He's really gone this time

[SSE]

Oh Bailey, you made me cry….

I know this is all on me, no blame for him. It was my doing. I just can’t think badly of him. Of people in general actually. I’m a very forgiving person, but don’t know if that’s a good thing. Would he be lying again when telling he missed me, and sending all those hearts emoji’s? Asking if I wanted to meet and asking if I would want him if he’s single? Would he lie again even if he knows what that would do to me? What that did to me in the past? Would he lie again to get affection and sex of me knowing I had such a hard time in the past? Who would do that? He can’t be that kind of a person, can he? I even told him during the chat I won’t go down that road again. He said he understood. I don’t think he would try something on me if we met, the initiative will have to come from me. And I don’t know if I can resist to kiss him if I’m honest.

I sometimes think if he would see me again, maybe he would realize that he does want to be with me. Does that sound stupid? However, since our chat I haven't heard from him anymore... I indeed vomited after chatting with him. Because I ran straight back to him. I ran straight back to my source of pain. Thinking/hoping he was sincere but somewhere realizing it's probably just a scam again and that I'll be hurt once again. That I will waste time again. Precious time. But now it feels like I would risk all of that again, just for having (the chance of ) a relationship with him. 

It indeed feels like I’m fighting a war in myself, with myself. I have a really hard time focusing on work. I’m unhappy and feel all alone. And for already such a long time. I try. I really try but I have not found anyone else that I liked as much as him. This time I’ve failed. I’m scared I will ruin my life, once again and will end up all alone. 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, SSE said:

Would he be lying again when telling he missed me, and sending all those hearts emoji’s? Asking if I wanted to meet and asking if I would want him if he’s single? Would he lie again even if he knows what that would do to me? What that did to me in the past? Would he lie again to get affection and sex of me knowing I had such a hard time in the past? Who would do that? He can’t be that kind of a person, can he? 

I sometimes think if he would see me again, maybe he would realize that he does want to be with me. Does that sound stupid?

However, since our chat I haven't heard from him anymore...

I ran straight back to my source of pain.

Of course he would lie to you again, even knowing that he has hurt you in the past. If your pain didn’t stop him from behaving in selfish and hurtful ways in the past, it’s not going to stop him now. This is the man who once told you that he enjoyed filling all your holes - you say “he can’t be that kind of person, to hurt you again when he knows that he has hurt you in the last?” Honey, you give this abuser wayyyyy too much credit. A good man doesn’t treat a woman the way he has treated you, he doesn’t say these kind of things to a woman he respects.

As to the fantasy that he would realize that he wants to be with you if he sees you again - how long did you stay with this man hoping for that before you decided that you needed to end all contact? If he didn’t make that decision before, he’s not going to do it now. He chose his wife. He has chosen his wife every single day since you saw him last. 

You have retreated to your fantasy as a coping strategy, during what is a strange and lonely and stressful time for everyone.

He may be happy to have sex with you again, if you were to agree to meet with him again. But, when he leaves to go home to his wife that will break you more than anything else. 

It’s been a long time... for all you know, he has another woman on the side which means he doesn’t need sex from you. Perhaps all he wanted was an ego boost, validation. He may not have contacted you again because just knowing that he still “has you” - thinking about him, hung up on him, wanting him, willing to meet him again for sex if he so beckons... That was probably all he really needed to hear.

[SSE]

You know what I find odd? The number I used to text him seemed to be his work phone. He still has his private phone, but uses his work phone when messaging me. I also see he’s quite a lot active on it (WhatsApp), so maybe he’s indeed doing something with another woman? I know he isn’t that close with this co-workers. I would never install WhatsApp om my work phone. I'm making assumptions, I don't know. 

I think indeed he must have had an enormous ego boost when hearing from me. And I’m making stories up again in my mind. He asked if I wanted him if he would be single. That doesn’t mean he will be single, he only got the affirmation that I still think about him after 1.5 years. But it gives me a sparkle of hope that he would ask that. Doesn't he realize that? However, he has a little family and a luxurious live.

