He's really gone this time

[LynneVicious]

I’ve read this whole thread from the beginning and I just have to comment. its going to be blunt, but kind. 
 

Girl, you need to stop this. Stop! He doesn’t love you. From what I can tell, he doesn’t even like you. He has used you for sex and he’ll do it again. The problem is that you had no prior experience with men. They are completely different than us. They do not need to be in love with you to have sex. Hell, they can have sex with someone if they hate them. Most men. Before you embark on ANY kind of relationship again (lord willing not another affair with a married man), you need to learn about men. Now, you may. It understand them, but you need to know about them. And get experience with them. No, I’m not talking about sexually. I’m talking about men and what makes them tick. 
 

He was your first sexual experience. I couldn’t possibly think of a worse scenario to lose your virginity. All this time lamenting on and on about what he did and said is keeping you in an endless loop Of despair. You need to put your big girl panties on and stop. Your man picker is all wrong. He’s an idiot. He can’t believe his dumb luck in finding a willing extra marital bedroom partner. 
 

why in the world would you want to meet him again? Did he give you any inclination that he’s going to leave his wife and run off into the sunset with you? No. 
 

it’s like you’re allergic to chocolate, but it tastes so good. Every time you have chocolate, it tastes good but then you break out in full body hives and vomit violently. But you keep eating the chocolate because it tastes good. Even though you know the pain you’ll be in from eating it. 
 

that’s what you’re doing with this mm. So stop. Find some hobbies. Read some books. Paint your house. Garden. Do everything but sitting and feeling sorry for yourself and what if’s. Don’t eat that chocolate girl. 

[BaileyB]

32 minutes ago, LynneVicious said:

Before you embark on ANY kind of relationship again (lord willing not another affair with a married man), you need to learn about men.

He was your first sexual experience. I couldn’t possibly think of a worse scenario to lose your virginity.

Agree completely. 

The problem is, when your first relationship is an abusive relationship, you think it is normal. She doesn’t have any other experiences to know that his behavior, the way this man treats women, is far from normal. 

The other problem, any other man who comes along will not possibly live up to the excitement or “high” of your first love or an extramarital affair. This has already been voiced. She has built such a fantasy about this man, nobody else could even hope to compare. She could have the kindest, nicest, sweetest man ask her out, but not recognize a healthy relationship when she finds one. It lacks excitement, he isn’t stroking her ago the way her MM did when he wanted sex. Unfortunately, she has equated love with abusive behavior. It’s hard to change this when one has no other experience. 

This relationship has done its damage, and it’s going to take a lot of work and a long time to re-wire this kind of thinking. Yes, she needs to learn more about men, because the two primary men in her life have behaved in emotionally abusive ways. But, I hope OP realizes that she will never get right with a man until she gets right with herself. I hope you were able to contact your therapist SSE. 
 

[SSE]

I was indeed able to contact my therapist. She told me she doesn't do sessions via Skype or something similar because she thinks therapy loses it's power that way. She wants to restart sessions when it's back allowed to have personal contact with eachother. No idea when that will be. She also doesn't want to make any exceptions, because if other patients would find out, she would have to have Skype sessions with them as well. It's not that she doesn't want to, she considered it, but she doesn't believe in the efficiency of therapy via Skype. 

MM called me a couple of days ago. In contrast to our previous contact, he now elaborately asked how I was doing, how my family was doing and so on. The conversation didn't last that long. He did say he was a bit shocked when I sent him that message last year with the request to leave me alone. He also said he knew he had to respect my request, so he left me alone. He wanted to respect my boundaries. He thought I didn't want to see him anymore because I had a boyfriend (not true) or because I didn't like the sex with him (huh?)... 

I find this so bizar... He knows when to respect my boundaries? It was the fifth time I asked him to leave me alone, but okay, after the fifth time he did respect my boundaries. But, I didn't want to meet anymore because of the bad sex? NO! I explicitly said in my last message to him I didn't want to meet anymore because I was hurting! It had nothing to do with another man or the bad sex (it wasn't bad btw). It seems like he (again) has forgotten what the effect of his actions were on me. Just like in the past, when I tried to break free from him and refused to meet him, he also assumed it was because I didn't like the sex... 

