REAL LOVE Affair or Male Postnatal Depression? (Baby loss)

[Rainbows]

I finally managed to meet with my husband alone & I feel the question which started this thread has been answered...

 

He said when our son was born he 'hated' being around him, he couldnt even stand being in the same room as him and resented him.

I obviously cried upon hearing such definite words toward my son.

 

How can my husband think after suffering such a mental break upon our sons birth...that this affair was anything other than 'escapism'...like turning to drugs, alcohol etc.

We were trying to get help for the obvious PND we suspected he had, but he didnt wait, the OW offered a quicker escape and I feel so sad and angry about this fact.

 

He STILL will not tell me either way if the affair is ongoing.

But I am finally starting to see emotion from him and he tells me he loves me.

He said the strangest thing to me when I spoke of divorce: "Its like your trying to cut me out of your life" ???! I had to remind him he left ME!

 

But the frustrating barrier about how he doesnt believe I will ever forgive him continued and I felt I couldnt say anymore...we were getting nowhere. He just goes quiet and looks sad and its just me talking again.

He had to leave and so I saw it as a pointless meeting, I felt very down, I couldnt do anymore... As I was walking away I felt like he was pausing to say something, he hugged me and said with a lot of sincerity he was sorry, the meeting had taken him off guard and that he will just think and maybe we can meet again like that and he rubbed my arm...

Yet again a conflicting, confusing sign as I thought the conversation had gotten us nowhere, even though I could see emotion in him, it was pointless toward taking steps to save the marriage (he seems to think he has been trying) and then he says that, he could have just let me go...

 

It was our daughters birthday that weekend so the whole purpose of that meeting was to start afresh and have something positive to look forward to...& it was also the OW's birthday so it was quite a significant time.

 

I invited him to come and celebrate our daughters birthday, he spent 3hrs with us and had to go to his mums. I said I was obviously very paranoid as to if he was really going to see the OW, he swore to me he was being honest and I believed he was.

 

Id asked him to help me prepare for our daughters party the next morning and he said he'd try.

I actually had a migraine attack and lost my vision so I really desperately needed him but he was ignoring my msgs and calls, until noon - when he said he'd gotten depressed and drunk the night before.

 

I invited him after the party to open her presents with us and literally had to beg him, as he was offended that I had questioned if he was telling the truth about where he'd been...yet he couldnt prove it to me as Id requested.

So technically I dont know if he was with the OW.

He did come to open presents with us for a couple of hours.

 

So, I invited him for tea the next night - he said yes.

He cancelled at teatime saying he was tired.

 

I sent him a message saying since our face to face conversation I have to know if the affair is ongoing or not, its the least I deserve - that I loved him and would wait forever for him, but I cant be second best to another woman, I need to know if he wants to save our family or this situation has to change.

Ive not received any response.

Im going NC now (SOOOO difficult for me) and hope he takes this time for true reflection.

 

It will have been a year now since he started the affair.

9/10 months since I found out/he left.

5 Months since the OW ended her relationship with her fiance.

 

It will also soon be our stillborn daughters birthday along with my birthday, so again more emotional milestones....he said he cant even bare to think about Christmas.

And yet it could be so different if he just gave us a chance!

 

The solicitor I saw was quite shocked."What a stupid man. He will regret this" I will divorce him if he doesnt show any signs of rectifying this mess.

 

I cannot however help the fact, no matter what people say, I love him so so much, I think about him 24/7 - no matter what Im doing, no matter whom im with, no matter the distraction. He was my best friend and I cannot get over that.

It feels like a lifetime ago he was with us now, and its really hurting.

I cant 100% enjoy my time with my children even, as I wish he was here enjoying their lives with me.

 

Its so difficult to just NOT know what is going on with the affair - HAS he left me for OW or is he in a state of genuine despair/regret/shame etc...

Edited November 1, 2019 by Rainbows

[BaileyB]

Its so difficult to just NOT know what is going on with the affair - HAS he left me for OW or is he in a state of genuine despair/regret/shame etc...

 

I think it is both.

[schlumpy]

It's your dance Rainbows and you get to pick the music.

[Mr. Lucky]

HAS he left me for OW or is he in a state of genuine despair/regret/shame etc...

 

Rainbow, he cheated on you and left, bailing on his marriage and family. Even if the affair was over (like Bailey, I'm guessing "no"), he's found his current version of single life to be more tolerable than the option with you and the kids you continue to offer him.

