I'm afraid of talking and getting emotionally close with women.

[mark clemson]

-I have a car, a decent job, and have my own place away from my parents. I'm also going to college for IT and videography so I definitely have a future for myself.

- I'm fairly fit and like keeping myself in shape. I go to the gym at least 3 times a week and like to do some running as well.

- I have a fairly active social life. I'm in several clubs at my local college and definitely keep myself fairly busy.

- I have many hobbies and interests. I enjoy playing guitar and the piano, doing photography, and some videography.

- I don't smoke, I don't do drugs, i'm not physically abusive.

 

 

Agree with what Elaine said. This stuff about you DOES matter, but it matters more in like the mid- and late stages of the game. The initial stage of the game is about communicating, discussing, building friendship, "connection", rappaport. Making them feel good and feel good about themselves and about you, as discussed.

 

Once you've crossed this first bridge, then all the other stuff matter. You have to make that initial connection first. I get and respect how Aspergers could make that very challenging for you. It's pretty right-brain stuff.

 

Try to work on social skills, the suggestion with a coach or similar isn't a bad one IMO. Many men who aren't half as good as you in material terms get women - they "charm" their way in with looks and/or social skills and "good feels" (or in some cases deliberate emotional manipulation ).

 

You have a lot to offer and you will have the sugar daddy option to turn to if the social skills barrier is too much. As you know, you're far from being the only guy to have trouble connecting with women in early adulthood and do seem to have better prospects than many.

[mark clemson]

This is a resume that says "I'm exactly like everyone else and that's the best thing I can think of."

 

 

Respectfully, what I see here is he's (in material terms) a lot like many (possibly most) of the men who ultimately win the game of finding a woman.

[normal person]

Respectfully, what I see here is he's (in material terms) a lot like many (possibly most) of the men who ultimately win the game of finding a woman.

 

Sure, but I think that's an incomplete portrait of the situation. The point is that these aren't the things that matter (yet), or are just the prerequisites. The other stuff is subtle, complex, and often invisible. Personally, I think it's short sighted to look at these criteria alone and assume that he's got all he needs, as evidenced by his long, continuing struggle. As you said:

 

Once you've crossed this first bridge, then all the other stuff matter

 

Which I agree with. Most of the jobs, hobbies, etc don't really matter much until she has some kind of emotional attachment to or gets some form of emotional excitement from you. And sure, in some instances the prerequisites are enough to generate an emotional response on their own (hence why I don't think it's a bad idea for him to try to be very successful), or at least to overlook the other stuff -- but OP doesn't have that power yet. Until he does, none of the other things really matter, so in the meantime, the better option is to learn to form emotional, personal bonds with people. We can try and help here, but this is probably better taught by an in person professional.

Edited October 11, 2019 by normal person

[mark clemson]

Fair enough, NP and yes, I think we are saying much the same thing here.

[SumGuy]

...

Many ladies will go with the guy with the biggest wallet because he can give them experiences the other guy cannot, I don't blame them for doing this but you cannot tell me its not true that many would rather go for the material things than go for a nice guy. As they say if the shoe fits wear it.

That's your opinion, and really nothing more.

 

It is blame, you are painting women with a broad brush and making them a scapegoat for your decision. It is even worse than blame to imply this is somehow inherent to their nature.

 

From your own posts I don't think you have even dated enough to have even the beginnings of statistically significant sample to go by.

 

The internet is a great echo chamber for the disgruntled, just because such sentiments are stated repeatedly and voraciously by red pill nation doesn't make them true. All it does is prevent men from addressing what may be the real cause of their difficulties. And as such not really advice.

 

I can tell you that how you characterize women is very much not my experience.

Edited October 11, 2019 by SumGuy

[ZA Dater]

 

I can tell you that how you characterize women is very much not my experience.

 

Good for you.

 

That's the beauty of experience, seldom do people have the same experiences, because yours were different to mine does not render mine any less relevant and vice versa. I have been on enough dates, met enough ladies to know that ultimately the nice guy will always loose to the guy who has "more". Again no issue with it at all, but to say that this is completely untrue is stretching things a bit.

 

How do you explain the OP lack of success, based on here he is a well spoken articulate guy with diverse interests, yet nobody is interested in him. Put him next to the guy with "more" and who do you think women are going to choose.

 

At the end of the day everyone wants to have more than they have now, anyone who says this isn't true is simply lying to themselves or they are just happy to be rather than strive to be better. I applaud the OP for actually having the hobbies he does, trying to date, asking questions because if you don't try you don't know.

 

Emotionally close, well what is that really, is that a friend, is that a lover, is that a guy who rides in to support them in tough times?