This is so bizar. It seems like he cannot understand emotions at all. He seems to have little empathy. It always comes down to sex. SSE doesn't want to meet anymore? Oh, guess she didn't like the sex... So MM feels insecure. Also now, when I contacted him for the first time after that period of NC, he wanted me to reassure him that I in fact did like the sex... He sounded very insecure. So strange. 

I have to add, I still struggle when the term abusive relationship is being used to describe our affair. It doesn't feel right to say that. 

[Amethyst68]

Why accept the call? You're addicted to the drama not the man.

[assertives]

Of course. I'm not surprised to hear what he said, because it was never about emotions or feelings for you. It was ALWAYS about sex. He has told you as much all.the.time. you've just simply refused to see or accept it. What I am surprised however, is that you are still not done and are going back for more hurt.

Whatever happened to wanting to find someone to settle down and start your own family? It's not going to happen with this MM you know. If you thought you are already late to the game compared to your friends and your own brother, you are not going to be any earlier or making any progress by wasting more energy and youth on this MM.

Edited April 26, 2020 by assertives

[BaileyB]

Your counsellor is missing the boat. This is a time when people need mental health supports.There have actually never been more mental health supports available because government and public health officials recognize the need. And, who know when in person visits will resume. It’s really unfortunate that she couldn’t find a way to be of service, like many other health professionals during this time...

[BaileyB]

4 hours ago, SSE said:

I have to add, I still struggle when the term abusive relationship is being used to describe our affair. It doesn't feel right to say that. 

I’m not surprised, you think this man walks on water...

[Difficultstuff]

I commented before when the words 'abuser' and 'abuse' were used. They are hard words to hear or read or accept. There's really no way to 'feel right' about recognising, at the very least, that this man has not and does not treat you with care or love or respect. The people using words like 'abusive' do that on the basis of what you have said here. It's not your fault you find yourself in this position, but it is your responsibility to do something about it. Call it what you like, but I think this man will continue to be a waste of your time and energy until you cut off completely with no hope of being in touch.

I'm also sorry you can't Skype your therapist. I think many do provide that service and would recommend looking into finding someone professional online. I know that's hard to do if you have a good relationship with the current one, though. In the meantime I guess I'd just recommend being aware of how much he is still causing you pain and confusion, and how addicted you are to that. Again, not your fault, but that's very much how you are coming across.

[lana-banana]

I actually agree this guy wasn't an abuser. He's a horrible person, full stop, but based on your accounting (I may have missed some things) he has been completely consistent from the get-go. He told you it was only about sex, that he just saw you as "holes to fill", that he didn't have any interest in you other than an easy lay, and so on. He's never given you reason to believe he even wanted to treat you like a real romantic partner. That all came from you. It may not have been an "abusive" relationship, but it was a dramatically unbalanced and unhealthy one in which he kept treating you like dirt and you kept coming back for more. 

You have to block him on every channel in every capacity starting now. It is clear you can't handle having any type of contact with this guy, and that's OK. There's no gold star for eventually having a polite conversation with someone who hurt you. But you have got to stop accepting his messages. 

[SSE]

It was a very confusing time. When he stated he only wanted to fill my holes, I thought we were through. After a couple of months, he came back stating I took everything he said too serious. That he wanted me to date other men so I would know what it's like to have been with another man. So I wouldn't leave him for another man when we would be together. Then he mentioned moving for him. And I loved the guy, so I believed him. To be dissapointed again. After that moment I went NC. 

I don't think he's some evil person. I honestly think he doesn't always understand what kind of emotional impact his words have on people. He can be very rude and sometimes he realizes it, but sometimes he doesn't. He likes rude humor. For example, he asked for a picture of me during our last converstation. Because if I didn't look okay, he wouldn't want to meet me. Rude of me, I know, he stated, but I know you like that kind of humor. I in fact do like that kind of humor, but not about my looks, that's a sensitive topic, but I know it was a joke (I didn't send a picture btw). But on other moments he can be very cruel (to me it feels cruel). Like telling me I will find my Mr. Right someday right after we had sex. Or that he also could meet some other girl and I would be all alone again (while he knew I was lonely). I don't think he said those things to hurt me deliberately or to be cruel, he was just honest I think. He seems to lack some empathy. 