 

Even if she's around, the OW isn't keeping him away. At some point, you need to accept his choice and move towards the life in front of you.

 

What's the next step with your solicitor?

 

Mr. Lucky

[BTDT2012]

I understand that it hurts, but his actions tell you all that you need to know. Has he spent any time with you and the children that wasn't initiated by you? If you are unwilling to proceed with divorce now, you should seriously consider only having the conversation that are necessary for the children and finance. Leave when he has his time with the children. You can't make him want to be a family.

[BaileyB]

You can't make him want to be a family.

 

No. You also can not heal him. Love does not conquer all, unfortunately.

 

You say that you will love him forever... and yet, if he came back to you tomorrow, it doesn’t change the fact that he has abandoned your family.

 

I’m also curious to hear what the lawyer has said. That seems to be your best, and only way forward...

[Rainbows]

The solicitor thinks he's had a breakdown and agreed that it doesnt seem like he wants to divorce/end our marriage and with such a young family etc as I also dont want to divorce, it doesnt seem like something that should be rushed whilst I feel this way, esp regarding the financial side.

But she also suggested initiating divorce is sometimes the only way for someone to 'wake up' and see their future reality.

Not many men has done what my husband has in regards to leaving all the money to me and the children (aside from his rent etc) even if it is from guilt.

I was quite surprised at how cut throat she saw this situation, that he could loose a lot more than he and I thought.

But I appreciated that she advised me on a personal level also, that as soon as I stop 'chasing' him, he may turn around and realise what he's loosing.

 

I am now at the point with him that he needs to communicate or I will divorce. But as a few people have advised me, Ive never really gone NC with him.

Ive communicated clearly to him now, he's had the chance to tell me that he wants a divorce - and he hasnt, he's had the chance to tell me he's with the OW - and he hasnt.

So now is the time for NC.

 

Im just conscious of the emotional milestones upcoming as I would normally - admittedly - initiate being together for these.

And it hurts, and I love him, and I dont understand what the hell is keeping him away.

A 'secret'/shamed relationship (if the OW is still around)? Over his children? Something is seriously wrong. He told me he is seeing a counsellor, but if he is re-writing history to them im worried it may be a pointless exercise.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Rainbows

[Rainbows]

Ive been really struggling, and I will go and see a Dr..

(I did have an appointment but I was so upset that particular morning Id forgotten about the actual appointment and missed it!)

 

The children being the ages they are is so difficult and I feel so angry that he has just left us like this.

He is acting like such a child!

I read articles at night to try find some peace...the general opinion of a man whom has done what my husband has is that of ultimate 'scumbag', affair or not, he's upped and left his wife rather than try and solve a problem...so how is it his family are enabling his behavior, I feel so frustrated, how could anyone resist kicking his ass back to his family?

 

'This week' im swaying toward the belief that the affair ISNT ongoing.

That our counselor was perhaps right when she predicted that this wasnt about the OW but moreso his birth family holding him back.

This is a 40 year old man with his own family? Ive suddenly found myself very angry.

 

You'd loose respect for a man that had an affair, that failed to communicate any problems within his marriage and instead chose to ran away...and you certainly would loose respect for a man that then runs to his mothers shelter! (A mother he spent the majority of our married life slating to everyone in his estrangement from...)

[schlumpy]

Keep posting Rainbows. I'm reading with the hope that something very soon will break your way. The stress of your situation will take physical form and the anger you feel will only add to your stress.

 

A new year is coming up. Promise to make it a better one.

[Mr. Lucky]

but moreso his birth family holding him back.

 

Again Rainbows, this isn't about his birth family. Just as this can't be blamed on the OW, his mother or other family members can't force him to leave his wife and children.

 

This is about him and his choices. For his own reasons, he's chosen separation over marriage. Heartbreaking in many ways, but out of your control.

 

That's why many here have been counseling you to focus on and look after yourself. I get the preoccupation with his motivations and mindset, but as you come up on a year alone you'll have to accept the cards as dealt. Anything else becomes counter-productive and, as schlumpy pointed out, borders on self-harm.

 

Continue to work this through with your therapist...

