Using autism as an excuse to be an entitled jerk?

[preraph]

The measure of a man is the way he bears up under misfortune. Just because someone is unfortunate does not justify maliciousness. It's like the cycle of abuse. You suffered abuse at the hands of your parents or whoever. Some will rebel against their actions and become better people in spite of it. Others will continue the cycle of abuse by taking it out on others.

 

We have a choice.

[mark clemson]

It may not be so much that society abused him (although maybe some specific individuals did) but that he has needs that weren't being met. This creates distress - sexual frustration can do bad things to some men unfortunately and feelings of social isolation can do bad things to both men and women. As pointed out, some of these incel types are intensely resentful against both women and more romantically successful men, and can even become violent.

 

So, one way to look at this is: he has needs, they weren't being met, and he found a way to (at least partially) meet them. He mentioned a social component to his turn down this particular life path as well, which is interesting. In his mind, this is an achievement. This isn't necessarily the right way to look at this, but it's one way to understand how he got there.

 

Is he a user? Absolutely. Should we feel sorry for him? Guess that's up to each individual. I doubt the vast majority of the 1000 phone numbers are anything other than women's he's "burned through" and has nothing to do with (who could possibly have that much time). Still it's likely he's emotionally hurt at least a fair number of women to prove whatever it is that he's proving to himself.

 

He dwells on the number because it's proof (to him) of his "skill level". He's almost certainly overcompensating for the distress he felt when younger.

 

One thing that's critical here is opportunity - specifically, he has the vast numbers of a large urban area. In a smaller community his "gambling" approach that burns through large numbers of women wouldn't work. He'd be known as a "cad" and treated as such I suspect.

[preraph]

Seems like if it's obvious the person is going to have these type issues as an adult, they need to be prepared for it when they are still kids. I mean, how do they get that sense of entitlement? No matter what problems or lack of them a person has, what causes entitlement starts at home not being taught you can't have everything you want. You can't shield them from seeing people and things in the media and wanting them, but you can teach them not to feel entitled to everything, teach them in the real world, that's not realistic, and prepare them a bit at least.

[Beendaredonedat]

Well if Pick Up 'Artistry' gets him laid and therefor away from guns and crowded places, then I say "you go do you thang" and keep yourself happy.

 

Every woman, and I've said this many times before in forums, should read some of the PUA like Mistry or David D'Angelo and educate themselves about what that cocky guy hittin you up at the bar or bus stop is doing. Word of caution though... let him down easy, we don't want an "incel" with a gun p.o.'d

[crispytoast]

Look I'm very against PUA culture as well but instead of demonizing the guy for being how he is, perhaps we should be paying attention to the societal factors at play that make him -- and many others like him -- the way that they are. By understanding and having a more compassionate approach to mental health differences and disorders, we allow space in society for a lot of wonderful people who have the deck stacked against them. The reality is, this guy's problems started for him well before he was of dating age.

 

 

@preraph That's the problem, a lot of autistic people aren't prepared for it at home. In general they are lucky if they have parents who are sympathetic to their plight, let alone understand how to help it. It is not uncommon for parents to despise their autistic child for not being normal and for requiring such a level of care. The less lucky ones deal with hell from their classmates, their teachers, and then go home to deal with the same hellish mistreatment from their parents. Our society is ill-equipped to give support to these people as children, and while our understanding of autism is improving, the social willingness to accept autistic people is well behind this understanding.

 

People who are abused as children are more prone to reflect those same behaviors as an adult -- that is the cycle of abuse. Prison is full of people like this, who were abused and misguided in their childhood. Many of them have psychological issues that went unchecked, either because their families didn't care, didn't have the resources, or were culturally opposed to the western approach (or any approach) to psychiatric care. There are enough socioeconomic factors at play that I could write a 50-page essay on the subject. To chalk it down to "well they weren't raised right and that's their fault" is an incredibly privileged place to come from.

 

 

@elaine Yes society has rules, and they are far from perfect. If societal rules were perfect, we wouldn't have crime, poverty, or famine. We wouldn't have a failed drug war, child sex slavery, or a corrupt private prison industrial complex that's stacked against the impoverish and owned by filthy rich men who function in a bubble of society that is more or less immune from the laws which they profit off of.

