Economic Mismatches in the Marriage Market

[Kitty Tantrum]

I've known quite a few people who gravitate toward white collar careers because they're under the misguided impression that it's easy money. "Work smarter, not harder" seems to be the mantra of many a man who thinks that obtaining a qualification on paper by the skin of his teeth will open every door for him. Lots of young people envision themselves basically playing in a cubicle or office all day and then getting off work and enjoying their life of leisure and luxury.

 

I don't think I've ever known a blue collar worker who was so divorced from reality. They at least seem to understand that work is WORK, and seem less inclined to overextend themselves and live beyond their means, because they're not under the illusion that one day they're going to be able to sit around on social media all day and get paid bank for it.

[gaius]

The problem with a lot of white collar work is that often it the carries the least amount of actual value for a company. My former company had a revenue shortfall a few years back and ended up cleaning out almost half of it's corporate staff to make up for it. My job was never threatened because I was one who actually made money for the company and nothing changed operations wise. All those people had been earning a salary and were of no real value at the end of the day.

 

I do notice a lot of my blue collar co workers make awful life choices and squander what they make. You can't do blue collar work until you're 70 but you can retire in your 40's if you work your arse off and make smart financial choices. And women are a lot more open to it than most people think. Strong, confident, sexy men are in such short supply nowadays not having a college degree is no impediment in the world of dating whatsoever.

[Allupinnit]

You growing up poor had nothing to do with your dad being blue collar.

It had to do with him not being able to get a high paying BC job.

 

You getting a BS and a WC job does not make you have a good income

automatically. You were able to turn your degree into a high income.

Not every is able to turn a degree into a high income.

 

There are no guarantees which career path, BC or WC will yield a high

income.

 

Genuine congratulations on your success.

 

This is why I said I wouldn't have spent money or time on a useless degree. And also for the record, I busted my ass waiting tables to put myself through.

 

I see a lot of blanket statements here regarding people who get degrees and "expect lots of money." That hasn't been the case with millennials and Gen Xers that I've met at work, or elsewhere, and they work hard and don't just fart around in a cubicle all day.

 

Also of note, earning a college degree takes time, effort, and money - and people are proud of that piece of "worthless" paper that some of you are downplaying. This is why I also wanted an educated man - I would hate for someone who is supposed to love me to somehow downplay that part of me just because he has a buddy with a plumbing company making six figures therefore it's a huge waste of time. For most people, it's not.

[thefooloftheyear]

 

Also of note, earning a college degree takes time, effort, and money - and people are proud of that piece of "worthless" paper that some of you are downplaying. This is why I also wanted an educated man - I would hate for someone who is supposed to love me to somehow downplay that part of me just because he has a buddy with a plumbing company making six figures therefore it's a huge waste of time. For most people, it's not.

 

No argument...

 

To be fair, though there is a lot more bias and degradation for the people that are in the trenches, making sure that those people with the degrees have lights, water, a safe car, don't have crooks car jacking them, etc...

 

For some reason, they treat those people as sub human if they haven't gone the route of going to university, earning a degree, etc...The snobbery is ridiculous....No disrespect, but even your statement of "I want an educated man"...Well... Not only is that short sighted, its also untrue...A college degree doesn't immediately make someone educated, just as a high school dropout can be very educated...It all boils down to what type of life experiences that particular individual may have experienced and what he/she did in her spare time.,...."Education" can happen in the classroom or out....

 

I have no doubt there is some of the reverse, as you are stating, but its not as bad or as prevalent, IME..

 

To be honest, what I have seen in my life is that the universities absolutely must continue to create this illusion that somehow folks that spend 8 semesters at a college campus have now elevated themselves to some lofty status above all others....It could matter little that the person just went through the motions.....They could have slept through half the coursework, had others help them or the cheated, for all anyone knows...Without this illusion, they would NEVER be able to justify the outrageous costs...They must continue to further this scheme...People forget that universities are big business and exist to make a profit, first and foremost...Educating little Susie/Johnny is going to happen or it wont...They will get paid either way...

 

To sum it up...

