Asperger's and socializing/dating

[crispytoast]

<Moderation note-the following posts were preserved from a threadjack in another thread>

 

 

I have a friend who has Asperger's, he really changed my outlook on mental health in general. He's one of the kindest most intelligent & loyal people I've ever met. But he's lost jobs over it, had women dump him when they find out, etc. He's a better man than most I've met but people don't take him seriously because he acts younger than his age and takes a little longer to pick up on social cues.

Edited September 15, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Moved posts to new thread

[spiderowl]

I know two people who have Asperger's, a male and a female. The male is delightful, kind, intelligent, a genius in his field, and will make someone a lovely partner. The female is also kind, super intelligent, a bit unconventional, very creative, designs and makes beautiful garments, can be a bit dominating in a kind way, and has loads of guys interested in her. She's married, so they have no chance.

 

People with Asperger's have feelings just like anyone else. Most of the people I know with Asperger's are very honest and in fact could not lie for the life of them. That is a great trait. Both of the people I mention above have admirers. People with Asperger's are a bit different but not in a negative way.

 

Regarding hearing voices, that is something that is under much discussion. It does not appear to be connected to Asperger's. It can be 'caused' by Schizophrenia (not that much is known yet about the cause of Schizophrenia) but apparently it is something that happens to more people than we think. Many people who hear voices just learn to live with it. It may be a red flag or it may not.

 

Other posters have advised how you can avoid a second date. If you want to see her as friend only, then it is best to say that. It is then up to her whether she meets you again. It is best you assume she will not want to though as she may well feel rejected.

Edited September 14, 2019 by spiderowl

[greymatter]

You're a reasonable guy, AM I have a friend who has Asperger's, he really changed my outlook on mental health in general.

Asperger's is not a mental health issue and is no longer a formal diagnosis. Being on the autism spectrun is also not a mental health issue. It is a neurodevelopmental condition, which is completely different. The average person doesn't understand this and this type of post perpetuates misinformation, however well intentioned.

[crispytoast]

@greymatter...

 

 

If you look at my earlier post, I referred to it as a neurological difference. The point I was trying to make is the same as yours -- to bring awareness that average people still often view it as a disorder and stigmatize people who are on the autism spectrum.

Edited September 15, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Remove quote

[nospam99]

Asperger's is not a mental health issue and is no longer a formal diagnosis.

 

It certainly is a formal diagnosis

 

https://icdcodelookup.com/icd-10/codes/f84.5

 

Get your facts before you post about health care.

 

nospam99 > AAPC Certified Professional Coder

[greymatter]

@nospam99....

 

Nospam, actually you need to get your facts straight. I'm surprised that you don't know this as a coder. You are refererencing an ICD-9 billing code that is used for reimbursement purposes.

 

https://www.autismspeaks.org/dsm-5-and-autism-frequently-asked-questions

 

https://iancommunity.org/cs/simons_simplex_community/dsm5_and_asd

 

There are many, many links on the web about the Asperger's diagnosis being dropped in the DSM-5, if you wish to educate yourself.

Edited September 15, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Remove quote

[nospam99]

^^^ F84.5 is the ICD-10 code. It's in the 2-inch-thick OPTUM360 book on my desk as well as on the web site I cited. According to the web site, 'This ICD-10 code translates to more than one ICD-9 code:' 299.80 and 299.81. I am not certified at ICD-9 to confirm nor do I have the ICD-9 book. DSM and ICD are different diagnostic coding systems with DSM focused on mental disorders and ICD more general. The F84 category code in ICD-10 is described as 'developmental' disorders rather than 'mental' disorders, which may be why Asperger's is not in DSM.

 

My point, tangential to the on-topic question of how the OP wants to dump a woman because she's an Aspie, is that AS is nevertheless a formal diagnosis.

Edited September 15, 2019 by nospam99

[greymatter]

I'm not a coder (thankfully) and that's right, the ICD system is 10. I am correct that Asperger's is no longer a diagnosis which is why I sent you a private message, since our debate [in the prior thread] is off topic and you are incorrect about Asperger's. I am very familiar with autism, unfortunately.

 

<end of moved posts>

Edited September 15, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Edited for topical content and to reflect end of moved posts.

[nospam99]

^^^ I provided a web reference to an ICD-10 diagnosis code for AS. Given that reference, how is AS not a diagnosis?