 

To say that people who are not equipped to follow that set of rules are genetically defective is messed up. Lots of our scientific development is pioneered by people who had mental differences that were against society's rules. Galileo, Einstein, Bill Gates to name a few. And we have people like Robin Williams who were wildly loved by society but still did not receive the psychological support in his own environment that he needed.

[Ami1uwant]

Where does it say he's autistic? I didn't get that.

 

Anyway, as an example, among the intellectually disabled people, some are kind and some are not. Unfortunately, I think it's true of children as well. Some very young children enjoy torturing small animals. A good heart (or lack thereof) is separate from mental acuity. When a child or a mentally retarded person, (or the autistic guy in your post) has hatred, they're not good at hiding it, the evil is starkly expressed on the face and in speech.

 

I'm pretty good at sensing whether someone has a cruel heart or a kind one. You can see a lot on people's faces if you look past the exterior. It's an intuition we all have, to varying degrees, that saves us from dangers. I haven't gone out with one of these PUA.

 

Autistic and intellectual disability are two very different things

 

 

Intellectual disability is where a child’s mind does not develop and has low intelligence level.

 

Austin’s kids have a problem between the brain inside their head and the ability to communication verbally or socially. Asperger are peop,e who have strong advanced intelligence but they are lacking social abilities.

 

Their also is high correlation between autistics and prosopagnosia which has to do with facial recognition which also correlated to non verbal cues.

 

 

More toward the OP

 

I have a form of autism. It’s not classic autism. A cousin of mine on my dads side about 5 yrs younger than me had this type and this was in the 70s.

 

Also there is something genetic on my mothers side of the family. It appears differently in women and men. My mom is the oldest of 5. The odd ones have this, even ones do not. The odd ones have one child with this, the even ones did too. My nephew has it too. Sibling 4 oldest child was the worst.

 

With women it’s harder to see because it’s docially acceptable for women to be shy or to themselves. Both my mom and one sister were intelligent but reserved who didn’t have many friends. If they were born today they may have gone and done something more in their careers.

 

With the men they are very smart but socially awkward with relationships. The one I mentioned above was the worst. He would come off as intelligent and shy who struggled to meet people and had little dating life. He did online dating and met some peop,e snd one just clicked with him where it opened him up. Talking to his mom she said it was like night and day to get him to open up his personality.

 

For me I’ve never had much luck in random meets or trying to meet peop,e in bars. Trying to start a conversation was very difficult. I respected women too much to use pick up lines or to shower them with hallow compliments from a stranger.

 

The times I did better was when something naturally started a conversation between us. Some of these led to dates. I had more luck if it was in a situation I saw the person over time. Like a college class or the person worked st a place I regularly went to.

 

When I was in my early 20s I worked at a national retail pharmacy as a clerk/cashier. Most of the time it was a manager, one clerk, and a pharmacist working. On daytime weekends you had 2 clerks. On truck day you have more. There was one clerk I’d occasionally worked with. When she worked by herself she was like me..good workers.when we worked together there was chemistry.it was clear to everyone watching. She had a boyfriend and wouldn’t Perdue anything.

 

This kind of thing has been rare in my life. I’ve met many women and worked with them but didn’t develop some sort of chemistry with them to Perdue something.

 

Online dating has help me greatly because it’s hard for me to find who is available and try to read social flirting.

 

The strange thing...I have no problem approaching someone to talk to if I have a need to talk to someone. My issue only comes out when it comes to potential dating.

Edited October 1, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[elaine567]

@elaine Yes society has rules, and they are far from perfect. If societal rules were perfect, we wouldn't have crime, poverty, or famine. We wouldn't have a failed drug war, child sex slavery, or a corrupt private prison industrial complex that's stacked against the impoverish and owned by filthy rich men who function in a bubble of society that is more or less immune from the laws which they profit off of. .

 

I didn't say they were perfect rules, but they are rules that keep the majority of us ticking along nicely. We expect certain standards of behaviour and those who fall too far off the norm, we tend to distance ourselves from, that is how it works.

Yes there have been outliers and geniuses who may have upset society's rules a bit, but you can hardly compare Bill Gates or Galileo to some societal misfit who is getting his kicks from messing with the heads of no doubt vulnerable women.

[preraph]

 

 

@preraph That's the problem, a lot of autistic people aren't prepared for it at home. In general they are lucky if they have parents who are sympathetic to their plight, let alone understand how to help it..