 

Mr. Lucky

[spiritedaway2003]

Rainbows, I know it's probably frustrating to hear it over and over again, but it's not about the OW or his birth family. It's really about your husband and the choices he is making. No one put a gun to his head. HE made a conscious choice to leave his marriage and family. He might have his own reasons. Maybe he had been unhappy and he had been hiding all the stress and trauma and loss and failure for a long time, to be strong for you and the family. Maybe he just can't do it anymore. I don't know. No one really knows except for him.

 

What we DO know that that he had walked out of his marriage and family. It's hard to accept this reality when you have such young children and you obviously still love him, but it's really not about the OW or his birth family. HE made the choice. I guess it's a matter of how much time you want to give it before accepting it... and that's OK. We all need time to get to acceptance. It might be hard for you to see through all the pain right now, but understanding that HE made a decision to leave may pave a better path to your healing.

 

Be kind and gentle to yourself. Focus on you and your kids. Keep posting here, and continue to talk things through with your therapist.

[Rainbows]

Yes I read an article last night which kind of hit home with this fact.

If someones words and actions are not matching...go with their actions and not their words.

Its just difficult because I feel I know him (obviously not better than himself) and when I look into his eyes I feel he doesnt know what he's doing and I feel like I shouldnt give up on 'trying' to help 'him'.

 

I try to keep my friends in the loop, to help me along the way and sometimes they say "Thats positive, you should feel positive he has done this or that"...

He gives these little signs toward us (he says he is trying!) and that is what is difficult, to fear that 'I' would be the one making a mistake in giving up, as ironic as that sounds.

He doesnt seem happy.

And if this is due to the fact he is wrapped in guilt/shame etc the only person whom can help him other than himself, is me.

BUT I have done all I can. I know I need to step back...but the emotional milestones have made timing difficult.

 

Re his family, they caused problems from day 1, literally.

I witnessed how he could never stand up to them, I saw what their pressure did to him and yet he couldnt stand up to them, which is why I fear their presence back in his life is sadly not helping - again though, nothing I can do about that.

 

Ive never wanted to hear it before, I preferred the limbo than the fear, but in some ways now, I am finding it incredibly frustrating as to 'why' he cannot say to me straight 'I dont want to work on our marriage'? If he has truly given up on a future together.

But again we're back at the station where im projecting onto him instead of what I can control...its a tough one.

 

Our children have been very sick recently, had to take our son to hospital, I asked him for his help - he said he had gone away with his mum in her caravan as he 'needed to get away'...I figured upon hearing our children were sick and I needed help that he'd be driving back asap.

He hasnt, not even to visit them, whilst he is literally around the corner at his mums house yet again.

Making this situation hard to deal with as it is an abandonment of both marriage and family...it does point more to a breakdown etc.

 

I am going to try and cut communication again. As frustrating as a complete lack of adult conversation about something so serious is, but he knows where I stand, he can come to me.

 

But how do I manage our children? I have always been the one to 'contact' him and suggest days out etc, because I want him to experience it, for these memories he will never get back and our children will never be able to re-imagine them if he is not present etc...to stop initiating this would feel like I was letting my children down as they arent old enough to include him themselves...

Luckily there are no milestones now until Christmas/our daughters first visit to Santa (which he doesnt know about yet)

I dont know where the line lies with children so young and his stonewalling.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Rainbows

[pepperbird]

op,

What sort of a man, when hearing his kids are ill, doesn't make them his first priority. No matter how thy feel about their wife, they would drop everything and be there as soon a possible. Yours? He can't because he's going camping?

 

Your kids are small, and right now, they probably don't notice he's gone, but as they grow up, it's going to start to really hurt them. How would you feel with a father who couldn't even put you ahead of himself for long enough to make sure you are okay?

 

 

 

Every time the door gets open , even a tiny bit, he chooses to put himself first and not his kids. To me, he hasn't earned the title of "dad". Let him go, stop pursuing him and hopefully, he'll get his head on straight. If not, don't keep giving him chances to hurt you and your children any more than he already has. He's just not worth it. Some people just don't have it in them to be a parent.

[Zinging]

I have been a silent reader here for long. And there is no story on LS that pains me as much as this one...

 

There have been many wise members giving you advise, and I believe you have a need to keep 'trying', hoping you are able to get him to understand the situation, empathise with your plight, eventually have a change of heart etc.

 

Taking into consideration the 'lover' in you, I can vaguely empathise with this sentiment (not condone, only try to empathise)...

However, as a 'mother', I'd say that you are not evaluating how this approach hurts your children's future and perhaps YOUR chance at a healthy relationship with them tomorrow.