 

Give everyone a chance....Scratch the surface and see what they are made of...That guy in dirty coveralls could and in many cases would show you more brilliance and culture than any of your degreed colleagues and be worth millions, he's just may not the type to show it.....I have an uncle that passed away recently that never had any school beyond early grade school, yet engineered/invented equipment that is still used today by many people in his former industry....He held several patents...There were degreed engineers that couldn't dream of what this guy conceived....And this was in the 1950's before the advent of computers and such....

 

Judge everyone equally....Let them show you what they know or don't know or how rounded or educated they are....

 

TFY

[Fluffkitty]

I'm a construction project manager. A huge topic of discussion in the industry right now is the fact that we are in a labor shortage in the trades that is only going to get worse as more of the Boomer generation retires. Young people are not looking at the trades as a viable alternative to a four year degree. This is going to mean that people who have these skills are going to command very high salaries.

 

When I was a facility manager, my Master Electrician was making 120,000. Our junior mechanic, who we paid for his trade school, was just was hired for a job making 100,000. He's 30. I was management and I made less then them. As their boss and with a degree.

 

I have a four year degree, I'm not trashing the college route. But it's not for everyone and I think that we are doing a disservice by treating the trades as "less than".

[Woggle]

Without blue collar construction workers things don't get built so society really can't function without them.

[some_username1]

I'm a construction project manager. A huge topic of discussion in the industry right now is the fact that we are in a labor shortage in the trades that is only going to get worse as more of the Boomer generation retires. Young people are not looking at the trades as a viable alternative to a four year degree. This is going to mean that people who have these skills are going to command very high salaries.

 

When I was a facility manager, my Master Electrician was making 120,000. Our junior mechanic, who we paid for his trade school, was just was hired for a job making 100,000. He's 30. I was management and I made less then them. As their boss and with a degree.

 

I have a four year degree, I'm not trashing the college route. But it's not for everyone and I think that we are doing a disservice by treating the trades as "less than".

 

I would love to re-train as an electrician. When I got made redundant I did some research and discovered that as an adult it is a non-starter unless you win the lottery. It's a total joke with the UK crying out for skilled tradesmen yet they provide no support for adults wanting to get into it so the only way you can do it is as a youth where your parents can look after you for the 3 or 4 years it takes to qualify. So I have little sympathy when people complain about skill shortages in these areas. There are plenty of adults I am sure (like me, for one) who could help but little is done to help them get involved.

[Fluffkitty]

I would love to re-train as an electrician. When I got made redundant I did some research and discovered that as an adult it is a non-starter unless you win the lottery. It's a total joke with the UK crying out for skilled tradesmen yet they provide no support for adults wanting to get into it so the only way you can do it is as a youth where your parents can look after you for the 3 or 4 years it takes to qualify. So I have little sympathy when people complain about skill shortages in these areas. There are plenty of adults I am sure (like me, for one) who could help but little is done to help them get involved.

 

I'm not sure how it's done in the UK but to be a Journeyman electrician here in the states you do need to go to trade school for four years along with working as an apprentice electrician under a Master electrician. So you are working while going to school. 95% of the time, your employer will pay for the school and tests because it's in their best interest for you to pass the test to get your license. Granted, an apprentice isn't making great money and if you have a family it might be a bit tough if your partner isn't working also.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Fluffkitty

[mark clemson]

A college degree doesn't immediately make someone educated, just as a high school dropout can be very educated...It all boils down to what type of life experiences that particular individual may have experienced and what he/she did in her spare time.,...."Education" can happen in the classroom or out....

 

 

Quite true. Frankly, school isn't for everyone. One my best HS friends was very smart. So much so, that he basically couldn't tolerate school - it was like torture for him.

 

He dropped out, got a GED, got into a 4 year college, couldn't stand that, dropped out, and taught himself a rare programming language. Last I heard he was doing just fine with that. Super smart guy. I wouldn't quite say he was an encyclopedia, but he was pretty close.

 

This is not at all to say every HS dropout has a high IQ, but just not to prejudge someone's ability/intel by their degrees.