Like you said, a good man doesn’t treat a woman the way he treated me. And he has had enough time to come after me if he really wanted me. Will seeing him one more time change his thoughts? Hmmm. He’s used to not hearing from me for 1.5 years. You could sweep me off the floor if I have to see him again leaving to her with a smile on his face like the last time (when me being in tears). So why on Earth would I want to go back and relive that? Why why why? I hate myself. 

I also struggle with feeling so unworthy in his eyes. All I ever was to him was sex. I feel so much less than his wife. She must be so great compared to me if he keeps choosing her.

Abuser? That sounds so harsh…

[BTDT2012]

38 minutes ago, SSE said:

I also struggle with feeling so unworthy in his eyes. All I ever was to him was sex. I feel so much less than his wife. She must be so great compared to me if he keeps choosing her.

 

This is so sad. Life is not a competition, and he is not the measure of your worth. Don't run back to pain.

[mark clemson]

54 minutes ago, SSE said:

Abuser? That sounds so harsh…

While many other points may indeed be true, use of that specific term sounds like a false narrative to me. It sounds overly harsh because it is.

Opening cheating with your BS's knowledge but not consent and with intent to harm them emotionally would constitute a form of abuse. We have indeed seen that in some threads around here.

Keeping the affair secret shows, in part, the intent of protecting the BS from the emotional harm of knowing about it. While somewhat misguided, because harm IS being done in some ways, that is protecting them from the emotional distress of finding out. While you can argue about the cheating and the secrecy being many negative things, if it is not done to inflict emotional pain it is not abuse. The cheating, in and of itself, is not even abuse-via-neglect because effort is being made to prevent pain to the BS.

Edited April 8, 2020 by mark clemson

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, SSE said:

Abuser? That sounds so harsh…

Just read through some of your posts to see if I could find a good quote, but at quick glance I couldn’t find what I wanted. I’m paraphrasing here, so forgive me if I accidentally misrepresent what you have shared...

What I did see on my re-read, was you saying that he pressured you to have oral sex when you were not ready and he pressured you to have unprotected sex. He continued to contact you when you told him what you wanted and asked that he end all contact because he could not give you the kind of relationship that you wanted. He belittles you, gaslights you, and blames you for everything - telling you that he doesn’t understand why you don’t have a boyfriend, that he can find another #@*! buddy if you don’t want to be with him, that you should not bring condoms if you don’t want to have sex, and that he you shouldn’t stay around if you can’t accept the fact that he is married. 

The push-pull dynamic when I re-read your posts is difficult to read, no wonder you are so darn confused. It’s extremely sad to see how he continues to re-engage and manipulate you, offering words of love his behaviour is very unloving. 

Abuser? Yes, I would say that he manipulates you well. This has been an emotionally abusive relationship.

As to the fact that his opinion matter to you, that you would base your own self worth on this man’s opinion of you... I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again... when you love yourself, nothing else matters. 

If you loved yourself, you would have told this man to keep walking the first time he said “come on, give me some oral sex, baby...”

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

Ok, considering what you're pointing out about this specific person @BaileyB I can see why you used that term. He does seem to be one of the more callous types.

[SSE]

Wow Bailey,

Almost everything you wrote was true. I was very confused with all the push and pull that happened. I’ve never felt loved by him actually except in the beginning. And that hurt a lot. All I ever wanted was for him to love me like he made me believe by always coming back to me. However, this time is on me.

I go back to an abuser. That needs to sink in for a while. Why do people do that?

I will not lie, but I have a hard time seeing him as an abuser. I can’t imagine he’s like that towards his wife. I mean, they have a relationship for almost 10 years with a child! He can’t be like that when he’s with her! For what I’ve heard, she is a strong and ambitious person who also wants to make a lot of money like him. She is a lot more wealthy than he is though. She’s a great mother. I can’t imagine he’s emotionally abusing her when looking at the photos on fb. I think he loves her.

What makes it than that people abuse some people and seem to love other people? Why abusing me? What did I do to deserve that? I was always nice to him. Does that mean I am weak that I let myself being abused? All I ever wanted was for him to love me. To see me for who I am. More than a hole.

