My sister drugged me

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

prison general population is no chance at all for improvement.

 

I agree, but good luck trying to convince a judge that she's such a special case, more of a special case than all of the other offenders in there with crappy childhoods, to give her a chance to try to improve herself in another way.

 

Maybe tackle prison reform and/or restorative justice as your hot button issue if it means that much to you.

[pepperbird]

I agree, but good luck trying to convince a judge that she's such a special case, more of a special case than all of the other offenders in there with crappy childhoods, to give her a chance to try to improve herself in another way.

 

Maybe tackle prison reform and/or restorative justice as your hot button issue if it means that much to you.

 

 

Restorative justice can be a wonderful thing, but unless the individual accepts that they have a problem and need help, it often does nothing. Justice isn't just about reforming the criminal, it's about punishment, distasteful as that may be.

 

Op, I will say it again. It's selfish of you to seek clemency for your sister. It's not just about the two of you. It's about all the other people who she could hurt. You may not care about whether or not she hurts anyone else, but you are asking society to care about your sister and her rough past. Perhaps she should stop blaming her past for her current actions and accept responsibility for them. That's usually the first step in recovery.

 

I get wanting to help your sister. She's your family, and you're looking out for your own. The excuse that she may become even worse in prison, is, in my opinion, bunk. From what you say, she's already drugged you. What will she have to do for you to realize she's dangerous. How many others will she have to hurt, or do they not matter?

 

 

I also know you value personal liberty, but as Mill pointed out, one of the tenets of liberty is to not cause harm to others. The right to personal freedom with the responsibility to not harm others. By causing harm she has abdicated her right to liberty. It's that simple. The rules aren't complicated....one doesn't drug and sexually assault others, no matter what sort of childhood you had.

 

Oh, and by the way, it's pretty hypocritical of you and your husband to take full advantage of the police/medical system/ legal system when it benefited you, yet you condemn it when it might mean your sister gets put away.

[major_merrick]

Well, I've indicated my reasoning that my sister will be more of a threat if I don't act. Your choice not to accept that logic. The attitude that justice is about punishment is very prevalent, but I don't see it having much effect. The fewer crimes we hang/shoot for, the more criminals we have around. Without some kind of reform/restoration, they don't change. Since what she's done isn't a capital offense, she WILL be out again. In a punitive system, the only change to her will be improved skills and perhaps some increased hatred. And you're forgetting about the people she may victimize IN PRISON without some kind of reform. The clemency that you see as selfish is actually preventative in nature, as punishment has not been a deterrent. If she can't be deterred, what's left? Life behind bars at taxpayer expense? Capital punishment?

 

As for the cops and the medical people, my husband and I differ somewhat. I had no control over their involvement, as I was unconscious. I would have chosen a different way. My husband dislikes the system for its flaws and tries to avoid using it, but he doesn't have the hatred for it that I do. Then again, he wasn't subjected to police brutality like I was.

 

One major attitude that I dislike is the idea that the state or society is somehow a victim in all of this. That has become one of the precepts of our modern justice system. Even when I (the victim) would prefer that she not be prosecuted for what she did to me, the state plays victim and does it anyway. I have no opinion about her other charges...that is up to whatever other people are involved (if any). I believe that crime is primarily an act between individuals. Society/justice only facilitates the settlement of the issue. Society itself is not the victim.

[amaysngrace]

Society is the victim because when you involve police and courts we’re the one who pays the bill.

 

We want something for our money. Getting dangerous people off the street is one of those things we want.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

And you're forgetting about the people she may victimize IN PRISON.

 

If this was a priority for the justice system, nobody but those in solitary confinement would end up in prison.

[pepperbird]

W

One major attitude that I dislike is the idea that the state or society is somehow a victim in all of this. That has become one of the precepts of our modern justice system. Even when I (the victim) would prefer that she not be prosecuted for what she did to me, the state plays victim and does it anyway. I have no opinion about her other charges...that is up to whatever other people are involved (if any). I believe that crime is primarily an act between individuals. Society/justice only facilitates the settlement of the issue. Society itself is not the victim.

