Traditional feminine vs modern woman

[alphamale]

If a man cannot handle an independent, self-sufficient woman, there are plenty of women out there who do want to be taken care of, but I definitely did not raise my daughters that way.

 

I prefer semi-independent and semi-self-sufficient women

[NuevoYorko]

Seriously, I think a sugar baby is what you're describing rather than a "traditional woman."

 

It's not traditional for a woman to focus on vanities while working to pay for her own "upkeep."

[Ruby Slippers]

I always wanted a strong, manly leader for a husband. And I am the feminine counterpart - soft, sensitive, supportive.

 

But these days it's impossible to work part-time and have any degree of stability and security. It's also difficult to find this strong provider type man who's reliable for the long haul.

 

Every time I get serious with a man, he tells me how virile I make him feel, and it's clear as day. I enjoy that ?

[chillii]

Really interesting Ruby and to others , l find this whole thread pretty interesting really.

You sound a lot like my woman , she is who she is and likes things the way she likes things and she has no qualms about that whatsoever and could not care less what anyone else does or thinks about it, which is exactly the way l am.

But she is moreso stay at home house and look after us than anyone or my ex w ever was, l mean l didn't look for that as such ha, l've never even thought of it.

My ex always worked and anyone else l've known worked.

My gf does work a bit but she'd much rather not at all, if we were younger she'd love nothing more than being a housewife , which is pretty typical of her culture.

But l must admit , it has been a bit weird to me l sort of liked part of it but the rest l had trouble with for awhile/

l sort of think it's good for a woman to be a little independent, healthy, a bit of her own life and people .

But ha, if she had her way she'd never go to work again but rather just help me in my business whereever she can and be a house wife any day.

l was hoping to meet someone setup that just had the time like l have, l never even thought of this type of thing, but it's pretty cool l must admit. Strange, well for me, my ex was never even home before 6, but it's becoming pretty cool and l don't really mind tbh.

l have to pay my house and bills whether she's here or not anyway, strangely it doesn't really cost anymore. And l don't buy take away food anymore which l use to waste a fortune on because she's always cooking and doing groceries so l actually think l'm a few 100 ahead if anything.

lt's bizarre .

 

Which brings me to my question l've been meaning to ask , after the rant haha.

l wonder what women would actually prefer these days , you know ?

Do women actually wanna work and have careers and stuff , or is that just about what's expected these days and well here anyway , the extra money is needed for a family, house , living and all. Although you can get buy on one wage because of the offsets as l'm finding out, maybe even be ahead.

Because of everything with gf l've thought a helluva a lot about all this sorta stuff lately.

 

But as l say earlier again l'm not talking about whatever op is talking about of which l'm not even sure anyway, but more just from my own personal sitch.

Sorry for the hijack op , but eh people seem to be getting into the whole idea even if negatively and you might find it interesting too as it all partly at least relates.

Edited August 26, 2019 by chillii

[Prudence V]

 

l wonder what women would actually prefer these days , you know ?

Do women actually wanna work and have careers and stuff , or is that just about what's expected these days and well here anyway , the extra money is needed for a family, house , living and all.

 

I’m sure it differs from woman to woman, but my identity is invested in my career. I’ve changed career several times in my life, so it’s not a particular career, just the one I’m focused on ATM. And I’m lucky enough to have a career I love, a job I love, and so that’s what I want to be doing.

 

TBH we could live very comfortably on just my H’s salary, so I don’t need to work for financial reasons.... but I do need to work for identity and self-fulfilment reasons. I’ve done the SAHM thing - hated it - and I’ve done the freelance thing (loved, for a while) and I’ve done the part-time thing, the portfolio thing, and pretty much every other kind of thing, but this is what feels best for me. Using my skills, my experience, my insights, and my brain... Pottering about the house all day long drives me insane!

[RecentChange]

Well I think it's worth noting that the OP has used "vulnerable" multiple times as a desirable trait in a partner.

 

Perhaps it is because my father raised me to be a "modern" woman, but vulnerable is not a position I would ever willingly put myself in. I have seen it work out poorly for generations of women.

 

I can still to this day remember how old I was, and where I was standing when my father said "kiddo, never expect a man to take care of you".

 

And I never have. I have always understood that I am responsible for myself. And that with that responsibility comes great freedom. I also understand my father said this because he loves me.

 

Being a "kept wife" just feels like being a ward of the state to me. I couldn't imagine not having my own autonomy. Of being dependant on someone else for life's necessities great and small.

 

I earn considerably more than my husband does - and what is mine is his, his is mine. I don't expect him to keep his looks up or dress sexy for me because I earn more than he does.