Edited April 9, 2020 by SSE

[Amethyst68]

Do you even consider the pain you could be potentially putting his wife and children though? Are they even a consideration for you?

[SSE]

Off course I have. I had an urge to contact him for weeks before I eventually did. Thinking about what happened. Thinking about his family. But eventually I caved. 

I know I’m not a victim in this, and this is now my own doing. Like you’ve probably read, it wasn’t a good ‘relationship’ I had with him. And yet I contacted him again. This is something I need to work on because I think most women would not go back to him. I don’t have access to therapy now, so I turn here. I feel a lot of shame that I contacted him again. You can judge me all you want, but I’m trying to understand myself and the things I did. I ran back to my source of pain. That's not what a healthy person would do. 

[Difficultstuff]

I, too, took a sharp intake of breath at the word 'abuser'. It is a loaded term in many ways. But I'd certainly agree with @BaileyB that this guy's words and actions towards you constitute real abuse. I'm afraid he just sounds like a nasty piece of work. Either his wife knows that and has her own strategies to cope (being 'strong and ambitious' to keep away from it) or maybe she gets the 'nice' him because he can reserve the other side of himself for his dealings with you. Or maybe it's a bit of both. But you're the one who loses either way, and you keep going back to that.

Whether that's part of a dynamic of you going back and wanting to redeem him, yourself and the situation and make it all better in a fairy tale ending, or whether there's something in the situation that mirrors familiar past experiences that you (unconsciously) want to redeem, or whether it's both at once, you do need to recognise that that is what you're doing. Sounds like you are getting some clarity though.

People go back because it's familiar and comfortable (in the sense of something known, rather than something pleasant.) We're probably all seeking things that are relatively predictable right now. The patterns you find yourself in are just that - predictable and old and known.

Go easy on the shaming of yourself. In a way, that's also an easy thing to do - 'I'm so bad, I'm so unhealthy, what's wrong with me, I'm not the victim, it's my fault' etc, etc. But it'll keep you spinning on the spot, not getting you anywhere.

I'm guessing it's also so tough because you did feel loved 'at the beginning'. To feel we had something amazing that's now gone is really hurtful. But you know you're not in that place anymore, and that he is a 'source of pain'. I'd remind yourself of that whenever you want to pretend he's something else.

[BaileyB]

5 hours ago, SSE said:

What makes it than that people abuse some people and seem to love other people? Why abusing me? What did I do to deserve that? I was always nice to him.

Nothing you could ever do would make you “deserve” to be treated poorly.

That said, he did it because you allowed it. That’s the basic truth. You continued to come back, you gave him the power to hurt you - again, and again, and again. If you did say “stop,” he knew that you didn’t mean it because you continued to come back for more. 

You have absolutely no idea what his relationship is like with his wife. This is his character, it’s difficult to imagine that he is a different person with his wife. I would say, you have seen who he really is - it’s possible that she has not. It’s possible that he behaves this way in his other relationships because he can not behave this way at home - it would never be tolerated. Who knows, and who cares.

I will say, he does not love his wife. Engaging in an extramarital affair as callously and with as little remorse as he appears to feel - that’s not love. Again, his behaviour was very unloving to you. It is also incredibly hurtful and unloving to her. A man who truly loves a woman does not hurt her and betray her this way... 

The question you should be asking is why did you allow yourself to be used and hurt in this way? Find the answer to that question, and you will have learned some of what you needed to learn from this experience. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by BaileyB

[Allupinnit]

Please also remember that people tend to paint a very perfect picture of their lives on FB that is NOT reality.  In fact I feel like the harder they try the more miserable they actually are.

[heartwhole2]

On 4/8/2020 at 1:25 PM, mark clemson said:

While many other points may indeed be true, use of that specific term sounds like a false narrative to me. It sounds overly harsh because it is.

Opening cheating with your BS's knowledge but not consent and with intent to harm them emotionally would constitute a form of abuse. We have indeed seen that in some threads around here.