But on the other hand, he knows cheating is wrong. He hides it from his wife because he contacts me with his work phone. I wonder if he hides it because he doesn't want to get caught and lose his money and child or because he knows it would hurt his wife? He knows I love him. He knows I was hurting, I told him so. And yet he came back for more. Saying confusing things so we would meet again. If you really would care about your wife's feelings, would you keep on cheating for 2.5 years? If he would care about my feelings, why did he keep coming back in the past? Sometimes I think he knows it's wrong for other people, but it's good for him, so he does it anyway. It sounds really selfish. 

But this one is on me. I did initiate the contact this time after a break of 1.5 years. I honestly don't know people of LS why I keep going back to him. It isn't logical, going back to your source of pain. I still have a hard time imagining he's such a terrible person. He's in a relationship with his wife for about 10 years and they have a child together. You can't be that horrible if you can have a relationship of 10 years with someone, can't you? You already told me he probably isn't that different when he's with her. Maybe she can handle it better? I don't know, but that's something that's keeping me stuck. I imagine he must be a great partner when he's with her. 

Sorry for the rambling, but I have no other place to turn to. I am afraid for the future. I feel all alone. 

[Lurker123]

15 minutes ago, SSE said:

. For example, he asked for a picture of me during our last converstation. Because if I didn't look okay, he wouldn't want to meet me. Rude of me, I know, he stated, but I know you like that kind of humor. I in fact do like that kind of humor, but not about my looks, that's a sensitive topic, but I know it was a joke (I didn't send a picture btw). But on other moments he can be very cruel (to me it feels cruel). Like telling me I will find my Mr. Right someday right after we had sex. Or that he also could meet some other girl and I would be all alone again (while he knew I was lonely). I don't think he said those things to hurt me deliberately or to be cruel, he was just honest I think. He seems to lack some empathy. 

I’m sorry but this made me feel sick. Just because I can’t believe someone who you care so much about would treat you this way, or say these things to you- even if it was meant to be a ‘joke’ -to suddenly come out of the woodwork and say this is truly disgusting. 
 

OP- what is your current situation with this guy? Has he ever said he is going to leave BS? I do think he is taking full advantage of you in the most awful way- he sounds like the kind of guy who likely had multiple partners and just juggles them around depending on what mood he is in. 
 

The reason he has stayed in his marriage for 10 years is because he can’t be on his own. His sorry ass needs someone to cook his dinner, wash his clothes and just generally mother him. The rest of his needs are fulfilled elsewhere, either by you or likely another AP. Does his wife know he’s had affairs? 
 

I’m sorry you’re going through this OP x

[SSE]

It's my own fault I'm going through this now, thanks for the sympathy, but I don't deserve it. 

In the beginning of the affair he told me all the time he would leave her. But he also wanted me to reassure him that I wanted him as well, because he would lose about a million if he divorced. So I really had to be sure that I wanted to be with him, because he would give up a million for me... I told him I wanted him as well, but also that you can never know that we would last as a couple. And that such an important decision should not rely on my answer. It had to be his choice.  I also imagined, if we had a fight, he would rub it into my face he lost a million because of me. After that, he did a 180 and the push and pull began. One time he wanted me, the other time I had to f*** other men, later he comes back again wanting me,... Very confusing, but when you're in love, you go back, until I reached my breaking point 1.5 years ago. 

He once told me that when he was younger, he had a new girlfriend every week and wasn't that faithful to them (player type). Before his wife, he had two other long-term relationships of about 5 years. He claims he never cheated on them. He told me I am his first affair during the relationship with his wife and also his first affair ever. Don't know if he had other affairs after me, didn't ask him. But I do know he's a smooth talker, likes  (young) female attention and likes to show off with his new car, new expensive watch etc. Some ladies like that I think. I wouldn't be surprised if there was someone else after me. Our affair was never discovered, he was very good at hiding it from his wife. Putting fake locations in the GPS when we would meet, using his work phone to contact me and those kind of things. I don't think she suspects a thing. 