 

On the flip side, I'd say that many of their good parents feel so sorry for them that they end up trying to keep them motivated and encourage them that they can do anything to the point where they give them all the happiness they can and forget to prepare them for their limitations.

[crispytoast]

I didn't say they were perfect rules, but they are rules that keep the majority of us ticking along nicely. We expect certain standards of behaviour and those who fall too far off the norm, we tend to distance ourselves from, that is how it works.

Who exactly is the majority? In most of the US, if you are non-white, non-cis, or non-neurotypical, you are discriminated against. God forbid you are a combination of the three. I'm not defending this guy specifically -- like I mentioned before, and if you see my general attitude toward pick-up artist ideas on this forum, I find PUA to be particularly abhorrent -- I am challenging your reasoning for demonizing him, which comes off as quite unforgiving toward the general population of people with mental differences.

 

On the flip side, I'd say that many of their good parents feel so sorry for them that they end up trying to keep them motivated and encourage them that they can do anything to the point where they give them all the happiness they can and forget to prepare them for their limitations.

What sense of entitlement exactly are you talking about?

[basil67]

I didn't say they were perfect rules, but they are rules that keep the majority of us ticking along nicely. We expect certain standards of behaviour and those who fall too far off the norm, we tend to distance ourselves from, that is how it works.

 

Yes, this is exactly how it works. But when everyone distances themselves from a person who doesn't fit in and can't fix it, they can get bitter and angry and can find comfort in those who listen and sympathise. Ie; PUA

 

If we want to prevent young men from ending up in PUA circles, we have to offer what they do: acceptance, inclusion and support.

[Shining One]

If we want to prevent young men from ending up in PUA circles, we have to offer what they do: acceptance, inclusion and support.

You forgot one thing: Results. The man in question probably tried various other approaches before turning to pick-up artistry. If any of those other approaches had yielded positive results, he probably would have stuck with that instead.

[basil67]

Just because someone can't get laid doesn't mean society is abusing them.

 

We're not talking about "someone who can't get laid". In this instance, we're talking about someone who has a social skill disorder which prevents them from connecting with the opposite sex in the same way as their neuro typical peers.

 

We're also talking about someone who has a far greater risk factor of being bullied and ignored by their peers and rejected by society in general. Elaine describes it well.

[preraph]

Who exactly is the majority? In most of the US, if you are non-white, non-cis, or non-neurotypical, you are discriminated against. God forbid you are a combination of the three. I'm not defending this guy specifically -- like I mentioned before, and if you see my general attitude toward pick-up artist ideas on this forum, I find PUA to be particularly abhorrent -- I am challenging your reasoning for demonizing him, which comes off as quite unforgiving toward the general population of people with mental differences.

 

 

What sense of entitlement exactly are you talking about?

 

Have you read the rest of this, because we've covered that ground.

[preraph]

We're not talking about "someone who can't get laid". In this instance, we're talking about someone who has a social skill disorder which prevents them from connecting with the opposite sex in the same way as their neuro typical peers.

 

We're also talking about someone who has a far greater risk factor of being bullied and ignored by their peers and rejected by society in general. Elaine describes it well.

 

What do you think he's trying to do learning Pickup Artistry if not sex? That's what the whole thing was about, conning sex out of women.

[basil67]

It's a big leap to assume he doesn't have a long history of trying and failing to get a girlfriend before ending up at this stage.

[preraph]

I didn't say he didn't. It's no excuse, though. No one is just entitled to a partner or sex, and it doesn't make it right to con it out of someone, lie and mislead them. It simply doesn't happen for a lot of people. Some people become more empathetic because of their own adversity, and others become mean and callous, but there's no excuse for taking revenge and being a ruthless liar using women.

 

Plus how many times have we seen on here, guys on the spectrum or other problem having it suggested that they join a group of like people to find a partner and they get mad and say they want a "normal" girl. No empathy whatsoever.

[basil67]

Preraph, can you comprehend that some people can not have challenges that mean they not only struggle to comprehend the needs of others, but that they can also be broken by the way they are treated by others?

 

Humans can and do break other people. This guy is likely broken due to a combination of his neuro diversity and long term exclusion by others. He's hurt and angry and this is the way it's coming out.