Keeping the affair secret shows, in part, the intent of protecting the BS from the emotional harm of knowing about it. While somewhat misguided, because harm IS being done in some ways, that is protecting them from the emotional distress of finding out. While you can argue about the cheating and the secrecy being many negative things, if it is not done to inflict emotional pain it is not abuse. The cheating, in and of itself, is not even abuse-via-neglect because effort is being made to prevent pain to the BS.

As a BW, I consider it abusive that my husband exposed me sexually without my knowledge or consent. We were each others' "first and onlies" and we were monogamous. I would not have consented to unprotected sex with him if I had known he was unfaithful. He took away my autonomy and agency. That is not protection; that is abuse. And of course, in order to hide and justify an affair WS engage in obfuscation, gaslighting, etc. 

OP, your MM is an unhealthy person. That has everything to do with him and nothing to do with you. You are worthy of love and respect, and his inability to give those to you doesn't change that. It's served me well in life to be very wary of people who don't share my values. When sometimes tells a little lie or brags about doing something illegal or makes a distasteful joke, etc., I just think, no thanks. I will be kind but I don't see any reason to let that person into my inner circle; there are far too many outstanding people out there for me to invite nonsense and drama. Try to look for those little tells when you meet people; when they show you who they are, believe them.

[SSE]

Hello dear people of LS,

I want to thank you all for your replies, especially Bailey, during this hard time.

I went for a walk yesterday with a friend (it’s really nice weather here for April!) and I also told her what happened. I told her it feels like I’m fighting a war in my head. I’m unhappy and I reach back to the last thing I recall that made me happy. And that was the beginning of my affair with him (which dates from the end of 2016, so almost 4 years ago. Since then I felt unhappy). I said it felt nice to hear from him again. It felt as if he had changed because he said he understood when I told him I want to meet him again, but that I can’t go back to the way things were. And then the sexual questions began. "How was the sex with my ex-boyfriend? Was his penis bigger? Do you still want me? I still get an erection from you". MM needed confirmation again, also about his penis. He even wanted to send a dick pick which he eventually didn’t do because he thought that crossed a line. And even though it was none of his business, I answered those questions. Like the old days I let him cross my boundaries again so easily and gave him his confirmation. This didn’t make me feel good.

I don’t know if he’ll actually want to meet again. Maybe he only needed the confirmation. But if he does, what do I do? If I refuse, maybe I’ll keep wondering if he really has changed and I’m potentially throwing away a happy future. But why would he have changed? Because he said he understood I can’t go back to the way the things were before? That’s my only clue he could have changed. The sex talk hasn’t changed. He wanted to know everything about my ex-boyfriend, why we broke up, how the sex was etc., but he told nothing about himself or his private life. And I was too scared to ask about it. Too scared to feel a lot of pain again. The pain of feeling not good enough. The old pattern between us still exists.

My friend went through something similar. She and her boyfriend broke up because he was unfaithful. After a while they came back together but only if he promised he wouldn’t lie again. He promised and he let her on to believe they could be a couple again. After a while she found out he had been lying and screwing around other girls. That was her breaking point. How could someone she loved so much and who knew how much she’s been hurting lie to her face again? Probably to get some sex. My friend is convinced, also due to her experience, that MM hasn’t changed. Off course he’s going to be nice and understanding now, she said. He wants to have sex with you again, especially after you said you still care for him. If you meet with him, he’ll be nice and you probably will have a great time. He’ll feed you lines of hope again but with no real actions. So you’ll want to meet a second time, a third time and before you know it, you’re hooked again. But after every date, he’ll go back to her and you’re all alone again. You’ll be in pain again and potentially lose a lot of precious time (she knows I long for a good relationship and child). I can’t take it if that would happen again honestly. Going again through that rollercoaster of pain… I think I would kill myself. I can’t let that happen.