 

 

It's not about society being a victim. It's about getting someone who would drug and rape a woman off the street. So what if it's just for a few years? At least for those years, she won't be able to hurt anyone.

 

If she is granted clemency as per your request, what do YOU plan to do to keep others safe from her?

[Mrin]

One major attitude that I dislike is the idea that the state or society is somehow a victim in all of this. That has become one of the precepts of our modern justice system. Even when I (the victim) would prefer that she not be prosecuted for what she did to me, the state plays victim and does it anyway. I have no opinion about her other charges...that is up to whatever other people are involved (if any). I believe that crime is primarily an act between individuals. Society/justice only facilitates the settlement of the issue. Society itself is not the victim.

 

This jives with your neo-libertarian world view and doesn't surprise me. While in your case you clearly have a victim (you) it runs along the same argument lines as victimless crimes such as prostitution or oddly enough, polygamous marriage.

 

The only thing I'd like to point out is that this "crime against society" precept you railed against is not absolutely not a recent introduction by our modern judicial system but rather a core founding principle of the societal contract that dates back to ancient Greece and beyond. The idea is that a society is formed and makes rules governing the proper behavior of its inhabitants is absolutely harmed by said violation of the rules and therefore must punish the violator. If it doesn't, it undermines the very foundation of the societal contract and invalidates everything else.

 

A good thought experiment that my criminal law profession used to use was the scenario of a group of shipwrecked survivors washing up on a deserted island. On the island there is just enough water for each survivor to drink a cup a day. If anyone drinks more than a cup, someone else is left without water. The survivors, recognizing this, band together an make a rule that everyone is only allowed one cup of water a day and if anyone violates this, the penalty will be death (because essentially, the person over drinking the water threatens the life of another who will go without).

 

Everyone obeys the rules. One day, 3 of the survivors are found to be drinking more than their allotted cups of water. They are put on trial, convicted of breaking the water rule and sentenced to die - one execution per day at sunrise. During the following two days, two of the convicted are executed by the group. On the afternoon of the second day, a rescue ship appears over the horizon and makes its way directly to the island to rescue the survivors.

 

Question: What should become of the third convict?

[pepperbird]

There is no true libertarian views here. One of the tenets of those is freedom of the individual so long as they cause no harm to others.

 

A sister who drugs and sexually assault people is certainly causing harm. A sister who would rather she be out on the street where she can hurt others because of her views on society causes harm to others. That's plain old nepotism.

[vla1120]

I'm really blaming myself for this one. I keep thinking that if I'd raised her better, she wouldn't have turned out so dysfunctional.

 

Nope. Nope. Nope. You are not to blame.

 

First of all, I'm sorry this happened to you. Second of all, as I have taught my own daughters, you can blame your parents/upbringing/environment until you are an adult. Once you become an adult, your decisions are yours to own. I don't care how difficult or abusive someone's upbringing was (and I've got some scary skeletons in my own closet), everyone is responsible for their own behavior as an adult.

 

I only have one full-blooded sibling. He was my abuser. I have only spoken to him one time in over 40 years - at my mother's funeral. You do not owe your sister a relationship. I realize you feel responsible because you stepped up to the plate to raise her. You did your best, and thank goodness for you. The rest is on her.

[nospam99]

In all seriousness, short of capital punishment (which I don't advocate in this case), I've always liked the idea of transportation. Too bad Australia's already been 'used' and Pitcairn is inhabited. Maybe find some isolated Pacific island?

[major_merrick]

It's not about society being a victim. It's about getting someone who would drug and rape a woman off the street. So what if it's just for a few years? At least for those years, she won't be able to hurt anyone.

 

If she is granted clemency as per your request, what do YOU plan to do to keep others safe from her?