He likes money. His wife has a lot of money. He likes to feel important. I remember one time he couldn't make it to a meeting because he and his wife had a meeting with some big CEO about some millions... He told that to everyone at work, everyone had to know it (instead of just saying you can't make it because of personal reasons, but that's just my opinion). Some of the money they made is the result of money laundering, so I defintely wouldn't brag about it then. Another time he told me he would like to emigrate and get himself a young, hot wife like Elon Musk. Rich guys always get the hot women, he said. He would buy a boat to relax on the ocean and open a disco, his dream. But when you would speak to him some other time, he said he had to work for another 20 years... Very confusing. 

When I contacted him after our period of NC, he told me he was very glad to hear from me again. That he often thinks about me and misses our good times, even before things started between us (we were close co-workers before the affair). He asked me if I would want him if he would be single. I said yes. We didn't have much contact after that except a few messages and a short phone call. 

I know why I contacted him again. I was and am not in a very good place. I admit I still have feelings for him, although when I'm writing this down, it's hard to understand why. I just reread the 7 pages of nasty, hurtful remarks he made (I once wrote them all down). But eventually, I still have these feelings. Even after 1.5 years. I don't understand that. My (ex)-boyfriend after MM treated me so much better, but still I had more feelings for MM. It just doensn't make any sense. 

[assertives]

5 hours ago, SSE said:

You can't be that horrible if you can have a relationship of 10 years with someone, can't you?

Oh boy. So he cheats, he lies, and now he launders money and you think he must be a good person because.. he has been in a relationship for 10 years!? Are you serious? 

You need to stop putting relationships on a pedestal. There are many wife beaters, rapists, bank robbers, serial killers and other convicted felons who have spouses. It is not a benchmark or yardstick for someone having "made it" in life or "is a good person" just because they are married for x number or years.

Anyways, doesn't matter. What everyone said on here previously still stands. You need to move on from this guy and work on yourself. Like I said previously, you need to be intentional about wanting to move on. Otherwise, you're just going to be stuck in the same spot for years and even decades to come. Don't waste more life on this MM and hating/pitying yourself. Life is short.

[BaileyB]

Well, this guy just gets better and better the more you write... not. 

You feel in love with a man who is (probably) a (serial) cheat, a man who has a preference for (young) women, a man who has basically married for money, a man who likes to flaunt his money whenever possible - money that has potentially been gained by criminal activity.

He doesn’t stay in his marriage because he is a good person, or because they have a good relationship, or for any other reason than... you’ve said it, he would lose a lot of money. He stays in his marriage because it’s in his best interest to do so and has his fun on the side. That’s probably exactly what’s happening here. 

Of course he was glad to hear from you. He thought you were gone, and now you’ve come back into his life. He didn’t even have to put any effort into gaining your attention again... you fell right into his lap. What good fortune! 

Seriously SSE, you know my opinion here. You are worth more than this. I hope you find the strength to walk away from this man and never look back. I hope you continue to work on your self esteem and your self worth. Your life will be a reflection of the choices you make for yourself - chose wisely. 

 

 

[LynneVicious]

The only reason you’re going back is because that’s what you’re choosing to do. You will get hurt more, and only you have the power to stop it. But you won’t. It’s sad and ridiculous, but you’ll only stop when you’ve had enough. 

[SSE]

I can't explain it rationally, I love the guy. I've never felt this way for anyone else, not even for my ex-boyfriend. 

Money is a great deal to him, he had gained some capital before he met her. He's not poor of his own, but she has more. One of the reasons he fell for his wife was because she's also very ambitious when it comes to money, he said. He once told me they have a capital of 50 million and he would like to have a capital of 100 million. I would think 50 million is enough, but he wants to get in the list of the top 100 most rich citizens of our country. In a way I think they need each other. She has most of the money to invest and he has a good nose for investments. I think they make each other rich this way. I don't think he only married her for that reason. I think there's also (some) love between them. Why else make a child? Why else go on holidays together? But money is an important factor in that marriage. He once told me she said to him "What would you do without me (referring to her money)?". He wasn't pleased with that, but she also knows he loves money. 

He made me feel bad about myself because I don't have that much money. Before our NC I was considering of getting a place of my own, to be away from my father and brother so I couldn't hear their nasty comments anymore. I told this to MM and also told him what my budget was. Not that much off course. His response was "You earn so little, you don't know what money is". This wasn't a joke. Even now, when he phoned me and asked how I was doing, I didn't mention anything about my recent search for an apartment of my own. He however did mention he bought a new car, full option off course. I know nothing of cars, couldn't care less, but he insisted I Googled the car so I could know how it looked like. Seemed like he needed someone to tell him he's so good and so wealthy... Seemed he needed some kind of admiration. Even this made me feel a bit less again. I know other wealthy people, but they never gave me the feeling I was less because I don't have that much money. They also never talked about their wealth. It's not because you're rich, that you're better than everyone else, aren't you? 