On the other hand, if he would be honest with you and tells you he has no desire to leave his family, but is willing to have casual sex with you, you’ll have your closure, but you’ll be hurt again. He has caused you so much hurt in the past, which indeed you allowed. Are you willing to go through that pain again? Just to see if he has changed? To see he is indeed not a bad man because he’s honest with you now? If he really would have changed, he wouldn’t have asked you to meet again while he knows he won’t leave his family because he knows what you’ve been through. He wouldn’t told you he got an erection from you while chatting. He wouldn't have asked for another chance if he would be single. He should have been kind and respectful towards you as this is what you deserve. Which his wife also deserves.

And even if the miracle would happen that he would leave her. It would be very messy because they have a lot of companies together. But even if it did happen, what would you get, my friend said? A man that never took your feelings into account, they were never important to him. Do you think that will change if you’ll be the girlfriend? He had no remorse of cheating on his wife. You will be scared he will cheat on you too. He made a move on you while he was engaged and cheated on her after only two weeks of marriage. You would be scared he would run back to his family and luxurious life, after using you for some sex off course (In the past he once told me, after a fight with his wife, that she was loosing points. Like I was winning 'the competition'. It felt like I was being used as a kind of 'weapon' to eventually make his wife behave the way he wanted. How I felt about that was none of his concern. It felt like he wanted to make her see he had other options if she wouldn't behave differently). Money is a great deal to him, and because she is much more wealthy, he will lose money and his luxurious lifestyle. During discussions, he’ll probably use that against you to get his way. That he gave up so much for you that you will have to compromise (he indeed once told me I would have to give him sex every day if he gave up his life for me). He will have the power in the relationship and you would be scared. My friend thinks he wouldn’t give me the confirmation I would need to get over my fears. She thinks I will not feel loved and will not be respected. And as a bonus, I would get an angry ex and stepchild that would probably hate me. I also know my friends and family don’t like him. And because of his age, maybe he wouldn’t want another child. Is that the relationship you want, she asked me? She doesn’t think he has changed at all. People don’t change that easily.

She said that in not a single scenario she sees me happy with him. She only sees pain. Not only because he’s married, but also because of the way he treated me and his wife. That will not change she said, even if you would be the girlfriend. She also agreed with you that there has been some form of emotional abuse. She also told me that being in love is just a feeling. You can have that with another person than MM. If you met someone awesome that also gave you that feeling, would you still consider him, she asked me? I said no.

I love my dear friend. Are you guys agreeing with her? After our conversation I wondered what would be my breaking point. What would it take for me to realize that there is no happy future for me with this man? I still keep thinking he can have changed. However, at the same time I’m very scared he would use me again. The sex talk hasn’t changed. The old pattern is still there. Will I really meet with him again to see if he maybe has changed? Sometimes I think I just meet with him one more time, just one more time. 

I'm scared. Scared of being naive again. Scared of pain. Scared of wasting precious time again. And for what? For the fantasy I have that I would be happy with him, just like in the beginning of the affair. I don't know what to do dear people of LS. That fantasy is still in my head. What would it take for me to let go of that fantasy? What will be my breaking point to let go? 

[SSE]

I just vomited again. The thought of going through that pain again. I can't take that anymore, my body is telling me loud and clear. 

[BaileyB]

Listen to your friend. 

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, SSE said:

I love my dear friend. Are you guys agreeing with her? After our conversation I wondered what would be my breaking point. What would it take for me to realize that there is no happy future for me with this man?

I'm scared. Scared of being naive again. Scared of pain. Scared of wasting precious time again. And for what? For the fantasy I have that I would be happy with him, just like in the beginning of the affair. I don't know what to do dear people of LS. That fantasy is still in my head. What would it take for me to let go of that fantasy? What will be my breaking point to let go? 

Are you agreeing with her?

Would you be happy with a man who is "mostly about sex" when it comes to you?

If you have limerence for this man, which is not unlikely given that "apart" situations (such as affairs) tend to intensify it, then realize that time will heal it. Making contact genuinely impossible may also have a major impact on reducing it, especially once you can move on to more healthy relationships.

[mark clemson]

11 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

As a BW, I consider it abusive...

Heartwhole, you seem to be a kind person who genuinely takes posters best interests in mind, and not only to serve a WS-bashing agenda. Although none of us are perfect, I have little doubt that you were a great partner and what you experienced with your xH stemmed much more from his own problem views and desire to cake eat, rather than from any major issues in your marriage.