 

So much here is made of what the OP needs to do, the OP needs to do that but honestly you cannot tell me the issue is completely the OP's fault. Look around here, there are many, many guys who cannot date, you cannot tell me they are all so completely flawed that nobody will date them?

Edited October 12, 2019 by ZA Dater

[elaine567]

How do you explain the OP lack of success, based on here he is a well spoken articulate guy with diverse interests, yet nobody is interested in him. Put him next to the guy with "more" and who do you think women are going to choose.?

He is by is own admission, a cold and distant guy who is difficult to get to know and who struggles socially.

A fat wallet will not help that.

 

Many men will not date cold and distant women who are difficult to get to know either, as most people are looking for friendly sociable people.

Women who want relationships are looking at being with a guy for years, through thick and thin, last thing they want is a cold fish.

They want someone they feel comfortable with. Someone they can relax around. Someone who will make a good husband and father.

Someone who will fit in easily with their friends and family.

Not some cold and distant guy who everyone feels "awkward" around.

 

Yes there are a few men here who "cannot date", but there are many more who have no difficulty finding dates, who are playing the field, who have fwbs, who are in relationships, who just got out of relationships, who are married, who are in affairs...

They don't all have fat wallets, but i guess they are all men that women can relate to on some level.

 

Women will date and love homeless guys, guys without jobs, guys with little going for them... but if the connection is there and they are happy, then who cares?

ZA you live in a superficial world of Supercars and fine dining and "models", and "gold diggers", you therefore have little concept of what normal ordinary women want.

 

Until the OP addresses his core issues and seeks help IRL, he will likely never be successful.

[Envy123]

 

How do you explain the OP lack of success, based on here he is a well spoken articulate guy with diverse interests, yet nobody is interested in him.

 

 

Comparing past myself (thin, good-looking, social, plenty of interests) and current myself (obese, worse looking, not as social as before and less interests), one would assume that I was successful before and not successful with women nowadays.

 

But that's not the case. Why? Let's see.

 

Past myself would constantly chase the next skirt, showing full desperation and ending up creeping out every woman who was unfortunate to cross my path. Also, implicitly sending out the signals "Do you want to date me? No, OK. Next!".

 

Current myself would treat women like a friend, unless or until she gives the go ahead to something more. Even then, it would be a gradual process and not something that escalates quickly.

 

I think OP may act like my past myself, repelling women by his attitude. Just my two pennies.

[ZA Dater]

 

Until the OP addresses his core issues and seeks help IRL, he will likely never be successful.

 

And yet the OP has lots going for him, one would think women would see that? Why don't they see that? Why do they only focus on what he has not got and not what he has got? If women truly wanted to connect as you say they would take note of the good qualities he has and not condone him for what he has not got? Surely.

 

You definitely had me at "someone to fit in with their friends and family" can I ask why? Or is this once again a classic example of "he must be like my friends boyfriend", for me any women who demanded this would be right off my list to date, irrespective if she was a super model. Frankly I think this is the least important, most irrelevant "demand" women have.

 

I suspect the statistics of people who have zero success at dating are mighty large if extrapolated on a worldwide scale, you cannot tell me all those men are fundamentally flawed.

 

What has happened is the OP has been rejected so often by women he has lost all confidence and all self worth, I don't think this is right, chewed up and spat out for simply being himself.

 

Connection you say, connection based on what? Mutual interests? Or "well he can do this for me so he is a better bet than person xyz". I don't believe in connection, you either get along with the person, the person either adds something to your life or they don't. Again I think the OP has something to offer a lady BUT well they just see the awkward, see what they don't like.

 

I have been slammed on this forum for being apparently superficial but you know what I have been out with many, many people I didn't find attractive, why because I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, clearly no women has ever given the OP the benefit of the doubt, YET it is him who is being pulled to pieces for simply being himself. You might not agree but I think there is something very wrong with a world where those who differ even slightly are ostracised because they are different.

 

Perhaps I am being harsh but honestly I don't think most women actually care one iota about men, Tinder, well if you have 34c, blond hair and blue eyes and vaguely look good, why would you bother with the different type guy when you can date a different guy each day of the week. That person isn't going to give me of the OP the time of day. By the reckoning of some "we" should accept the overweight lady as that is our "level", rubbish there are no levels here, just ones implemented by social media and society.

 

My issue with dating really started at 16 when I asked someone out in front of a crowd, she laughed at me and so did everyone else, frankly I couldn't care but I learnt that really women don't care. I then sent another valentines roses and never so much as got a thank you. And so on and so forth the negative experiences kept coming and they still do.

 

OP pick yourself off the canvas and fight another day, give some more of yourself to ladies, show a bit more of your personality BUT make sure you are hard nosed enough to let rejection wash off like water.

