amaysngrace Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 How old are they? Obviously too young to get an honest answer, Veronica. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Veronica73 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Well, if you're not going to answer the age thing... If you are going to act in the best interests of this girl...which in my mind is keeping as many paths available and open to her as possible so that as she develops and matures, she is able to do the things she decides she wants to do...then yeah... go for it. But from what I have seen in this thread, you are more concerned with your community and your beliefs than you are with this girl. So if that is true, then no. I don't think you should mentor her beyond providing commonsense help. Even though she reminds you of you...she isn't you. The things that happened to you and the choices you decided to make may not apply to her. And just in this thread...I get the feeling that these things could cloud your judgement. I get the feeling you care more about your beliefs and this community than you care about this girl's future, and you are conflating your experiences and personality with hers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author major_merrick Posted August 20, 2019 Author Share Posted August 20, 2019 Obviously too young to get an honest answer, Veronica. Damn. I can't even get an hour? I do happen to have a life... 17 is the answer you're looking for. 18 next spring, both of them. The girl would be a senior in high school if she hadn't dropped out. Once they marry, they are legally emancipated anyways - able to work, get health insurance, rent a place, or make any other decision. Young, but not totally kids anymore. Veronica, perhaps the girl does remind me of me...she definitely reminds my husband of me. I'd like to help her to NOT do the things I did at that age. Hell, I was already moved out and independent at her age, and I forged my ID to rent an apartment. I had to manage on my own, and the outcome was pretty bad. I knew what I was doing, but I was too stressed out to do nearly as well as I could have. The goal here is to reduce that stress for this couple, so they can focus less on just surviving and settle into their relationship and family life. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 That’s what parents are for. To help their children settle into their lives. I’d butt out of their business if I were you. You’re not her mom and she’s not you, even if she reminds your husband of you. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Veronica73 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Veronica, perhaps the girl does remind me of me...she definitely reminds my husband of me. I'd like to help her to NOT do the things I did at that age. Hell, I was already moved out and independent at her age, and I forged my ID to rent an apartment. I had to manage on my own, and the outcome was pretty bad. I knew what I was doing, but I was too stressed out to do nearly as well as I could have. The goal here is to reduce that stress for this couple, so they can focus less on just surviving and settle into their relationship and family life. Again, she isn't you. What you are talking about, to me..., seems like you are isolating her and that you care about your own beliefs and what you think is right more than you care about her and her own development and future choices. You have basically said as much. When somebody mentioned university and traveling and experiencing the world, you were basically like "that didn't work out so well for me." Those kids' brains are still developing. They should keep as many options open to them as possible for as long as time as possible. Your community's way isn't the only way. And I still feel like you care more about that than these kids' futures. But helping them deal with stress is a good thing. But again, you basically said that this is your community's way of dealing with unplanned pregnancies. Which to me, says that you care more about your community and dogma than you care about this young woman's future. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
snowcones Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Just don't turn into a Wanda Barzee. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
crispytoast Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 (edited) 17 is way too young to be marrying and having kids. I know its normal in lots of cultures and communities but I've met so many young couples who had kids and... No just no this isnt the 1950s anymore. I didn't know what the hell I wanted out of life at 17 and this is basically robbing them of so many opportunities. I got my girlfriend pregnant at 23 and we considered keeping the kids and we were so in love. But after mulling over it for weeks my girlfriend decided to get an abortion. And holy funkin hell I'm so glad we did that.. we were not meant to start a family even though in a huge way we both wanted it at the time. I think youre a cool woman merrick and I respect however you want to live but i really think this is a bad idea on so many levels. Imo she should get an abortion and run like hell. But that's just like my coastal opinion man. Edited August 20, 2019 by crispytoast 2 Link to post Share on other sites
LauraXX Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Single parenthood is a terrible choice, so unless the couple chose adoption marriage is the right thing to do. . Why is that? Link to post Share on other sites