 

For the first 10-15 years, my mother always put society's/relatives' views before my needs, and it really messed with my priorities. She's changed now, but what's done is done, and I still battle with not associating my self-worth with what x/y/z relative dictates. And yes, I find myself blaming her for it. I mean this in the kindest way, but if my mother was doing what you're doing now - showing that someone who abandoned me for no fault of mine, mattered so much to her - it would've ended up affecting my self-worth even more. And perhaps, formed a permanent rift. There is still time. You can avoid this.

 

Because your children see you prioritising a man (he is no longer their father) over them, it will chip away at the innate love they have for you. Every instance that your actions show you pining for a man who abandoned them, you are unwittingly knocking their confidence off by a notch. Don't ruin what you have/will have with your kids by giving him such power over you. Expectation breeds resentment. Don't expect a man who's repeatedly shown he doesn't care to magically start caring when one of your kids is ill, and you will not be disappointed. (A few quarter-hearted attempt from him do not count. Even strangers in a store would do more to help you in such times!)

 

You can still offer support during times of mental health crisis, if and when he needed support, by being civil. Don't have to be a wife and a martyr to do that, because you'll end up martyring a lot more than just your emotion and time.

Basically, in your to desperate want to restore the family unit, you're going to end up putting their sense of self-worth at risk. Please don't do that. They've lost the opportunity to have 1 stable parent, don't make it 2. Granted, you may put on a stoic facade in front of them, but they observe actions. By standing up for yourself, respecting your worth, while being nothing more than civil towards the man who offered a few sperm cells to bring them into this world, you show them what it is to command respect while still being human.

 

Your kids will then have a much healthier view of what's 'normal' if they see you loving yourself. It'll teach them to love themselves and to admire you. And then you watch how your children will be your fiercest warriors, defending you and being by your side... all this, while they grow up emotionally stronger and healthier than ever.

 

 

 

Really hoping for a more positive update from your end.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Zinging

[BaileyB]

op,

What sort of a man, when hearing his kids are ill, doesn't make them his first priority. No matter how thy feel about their wife, they would drop everything and be there as soon a possible.

 

This is the question... What kind of a man does this? A very selfish man. Not a man that you want to rely upon for anything.

 

If my neighbour came knocking on my door and said “my kids are really sick, I need your help.” I would drop everything to say “what do you need?” And that is my neighbour, not my own wife and children.

 

OP, zinging is right. This isn’t about you. It’s not about your husband. Right now, you are delivering your children to a man who does not want them because you don’t want HIM to miss out on their lives... Very sadly, he doesn’t seem to care. What you are doing will be very damaging to your children as they grow. Protect your children - even if it is from their father.

Edited November 12, 2019 by BaileyB

[Rainbows]

Zinging, I haddnt ever thought about it in this way...as I say in my final paragraph of my last post; I felt I was helping my childrens memories by making sure their father was there for those times etc...Ive tried to ensure he was in the photos, so they dont ever turn to me and ask "Where was Daddy".

Sadly my daughter asks for him often and it breaks me every time she does.

 

Posters mentioning how strangers would offer more help, I exampled this to him;

I told him how whilst I was sat in the hospital waiting room, I was the only single parent, I was desperately trying to keep each child entertained, desperately trying to stop my son from crying the ward down whilst everyone starred at us, I wanted to just run out and cry because it felt SO difficult and I felt so alone.

A woman had glanced over a few times and then started to just help me, by talking to my little girl and trying to play with her whilst I tried to console my son.

Members of the public are able to see my struggle, its written all over my face some days and I can see them looking whilst I literally juggle my chores.

And I know its effecting whom I am as a mother and that makes me fall even deeper into a sadness, I try to start each day afresh.

 

If this fails, at least I hope I showed my children that I took my vows and my loyalty seriously, I tried my very very best to save their family unit.

But yes, I would never expect my daughter to put up with this from a man and I would never allow my son to act this way toward his wife/own family...so I completely understand the lack of respect im exampling, and yet I havent been able to attribute these morals for my own self.

 

Ive done all I can now.

There are so many details that need talking through between us, but I am not going to contact him, things can remain a mess until he makes contact.

[vla1120]

I would never expect my daughter to put up with this from a man and I would never allow my son to act this way toward his wife/own family...so I completely understand the lack of respect im exampling, and yet I havent been able to attribute these morals for my own self.

