Using autism as an excuse to be an entitled jerk?

[Beendaredonedat]

they're still not entitled to ruthlessly con sex out of women,

You demote woman to the status of having no control over their own sexuality and are victims of their own sexual choices with that statement.

[Mr. Lucky]

You demote woman to the status of having no control over their own sexuality.

 

Agreed. This PUA garbage, regardless of the player's background or intent, doesn't work on women with even a modicum of common sense...

 

Mr. Lucky

[littleblackheart]

I have ASD, and I also have good friends (new and old, male and female), have had ONS, flings and a marriage and exactly zero issues with men other than I actively don't want to be in a relationship - that's my choice. I have kids, a good job, have developed social skills with time (and honed observational skills / a lot of practice / the help of very good friends) and can deal with the sensory overload relatively well. I am completely open about my dx at work (academia, plenty of us there luckily)or really, anywhere, so that people stop judging everyone on the spectrum with a broad brush.

 

Those on the spectrum I know are also full, active members of society - they teach your kids, they cure your ailments, make great scientific discoveries, pay taxes, some of them are your boss, all the while living 'normal' lives, whatever that means. Having to 'fake' going with societal rules is really very annoying, but it's not that hard.

 

All this to say Yes, he is using autism as an excuse - it might be an explanation, but it's not a reason for him behaving that way.

 

This guy's issue is not being on the spectrum - it's being socially excluded

with no support system or network. As Basil said, PUA is a community - a safe haven for a lot of socially excluded men, on the spectrum or not. It's a dog chasing tail kind of situation for him and men like him, because he is further excluding himself by his desperate, off-putting actions; totally counterproductive.

 

'Entitled jerk' is not part of the ASD dx - so many men who are not on the spectrum behave appallingly too. Being a dick and being autistic, although not mutually exclusive, are not synonymous.

Edited September 23, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[elaine567]

...This PUA garbage, regardless of the player's background or intent, doesn't work on women with even a modicum of common sense...

...or weak or naive or young or shy or or socially inadequate or vulnerable or emotionally damaged women... but who cares about them...?

 

Manipulators and con artists always prey on such targets, do we blame them or the perpetrator?

The old guy conned out of his life savings or the "poor, mixed up kid" who had a hard time, and who is laughing all the way to the bank...

Here for some it seems to be a case of the "stupid" women... and the "poor" guy.

Edited September 23, 2019 by elaine567

[pepperbird]

I'm going to get on a soapbox. I'm autistic, and two of my kids are as well.

 

First off, you don't" have" autism. It's not a disease. It's simply a different way for a person's neurological system to be wired, and it's more an issue of communication than intelligence. When my son was assessed, he was given a whole slew of psychological tests. His intelligence levels are off the charts, but it's like he's trapped inside himself. He can be verbal, but it's really hard for him. At 16, I'm not sure how much that's going to change.

 

Second, autistics are still treated with a lot of discrimination, unkindness and patronizing. Many still think of "Rainman" when they hear "autism" or think of a kid sitting in the corner, hands flapping, rocking back and forth. My son is actually "hypersocial" and will socialize with anyone. He just doesn't talk much.

 

Third, autistics can and do empathize. In fact, some are so empathetic it actually hurts them. That's my oldest. She took on the pain of the world, so much so that she actually had to learn to ton e it down a bit.

 

 

 

As for the article? It's hard to know what to say about it. Is this guy actually autistic, did he diagnose himself?

[pepperbird]

'Entitled jerk' is not part of the ASD dx - so many men who are not on the spectrum behave appallingly too. Being a dick and being autistic, although not mutually exclusive, are not synonymous.

 

 

Somehow along the way, being introverted and being autistic have gotten mixed up. One can be an extrovert and autistic.

 

The guy in the article sounds like a jerk, and he would be whether he was autistic or not.

[elaine567]

Somehow along the way, being introverted and being autistic have gotten mixed up

 

Yes and it is even being questioned by researchers, in that so many people are now being labelled with autism, ie they meet the test criteria, but when

researchers look for differences between those with "autism" and "normal" subjects, the quantifiable differences are getting less and less.

Some feel that the "diagnosis" is now encompassing people who are shy, who are introverted, who are exhibiting other "signs", but these people do not actually have "autism" as previously described.

[littleblackheart]

ASD goes beyond social skills; it's really only a part of the dx. The main criteria are a triumvirat of mind blindedness, sensory issues and communication issues.

 

Noone will be dx with asd based off of social skills alone. No idea what researchers you are alluding to, elaine.

[elaine567]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/08/190821111816.htm

The diagnostic criteria for autism haven't changed over the years that the differences have diminished. Instead, Dr. Mottron believes that what has changed are diagnostic practices.

 

"Three of the criteria for an autism diagnosis are related to sociability," he said. "Fifty years ago, one sign of autism was a lack of apparent interest in others. Nowadays, it's simply having fewer friends than others. Interest in others can be measured in various ways, such as making eye contact. But shyness, not autism, can prevent some people from looking at others."