 

We keep ourselves up for ourselves and each other.

 

I will admit, we don't have children - which makes it MUCH easier to focus on each other, keep date nights frequent and fresh. To have time and energy to invest in ourselves and our relationship.

 

I think my husband is happy to have a partner rather than a dependent.

 

I agree with others, that the OP better be a very high earner to be able to afford the type of woman he is looking for.

 

Having grown up in an affluent area - making many connections through my equestrian circles, I would say those type of women are out there - but they aren't working 20 hours a week (perhaps volunteering that much) and their husbands often earned north of half a million a year.

 

Heck my own sister would fit the bill, her husband comes from a wealthy family, neither of them "work". But still, with not much in the way of any sort of work history - her only "security" is her husband or a good divorce attorney. She is totally dependent upon his wealth.

 

As nice as it sounds - still not a position I would want to be in.

Edited August 26, 2019 by RecentChange

[basil67]

Chillii, I'm a "traditional" wife. I worked until we had children and then I stayed home with them and kept the house, volunteered at school, took the daughter to dance classes. I'm still at home because our son has a disability and I'm a carer for him. Hubby has supported us throughout with zero complaint. However it's a highly risky proposition because I haven't been able to accumulate much in the way of retirement benefits. My resume has such a big hole in it that I could drive a truck through. If we were to break up, frankly I'd require alimony because of the position that being a SAHM/carer has put me in. Don't get me wrong, my life is good and I get time to pursue my own interests....but it's not without risk.

 

The thing which alarmed me with the OPs post is that he wants all this imaginary young woman's down time to be dedicated to making herself beautiful and anticipating his relationship and sexual needs. This doesn't describe a traditional woman, it describes a a maid in a sexy outfit. Apples and oranges.

[Veronica73]

If I was independently wealthy I wouldn’t work. I’d much rather stay home. But I don’t want to rely on a man (or anybody). Unless he makes a TON of money, enough that were we to get divorced I’d end up with enough money to live off of for the rest of my life, I’d keep working enough that I keep up my skills and keep professional contacts and all that. And so that I don’t have huge gaps in my resume.

[chillii]

Well I think it's worth noting that the OP has used "vulnerable" multiple times as a desirable trait in a partner.

 

Perhaps it is because my father raised me to be a "modern" woman, but vulnerable is not a position I would ever willingly put myself in. I have seen it work out poorly for generations of women.

 

I can still to this day remember how old I was, and where I was standing when my father said "kiddo, never expect a man to take care of you".

 

And I never have. I have always understood that I am responsible for myself. And that with that responsibility comes great freedom. I also understand my father said this because he loves me.

 

Being a "kept wife" just feels like being a ward of the state to me. I couldn't imagine not having my own autonomy. Of being dependant on someone else for life's necessities great and small.

 

I earn considerably more than my husband does - and what is mine is his, his is mine. I don't expect him to keep his looks up or dress sexy for me because I earn more than he does.

 

We keep ourselves up for ourselves and each other.

 

I will admit, we don't have children - which makes it MUCH easier to focus on each other, keep date nights frequent and fresh. To have time and energy to invest in ourselves and our relationship.

 

I think my husband is happy to have a partner rather than a dependent.

 

I agree with others, that the OP better be a very high earner to be able to afford the type of woman he is looking for.

 

Having grown up in an affluent area - making many connections through my equestrian circles, I would say those type of women are out there - but they aren't working 20 hours a week (perhaps volunteering that much) and their husbands often earned north of half a million a year.

 

Heck my own sister would fit the bill, her husband comes from a wealthy family, neither of them "work". But still, with not much in the way of any sort of work history - her only "security" is her husband or a good divorce attorney. She is totally dependent upon his wealth.

 

As nice as it sounds - still not a position I would want to be in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah see this is one thing l don't like and can't get use to, to me my gf feels as if she's vulnerable. She's not really , she owns her own place outright she worked 25yrs, and she's tough , and very very smart, and very much her own person no one tells her what to do . She doesn't need me as such, but l do still sort of have the feeling l must admit.

l mean l'm not even sure at this point , there's a few issues and l'm still mulling us over as such, and on that side of things is still a little bit of one of the problem feelings l kind of struggle with l must admit.

 

 

PS , so should l tell my daughter the same, do you think it's a good thing in general to raise her that way. ?

l doubt she'd ever depend on anyone she's a very strong girl anyway, buttttt.

l've never been quite sure of things in that way, she's just finishing school now.

Edited August 26, 2019 by chillii

[schlumpy]

As nice as it sounds - still not a position I would want to be in.