nospam99 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 I'm going to start another thread here on GRD in order to not 'polute' this one. Topic: giving 'youth' a pass on decision making. Link to post Share on other sites
pepperbird Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 She's 17, pregnant, wants to get married and you think this should be encouraged? Single parenthood may be tough, but it's better than having two parents who, then years down the road, wish they hadn't ever gotten married and end up fighting and taking that out on each other. Why the rush to get married? They can still be in a relationship, still be parents and still be a family while they both grow up and learn a bit more about themselves. They may still get married a few years down the road when they are more emotionally mature. They may break up and be single parents or they may each find someone else. It's putting the child first to give them the best possible start in life, and that doesn't involve two parents who only got married because they had to, not because they want to. It really does sound to me like this is more about "the community" and ,I'm sorry to say, a lot of projection on your part. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 I think youre a cool woman merrick and I respect however you want to live but i really think this is a bad idea on so many levels. Imo she should get an abortion and run like hell. But that's just like my coastal opinion man. I agree with this^^^ Link to post Share on other sites
Author major_merrick Posted August 21, 2019 Author Share Posted August 21, 2019 17 is way too young to be marrying and having kids. I know its normal in lots of cultures and communities but I've met so many young couples who had kids and... No just no this isnt the 1950s anymore. Imo she should get an abortion and run like hell. But that's just like my coastal opinion man. No, it isn't the 1950's. And perhaps (on some levels) that's too bad. Since human beings are essentially alike all around the world, I wonder why some can get married and have kids at 17 or younger and do very well, but the consensus in America seems to be that it is too young? Topic for a different thread, perhaps. While my community is very very anti-abortion, I'm pro-choice myself. I wouldn't see an issue with the girl having an abortion and waiting for a while to have kids. However, the girl herself is pro choice. She wants her child. And her fiance wants to be a father. I'm glad they are pretty far into the first trimester, because I think a miscarriage would be traumatizing. Link to post Share on other sites
Veronica73 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 For what it’s worth, the main problem I have with the situation is encouraging marriage. I was an idiot at 17. I was smart for a 17 year old, but I was an idiot. If I had married the guy I was dating at 17....or 20...or 28.... Yikes. People can be great parents and not be married. I don’t see any reason to rush it. They really are kids. I just think someone that age should keep as many options open and available to them as possible. Getting married seems like a horrible idea. I’m sorry if I was harsh. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Author major_merrick Posted August 21, 2019 Author Share Posted August 21, 2019 Veronica, I just don't think you can generalize that it is inappropriate for ALL people that age. For many, perhaps. But I know many, many people outside my faith community who got married at that age and married well. One girl I went to school with dropped out at 16 and got married. Last I heard she was on pregnancy #7 with her husband and having an incredibly happy life. It is common in this part of the South to marry the person you date in high school. Many of the Hispanic immigrants in the city where we work married young, and their US-born children are doing the same. Some of my husband's employees are in their early 20's and are already married with 3 to 5 kids. Responsible, respectful people and pretty decent parents. Meanwhile I've known middle-aged people who can't manage to get their lives together. I believe if you are old enough to give birth and raise a kid, you're old enough to marry the person you're having the kid with. It isn't rocket science. The skills you learn in making a relationship work will DEFINITELY lead to better parenting. Married couples are generally more financially stable than single parents....more money = less stress. Link to post Share on other sites
Kitty Tantrum Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 I'm gonna go way against the grain on this one and say that I think you DO seem like a good candidate for this role - only caveat being that your heart needs to be in it and your head needs to be impartial. People talk about marrying young as though it is by default the worst possible decision, and I absolutely do not agree with this. Can I even COUNT the number of young women I've known who have found themselves in a similar position and chosen the more socially accepted path of foregoing marriage and doing the whole adoption/abortion/single mom, go to university, get a job as a properly atomized citizen, etc... and ended up effing miserable? No I cannot. All of the things most people will say this girl "needs" are literally just a different flavor of social, cultural, and yes even sexual indoctrination. What she actually needs as a young woman about to become a mother is for someone to help guide her into womanhood - not someone to tell her that she is too young to hack it and that she should sign up for the extended childhood option when that is NOT what SHE has chosen. I think you're qualified to do that, in my mind it's a matter of whether you are willing and adequately prepared. People who screech about teaching young women to be dependent by promoting traditional family structures... are blind to the fact that virtually every "liberated" woman, young and old, is just as dependent on someone or something else. Of all the things a person might depend on, family and community are just as valid a choice as employers, government/charity programs, federal financial aid, creditors, etc. I also get the impression that your own personal views are GENERALLY more "open-minded" if you will, than much of your community (you mention abortion, and I can't imagine that's the only thing). Based on that and other things you've mentioned in other places, I don't picture you trying to load this girl up with cultural dogma or push your own model of living on her. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
nittygritty Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 I believe if you are old enough to give birth and raise a kid, you're old enough to marry the person you're having the kid with. It isn't rocket science. The skills you learn in making a relationship work will DEFINITELY lead to better parenting. Married couples are generally more financially stable than single parents....more money = less stress. How long have you been legally married? Or rather, if you aren’t even legally married how will you be a role model or give good advice to a pregnant teenage girl on marriage and being a responsible good parent to her child? Especially one that has struggled with addiction problems? What if something is wrong with her baby and it has severe disabilities? Will you be able to help her with that? Many, if not most marriages end in divorce. Really think about it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Fluffkitty Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Veronica, I just don't think you can generalize that it is inappropriate for ALL people that age. For many, perhaps. But I know many, many people outside my faith community who got married at that age and married well. One girl I went to school with dropped out at 16 and got married. Last I heard she was on pregnancy #7 with her husband and having an incredibly happy life. It is common in this part of the South to marry the person you date in high school. Many of the Hispanic immigrants in the city where we work married young, and their US-born children are doing the same. Some of my husband's employees are in their early 20's and are already married with 3 to 5 kids. Responsible, respectful people and pretty decent parents. Meanwhile I've known middle-aged people who can't manage to get their lives together. I believe if you are old enough to give birth and raise a kid, you're old enough to marry the person you're having the kid with. It isn't rocket science. The skills you learn in making a relationship work will DEFINITELY lead to better parenting. Married couples are generally more financially stable than single parents....more money = less stress. I'm going to wade in with my east coast opinion... It appears that this girl and the boyfriend want to have the child so talk of terminating or adoption are off the table, no matter what we in a forum might think should happen. The question is should MM mentor this girl through what is going to be a trying and challenging time. I would say you should since this girl is not going to have her family to lean on during pregnancy or those trying times after. They are both young and are going to need practical advice and emotional support to get them through this. Mentor her if for nothing more than she doesn't feel alone in this. I imagine it is terrifying even if this is what she wants to do. Having said that, I agree with the majority here that 17 is way to young and that they should either end the pregnancy or adopt the child out and then go see what the world has to offer and discover who they are. Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 I'm gonna go way against the grain on this one and say that I think you DO seem like a good candidate for this role - only caveat being that your heart needs to be in it and your head needs to be impartial. Impartial? MM is following a script someone laid out for her. Even the proposed mentoring of this uneducated girl is a script someone laid out for her. How can people not see that? 8 Link to post Share on other sites
schlumpy Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 My mother was 17 when I was born. She was married at the time but today I most likely would not have been allowed to live. She would have traded my life for "growth experiences." Link to post Share on other sites
lana-banana Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 This community discourages exposure. It suggests the outside world couldn't or shouldn't be trusted, that only the community can protect them. These kinds of attitudes are devastating to anyone's health and development, especially a young person. Young people should be going out and meeting others and getting exposed to different lifestyles, different perspectives, different backgrounds. This is part of why public colleges, world travel, and living in cities are all so great---you meet more kinds of people than you ever knew existed. Yes, you're exposed to lifestyles that you wouldn't want for yourself. But you need to learn where your boundaries are. And it's important to realize that someone who seems completely different still probably has a lot in common with you. Teenagers can make good decisions. I have a few friends who married their high school sweethearts and did well for themselves. But the best decisions are