[pepperbird]

ASD goes beyond social skills; it's really only a part of the dx. The main criteria are a triumvirat of mind blindedness, sensory issues and communication issues.

 

Noone will be dx with asd based off of social skills alone. No idea what researchers you are alluding to, elaine.

 

 

There's a lot of self diagnosis going on as well. It reminds me of the "fad" of ADHD. Every little boy who would rather play outside than sit in a chair in a classroom was being labeled as being ADHD, often by people who didn't really understand what it is.

[littleblackheart]

Thanks, @elaine. I don't know how dx are carried out in Canada or the USA, but here in the UK it took 2 years for me to get dx (that included members of my immediate family being interviewed by both an occupational therapist and a psychologist). So it was pretty thorough.

 

Also don't know what type of profiles (high /low functioning) were looked at in the study, nor do I know Mottron's starting point or personal bias (we all have one). There are so many possible readings to his conclusion, but it mainly sounds like he's critisizing his colleagues for hasty dx?

Edited September 23, 2019 by littleblackheart

[Mr. Lucky]

...or weak or naive or young or shy or or socially inadequate or vulnerable or emotionally damaged women... but who cares about them...?

 

As the father of a daughter (and now with a granddaughter), pretty sure we're after the same thing. There will always be grifters and con-artists, the change in technology from 3-card monty to Nigerian princes hasn't put a dent in the supply.

 

The focus has to be on the other side, developing awareness, perception and self-worth in the very people you describe. There will always be someone willing to offer you 3 magic beans for the family cow...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Beendaredonedat]

...or weak or naive or young or shy or or socially inadequate or vulnerable or emotionally damaged women... but who cares about them...?

 

Manipulators and con artists always prey on such targets, do we blame them or the perpetrator?

The old guy conned out of his life savings or the "poor, mixed up kid" who had a hard time, and who is laughing all the way to the bank...

Here for some it seems to be a case of the "stupid" women... and the "poor" guy.

I don't think anyone here is even insinuating any of that never mind having actually said it.

 

There are plenty of woman out there that enjoy the art of the Pick up artist, they enjoy the attention. What I said in response to another poster was based on her demeaning remark that demoted women to damsel in distress mode, unable to be in control of her own sexual choices.

 

If the dude in the Opening Post is successful in his ability to pull women then he's pulling women who either enjoy the game, like doing men they've just met, etc. Bottom line, if a woman or a man for that matter want more than to be a casual sex partner then they should know not to lose themselves in the BS administrations of a man they've just met. He's not forcing anyone to go to bed with him. If you go to bed with someone before you even know their last name then its a choice.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Beendaredonedat

[elaine567]

^^^

I don't think you actually get what PUA is all about, it is not just some guy throwing banter about to get a willing woman into bed...

[mark clemson]

... he's pulling women who either enjoy the game, like doing men they've just met, etc. Bottom line, if a woman or a man for that matter want more than to be a casual sex partner then they should know not to lose themselves in the BS administrations of a man they've just met. He's not forcing anyone to go to bed with him. If you go to bed with someone before you even know their last name then its a choice.

 

 

I think the "con" here is that he's adept at faking emotional sincerity (or at least claims to be). I suspect you're right about some women just playing along, but presumably there are others who were hoping he was something he's not (i.e., being actually interested in them beyond sex) and were fooled and felt used, which they in fact were, afterwards.

 

It's not that the ones who can't see through this guy don't have agency, it's that they're making their choices based on false pretenses. Much like the person who writes a $50,000 check to a con artist has agency as well.

 

It's not that he's just asking women to have sex, it's that he's, in his own words, manipulating them emotionally.

 

This ability to manipulate seems to be what he's so proud of, which is what's sparking the levels of disgust here.

[Beendaredonedat]

^^^

I don't think you actually get what PUA is all about, it is not just some guy throwing banter about to get a willing woman into bed...

 

Could you explain what you think PUA is all about then?

[Beendaredonedat]

I think the "con" here is that he's adept at faking emotional sincerity (or at least claims to be). I suspect you're right about some women just playing along, but presumably there are others who were hoping he was something he's not (i.e., being actually interested in them beyond sex) and were fooled and felt used, which they in fact were, afterwards.

Its up to us as individuals to protect ourselves from men who only want one thing if we in fact want more than a one nighter or casual hookups. I don't like painting women as "victims" when they've volunteered.

 

It's not that the ones who can't see through this guy don't have agency, it's that they're making their choices based on false pretenses.

Sometimes perhaps but that's where personal boundaries and sensibilities come into play. One can enjoy their sexuality without jumping into bed over some banter from a man that you just met. If he's being insincere then with time and getting to know him, she will either be able to suss him out through his actions or lack thereof or she will volunteer to be in a non-committed sexual relationship with him. Inferring that women are victims of their own sexuality is enabling women who jump into things to feel they are one when they are only their own worse enemies.