[ZA Dater]

Current myself would treat women like a friend, unless or until she gives the go ahead to something more. Even then, it would be a gradual process and not something that escalates quickly.

 

I think OP may act like my past myself, repelling women by his attitude. Just my two pennies.

 

 

I think that's a good way, the friend zone can offer a lot, for me its offered more than any dating experience I have had but ultimately one does want more which isn't possible. Having said that its a decent enough compromise.

 

 

Sure, I used to believe in ok lets be friends and have that as the basis but never ever has this worked.

[chillii]

He is by is own admission, a cold and distant guy who is difficult to get to know and who struggles socially.

A fat wallet will not help that.

 

Many men will not date cold and distant women who are difficult to get to know either, as most people are looking for friendly sociable people.

Women who want relationships are looking at being with a guy for years, through thick and thin, last thing they want is a cold fish.

They want someone they feel comfortable with. Someone they can relax around. Someone who will make a good husband and father.

Someone who will fit in easily with their friends and family.

Not some cold and distant guy who everyone feels "awkward" around.

 

Yes there are a few men here who "cannot date", but there are many more who have no difficulty finding dates, who are playing the field, who have fwbs, who are in relationships, who just got out of relationships, who are married, who are in affairs...

They don't all have fat wallets, but i guess they are all men that women can relate to on some level.

 

Women will date and love homeless guys, guys without jobs, guys with little going for them... but if the connection is there and they are happy, then who cares?

ZA you live in a superficial world of Supercars and fine dining and "models", and "gold diggers", you therefore have little concept of what normal ordinary women want.

 

Until the OP addresses his core issues and seeks help IRL, he will likely never be successful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep , op , za , any others , it's useless giving some resume or having all this credit it's not about going for a job or bank loan.

Even just thinking like that holding onto all these weird ideas of what's gonna get you women, is just your own self inflicted unassailable road block.

lf you don't work on warming yourself up a bit and connecting well , Elaine's explained it all right there , then you'll just beat the same drum forever.

All this stuff is the very very first and foremost stuff once your with someone and it's gonna be a really really short date without it.

You guys are so damn closed to all this stuff and as long as you stay closed you'll just keep getting what you've got.

Edited October 12, 2019 by chillii

[elaine567]

And yet the OP has lots going for him, one would think women would see that? Why don't they see that? Why do they only focus on what he has not got and not what he has got? If women truly wanted to connect as you say they would take note of the good qualities he has and not condone condemn him for what he has not got? Surely.

Why would they choose to see that? This is not a job interview, he doesn't get extra brownie points for his job and some hobbies she may or may not share.

Women usually want friendly, warm and sexy, not cold and distant.

Cold, distant, awkward, hard to get to know, not sociable, no charisma are often deal breakers, that is the reality, all else pales into insignificance.

You definitely had me at "someone to fit in with their friends and family" can I ask why? Or is this once again a classic example of "he must be like my friends boyfriend", for me any women who demanded this would be right off my list to date, irrespective if she was a super model. Frankly I think this is the least important, most irrelevant "demand" women have.

Women usually exist in social groups that include friends and family, so of course a guy must fit in. This is not about "Oh he must be like my friends bf" this is a about the ability to socialise and get on with the people nearest and dearest to her.

Perhaps I am being harsh but honestly I don't think most women actually care one iota about men, Tinder, well if you have 34c, blond hair and blue eyes and vaguely look good, why would you bother with the different type guy when you can date a different guy each day of the week.

I agree women do not really care about (non family, non friend) guys who do not meet her requirements. She is there to find a suitable man, not pander to every Tom Dick and Harry.

Do you actually care one iota about the women you do not consider "good enough"?

The unshapely, the fat, the single mother, the unintelligent, the uninteresting, the ones with the bad accents, i.e. all your deal-breakers...

No, I guess not, so why should she?

She doesn't want a "different type", she just wants a man she is attracted to.

[Trail Blazer]

My ex-wife's brother had Asperger's and he struggled with women. He felt he had a lot to offer; he was highly intelligent academically but, he was very socially awkward. He was deemed a "creep" when he tried talking to girls in public.

 

The guy had a lot of hobbies, but many were strange, like train spotting and other uncommon, almost recreational activities that he'd partake with other "weird" friends of his.

 

About four years ago, he met a woman with whom, to the best of my knowledge, he is still with today. He was 37 when he met her, so it took him a long time. She's a little unique herself, but they make a good couple.

 

My ex brother-in-law may have been more severely on the spectrum, I'm not sure. The reality is that he struggled to connect with "regular" women. I know how that comes across as very patronizing, but the point is that, as another poster said, "every pot has a lid" and he found his pot and lives happily ever after.