 

I understand that DSM-5 eliminated AS as a diagnosis. However it's still in ICD, at least until 1/1/22. Is there ANYTHING that makes an ICD diagnosis any less of a diagnosis than a DSM diagnosis? Also it's pretty clear to me that although the description in ICD-11 will (in a little more than two years) omit the word Asperger's, it's also pretty clear that ICD-11 code 6A02.0 is AS. I will be surprised if when documentation for ICD-11 is published AS is not listed as a synonym in the notes for 6A02.0

 

Also please don't send me PMs about this topic.

[basil67]

Is there ANYTHING that makes an ICD diagnosis any less of a diagnosis than a DSM diagnosis?

 

I can't comment on where you live....but where I am, a psychiatrist can't make a formal diagnosis of something which isn't in the DSM. What was previously known as Aspergers would now get a dx of ASD level 1

[somanymistakes]

Autism is not a mental 'health' issue in the sense that it's not something that fluctuates over time or can be 'treated'.

 

Many people have ongoing mental health conditions that they control with medications. Some people's brains just work differently and they have to find ways to deal with that. Sometimes it's a bit of both. Some people have conditions where they can take medications to control the worst of their symptoms, but they are not neurotypical and never will be, they will always have some 'different' thoughts and behavior that both they and the people around them will need to find ways of accommodating.

 

To the outsider, does it make much difference?

 

As for people who are on the autism spectrum in ways that were in pop culture known as aspies, I know at least two, and as far as I know their main problems were when they were young and teachers/etc would punish them for failing to show the "expected" emotional reactions to events.

 

Nowadays in nerd circles plenty of people are used to some folks being a bit strange so it doesn't really create that much of a barrier that I know of. It's probably different if you don't work in tech though.

[nospam99]

^^^ How about a pediatrician or other physician? Are they restricted to DSM diagnoses? Is the restriction imposed by the state licensing board or by the APA?

Edited September 15, 2019 by nospam99

[basil67]

^^^ How about a pediatrician or other physician? Are they restricted to DSM diagnoses? Is the restriction imposed by the state licensing board or by the APA?

 

In Australia, yes, they are also restricted to the DSM. Without being restricted to the DSM, there'd be nothing to stop them from using dx which are questionable.

[preraph]

Autism and it's subset Asperger's are neurological developmental disorders by definition. There is no lab test for it. It is diagnosed based on history and behavior, usually by psychologists, neurologists or more specialized doctors in neuropsychiatry.

[basil67]

Psychologists with the right qualifications can diagnose ASD too.

[nospam99]

^^^ I provided a web reference to an ICD-10 diagnosis code for AS. Given that reference, how is AS not a diagnosis?

 

I understand that DSM-5 eliminated AS as a diagnosis. However it's still in ICD, at least until 1/1/22. Is there ANYTHING that makes an ICD diagnosis any less of a diagnosis than a DSM diagnosis? Also it's pretty clear to me that although the description in ICD-11 will (in a little more than two years) omit the word Asperger's, it's also pretty clear that ICD-11 code 6A02.0 is AS. I will be surprised if when documentation for ICD-11 is published AS is not listed as a synonym in the notes for 6A02.0

 

 

What has gotten buried in the discussion is greymatter's assertion that Asperger's is not a diagnosis, my counter assertion (incidentally supported by reference to the ICD https://icdcodelookup.com/icd-10/codes/f84.5), and focus on the two questions bolded above. I understand from other posts that specifically in Australia the DSM diagnosis must be used. Noone has said if that restriction applies anywhere else in the world. Speaking from personal experience related to my current employment, every year I handle hundreds of scripts. The required documentation uses ICD-10 codes exclusively with no reference to DSM codes. Again, I'm providing a reference: http://www.oms.nysed.gov/medicaid/handbook/sshsp_handbook_9_march_21_2018_final.pdf

 

My interest in this discussion to to promote specific facts. I understand that the DSM-5 consolidated several diagnoses including AS into ASD. However given that AS remains a distinct diagnosis in ICD-10, an unqualified generalization of the form that 'Asperger's is not a formal diagnosis' is incorrect. It only takes one exception to disprove a generalization.

[littleblackheart]

Well yes, people with Aspergers are just...people.