Pepperbird, you keep using a straw-man argument. What you're fighting about is NOT what I'm saying. The clemency I'm seeking is that she would enter a kind of mental health program instead of regular prison. NOT to be let loose on the street immediately. Sort of like the "insanity plea." You don't get out of the facility until your issues are fixed, if that is even possible. Reread what I've written. I'm not a great writer, but I've attempted to explain it. I maintain my position that a few years in prison followed by release without FIXING the core issues yields repeat offenders. I'd rather attempt to fix the problem by having her evaluated, counseled, treated, and medicated if necessary. If that doesn't work, then I'd agree that she has to be locked somewhere. I still think there's hope for her.

 

 

In all seriousness, short of capital punishment (which I don't advocate in this case), I've always liked the idea of transportation. Too bad Australia's already been 'used' and Pitcairn is inhabited. Maybe find some isolated Pacific island?

Transportation would be a good thought. What a shame the moon isn't available yet.

 

I talked to my sister on the phone today. She's had her preliminary hearing for the charges against her in the other city. Trial will be in a couple of weeks. I'm surprised it is so soon, but I guess they want to wash their hands of her. She could have faced felony charges, but prosecution is only pursuing misdemeanors, so it will be faster. Then she gets sent back here for her felony trial.

 

I can tell my husband is annoyed with me. Although I know he probably still cares for her since he helped me raise her, I think his patience is gone. He wants her out of our lives for a few years, and I can't blame him. I know she didn't mean to overdose me, but in his mind she's the one who nearly killed his wife and he's not letting go of that. I haven't told him about today's phone call, and I don't feel good keeping a secret, but I don't really want a conversation either.

[Maddie82]

I get what you mean OP. You would rather she be in a facility where they can work with her and help her understand and overcome her issues with hurting people. Somewhere where she can receive the right kind of treatment and interact with others in similar situations. That's reasonable.

[pepperbird]

If she's as bad as you indicate, she already knows how to work the system, just as you do.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

That's reasonable.

 

I don't know about reasonable, but it is understandable.

[major_merrick]

If she's as bad as you indicate, she already knows how to work the system, just as you do.

No idea. But I taught her just about all the things I know. She's much more physically capable than I am, though. Slender, fit, and more energetic. If she went to prison, I could see her either causing a lot of trouble inside or even escaping.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

If she went to prison, I could see her either causing a lot of trouble inside or even escaping.

 

These aren't good reasons for keeping someone out of prison.

[pepperbird]

op,

I do admire your loyalty to your sister, don't get me wrong about that. It's just the way you're going about it.

 

 

 

Turn the situation around and say it was one of your children who had been drugged and assaulted by a stranger. Would you still ask for clemency for that person, or would you want them off the street?

 

 

 

Your sister may have a lot of problems, but that doesn't make her mentally ill, or any different than your average, garden variety male rapist is mentally ill. In fact, much of the research in the field of sexually related crimes indicates there is no cure for this type of personality disorder. I'd rather see someone like your sister in prison for 10 to 15 years than see in a mental health facility where she may well be discharged due to budget constraints or "she's cured".

 

A someone who has been sexually assaulted, I couldn't care less about how your sister fares in prison, so long as she can't hurt anyone else.

[major_merrick]

But pepperbird, I don't know how else I can go about it. Here's my thought process. I basically have four options, and none are great.

 

*Option A - Leave her totally to the state and watch it happen all over again in 5-6 years, and again in another few years after that. Try to pick up the pieces.

*Option B - Reject her, cut off contact, and spend the rest of my life wondering what happened and where she went. Possibly read the trail of destruction in the newspaper.

*Option C - Falsify what I can in order to prevent her going to jail

*Option D - Testify, provide context, and ask for an alternative.

 

 

Options C is not worth it. Can't even contemplate that for a millisecond. If she had been a great sister I'd do anything in my power to keep her free. But after what she's done? Nope. Not even the slightest chance that I'd put myself at risk for her. So that leaves us with Option A or B. I can't stand the thought of no contact. Just can't do it, so Option B is out. Option A may still have to happen, but not yet.