 

We live in western society and are afforded the privilege of a choice: total dependency, total independence or somewhere in between. A huge chunk of the world is not allowed that type of latitude. Tradition, cultural values, tribalism or just plain survival dictate the choice of woman in much of the world. It is not "One World" as much as the Elite scholars of our day like to proclaim and we are not "Citizens of the World." We live in a bubble and many times a bubble within multiple bubbles.

 

I don't blame those people who place their vulnerable selves in the hands of their partners trusting they won't be crushed. I don't see them as particularly naïve but I note their courage. With the right people involved it is truly a wonderful experience and creates that deep bond we all say we want to have.

 

It's a huge personal risk that can bring immense satisfaction or immense grief but it's one I wouldn't hesitate to participate in even if only once.

[Geraltt]

Unless he makes a TON of money, enough that were we to get divorced I’d end up with enough money to live off of for the rest of my life...

 

And that, my friends, is why the MGTOW movement (which, frankly, I do not support) continues to gain momentum.

[LauraXX]

Which brings me to my question l've been meaning to ask , after the rant haha.

l wonder what women would actually prefer these days , you know ?

Do women actually wanna work and have careers and stuff , or is that just about what's expected these days and well here anyway , the extra money is needed for a family, house , living and all.

 

 

Well, of course. I spent half of my life going to school & university, another 5 years doing internships and an additional apprenticeship. I love my profession and I love the industry and I certainly didn't spend that much time and effort to stay at home and do the dishes. But I think even if I wouldn't have followed that particular career path and just had a "meh" job to pay my bills... of course I'd still want to work. I hate hate hate the feeling of dependency and I want to be able to support myself & my child and pay my own pills. When I separated from my ex (father of my kid) it was such a blessing that at least I didn't have to move out (because I could affort the place by myself) and was still able to afford the same life style that I had before. And I would get so bored staying at home all day... I remember when I took a year off after I had my baby. As much as I love her, in the end I was literally counting the minutes until I could go back to work and be around adults and do something challenging & interesting during the day.

[Veronica73]

And that, my friends, is why the MGTOW movement (which, frankly, I do not support) continues to gain momentum.

 

I don’t see what is wrong about what I said. Other women can do what they want. But I think it is pretty risky for any adult to be dependent on anybody else. It’s not so easy to get a good job if you’ve been out of the workforce for years. People get divorced all the time. People die all the time. People get sick or disabled.

[Geraltt]

I don’t see what is wrong about what I said. Other women can do what they want. But I think it is pretty risky for any adult to be dependent on anybody else. It’s not so easy to get a good job if you’ve been out of the workforce for years. People get divorced all the time. People die all the time. People get sick or disabled.

 

The very fact that you can't see what's wrong here is a problem unto itself.

 

I know you meant no harm or disrespect, but the fact is that you said you would consider looking for a rich man, then if there's a divorce you'd take half his money and never have to work again.

 

It's right in the quote.

 

Is it any wonder why more and more men are simply turning their back on marriage and long-term relationships? Is it any wonder why the "modern woman" is not considered an ideal mate?

 

But perhaps that's another discussion.

[pepperbird]

op,

a couple of points. First, unless her husband is wealthy, many women who work do so because they need to help support their family. Working part time and spending the rest of their day in the kitchen, salon or spa isn't an option.

 

I was sort of like the woman you describe. I am well educated, had been strongly considering law school but then we had our daughter. As the saying goes, sometimes the best laid plans go awry. She is autistic, as is our son, and our younger daughter also had health issues. I was suddenly a stay at home mom. I did volunteer and served on the BOD for a couple of local/ regional not for profits to help keep my mind active. Even though I was a "stay at home" parent, the idea that I could have done so and still had time for the daily salon/ gym is laughable. If I wore stretch pants ( I don't own any) or yoga pants, it would have been because they are comfortable.

 

About your idea that working makes women too tired to put in their best efforts when it comes to sex with their SO, well, doesn't that go both ways? Wouldn't a man also be too tired to put in his best efforts if he's put in 50 hours at the office plus commute time? The thing is that you claim that this is happening a lot, well, I have a huge secret that women know that men don't seem to be aware of. If a woman's sexual partner isn't up to snuff, if he's selfish in bed, if he's due to be the next recipient of the "five minute man" award, the woman he's with will quickly lose any interest she may have had in putting in her best efforts.

 

Mind you, if both people in a relationship are in tune with the "traditional" view you have then that's fine. Whatever floats their boat. The women I have met who are like that have tended to be quite religious, so I don;t know if you would mesh with that aspect.