 

This says it all, along with the fact that a complete stranger pitched in and helped you by entertaining your daughter in the waiting room while you attended your son.

 

You no longer have a husband. They no longer have a father. You must come to that realization and NOW put your children (and yourself) first and foremost. They would be better off without him coming and going from their lives, especially if his involvement is forced. Make them feel safe and secure in the knowledge that they have YOU as a stable, reliable, loving, nurturing parent.

 

You said in a previous post that you think about him 24/7. What are you doing to take care of yourself? I hope you have an opportunity to leave your children with your family members periodically and taking some time for yourself.

 

You might be dreading the holidays. Instead, why don't you come up with some new Christmas traditions you can share with your children?

 

It's time to focus ALL of your energy on your family of three, now.

[Zinging]

Zinging, I haddnt ever thought about it in this way...as I say in my final paragraph of my last post; I felt I was helping my childrens memories by making sure their father was there for those times etc...Ive tried to ensure he was in the photos, so they dont ever turn to me and ask "Where was Daddy".

Sadly my daughter asks for him often and it breaks me every time she does.

<SNIP>

 

If my words have helped bring a little ray of warmth in your life, I'll type passages for you... every word you type indicates what a lovely woman you are. You deserve to be loved - first and foremost by yourself! (Repeat this mantra to yourself everyday!)

 

And trust me when I tell you that reading your last para made me glad... most people will understand your attempts to try for a year to salvage something that'd lasted for 16. That said, most will not consider inaction from you hereafter ideal either (including your kids). All I'm trying is to nudge you to take the next step forward as damage control for your kids' future.

 

Please bear in mind, I do understand he has mental health issues, and I recognise he does need the appropriate treatment for it. But, that's why we have therapists, counsellors and even pharmaceutical therapy for it. If he approached you with these issues, seeking help, it would have been a different marriage altogether - sadly, it wasn't meant to be.

He doesn't want to be rescued. You tried rescuing him over and over, got hurt in the process. But, it's now time you nurse yourself so you can be fit and fine for your kids before they get hurt too.

 

Remember this...

A sleeping man can be awoken, not one who has his eyelids willingly closed.

Edited November 13, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[BaileyB]

If this fails, at least I hope I showed my children that I took my vows and my loyalty seriously, I tried my very very best to save their family unit.

 

Rainbows, nobody could ever argue that you did not respect your wedding vows. Nobody could ever say that you didn’t do everything you could to keep your family together.

 

But when your partner chooses to walk away, there is NOTHING you can do.

 

While your attempts to include their father in your children’s lives are understandable and admirable, it reminds me of a study I once read on attachment. The children who had the best long term outcome were those who had a healthy attachment to a parent. And interestingly, the children who did the worst were not those who had a negligent or absent parent - rather, the children who had the worst long term outcomes were those who had an inconsistent attachment to their parents ie. their parents would be around sometimes, but not all the time or they would be attentive and loving sometimes, but not every time. It seems to support the thought that your children would be better with no father in their lives, than a father who is forced to be present but not really engaged. It would seem that that causes more damage, than having an absent parent. Just food for thought...

[Veronica73]

I think this is the most heartbreaking story I’ve read on this forum.

 

I think you need to let him go. He is being absolutely AWFUL. As others have pointed out, strangers would have stepped up and helped you while your child was in the hospital more than he did. Even if he is having some sort of mental health crisis, there is only so much you can do. And you have done more, stuck by him longer than most anyone would do. I think you need to let him go and move on. Say he really is having a mental health crisis. Once he gets back to his normal, kind self (if that even exists any longer) he will see how awful he was and will fight like hell to get you and his children back. And he wouldn’t blame you for moving on. Because it would be glaringly obvious how horrible he treated all of you.

[Rainbows]

vla; Re thinking of him 24/7 - its regardless of whatever im doing, I can have a fun filled day with the children, I have to forceably try to not think about him or become sad.

 

It really really hurts to be ignored, especially when you dont know 'exactly' why - whilst it happens periodically. It is a form of torture and one where you end up blaming yourself for something, because your brain is desperately trying to figure out where the pains coming from...

He still has not responded to me, I think this is the longest period of being ignored and im scared, im scared I dont know what I did or said, im scared its going to be blamed on me..