[Trail Blazer]

He is by is own admission, a cold and distant guy who is difficult to get to know and who struggles socially.

A fat wallet will not help that.

 

Until the OP addresses his core issues and seeks help IRL, he will likely never be successful.

A fat wallet will attract the gold diggers, but is that really the women he wants to attract? The reality is he is who he is. Most women aren't attracted to socially awkward people.

 

In my experience with OLD, looks matter most. Looks will attract women, but it won't retain them, as women really want the whole package. There's nothing wrong with that, either. I, too, want more than just looks. If we don't connect then I'll move on, I won't waste energy on someone I wouldn't see a future with.

 

I don't think I'm that good looking (I'm not a mythical "Chad" type), but I manage plenty of dates and get a lot of compliments on my looks. I don't put effort into my dating bios because, frankly, I don't need to. What it tells me is that first and foremost, initial attraction is looks.

 

Sure, I earn good money as well, but I'm loathe to advertise that at all. I guess dressing well, driving a decent car and being able to afford doing decent things on dates adds to what was initially attractive to women. That, and (from the feedback I've been given) I'm always smiling.

 

Women want, in no particular order, a guy who has;

a) good looks;

b) a good job/money

d) social confidence (without being arrogant)

 

At a time where I've never felt as close to being at the zenith of "what women want" it's a cruel twist of irony that I am still in love with the one who doesn't want me. And, I put down, in part, my ability to attract women because of that reason.

 

The point I'm making here is that my success has been on the back of many factors outside of my control. Some points to note;

 

- I can't help what I look like, but thankfully I've done okay in the biological lottery of life.

 

- I worked hard to get where I have in my career, but through either being unwilling or unable (the latter is probably a precursor to the former) many couldn't do the job I do (but nor could I do many jobs others do)

 

- confidence comes from validation of the first point, combined with a real lack of caring about the outcome of the date. I'm more bold and it hasn't hurt my prospects with regards to ONS and FWB offers

 

How a man makes a woman feel is the single most important thing he can do. But that comes down to many, many factors outside of his control before he even gets a chance to offer that.

 

OP, based on his own admission, doesn't have the looks to reel in many women. This works against him in OLD. Women have their pick, and it's very hard to show anything else on OLD. In real life? Well, to overcome the lack of looks, confidence and social awareness is key. Asperger's? Yeah, that combination makes it really challenging...

 

Like I said in my post above, finding love for the OP isn't out of the question. However, lets not be so insincere and suggest that a few simple tweaks here and there will have Adonis playing second fiddle to him.

[Trail Blazer]

ZA Dater: I agree with a lot of what you say. Your observations are in line with what I've experienced. Except, I don't hold it against women (I'm not saying you do either). It is what it is, and it's not unique for just women to want to land the best partner they can get.

 

I find that many people feel uncomfortable with your views because, the truth can hurt. When women's SMV, especially prevalent on OLD, is highlighted in such a way that it's broken down an dissected, it can make for uncomfortable reading. It can make women seem very superficial and, almost unrealistic in their requirements.

 

It's the case for just about all species, and humans are no exception. It's survival of the fittest. Whilst "survival of the fittest" is no longer applicable, especially in western societies with welfare systems, it's still true that the fittest will thrive well beyond society's safety net which guarantees that, at a basic level, everyones survives.

 

I see it on OLD dating all the time. Women's profiles are largely geared towards how they expect a man to fit into what they expect. There's no doubt that, at least in the initial courting stages, it's absolutely paramount that a man be flexible and accommodating to a woman's needs, or he'll be quickly discarded and replaced with the next viable option.

 

A man who has the whole package, the man who has the looks, money, confidence is the one who'll last. The man who has the unique ability to know when to lead and when to follow; the man who's always in control, but never seems controlling.

 

There's nothing wrong with that. Any of it. It's all fine. But the point I've made for a long time is, at what point do women feel it's imperative for them to offer something back? When they're required to, is my answer. I mean, who puts in more effort than they need to? I'm not talking about once in a relationship when one loves their partner and both want to make the other happy. I mean, in the initial stages, it really is down to the guy to be "above and beyond" as he's competing with so many other guys.

 

Women: I have no issue with you. It's your prerogative to attract the best man you can. You could be socially conditioned to look for certain guys (and that social conditioning can vary depeding on where you grew up) but you can't defy your biological urges. And, despite saying you want a nice guy, you're actually attracted to the less than nice guys.

 

Anecdotally, when I've least wanted a relationship I've attracted the most women I've ever experienced, many of whom want a relationship with me, despite never having stated that I want one myself. Combining what I (subjectively) offer with an attitude of indifference to dating you (you being the "in general" term for whomever I'm seeing at the time), it seems that we're all attraced to the slightly indifferent and unattainable. I'm guilty of that, too.

