surprised! He doesn't even touch alcohol (he grew up in an environment filled with drugs and alcohol, he would tell you he's seen it destroy lives and that's why he doesn't drink). It's not out of the question I guess, but he's pretty anti it.

My daughter is VERY anti drugs as well, so he'd be risking a lot if he was using!

 

It's pretty rare a man just stays up 24 hours to care for a baby, I think most women can attest to that!

Haha you definitely don't need to tell me that!! I was lucky to get a couple of hours lay in on a Sunday!

I don't think my daughter even realises because all she's ever known is him doing the lions share.

 

And of course, he isn't as responsible as he's making out or they'd not have a baby yet. But that's on her too.

Well, quite. I wasn't exactly thrilled at their timing, but that's life sometimes isn't it. Of course I wouldn't be without my gorgeous little grandson, and the man he'll become one day.

 

He's not a shining beacon of responsibility though. He has a job now. They have a place to live now. He's a lot more stable than he was before she met him! But he is still a bit rough round the edges!

He got a tattoo for her after a year! The pattern of the stars in the sky the night they met, on his arm. That was hardly responsible! My marriage ended after 21 years!!

He's also got 4 words tattoo'd on his fingers 'I Am No Angel' that he got done underage :rolleyes: I told him I don't think I've ever seen anything less responsible! I mean, what a stupid stupid thing to permanently put in such a prominent place!

He's a positive lad, yes. But too much of an optimist and not enough of a realist at times, and the doubts I had about him I had for a reason, he hasn't always been a safe bet!

 

However he has definitely gone some way to proving me wrong. Theyre still together. They're still happy. He clearly cares for her!

Edited September 8, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote formatting

[vla1120]

Your daughter picked him. He obviously fulfills something in her and now he is the father of your grandchild and it sounds like he is taking fatherhood quite seriously. I think you are a bit judgmental of him, right down to the tattoos. Let them be, and be happy that your daughter chose a man who will father his child. So many of them cut and run, especially when the going gets tough. He is rising to the occasion. Good for him!!

[77Embers]

I think you are a bit judgmental of him, right down to the tattoos.

I was very judgemental of him, I'd be the first to say that. I don't think he always helps himself with what he projects but I dare say I wouldn't be the only person to be judgemental of him. I have a lot of respect for my daughter actually that she obviously sees much deeper than that.

I'm not going to lie and pretend our relationship didn't start off quite rocky but I don't dislike the boy anymore. Truth be told I have a bit of a soft spot for him these days because he might look tough but he's actually so gentle!! He likes to wind her up (but she loves it) but nevertheless he treats my daughter like she is the most important person on planet, and as a mum, what else can you really ask than that. He isn't particularly over the top but whenever i see them together he is just genuinely very sweet!

 

Let them be, and be happy that your daughter chose a man who will father his child. So many of them cut and run, especially when the going gets tough. He is rising to the occasion. Good for him!!

I know this! I know he loves her. I know he wants his son. I know that he so badly wants to be a good dad.

 

BUT somethings just not right!

[anika99]

He got a tattoo for her after a year! The pattern of the stars in the sky the night they met, on his arm.

 

What's irresponsible about that? It's not like he got her name tattooed on him in giant letters. A star pattern sounds like an easy tattoo to cover up or it could be a nice tattoo to keep even if their relationship does break up at some point. You are too judgemental. The other tattoo does sound a bit dumb but as he had it done as a minor why would you judge him for that? Lots of teenage boys make silly choices and that tattoo doesn't sound so bad that it would ruin his chances of getting a job or anything. Besides it can be covered up.

 

You haven't really explained what's not right. You said he seems shaky and intense/nervous. That can totally be caused by not getting enough sleep. As someone who suffers with insomnia I can attest to that. I've had full blown panic attacks from lack of sleep.

Edited August 21, 2019 by anika99

[77Embers]

Lots of teenage boys make silly choices and that tattoo doesn't sound so bad that it would ruin his chances of getting a job or anything. Besides it can be covered up.

Well he cant really cover it unless he wears gloves, but it's not really the anyway. I accept that my initial impression of him was wrong, and she knows that.