[carhill]

I was thinking about this thread when noting the passing of Ric Ocasek of the 80's group the Car's on Sunday. He'd left the group, didn't really have significant solo success but he married a supermodel he'd met while in the group after he left and they had a long marriage, separating reportedly in 2017. Who found him dead? She did. She was still checking in on him, the very wealthy lady she is in her own right. No doubt a lot of people thought them an odd couple but it worked for them.

 

What I noted after a long life is quantifying the match is as or more important than the match itself. The security undertone demands it be quantified and confirmed to be steady and reliable. No surprises. Back when survival was far more tenuous than now I'm surprised anyone other than rich people got married because life was so uncertain, presuming back then an economic match was preferable to an economic mismatch.

 

When my parents were dating, my mom actually made more than my dad since she worked on commission selling men's clothes and modeled on the side and he was a bean counter for .gov. However, .gov is steady and reliable and easily quantified and deemed secure for reproduction so was attractive in that realm. Back then the deal was the woman quits to raise children so needed a reliable man, I think they call them providers now, to fund the family. Their situation was practically a cookie cutter for every family I grew up with. In some the wife never worked a paying job at all, going from parents to husband and becoming a mother in her teens. Security and reliability was important. Still is. The numbers have changed.

 

Women often bring more to the table economically now so are used to a certain lifestyle so the numbers to provide them with that lifestyle are bumped similarly and those numbers need to be quantifiable and reliable. Romance may be emotion but marriage is business. It's a legal partnership. Who wants a nebulous and/or unreliable partner? Not a potential mother. That's reality.

[Allupinnit]

I honestly think that women are simply looking for what they consider a counterpart.

 

It will most likely take time before people see the trades as an equally viable option as a white collar job with a 401k, paid time off, and health insurance.

 

How many times growing up did we hear we had to go to college if we didn't want to work at McDonald's??

 

I live in a large metropolitan city, for reference.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Allupinnit

[basil67]

How many times growing up did we hear we had to go to college if we didn't want to work at McDonald's??

 

And some are foolish enough to believe it. Continue one's education, sure. Be that trade school or university. But only a fool would believe that someone who excels at a desirable trade will end up working at McDonalds. It's equally foolish to think that someone with an oversubscribed/useless degree will find work easily.

Edited September 19, 2019 by basil67

[Fluffkitty]

I honestly think that women are simply looking for what they consider a counterpart.

 

It will most likely take time before people see the trades as an equally viable option as a white collar job with a 401k, paid time off, and health insurance.

 

How many times growing up did we hear we had to go to college if we didn't want to work at McDonald's??

 

I live in a large metropolitan city, for reference.

What makes you think people in the skilled trades don't receive these benefits? It sounds like you are confusing people that work in general maintenance with skilled trades like HVAC mechanics, electricians, welders...Everyone that worked for me had plenty of paid vacation, 401k and insurance.

 

It's these misconceptions that contribute to the stigma that work in the trades is less than someone who sits in a cube pushing paper. And I'm speaking as a paper pusher.

[carhill]

Socio-economic mismatches like the marriage between Larry Fortensky and Liz Taylor are a rare exception. People tend to move in, and marry in, their own socio-economic circle. I was introduced to that early, with an even finer delineation between white collar socio-economics, never mind the schism between the professional class and working class. Private school was a great place to learn that. Looking back, it never really changed, just got more 'civilized' for lack of a better term.Young ladies and men were welcomed to date out of their class but got reigned in quick when it came time to join families. Part of life. I'm seeing right now with a friend's daughter whose son is marrying a girl outside their class. The comments are generally civilized except when she's drinking but it's clear there's a separation/mismatch perceived socio-economically. Hey I'm just happy the kid found a girl he gets on with. More power to them.

[basil67]

And I think socio-economic background can play a large part in the matching...possibly more so than the jobs people choose.

 

Friends of ours - she's from a relatively wealthy family, he's not. She insists their children get a private education but he's happy with public school. Especially as they are in an area with good public schools. So here he is, paying a heap of money for something he doesn't support. Lucky he's generally easy going.

[oldtruck]

Without blue collar construction workers things don't get built so society really can't function without them.

 

Not every BC construction will make good money.

Not every WC degree will make good money.

 

There are no guarantees.