Before COVID I was searching again for an apartment of my own. I love my parents, but I don't have much privacy and I don't want to hear those comments anymore, especially of my father. But on the other hand, I'm scared. Scared of being all alone. Scared of being very lonely, especially during these times. It's not easy still living at home when you're my age, but at least I'm not all alone. And we don't know when the COVID days will be behind us. If they ever will. 

[Lurker123]

OP what does this guy actually bring to the table that is positive for YOU? I think you need to ask yourself that. 
 

Most MM are selfish in one way or another, most are blind to their faults and how they might be hurting OW and BS, but this guy just seems a whole other level of ****.

You sound very insecure and immature. I’m not saying that to make you feel worse- it’s an observation from your comments. I feel like you have spent a lot of your life being knocked down by the men in your life (you mention your dad and brother) and perhaps you have subconsciously sought this out in a partner. It seems like the only kind of relationship you know is someone knocking you down and making you feel like crap. You almost have settled into this and I get the feeling you don’t know you actually deserve more. Trust me you do. Out of all the stories I have read on here, this man sounds one of the worst. Please walk away and work on your self confidence and worth. You can do a million times better than this. 

[assertives]

Frankly, hearing your description of him tells me that you guys are not compatible even if he was single and available. Your goals and values in life are vastly different and almost polar opposites. Even if he does dump his wife and child for you, life with him isn't going to be good or happy either.

I think moving out to live on your own is a good step to building your own life. Choose the kind of apartment according to your own desires, whims and fancies, and budget. Don't spend too much time listening to others who doesn't give you constructive criticisms. Live your life according to your own terms. At the end of the day, as long as you do not hurt others in the process, happy or not, fulfilled or not, you only have yourself to answer to. 

Also, loneliness is not a physical thing. You can feel lonely even when surrounded with people you love and in relationships as well. Being alone and feeling lonely is not the same thing. Loneliness is a choice. You can be alone and choose not to be lonely. It's how/where you choose to invest your emotional energy at/in.

[Luna66star]

Heartbreaking to read your story and struggle.  I went thru something similar a few years ago with LD MM.  I couldn't let go either.  My mistake was thinking that texting a woman frequently with words like sweet heart, I love you every day meant a man has genuine interest in you.  He doesn't when he infrequently sees you or calls.  He's certainly not if he's married.  You have to really believe this before you can let go.  I was in fantasy land way too long.  

MM are not looking for a GF or wife.  They want desert only and that's us.  As time goes on and the years go by, you are still alone.  What does MM have? The comforts of home, children and the security.  What do we get out of it? Lonely nights, many of them.

The only way out is to do no contact with him.  After time passes, and you dont talk or see him, it will get easier.  Its the only way out of this.  Plus being busy with activities, new hobbies, meeting new people.  Do you have a co-dependence anonymous group in your area? There are online chat rooms and support groups also.

I know its hard now with the lockdown.  I still think of my MM sometimes but I don't make contact- and neither does he.  I'm glad he's finally let it go too.  

At last, peace. I wish this for you too!

 

 

 

 

[SSE]

Wow, you really think this MM sounds like one of the worst? Why? I mean, all the MM we're talking about on this forum cheat?? It's maybe a strange question, but I genuinely want to know. I have trouble seeing him like that because I think, if you can have several long term relationships and even now a marriage, you can't be that bad to life with. I don't know how he treated his ex-girlfriends and wife off course, but I just can't imagine he treated them like he treated me. On the other hand, I also can't imagine he would be a completely other person around them... 

Yesterday, I went through my notes I took during previous therapy sessions (sometimes I took notes of some of the questions she asks me to think about them for the next therapy session). One of the questions was "Why do you keep going back to someone who treated you with so little respect? (was still during the affair). Why do you go back to someone who constantly crosses your boundaries? Why do you let him keep crossing your boundaries? Why don't you get mad?". Very good questions, indeed. 