 

You haven't really explained what's not right. You said he seems shaky and intense/nervous. That can totally be caused by not getting enough sleep. As someone who suffers with insomnia I can attest to that. I've had full blown panic attacks from lack of sleep.

He could just be tired I guess. But if he is then to my mind something needs to change because no one can just keep going forever. If he is that tired then he's going to push himself to madness if he keeps going the way he was when I saw him.

 

It's nothing huge. It's just a lot of little things. He just doesn't seem himself.

He want's to look after the baby but the intensity with which he does is a bit full on (and at complete odds with his usual laid back character).

He seems like he's worrying a lot, he's checking on the babe all the time!

He just doesn't sit still. He sits down for 10 mins at the longest and he's never been like that before.

He seems permanently distracted, and that's not like him either, he's always been a bit 'gift of the gab' 'could sell ice to eskimos' but now his words don't seem to come as easy, he seems a bit all over the place.

 

And I know he's a new dad and none of those things are unusual.......but there's something I just can't put my finger on. He seems not himself. Plus I'm not the only one to think it.

 

The only one to not seem to notice is my daughter!!

[77Embers]

I saw them over the weekend as it was my birthday. We went to the pub as a family on the friday (they had the littlen looked after by his godparents) and it really put my mind to rest.

He was the same happy-go-lucky, life of the party, type that I had always known him to be previously.

 

Then on the Saturday, as soon as they were back with my grandson, he was totally different! Both my other daughters noticed it and commented on it to me!

 

He's wired, like full of this kind of nervy intense energy. Again over the top with my little grandson and over the top with my daughter, he doesn't seem to let her lift a finger whenever they're with baby.

 

So I spoke to her on the phone today, and casually, I tried to mention that he just seemed 'a little off'.

 

She didn't take it well.

 

Straight was I got the 'you've always had a problem with him' speech. Which I was trying to explain wasn't where i was coming from. I'm not going to hide from the fact I did initially doubt him, but that is not what this is about I was concerned.

What she said really threw me:

"You don't know him mum, but what you're saying now is worse. You're saying I don't know him"

"I live with the man, I'm in love with the man, of course I know, of course I see. You don't know him or half of what he's been through, but I do. You don't know that he suffered panic attacks, that in the early days I sat on a friends bathroom floor with him because he thinks everyone he loves leaves or gets hurt. So don't tell me I'm some princess that doesn't even see him!? But you know what, he hasn't had a single panic attack or flashback episode in the last two years! And I knew that having [baby] could stir up feelings in him again, I know what to look for. BUT he still hasn't had a single panic attack, he hasn't flickered. So yeah maybe he's a little protective, and that makes him a little tense, but he is fine, he's okay, we're okay, and we're a family, and I fed up of the rest of my family breathing down his neck and looking for him to fall"

"I'm going to marry him mum"

 

I didn't really know what to think about that.

 

I don't know if that makes me less concerned, or more concerned!

 

I also DON'T want to fall out with her, it's not worth that, but she's always been fiery. I think she is just protective of him, she kind of hung up in a huff but I imagine she'll (hopefully) be less annoyed when I next speak to her.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything, I don't know. But I feel like she fired a lot of information at me very quickly, which I'm only now starting to process.

[Beendaredonedat]

I'm wondering why you made it about him again instead of making it about your daughter and what she doesn't do when he is with baby.

[Rayce]

IMO The parent-child relationship is the most difficult one we have. It's hard but unless their is some immediate danger or threat to your daughter and grandchild then I would advise you just stay out of it all together. They are young and the baby is young... You have no idea what kind of hell their "broken" relationship can put you though. I learned the hard way... believe me.

 

I am not sure what kind of human being your daughter is but if she is anything like mine then look out. Currently my daughter has gone NC with me for being upset with her and providing feedback she did not like. When she does this it also means I have NC with my grandkids. My daughter uses them as tool to hurt and it works really well... she knows it works really well. The pain it causes me is almost unbearable. Please you do not want to get into that cycle with her. Vent here instead...

 

peace