typically the most informed ones. Heck, even the Amish have Rumspringa. People need the freedom to make and reject choices. Immediately shunting these kids into a cult before they've seen the world around them is utterly unethical, mandatory sister-wives and clitoral piercings aside. And no, I can't believe I just ended a sentence that way. PS: 80% of the US lives in urban areas; 30-40% of the US lives directly on or near a coast. This has nothing to do with elitism or contempt, it's just me saying that a lifestyle based on paranoia and separation is not healthy. You say your spiritual leaders claim outsiders shouldn't be trusted and that's just incredibly dangerous. Religion should be about finding community with God and recognizing our common humanity. PPS: You have indicated that members of your "community" engage in weapons training with the intent of "defending yourselves" against the US government. Given what you have mentioned about your location and the nature of your community, there is zero chance that the state and federal government are unaware of these activities, and some of the things you are engaged in could potentially be considered criminal activity. Sure, it may take years for anything to happen, but do you really want to encourage these kids to break the law? At least wait until they're eighteen so you can't be charged with inciting minors (which does indeed happen in situations like this when things go down). 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Tamfana Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 It's unethical in the extreme to not let these kids talk with adults outside this "community" and are not involved in militia/cult/antigovernment separatist training. If they decide they want to be a part of this, that should be a decision they make as adults (18+) with all the knowledge available to them. But bringing teenagers into a "community" that preaches separatism and armed combat to prepare for a violent uprising is basically brainwashing. They need exposure---public universities, other jobs, counselors, trips to foreign countries---and if they make informed decisions as adults to be a part of this, then let them. But teenagers can't make these kinds of life decisions themselves. I agree. This is a heavily armed polygamous community run by elders who are also religious figureheads. Many communities with those traits have been dangerous for children and women and have engaged in illegal activities so the elders require silence toward non-members. All I keep thinking is that there is a very fine line between mentoring and grooming or brainwashing to encourage her to join. Giving truthful neutral information is necessary for consent but it sounds as though the elders want you to persuade her to stay, not give the information for true informed consent. For instance, what happens when a woman wants to leave a husband or the community? Can a woman leave with her child any time she wants? Can a woman leave if her husband "marries" more women? The better path would be to help mend her relationship with her family. 7 Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 This is a heavily armed polygamous community run by elders who are also religious figureheads. Many communities with those traits have been dangerous for children and women. It sounds as though the elders want you to persuade her to stay, not give the information for true informed consent. The better path would be to help mend her relationship with her family. This is also my concern with the request to “mentor” these children, who are now having children. Well said. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Artdeco Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 I do not think you should mentor this girl, but I’m afraid that if you don’t do it, some other cult member will be forced to. So it makes no difference. Generally speaking, I think it’s neither appropriate nor responsible to drag minors into that cult at all. If some adult wants to join voluntarily (like yourself), fine. That’s their choice. But making inexperienced teenagers a part of that lifestyle is morally questionable, for many of the above stated reasons. Lana-banana is spot-on. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
normal person Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 It isn't rocket science. The skills you learn in making a relationship work will DEFINITELY lead to better parenting. You're assuming they'll actually make the relationship work. What happened to the judgment skills they should have learned when deciding to have unprotected, premarital sex? Why didn't they learn those? I'm terrified of what else they don't know not to do. All they had to do was not do that, and they couldn't -- "it's not rocket science." They could have easily just waited until they were mentally mature, stable, and confident in their decision and abilities, but they didn't. They used extremely poor judgment and denied their child capable parents, which is basically a life sentence of uncertainty at best, more likely one of extreme disadvantage. Even the smartest 17 year olds on the planet are not capable parents -- and they're smart enough to know that. A wise man knows he knows nothing. These kids assumed they knew. Look up the Dunning-Kruger effect. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
preraph Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Yep, you already know when a teen gets pregnant that they are too immature for marriage or they'd not have gotten pregnant. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
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