[Veronica73]

The very fact that you can't see what's wrong here is a problem unto itself.

 

I know you meant no harm or disrespect, but the fact is that you said you would consider looking for a rich man, then if there's a divorce you'd take half his money and never have to work again.

 

It's right in the quote.

 

Is it any wonder why more and more men are simply turning their back on marriage and long-term relationships? Is it any wonder why the "modern woman" is not considered an ideal mate?

 

But perhaps that's another discussion.

 

What are you talking about?!! I never said I would consider looking for a rich man. I said the only way I would ever stop working and be dependent on somebody else is if I knew I would be well-taken care of in case of divorce, death, disability, etc. And the only way I could see that happening is if I won the lottery or married a very rich man. You need better reading comprehension skills. And where did I say I’d take half of his money? Oh, yeah, that’s right- I didn’t!!

[elaine567]

l wonder what women would actually prefer these days , you know ?

 

I guess many just want to work, pay their share and have someone to share the domestic chores with i.e. true equality.

Not, which tends to happen, having to work and end up doing the majority of the home and kids stuff too.

 

There can be no generalisations, it is horses for courses, some women are born sahms and others would go literally slowly crazy if they had to be a sahm.

Some can accept "traditional" male dominance, others hate it and will never accept it.

Truth is domestic chores and bringing up kids is pretty boring, repetitive and ultimately often thankless and I guess most women now want something more interesting and productive to show for their lives.

Edited August 27, 2019 by elaine567

[chillii]

Yeah it does go both ways , we had pretty well non existent everything in our last 5yrs of marriage and it was all basically because of her damn job and hours .

 

l've got nothing against working women or careers if that's what she likes but hell yeah , if he's too busy or she's too busy , it destroys a marriage, feeling, closeness, the lot.

[Ruby Slippers]

l wonder what women would actually prefer these days , you know ?

I think different women prefer different things. Some women define themselves by their career, while for some it's basically a paycheck, and shades of gray in between.

 

Looking back, it's very easy to say what would have been the optimal experience for me - putting my primary focus at home with a family. But hindsight's 20/20.

 

I was in a relationship with a man who I believe would have been that rock-solid provider, but other aspects were missing, including a romantic connection that felt sufficient for me. I couldn't bring myself to make that compromise.

 

There's a very interesting book from the 70s called "Passages: Predictable Crises of Adult Life" that discusses another topic touched upon in this thread: though the stay-at-home mom situation is beneficial in certain ways, it's very common that men with stay-at-home wives eventually find the intellectual connection lacking, tend to get bored with them intellectually and often get entranced by accomplished working women in their sphere.

 

Because the wife's domain becomes pretty small and limited just to family goings-on, she tends to stagnate intellectually, whereas the man keeps developing in that way, and ends up feeling that his wife is basically on the level of the children, not able to contribute much to higher-level adult conversation.

 

So I'd advise any stay-at-home mom to be sure to keep yourself educated and up-to-date on important world issues so you can communicate with your husband on that level, or you risk him getting distracted by a different woman who is operating on that level.

[chillii]

Thanks Ruby , and sorry once again op if this is all sidetracking for you, not sure.

Anyway yeah l hear you Ruby and often noticed a bit of that with mum and dad.

My sisters all grew up so anti house wife and were educated to the hilt. And surprise surprise, though, 20yrs later they all turned around wanting a family and most have now.

 

My sitch , my woman is very very intelligent very well educated and as sharp as a tack, she also loves being involved in "everything". So non of that stuffs an issue that's for sure.

But l do still sometimes think it'd be much healthier for her and well , admittedly she is one very very spicey lady already but yaknow , l just sort of feel it's good for a couple to get out and about individually and have a bit more so of their own worlds to yaknow, work, hobbies, people and helps keep things fresh too.

l mean ex was gone too much and then exhausted when she was finally home and sleeping all wkend to boot. But for me somewhere in between would be ideal.

Edited August 27, 2019 by chillii

[RecentChange]

PS , so should l tell my daughter the same, do you think it's a good thing in general to raise her that way. ?

l doubt she'd ever depend on anyone she's a very strong girl anyway, buttttt.

l've never been quite sure of things in that way, she's just finishing school now.

 

My dad had this conversation with me when I was about 8 years old, and raised me in a way that made it stick.

 

You see - he saw what being dependent, what being vulnerable could do to women.

 

He saw how one could lose sight of their dreams, as they did not have the freedom to pursue them.

 

He saw how being dependent on another made them vulnerable to various types of abuse - how do you get away when you do not have the skills nor the funds to live independently?