[Envy123]

I think that's a good way, the friend zone can offer a lot, for me its offered more than any dating experience I have had but ultimately one does want more which isn't possible. Having said that its a decent enough compromise.

 

 

Sure, I used to believe in ok lets be friends and have that as the basis but never ever has this worked.

 

Maybe it's due to different experiences, but I have been more successful when it was a gradual process than when I tried to escalate things quickly.

 

What it tells me is that first and foremost, initial attraction is looks.

 

That does explain why OLD has never worked for me. I have really let myself go and when it comes to first impressions, I never make a good one.

 

Offline, you don't just have the looks as the first impression but attitude and personality too.

 

Anecdotally, when I've least wanted a relationship I've attracted the most women I've ever experienced, many of whom want a relationship with me, despite never having stated that I want one myself. Combining what I (subjectively) offer with an attitude of indifference to dating you (you being the "in general" term for whomever I'm seeing at the time), it seems that we're all attraced to the slightly indifferent and unattainable. I'm guilty of that, too.

 

Me too. Romance only happens when I don't care about getting it.

[elaine567]

I think when people are in superdating mode they have high standards & expectations as they are looking for "the one".

The pressure is on and the filters are set to get rid of anyone who is considered not up to scratch.

The results may be disappointing.

 

Whereas in laid back chill mode, they are more open to dating a wider selection, as "Who really cares where this is going?"

People who would never have made the grade previously, end up sometimes being "the one".

[normal person]

And yet the OP has lots going for him, one would think women would see that? Why don't they see that?

 

This is subjective. He's basically got the same things everyone else does. It doesn't really change his "visibility."

 

Why do they only focus on what he has not got and not what he has got?

 

You're oversimplifying a pretty complex issue. There are a multitude of reasons anyone is not going to be appealing to you, no matter what they "do" have.

 

If women truly wanted to connect as you say they would take note of the good qualities he has and not condone him for what he has not got? Surely.

 

Also an oversimplification. No one wants to "connect" with everyone else at random. You're saying that as if people have an innate desire to "connect" with any person until they have a reason not to, when in reality it's the other way around.

 

 

What has happened is the OP has been rejected so often by women he has lost all confidence and all self worth, I don't think this is right, chewed up and spat out for simply being himself.

 

With all due respect, if you read some of his posts, it's not too hard to see that "being himself" might not be the best method. You're assuming he's an angel. He's also written plenty to suggest he's somewhat invasive, calculating, crude, objectifying, and socially gauche. Hypothetically, have you ever considered that maybe someone being pulled to pieces for being themselves could be justified? I can think of a lot of examples.

 

Connection you say, connection based on what? Mutual interests? Or "well he can do this for me so he is a better bet than person xyz". I don't believe in connection, you either get along with the person, the person either adds something to your life or they don't. Again I think the OP has something to offer a lady BUT well they just see the awkward, see what they don't like.

 

I agree all this "mutual interest" talk is generally superfluous, but people wanting to disassociate from the socially awkward or inept is not endemic just to women in the dating arena. Even if you look at it on its own, I'm sure there are evolutionary reasons why women don't want to date a man who's incapable of interpersonal connection. I can theorize a few. I think it's unfair of you to pin this trait on women as if it's premeditated malice and not just a natural reaction or predilection. Also, just because you think OP has "something to offer" because he gave you a few curated sentences doesn't mean anyone else does, or that he doesn't have some offputting quality or qualities he neglected to mention, or doesn't even recognize himself. It seems like you're just using OP's lack of success as a poor excuse to sound off on something that bothers you that everyone else just accepts and moves on from.

 

I have been slammed on this forum for being apparently superficial but you know what I have been out with many, many people I didn't find attractive, why because I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, clearly no women has ever given the OP the benefit of the doubt,

 

Good for you. But there's no law anywhere saying that because you gave someone the benefit of the doubt that now everyone else has to too. Everyone's circumstances are dramatically different, and, please take no offense, but you likely only went out with women you didn't find appealing because you were incapable of going out with women whom you did -- not in some observance of fairness or charity. You didn't date them because you like to give them the benefit of the doubt, you dated them because it was the best you could get and you had to give them the benefit of the doubt or else you'd have nothing. So,

 

1). You don't have to act like you did that as some sort of moral offering to all women, as if you could be dating supermodel doctors but you'd just feel too bad for all the other girls who aren't that beautiful and smart, so you want to give them a chance instead. C'mon.