 

Option D is the best path that is open - trying to get her some help and a wake-up call. It is the best thing I could come up with, and it is legal. I don't have to lie or cover anything up. I intend to tell the truth and provide context for that truth, followed by a personal request. And all of this would have to be approved by her public defender. For all the criticism I've faced about my idea and all the names I've been called, this is part of the process of the justice system. Having to do it is unpleasant, but the situation has me backed into a corner.

 

And all this is going on while I'm still dealing with the emotional aftermath. This thing has made life difficult, and I feel like letting her go would be the "easy" choice that would allow me to move on. But I've let so much of my family go for what they've done to me. I can't do it again. Not yet, anyway.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

You are not backed into a corner. You are not law enforcement. Let them deal with it. You don't believe in counseling anyway, so you'd be disingenuous by suggesting Option D. YOu don't KNOW that she'd re-offend when she gets out of prison. Stay out of it.

[Happy Lemming]

If you are asking for suggestions/opinions, I vote for Option B.

 

I haven't spoke to my sister in 25+ years, I have no idea what is going on in her life and don't care.

 

It works for me and its a hands-off/laissez-faire approach to the problem. Out of sight, out of mind... one less thing to think or worry about.

 

Just my two cents...

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

If you are asking for suggestions/opinions, I vote for Option B.

 

I haven't spoke to my sister in 25+ years, I have no idea what is going on in her life and don't care.

 

It works for me and its a hands-off/laissez-faire approach to the problem. Out of sight, out of mind... one less thing to think or worry about.

 

Just my two cents...

 

At the risk of sounding sexist, I think this is a lot easier for men to do than for women to do.

[Happy Lemming]

At the risk of sounding sexist, I think this is a lot easier for men to do than for women to do.

 

Fair enough...

[major_merrick]

As much as I've been able to cut people out of my life, I think I'm reaching my limit. Plus, being more stressed out lately, I'll admit that I'm probably more needy than usual. My sister is more than just a sister since I raised her. Almost like we are different generations. She looks younger than her years and I look older, so we have often mistaken for mother and daughter and that matched the role I had to take on when she was young. The pain of being unable to fix this is just unreal.

[pepperbird]

A The pain of being unable to fix this is just unreal.

 

 

It sounds to me like you should cut yourself some slack here. You did what you could for and were there for her when she needed you. You did your best to help her get her life up and running, and also to impart a sense of right and wrong.

 

 

 

She's an adult now, and from what you say, you really put in an effort to give her all the support you were able to. You've given her the tools you felt she needed to find some happiness in life. You are NOT responsible if she chooses not to use them. She's not a child anymore.

 

If you think of her as being, in a way, like your daughter, approach the situation like a parent. If you can honestly look back to the past and feel you've done your best, then it's time to let her go. As a "parent" , in the end, that's really all you can do. Whistle through your teeth, spit and hope for the best. You have your own little ones to worry about now.

 

 

Be a bit kinder to yourself. This is NOT your fault.

[Big Aus]

As much as I've been able to cut people out of my life, I think I'm reaching my limit. Plus, being more stressed out lately, I'll admit that I'm probably more needy than usual. My sister is more than just a sister since I raised her. Almost like we are different generations. She looks younger than her years and I look older, so we have often mistaken for mother and daughter and that matched the role I had to take on when she was young. The pain of being unable to fix this is just unreal.

At the risk of oversimplifying, you need to do what is best for YOU, long term.

 

It seems apparent that you are going to feel guilty/torn/distraught either ay, so try to figure which option will lessen that.

 

I suppose one thing you need to try to figure out is just how dangerous she is.

Was her drugging you a stupid mistake, or does it represent a callous disregard for others' health & wellbeing? Was she trying to seduce you, or rape you? Most importantly what is the risk she does it again, or worse?