 

He saw how being in relationships that have such an extreme disparity of power can leech into all aspects of life.

 

How can two partners have equal say, when one is dependent on the other for basic necessities? Eventually the opinions, the desires, the goals, the dreams of the one in power over shadow the subordinate's.

 

He didn't want that for me. He didn't want me to live my life as a subordinate. To be in a position where I needed permission from anyone else to live the life I desired.

 

He taught me that a man should be my partner. That we are to be equals, and that life can be much sweeter, easier, better when you have a partner at your side to face the world with.

 

I thank my lucky stars for the lessons that man has taught me. And for meeting my wonderful husband that has been my partner, through thick and thin for the last 18 years and counting (19 in October!)

 

My husband and I are emotionally vulnerable to each other. Our lives are intertwined and I could never imagine life with out him.

 

But on the other hand, we are both totally and completely capable of taking care of ourselves. We don't need each other's money, nor skills etc to survive in this world.

 

The beauty is we CHOOSE to be together, not out of necessity, but because we want to be together. Because we enhance each other's lives. We aren't staying for the kids, or because one of us couldn't afford to live on our own, or didn't have the job skills to stand on our own two feet.

 

We stay because we love each other. And I am thankful that our relationship is simple like that.

[RecentChange]

We live in western society and are afforded the privilege of a choice: total dependency, total independence or somewhere in between. A huge chunk of the world is not allowed that type of latitude. Tradition, cultural values, tribalism or just plain survival dictate the choice of woman in much of the world. It is not "One World" as much as the Elite scholars of our day like to proclaim and we are not "Citizens of the World." We live in a bubble and many times a bubble within multiple bubbles.

 

I don't blame those people who place their vulnerable selves in the hands of their partners trusting they won't be crushed. I don't see them as particularly naïve but I note their courage. With the right people involved it is truly a wonderful experience and creates that deep bond we all say we want to have.

 

It's a huge personal risk that can bring immense satisfaction or immense grief but it's one I wouldn't hesitate to participate in even if only once.

 

Of course - I am so very thankful that I was lucky enough to be born in a time and place where I have the choice to be independent. For much of the world, women do not have those choices.

 

Not sure which "Elite Scholars" say otherwise. It was certainly made clear in my sociology courses that women's role in society, the choices and opportunities lent to them vary greatly around the world.

 

I feel like I have an extremely deep bond with my husband. Its been him and I against the world for almost two decades now.

 

I am curious to know why you feel a disparity in power in the relationship would create an even deeper bond.

 

When you say you would like to experience this - I am assuming you would want to be in the position of power - not the one of vulnerability - am I wrong in that?

[schlumpy]

When you say you would like to experience this - I am assuming you would want to be in the position of power - not the one of vulnerability - am I wrong in that?

 

It has nothing to do with power unless you are the type of person where every action is weighed by that tenet.

 

Placing your heart in the hands of your SO and trusting them not to crush it is the experience I'm referring to.

[Veronica73]

So if you got married and your wife didn’t want you to work outside the home for years, and you’d be dependent on her income, assuming you aren’t independently wealthy and don’t stand to inherit a bunch of money, you’d like to be a stay at home husband?

[RecentChange]

It has nothing to do with power unless you are the type of person where every action is weighed by that tenet.

 

Placing your heart in the hands of your SO and trusting them not to crush it is the experience I'm referring to.

 

Placing your heart, or placing your future, your security, your freedom, etc?

 

Maybe it's my sociology back ground, but whether we like it or not, all social interactions are on some level affected by power dynamics.

 

Loving, giving your heart totally and completely to someone - that is a vulnerable position to put one's self in. It can be beautiful, and one of the most fulfilling experiences a human can experience. And it can also result in great pain - the whole better to have loved and lost, than never loved at all thing.

 

I am all for being emotionally vulnerable to my spouse.

 

To me, entrusting him with my heart is different than entrusting him with my antimony.

 

Let's say a spouse has a mental break, mental health issue, addiction, something causes the person who I entrusted my heart with to become abusive.

 

My heart would be broken, but I would have the ability to protect myself, to get myself out of the bad situation.

 

Now, if I didn't have the skills, nor the experience, or the funds - I may be forced to stay with the abuser, to suffer the abuse because I am a subordinate, a dependent.

 

I'll risk my heart for love. I'll conform my life around another, and live in a way that WE, the partnership is a priority.

 

But I would never be willing to hand myself over in a way that would make it litterally impossible to live without them. I am not willing to hand that much power over to another and make myself vulnerable in so many ways.

 

Some times it works great, but all one has to do is take a look at a women's shelter and understand it doesn't always pan out well.