 

2). You should now understand that someone with a higher sexual market value than another might not want to waste their time, resources, risk safety, etc on that person because they don't have to. Just because you're in a position where you can only date people accompanied by an asterisk doesn't mean others are -- that includes the women the OP is after. If a girl could easily go out with the socially competent, 6' guy with a better job than the OP who she actually likes, in what universe is she under any obligation to give the OP the benefit of the doubt instead? People in high demand can command better, more desirable partners. People in low demand will have to settle for less.

 

If women don't want to date OP for whatever reason, that's his problem to fix, not their's to acquiesce to.

 

You might not agree but I think there is something very wrong with a world where those who differ even slightly are ostracised because they are different.

 

"I think the world should be fair, unlike you."

Will you please stop trying to derail with this nonsense so people can discuss the real issues here? Life isn't fair. Most people on Earth have acknowledged that and moved on from this argument when they were teenagers or earlier. You're still here at 34 grandstanding like you're this righteous egalitarian, and if everyone else would just start "being fair" and stop being so mean, then your and OP's problems would be solved instantly.

 

Life isn't fair. People everywhere have to deal with tragedies, illnesses, hardships, inequities, and differing circumstances. People are here trying to have a mature discussion with the understanding that everyone getting dealt a different hand means that each hand might have to be played differently. All you're doing is trying to flip the table over saying "The game is flawed, everyone should get the same cards!" Cool, you made your point. You can make up your own game, everyone else will continue playing the current one. You're not going to change anything, and this talk doesn't add anything constructive at all. From here on out, it's safe for you to assume everyone posting here knows life isn't fair and thinks it'd be great if it was, but it isn't so we have to deal with that reality instead. Enough already, you're not a child, are you?

 

 

My issue with dating really started at 16 when I asked someone out in front of a crowd, she laughed at me and so did everyone else, frankly I couldn't care but I learnt that really women don't care. I then sent another valentines roses and never so much as got a thank you. And so on and so forth the negative experiences kept coming and they still do.

 

I'm sorry that happened to you, but there are probably some complex, nuanced reasons they happened that way that aren't as black and white as the ones you might suggest.

Edited October 13, 2019 by normal person

[ZA Dater]

 

Everyone's circumstances are dramatically different, and, please take no offense, but you likely only went out with women you didn't find appealing because you were incapable of going out with women whom you did -- not in some observance of fairness or charity. You didn't date them because you like to give them the benefit of the doubt, you dated them because it was the best you could get and you had to give them the benefit of the doubt or else you'd have nothing. So,

 

Nothing really offends me so all good on that front and yes you are quite correct, I have never been able to date the people I wanted to date and I doubt I ever will be able to, I am mostly fine with that. Such is life. I have met some great amazing people so they are definitely out there , just far too high up the tree for me to get to and they have endless choice so chasing them is completely futile and a complete waste of time.

 

In terms of the OP, do you agree he should focus on being better at communicating with women? Do you agree he perhaps add some class to his dialogue with them?

 

My point is this, which you seem to agree with, he can pull himself, do everything differently and still get the same result. So where do you compromise being who you want to be versus being who you think ladies will like?

 

I believe the OP needs to project differently when around ladies, show less desperation and one thing I have noted is some guys who have a certain degree of arrogance seem to do well when it comes to dating, women don't have control over them, they simply don't allow it.

 

Yes, I find the OP pretty crude on this forum at times so I wouldn't converse with such a person in person and most ladies would not either, classy ones at least would not.

 

My reference really is that maybe the OP is better just taking a break for a while, re centre his mind, get out of this dark space he is in. No matter how hard you chase a date you can just end up loosing anyway so chase something that can bring happiness.

Edited October 13, 2019 by ZA Dater

[mark clemson]

(Recognizing that we're generalizing about women a lot here), to chime in a bit on the earlier Elaine/ZA discussion, I think:

 

If we don't connect then I'll move on, I won't waste energy on someone I wouldn't see a future with.

 

this is very much also true for most women in dating. If looks and decent social skills are the first two hurdles, then "connection"/getting along well/rappaport/"spark" is the third.

 

Being good at hurdles 1 and 2 probably helps a lot with 3, but I don't think most women will let you skip this hurdle. In fact if a women seems to not care about connection but is jumping ahead and seems much more interested in income/material resources, to me that would be a red flag that she actually IS a gold-digger type.

 

I actually think if sex is what you're after, doing good at "hurdle 3" ("connection") will often get you there, particularly when people are younger. When two people meet at a bar and end up going home together, I think usually it was "connection" that did it. Having a luxury car might help seal the deal, but it wasn't at all the main thing.