 

Much like the person who writes a $50,000 check to a con artist has agency as well.

That is for another thread and one has to question the mental capacity of anyone that would be so naive. Dr Phil has these types of women and men on his show all the time and the result is always the same... he offers them in house therapy at a luxury psychological resort.

 

It's not that he's just asking women to have sex, it's that he's, in his own words, manipulating them emotionally.

Unfortunately more women then not bond through sex so they shouldn't be going to bed with a guy who chats them up in a bar. You can't be emotionally manipulated by someone you don't even know.

 

This ability to manipulate seems to be what he's so proud of, which is what's sparking the levels of disgust here.

His ability to manipulate says more about us women then it does him. Why are women jumping into bed with strangers and then thinking they are a victim of a man that has game? These PUA leave women alone that are with good self-worth and strong boundaries in place because they know it's a waste of their time within the first five minutes of chatting them up so they move onto someone who has a lack of both those things. (self-worth and strong boundaries as well as confidence in their own ability to find a good man worth having).

 

Sorry, If women don't take responsibility for their own emotional health and honing good personal boundaries then they are the authors of their own mis-fortune. I would say the same thing to any man that allows himself to be emotionally manipulated by a gold digging shrew.

 

Just my not so humble opinion about delegating women as damsels in distress to the administrations of a masher.

 

Like she needs sex for validation.

^^^ and that is the type of women this man will be able to pull.

 

Cheers.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Beendaredonedat

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

There's a lot of self diagnosis going on as well. It reminds me of the "fad" of ADHD. Every little boy who would rather play outside than sit in a chair in a classroom was being labeled as being ADHD, often by people who didn't really understand what it is.

 

Omg yes. My son's third-grade teacher ruined his whole year because of this (and then "retired" at the end of that year). Ironically, a few years later it was his well-behaved, quiet, obedient older sister who was diagnosed with ADD, not him.

[Beendaredonedat]

^^^ Thanks for a great thread, C.O.

[mark clemson]

I don't know BDDD - perhaps you don't mean it this way, but it feels like you are victim-blaming a certain portion of these women. They were gullible, weak, or stupid enough to fall for this guy, therefore they deserve to be hurt by him?

 

I agree that there is a live-and-learn process we all go through (and need to go through to some extent). However, just because some of them are "easy prey" doesn't mean he (or anyone) needs to take advantage of them. Nor does it mean they are asking to be hurt. To my mind, he's still victimizing them.

 

Just like with the con artist victim - the gullibility of the victim doesn't excuse the crime or mean that the victim wanted to lose large sums of money and doesn't deserve justice (or better yet to never be taking advantage of in the first place). Laws against it don't "enable" people to be victims.

 

I'd note that the above almost certainly wouldn't apply to all the women - a certain percent (the smarter or less naive ones, presumably) wouldn't be expecting/interested in genuine caring, etc from this guy.

[preraph]

Yes and it is even being questioned by researchers, in that so many people are now being labelled with autism, ie they meet the test criteria, but when

researchers look for differences between those with "autism" and "normal" subjects, the quantifiable differences are getting less and less.

Some feel that the "diagnosis" is now encompassing people who are shy, who are introverted, who are exhibiting other "signs", but these people do not actually have "autism" as previously described.

 

Yes; hence why so many doctors have said for years now that many people are being misdiagnosed with it.

[preraph]

Con artistry is specifically designed to fool people. When you fall for it when someone is deliberately lying to you to make you believe something, you are a victim, I agree, Mark. Not saying this guy is necessarily on that level. He may be all talk for all I know, but there are some sociopaths out there who have spent their lifetime trying to learn how normal people with consciences act so they can survive amongst them without detection, and those are con artists if they use what they learned for bad purposes. Again, doubt this guy is anywhere near that level, but there's nothing to say you can't be both autistic and sociopathic. If he was brought up without empathy and/or with neglect, I'd say the chances were much better he could lean that way.

 

Does it excuse the behavior? No. Most of the prisoners in jail have excuses. Doesn't mean they should be on the street and accepted.

[crispytoast]

Sorry, If women don't take responsibility for their own emotional health and honing good personal boundaries then they are the authors of their own mis-fortune. I would say the same thing to any man that allows himself to be emotionally manipulated by a gold digging shrew.

 

Just my not so humble opinion about delegating women as damsels in distress to the administrations of a masher.

Yep yep yep.

[preraph]

Okay, naysayers. So let's take one of the most notorious conmen as an example. What decent person wouldn't have agreed to help some decent looking unscary looking man look for his dog if asked? Or helped a person in a park surrounded by other people load something in their car?

 

 

What woman wouldn't be more interested in a guy who was pretending to be everything she wanted and doing a convincing job of it? And why is that the woman's fault that he's a lying conniving fraud? It's not.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

And why is that the woman's fault that he's a lying conniving fraud?

 

Because simply by being a woman she represents all other women who have treated him poorly in the past? Revenge by proxy?