[oldtruck]

I'm not sure how it's done in the UK but to be a Journeyman electrician here in the states you do need to go to trade school for four years along with working as an apprentice electrician under a Master electrician. So you are working while going to school. 95% of the time, your employer will pay for the school and tests because it's in their best interest for you to pass the test to get your license. Granted, an apprentice isn't making great money and if you have a family it might be a bit tough if your partner isn't working also.

 

In the US you do not get into the union unless you dad or some other

close relative is willing to get you in the union.

 

You work on the job during the day, and the union provides the instructors

and training in the evenings. Every year they get a raise. So forget the

misconception of them earning minimum wage while an apprentice.

[gaius]

I have a 401k with 7% match.

 

It seems like a lot of white collars need things like private schools, super expensive appliances, luxury cars. Live in areas with really high cost of living. That offsets by far any income advantage you have.

 

Needing a Miele to feel like you're keeping up with your friends puts you at a huge disadvantage. Maytag works just fine for me.

[Fluffkitty]

In the US you do not get into the union unless you dad or some other

close relative is willing to get you in the union.

 

You work on the job during the day, and the union provides the instructors

and training in the evenings. Every year they get a raise. So forget the

misconception of them earning minimum wage while an apprentice.

 

I had both a master electrician and an apprentice working for me. Not Union. The Master made 120,000 and supervised the Apprentice. My company paid for trade school and we paid the Apprentice 35,000 while he was in school. When he passed his test we bumped him up to 50,000. Both had full benefits.

 

So what you said is not the only path.

[Veronica73]

I think I need to become an electrician.

[carhill]

They definitely know how to check your shorts

[thefooloftheyear]

I have a 401k with 7% match.

 

It seems like a lot of white collars need things like private schools, super expensive appliances, luxury cars. Live in areas with really high cost of living. That offsets by far any income advantage you have.

 

Needing a Miele to feel like you're keeping up with your friends puts you at a huge disadvantage. Maytag works just fine for me.

 

 

This cannot be emphasized enough....At least when talking about economic mismatches...

 

All the white collar guys I know have to have all the trappings that go along with the job...They need the fancy clothes/shoes...The nice watch...the BMW/Audi/Benz..etc...They also choose expensive vacations, as you cant post up on your social media that you rented a cabin in the woods to destress and do some fishing, you have to show everyone that you went to Fiji or on safari in Africa....There is a definite liability to "show" when you have certain types of careers..These vacations are great and its nice to drive an expensive luxury/sport car, but they make almost no sense, as far as economics go..

 

Also, of all the people I know(and I know a lot), many of the blue collar types have investment properties(mostly multi family homes and commercial buildings), while the white collar may have a vacation home...The vaca home may be lucky to be worth what they paid for it, while the investment properties bring in monthly income and pay for themselves....

 

Heck, even the cops around here all make over 100K...That's with the best bennies anyone could have(for life) and a pension, that if they start the job early enough allows them to have another career with a bonus second income later in life, when others are being downsized or outsourced...

 

There are a lot of ways to get there....

 

TFY

[Kitty Tantrum]

My grandpa was an electrician, and I worked in the office for a (non-union) electrical contracting company, and I've always figured that if I really needed a career that's what I would do. Even when the economy crashed in 2008, there was still usually steady work - and I saw guys coming in as fatties with zero experience as apprentices and after a couple years the ones who could actually hack it were pretty fit and making enough to support their families.

[Allupinnit]

Lots of assumptions made here about "white collar."

 

I don't even have social media. I live within my means just fine. And even if I do go on a "fancy" vacation, I do so because I can afford it and not so I can post online. My H owns several rental properties - he works as a realtor.

 

The cops in my area are definitely not making 100k. Avg is around 70k.

 

It totally sounds like you live in some sort of blue collar utopia. Good for you. . But please stop making all of these blanket assumptions about people you do not know. You may not think it makes sense to drive a certain car or go to Europe annually but, for others it makes perfect economic sense because they simply can afford to.

[Allupinnit]

I also just looked at the average salary for a welder. Right around 40k. I'd like to know how you could scrape by making a living on 40k in this country. Forget having a family!