You know what's strange? I often don't even realize when I'm talking to him that he's crossing boundaries. I remember one poster here saying that it's really not okay of him to ask questions about the sex with my ex-boyfriend. And that it was really not okay of me to provide him with that info. But I only realized that later, after our chat. He's a very curious person and I'm a very open person, but I only realized later, that if I would be in his position, I wouldn't dare to ask questions about the sex with an ex-partner. I think I would say I would be happy because I know that person wanted a real relationship. But actually the sex with an ex-partner would not be my business. 

After spending so much time with him, I didn't know what "normal" behaviour is. Okay, normal is different to everyone, but I remember chatting with my girlfriends about something he said and they all went "That guy isn't normal". And I didn't even realize it anymore... I must admit, I never met anyone like him. I don't know anyone else that behaves the way he does. 

[Amethyst68]

You do realise that this is the type of MM who sits at bars discussing your sex life with his "friends" and colleagues. Other men who openly have APs, they maybe even share any photos you've sent him. Everything you've posted about him suggests he's part of that culture, and yes it does exist, disgusting as it may seem. These men compartmentalize in the extreme and really draw a line between their wives and their OW.

[heartwhole2]

Your very first post here on LS is asking whether all men are like him, and you were told no, they are not.

It breaks my heart when people don't realize that there are emotionally healthy people out there. I presume this happens when you weren't raised by particularly healthy people. 

Emotionally healthy people . . . 
*respect others as human beings, not as objects or means to an end
*are self-aware and can identify when they are engaging in damaging behaviors
*have tools for coping with stress
*have healthy boundaries
*communicate their needs
*are mature
*have positive relationships
*cultivate positive qualities like empathy, compassion, humility, and resilience
*are truthful
*value people over possessions

So no, this cheating man who is obsessed with money, who flirts with everyone in the office and says crude things, who breaks the law and brags about it, etc. etc. etc., is not a person I would spend a second getting to know.  When I meet people who things like this, I write them off. There are so many decent people in the world that the indecent don't get to waste my precious time. 

[BaileyB]

Amen, Amen, Amen. ^^^

[SSE]

Hi everyone, 

I haven't heard from MM in a while and I also didn't initiate contact myself anymore. However, at the moment I'm experiencing something else which I don't know is normal. I feel a lot of anxiety in my mind and body. I'm literally scared. It's hard focusing on work. Even though there's no contact and nothing has been mentioned recently about meeting up again, I'm scared. Scared I will be in a lot of pain again. I reread those 7 pages with nasty comments he made towards me every day. I don't want to experience that again. Scared he will string me along again.  Scared I will never have the life I dream of and that I will throw it all away while I'm still (relatively) young. But also scared he will never contact me again. Scared he doesn't want me anymore. Just like in the old days, wondering if he'll contact again or that he has grown tired of me. That was no fun way of living. The way I feel at the moment is very ambiguous, don't know if anyone recognizes this? 

I also wanted to ask you something else. When do you know when you're in a good relationship or if the relationship we're you're in, is good enough? After MM, during our period of NC, I had a boyfriend. He was nice to me (except some comments about my weight) and in general treated me good. I think he loved me, cause he kissed and hugged me all the time. But I just didn't felt the same way for him as for MM, so I broke up with him. The relationship was not bad, but I wanted to feel more. Like I did/do for MM. But I don't know if I will ever feel that way again for anyone else. I know I also don't look forward to dating again. Maybe it was a stupid idea to break up with my boyfriend? 

I also notice I have a very hard time reading other people's threads here. Some bring back a lot of memories and pain. I decided to stop reading them. Sorry that I don't post on your threads, but it's just too painfull. I wish you all the very best though and hope your pain and sadness may stop soon. 

PS My therapist told me this morning she probably will resume her appointments at the end of this month. Looking forward to that. I didn't search for another therapist because I didn't want to share my story again with someone else while I have a good connection with my current one. 

[BaileyB]

SSE, you are spiralling down that worry spiral. Now is not the time to ask the questions, to analyze the situation, to make any decisions. Now is the time to calm your mind, and seek support if needed. There are online resources and call in lines for people suffering from anxiety, particularly during this time. Don’t be afraid to reach out for help.