 

What makes this feel worse is that I can tell this story to everyone I meet, even strangers - I KNOW that no one could ever justify his side of the story, even admitting all my faults etc, theres no excuse for any of this...and yet the fact that his entire family seem to be condoning him and the 'thought' of them (& the OW past or present) talking about me, again it hurts and it feels like its on 'me'.

 

I need some sort of specific targeted counseling which im hoping to seek soon..in the meantime I just need to keep afloat.

[schlumpy]

In times of stress you truly come face-to-face with yourself. Your inner strength becomes a known quantity. The beliefs you have, your world view and what you believe about other people is challenged. You are no longer the same person you were just six months ago although you're clinging to that person. It's a slow process that you will only be able to appreciate in the rearview mirror.

[pepperbird]

the human brain is amazing organ, but it has it's limits. we want to make sense of our world and understand it, but sometimes, there are situations that just don't make sense. When that happens. the brain often ends up making its final, desperate play to understand a situation.

 

 

We blame ourselves.

[Prudence V]

yet the fact that his entire family seem to be condoning him and the 'thought' of them (& the OW past or present) talking about me, again it hurts and it feels like its on 'me'.

 

Rainbows, they’re probably “condoning” his behaviour because of their history - if they’d been estranged, they’re probably just happy to “have him back” and not wanting to jeopardise that. And yes, they may see you and your kids as a threat to that - that if he returns, he’ll leave them again. So they probably are trying to keep him from you.

 

And he’s letting them.

 

He may be having a breakdown, or some mental health issues, but unless he’s willing to get (professional) help, this won’t change. It will just be the new normal. You need to start putting yourself and your kids ahead of him. This childhood of theirs, you won’t get it back. Don’t squander it on him. Not at the cost to you, your own mental health, and your kids’ security.

[PinkElephants]

There's a couple I know who are going down a similar road as you. There was infertility, multiple miscarriages and a lot of stress. The wife was able to make it past the previous miscarriage point for them; the husband turned 40 and started an affair.

 

He was texting the OW while his wife was in labor. As she and their newborn lay resting he and the OW were finalizing details for the next boink-fest.

 

He got caught and his wife left so he figured "my marriage is over; I might as well keep banging the OW." The BW came back and caught him again. He fully expected to be thrown out but wasn't and he didn't want to be that guy who abandoned his family so he stayed physically but not mentally.

 

The BW loves him and desperately wants him to love her too. She has no confirmation that the affair is over. She wants to save her family and is hanging on to every shred of hope whether real or imagined. She wants to assert boundaries but can't because he'll trample all over them and then whine about how she's ruining his fun. She wants to give consequences but he's totally cool with being thrown out so she's powerless.

 

She's admitted that she'll sob on the bathroom floor in view of him in the hopes that he'll see the devastation that he's caused, vow to fight for her and scoop her off the floor into his arms. What he actually does is walk away. He'll go to the living room and wait for her to come out; if she comes down upset then he'll leave the house. If she comes down calm then he expects the conversation to be over. He IS NOT INTERESTED in her pain.

 

He doesn't touch her or offer any physical reassurance. He can't even muster empty words of reassurance.

 

She keeps planning outings in order to show him how fun being a family is and recently planned a vacation. She looked so happy in the pictures because he had his arm around her and was taking pics to show the world (including the OW) how great they are together. Then they got home and the camera stopped and he's right back to ignoring her. She keeps trying, though, because she's determined to be able to tell their kids she tried everything.

 

I know the WH and he'll never show remorse, shame or repentance. He'd rather lose everything than experience guilt. He's also not going to initiate a divorce and will get upset if his wife initiates one.

 

Why won't he give her an answer about the affair? Why won't he try? Why won't he invest in their family, have a heartfelt conversation, go to counseling? Because he doesn't want to. Sometimes the answers are devastatingly simple.

 

The BW has been living this mess for 2 years. Their youngest has been living in this since the day they were born. Their oldest has gone from a happy kid to clingy. The kids have no power but they're forced to live in the dysfunction as long as she continues to hang on to a guy who doesn't want to "wake up."

 

You say things can remain a mess until he makes contact but why? Why live in the mess? Do you think the mess is best for the kids? There's stability in taking steps in a direction and creating finality in the relationship even if it's not what you want. I've watched their kids suffer through 2 years of a frantic, stressed out mom and an apathetic dad and it's heartbreaking to know the BW can create stability but won't because she'd rather cling to a guy.