[preraph]

Though I agree with a lot of what TrailBlazer said, I disagree that "women have their pick." Women do get to say yes or no, but there's always been a whole set of women out there who are invisible to men, who men don't bother with, don't want, just like there are men women don't want. These women have no outstanding physical assets so they get ignored. They don't have an hourglass figure or big boobs or great butt or a beautiful face. They may be under or overweight. They may be the perfect weight but simply not have any curves (no waist) or facial appeal. They may be the dreaded pear-shaped and nothing to balance that out. There's many, many girls out there like that even in high school. And as they grow older, often they get worse, not better, though there are exceptions. Some may be late bloomers or do something radical to try to improve their appearance.

 

Point being, these women have NO choice. Just like the very short guy with awkwardness has no choice. Because no one sees them as their dating pool or anybody's dating pool. Everyone aspires to someone more attractive.

 

They should be dating each other, but they usually don't. Now, later in life if they end up working together or living next door, and both are a little more mature and have something else going for them that isn't physical, they may end up accidentally getting to know each other, but they were no one's choice. And that's a shame. Way back when I was in high school, they called these girls "wallflowers." And they still exist today.

[chillii]

My ex-wife's brother had Asperger's and he struggled with women. He felt he had a lot to offer; he was highly intelligent academically but, he was very socially awkward. He was deemed a "creep" when he tried talking to girls in public.

 

The guy had a lot of hobbies, but many were strange, like train spotting and other uncommon, almost recreational activities that he'd partake with other "weird" friends of his.

 

About four years ago, he met a woman with whom, to the best of my knowledge, he is still with today. He was 37 when he met her, so it took him a long time. She's a little unique herself, but they make a good couple.

 

My ex brother-in-law may have been more severely on the spectrum, I'm not sure. The reality is that he struggled to connect with "regular" women. I know how that comes across as very patronizing, but the point is that, as another poster said, "every pot has a lid" and he found his pot and lives happily ever after.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah this is the other side of the coin. l was thinking reading this ahhh, he just needs that special someone and he'd be right. And there ya go few lines down you say he met her.

l knew someone ,never left the house this guy his whole life, loved reading , that's all he did, but at 28 he somehow met this girl two peas in a pod they married.

 

lt happens and l've often said myself too they just need that right one.

Don't know how often it happens though, a lot still seem to miss out and maybe those ones need that nudge , l've never sure about that angle tbh,

But yeah , l disagree women have their pick too , it all comes out in the wash. l've known plenty of long term single women over the years, know a few right now still , 50s , each l know would still love to meet someone but it's never happened. Most on the date site back when had been on them for years too and had had just as bad a run as guys on them. There's plenty right here even just around LS.

Edited October 13, 2019 by chillii

[chillii]

ZA Dater: I agree with a lot of what you say. Your observations are in line with what I've experienced. Except, I don't hold it against women (I'm not saying you do either). It is what it is, and it's not unique for just women to want to land the best partner they can get.

 

I find that many people feel uncomfortable with your views because, the truth can hurt. When women's SMV, especially prevalent on OLD, is highlighted in such a way that it's broken down an dissected, it can make for uncomfortable reading. It can make women seem very superficial and, almost unrealistic in their requirements.

 

It's the case for just about all species, and humans are no exception. It's survival of the fittest. Whilst "survival of the fittest" is no longer applicable, especially in western societies with welfare systems, it's still true that the fittest will thrive well beyond society's safety net which guarantees that, at a basic level, everyones survives.

 

I see it on OLD dating all the time. Women's profiles are largely geared towards how they expect a man to fit into what they expect. There's no doubt that, at least in the initial courting stages, it's absolutely paramount that a man be flexible and accommodating to a woman's needs, or he'll be quickly discarded and replaced with the next viable option.

 

A man who has the whole package, the man who has the looks, money, confidence is the one who'll last. The man who has the unique ability to know when to lead and when to follow; the man who's always in control, but never seems controlling.

 

There's nothing wrong with that. Any of it. It's all fine. But the point I've made for a long time is, at what point do women feel it's imperative for them to offer something back? When they're required to, is my answer. I mean, who puts in more effort than they need to? I'm not talking about once in a relationship when one loves their partner and both want to make the other happy. I mean, in the initial stages, it really is down to the guy to be "above and beyond" as he's competing with so many other guys.

 

Women: I have no issue with you. It's your prerogative to attract the best man you can. You could be socially conditioned to look for certain guys (and that social conditioning can vary depeding on where you grew up) but you can't defy your biological urges. And, despite saying you want a nice guy, you're actually attracted to the less than nice guys.

 

Anecdotally, when I've least wanted a relationship I've attracted the most women I've ever experienced, many of whom want a relationship with me, despite never having stated that I want one myself. Combining what I (subjectively) offer with an attitude of indifference to dating you (you being the "in general" term for whomever I'm seeing at the time), it seems that we're all attraced to the slightly indifferent and unattainable. I'm guilty of that, too.