For myself, I'm a practical person in many ways and I like to work from facts and realistic views when possible. Thus I have little taste supporting what I feel are false narratives once I start to see through them.

Apologies in advance but, if your xH wore protection, he was in part protecting you from his actions. Even if he didn't, that was thoughtlessness on his part (clearly a major issue with him) rather than an intent to do you harm.

I could view it as abuse if my wife buys a series of expensive dresses when I'm short on cash. However, that doesn't make it so.

[Amethyst68]

Quote

And then the sexual questions began. "How was the sex with my ex-boyfriend? Was his penis bigger? Do you still want me? I still get an erection from you". MMneeded confirmation again, also about his penis. He even wanted to send a dick pick which he eventually didn’t do because he thought that crossed a line. And even though it was none of his business, I answered those questions. Like the old days I let him cross my boundaries again so easily and gave him his confirmation. This didn’t make me feel good

Quote

The sex talk hasn’t changed. He wanted to know everything about my ex-boyfriend, why we broke up, how the sex was etc

You really have a problem with boundaries. Do you not realise that this was a major betrayal of your ex boyfriend or does that not matter as long your MM got what he wanted? You not only gave your personal information but also that of an innocent third party who had no connection but has now been used to make your MM feel good.

 

[Amethyst68]

Quote

Apologies in advance but, if your xH wore protection, he was in part protecting you from his actions. Even if he didn't, that was thoughtlessness on his part (clearly a major issue with him) rather than an intent to do you harm

As someone who lost a family member as a result of cancer which was a direct result of such "thoughtless" can I say it's slightly more abusive than buying a number of items of clothing! 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Apologies in advance but, if your xH wore protection, he was in part protecting you from his actions. Even if he didn't, that was thoughtlessness on his part (clearly a major issue with him) rather than an intent to do you harm.

Respectfully Mark, I could not disagree more. it wasn’t thoughtlessness, it was selfishness. 

Honey, I didn’t intend to have sex with that woman and bring home a sexually transmitted disease... Let’s say he gave his wife HPV that developed into cervical cancer or he became infected with HIV... there is no excuse for a man who has sex with another woman and puts his wife’s health at risk as a result. 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

Respectfully Mark, I could not disagree more. it wasn’t thoughtlessness, it was selfishness.

Agree, Baily, it was indeed selfish. My point is about the abuse term. Being selfish, while certainly negative, is not a crime, nor is cheating, whereas abuse (within a reasonable, civilized western mindset) is. Labeling all cheaters as abusers (and hence criminals) is an effort to demonize them.

Spouses take selfish actions within marriages all the time, from not bothering to call to excessive spending, etc, etc. Cheating is a particularly egregious one, I fully agree, but it is a question of magnitude and selfish actions are not in and of themselves abuse.

[BaileyB]

It’s a fine line though Mark. If an individual is aware that they have a sexually transmitted disease (like HIV), and they have sex with another person without disclosing the disease, is a criminal offence - is it not? So while this is not the case here, it can sometime it can be criminal to engage in a sexual act that put another at risk - one is flirting with danger there. 

You and I have different definitions of what is abusive. A husband (or wife), going out and engaging in extramarital sex and coming home, lying to their spouse, and continuing to have sex as if nothing had changed in the marriage is indeed an emotionally abusive thing to do, in my very humble opinion. It is certainly not love, by my definition. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

While they can co-occur, having an affair and knowingly transmitting a sexual disease to another person are two very different things.

Respectfully, many people have many opinions about all sorts of things, but not all of them jibe well with reality.

While this is an exaggerated example, I could, theoretically, form the opinion that all BS's secretly desire to be cheated on, and thus refer to them using the c- words in postings and advocate that they be thought of in those terms and seek psychological treatment for "their problems". Of course, that's unrealistic as well as unfair to the vast, vast majority of BSs. I very much feel that refering to all WSs as "abusers" is unrealistic and unfair as well.