 

What limits us most is not how wired our brain is - it is dealing with ignorance, miseducation, lazy uninformed short-cuts, pack mentality, social hierarchy, passive-aggressive behaviour, having to network and 'knowing the 'right people' as opposed to being rewarded exclusively on merit (professionally), filtering what we say and having to endure 'small talk' in order to 'connect' with people.

 

ASDs form 4% of the population, so we are everywhere - we are parents, doctors, scientists, researchers, artists, in a couple, single, straight, gay, agnostic, religious, empathetic, good with numbers, bad with numbers, funny or not, intense or not, and anything else under the sun!

 

Those of us who have learned to mask the most obvious traits are able to 'blend in' just fine; so much so that no-one can actually tell. So we help our 'kind' by raising issues from the 'inside'.

 

There are a few things I wish I could change personally (being 'the odd one out' isn't always fun...) , but so many things I like, like being able to think outside the box, to not prejudge someone without actually knowing them as standard, I like to be able to stand up for myself without worrying about the consequences, I like that I never feel loneliness or social pressure, not caring about appearance stuff or how people see me,...

 

It's liberating and frustrating at the same time, just as life is in general for most people.

 

In terms of a diagnosis, an adult will need to self-diagnose first then get a medical team (psychologist + occupational therapist + counselor normally) to confirm.

 

There's no 'remedy' for ASD but self-awareness, a solid support system and a good dose of resilience certainly help!

[pepperbird]

<Moderation note-the following posts were preserved from a threadjack in another thread>

 

 

I have a friend who has Asperger's, he really changed my outlook on mental health in general. He's one of the kindest most intelligent & loyal people I've ever met. But he's lost jobs over it, had women dump him when they find out, etc. .

 

 

This sort of treatment is why my daughter doesn't want to "out" herself as being autistic. She afraid of the negative reaction.

[pepperbird]

@greymatter...

 

 

If you look at my earlier post, I referred to it as a neurological difference. The point I was trying to make is the same as yours -- to bring awareness that average people still often view it as a disorder and stigmatize people who are on the autism spectrum.

 

 

It is also co-morbid with depression and other mental health issues.

[pepperbird]

No offense to anyone who responded to this thread, but it really illustrates part of the problem when it comes to the public's understand of being autistic.

 

How about, instead of talking about autistics and what "they" think/feel, you actually ask an autistic? There's lots of us out there, and many of us would be more than happy to discuss autism and what it really means to be autistic and get along in the "neurotypical" world.

[pepperbird]

 

There's no 'remedy' for ASD but self-awareness, a solid support system and a good dose of resilience certainly help!

 

 

Remedy? I don't need one. It's not a disease. Except for that ( and it could just be me being overly sensitive...sorry about that)to me, the rest of your post is spot on

[littleblackheart]

'Remedy' was probably a bad choice of word. I meant it as NTs sometimes trying to 'fix' us (wrongly).

 

Being ASD is sometimes great, amd sometimes not so much; same for how everyone else deals with their strengths and limitations.

 

It's just annoying to have random lay-persons 'diagnose' others on the basis of what they think they know, or put a judgement on us when clearly, they don't know.

 

Anyway. Back to real life, where most people I have met are actually either willing to meet half-way or already there.

[somanymistakes]

How about, instead of talking about autistics and what "they" think/feel, you actually ask an autistic?

 

I have! But since they're not here to post, if I talk about them I have to say what "they" think/feel, not me!

[basil67]

Nospam, if people can make formal dx of conditions which aren't in the current DSM, what's to stop them from still diagnosing "hysteria" for women? Or for diagnosing something which isn't widely recognised by the rest of the medical community?

[nospam99]

Nospam, if people can make formal dx of conditions which aren't in the current DSM, what's to stop them from still diagnosing ''hysteria'' for women? Or for diagnosing something which isn't widely recognised by the rest of the medical community?

 

That it's not in the ICD, which BTW hysteria is not. The DSM is not a product of 'the Medical community', only the APA. The ICD is produced by WHO. All I'm saying is that it is incorrect to assert that AS is not a diagnosis and I'm still waiting for anything other than a personal opinion, regulations specific to one country, or the implication that the only diagnoses listed in the current DSM are diagnoses. As I mentioned before, the printed ICD is 2 inches thick. Is every diagnosis in that book also in the DSM?