[Shining One]

Some people become more empathetic because of their own adversity, and others become mean and callous, but there's no excuse for taking revenge and being a ruthless liar using women.

Are you saying revenge is his intent? I'd say that's a bit of a stretch. It seems much more likely that sex is his intent. It's like a woman being flirtatious with men she has no interest in for free food and drinks. Her intent is not to lead them on, her intent is the free food and drinks.

[thefooloftheyear]

Eh....I know a guy that married a woman that tricked him into believing she was hetero when in fact she was a lesbian, had kids with him, then took him for millions in a divorce...

 

This stuff, while may be insensitive, is really not all that different...

 

There are no excuses for bad behavior.. A persons best defense is to not be so gullible and naïve and realize that a lot of people in all walks of life will find a way to get over on others...

 

TFY

[Beendaredonedat]

Are you saying revenge is his intent? I'd say that's a bit of a stretch. It seems much more likely that sex is his intent. It's like a woman being flirtatious with men she has no interest in for free food and drinks. Her intent is not to lead them on, her intent is the free food and drinks.

 

 

^^^ that seems the most likely (IMO)

Edited September 22, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[preraph]

Don't know or care what his intent is. The result is the same. And yes, I'd say that that particular person was getting revenge and having no conscience about it.

 

Basil, broken or not (and I don't doubt some of them are broken), they're still not entitled to ruthlessly con sex out of women, nor are they entitled to sex at all. No one is. Not everyone finds a mate or love or sex. If you had a daughter, would you point at that man and tell her, Now, you go have sex with that poor man because he's had a hard life? Really?

Edited September 22, 2019 by preraph

[preraph]

This is not the majority of ASD people, but I have sometimes suspected that some of the ones we get on here may fall into this category because they seem particularly frantic and seem to think of nothing more.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789215/

 

"Taken together, the core symptoms of ASD combined with limited sexual knowledge and a lesser facility for having romantic and sexual experiences could predispose some individuals with ASD to developing challenging or problematic sexual behaviors, such as hypersexual and paraphilic behaviors, and even sexual offending."

 

"Paraphilic" behavior definition:

 

Paraphilic disorders are recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, urges, or behaviors that are distressing or disabling and that involve inanimate objects, children or nonconsenting adults, or suffering or humiliation of oneself or the partner with the potential to cause harm.

 

It says there is a greater instance of it than in the general population, but it is still far from the norm for ASD people. It also says a lot of them are never taught sex education and that their caretakers may underestimate their sexual capacity.

 

There is treatment for hypersexuality in ASD patients, utilizing both behavioral and pharmacological modalities.

 

I think a few of them would benefit from treatment and lead happier lives if wanting sex is making them miserable and they can't control the urges.

 

Needless to say, and we all know some, there are many high functioning ASD people whose problems are minimal. But there's always going to be some who fall everywhere on the sliding scale.

Edited September 22, 2019 by preraph

[basil67]

Oh come on, how is his intent any different to the guys (and some girls) who jump straight back into OLD to find someone to use and show off in order to get over a broken heart?

 

I would also say that unlike the actions of the user type, this guy is full of bravado. It's just angry words and he's probably done none of it. I would lay money that if he found a girl who loved him, he would love her back and work towards the relationship he dreamed of. As would probably most of the desperate and dateless guys who do PUA stuff.

 

As for my daughter, she doesn't have to date anyone she doesn't like. But she does have to be kind and inclusive. And yes, she did take time to chat to the aspie guys at school and now at work. If they asked for dating advice, she'd give it.

[Shining One]

Don't know or care what his intent is. The result is the same. And yes, I'd say that that particular person was getting revenge and having no conscience about it.

Intent is what determines whether or not it's revenge. If his motivation is "I want sex", then it's not revenge. If his motivation is "I want to punish women for rejecting me", then it is revenge. It's not revenge simply because a third party says it is.

[basil67]

This guy's life circumstances have left him vulnerable to getting caught up in this kind of stuff. Why aren't we blaming those who set themselves up as PUA gurus and who not only encourage hate from those who are vulnerable, but make money from it?

 

Australia refused a visa Jeff Allen and threw Julian Blanc out of the country...that's how repugnant their teachings are. But you lot are blaming the clueless guy who follows the rhetoric out of desperation and frustration rather than those who teach the hate in the first place.