 

 

 

 

Of course , there's plenty of superficial judgemental shallow double standard women around, no worries about that.

But it's not all, this is the thing. And anyone will mostly be like that when it's just not the right person for them anyway and they just aren't really feeling it.

You find a decent person where you both feel the same though and your into each other, you'll both over look a lot of things and work with it, go through a lot of shyt for each other if you have too, she'll want it to work just as much as he will and vise verse.Me l think it's almost a good thing if you do have to go through some big shyt, both, or you aren't perfect, you find out early in what it's really made of , what she's really made of. Me and my women have had some very biggies , situational stuff ,but we're working with them , just the other day she said why do you think l give us all my time , l want you , l want us, l want it to work , l said l know and same here too baby you know it, we both know what we have.

 

That stuffs just as hard for a decent woman to find as it is a guy , she can't help who she falls for anymore than he can and knows it doesn't come around too often when it has, maybe never .

Edited October 13, 2019 by chillii

[Trail Blazer]

Though I agree with a lot of what TrailBlazer said, I disagree that "women have their pick."

Of course, not every woman has her pick of every man. Far from it. I was just saying that men do the chasing and women do the choosing. For every subjective 9 or 10 female, there's men from the "Chads" right down to whatever number on the SMV index a guy is, who really is wasting his time, but give it a shot anyway, on the very unlikely chance she might say yes.

 

She never does, but those guys see it as like a lottery, there's a one in a million chance, but you've got to be in it to win it.

 

Undoubtedly there are women who get overlooked by most men. Undoubtedly there are women who've felt they had to "settle" because the men they're actually attracted to aren't interested.

 

For every guy who is a 5, he's still had to work to get the attention of his equivalent female 5. For every guy who is a 6, he's had to work to get his equivalent 6. Hell, for every 10, there's been a Chad who's still had to work hard to prove he's better than the other Chads.

 

My point is, for every equivalent woman to myself on the SMV index, I've had to work and make effort. On Tinder and Bumble I really only swipe women I find genuinely attractive. It's probably why I don't get a huge amount of matches. On POF where one can just message straight out, I am the one who has to work hard to stand out from the other guys in order to get a date. Sure, a girl might find me attractive, but the next step is to differentiate myself from all the other guys she also finds attractive.

 

Trust me when I say that I've seen how many men that women get to pick from. My previous FWB who I met on POF used to show me how many messages she'd receive daily. Sure, she was a good looking woman, but for every message I'd receive from a 5 or a 6, she was getting 100 messages from guys 5s all the way to Chads.

 

A skewed Sexual Marketplace Value is why I say women have their pick. And, for even the less desirables, it's perhaps more about their own standards being too high relative to where they sit on the SMV index which is why they perceive they're being overlooked. Guys will settle quicker than girls, so it stands to reason then, that girls who are unwilling to settle for men of their equal are the ones who feel like this dynamic doesn't exist.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Trail Blazer

[GuitarGuy7]

He just needs that special someone and he'd be right. And there ya go few lines down you say he met her.

 

 

lt happens and l've often said myself too they just need that right one.

Don't know how often it happens though, a lot still seem to miss out and maybe those ones need that nudge , l've never sure about that angle tbh,

But yeah , l disagree women have their pick too , it all comes out in the wash. l've known plenty of long term single women over the years, know a few right now still , 50s , each l know would still love to meet someone but it's never happened. Most on the date site back when had been on them for years too and had had just as bad a run as guys on them. There's plenty right here even just around LS.

 

 

 

 

Yeah well good luck finding the right one...

 

I meet a cute girl, my type physically, we have similar values and interests, and you know what happens? They reject me every single time... It's always the same bull**** too! I'm too busy... I'm not looking for a relationship right now... You're a friend and nothing more... Meanwhile they're ****ing some Chad on the side and get a new boyfriend within 10 months.

 

 

It's so stupid, they never see how we have so much in common and how we would be good for one another, all they see is that i'm short and have aspergers and they write me off immediately!

 

 

Women don't see me as a dating prospect at all and i'm sick and tired of it! This shoudn't be happening to me, I shoudn't be a 24 year old kissless virgin! I should be out going on dates, having sex, getting into relationships! Instead, i'm forced to rot because i'm different!

 

 

I'm sick of this ****ing game! I got screwed over from the beginning!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whatever hope I have that i'm ever going to find someone is gone! I used to cry every single night because I was so lonely and how I desperately just wanted to know what it was like to have a girlfriend! That was 3 years ago and nothing ever changes!

 

 

My loneliness is eternal... That's my prison.