Thinking of a divorce. I don't know if I should

[wtm78]

right now.. maybe you would think that i am very heartless...

 

we are separated for 4-5 months now... she has hope and wants to work on the marriage.. but to me.. i have given her 2.5 years to work on the marriage.. and i dont see her efforts.. even thou she keep saying that she did put in a lot of effort to change.. she say she wants to change to be the person i want her to be... BUT you see, that is a very toxic statement.. i didnt want her to change to be the person i want her to be... i MERELY asked her to control her emotions. be open and listen to feedback.. have a open spirit... and learn to grow and work together...

 

to be frank.. i dont think what i asked is beyond what everyone expect of a healthy relationship... but the last 2.5 years.. i dont see her active efforts to get to know me, or have an open conversation... she had been very defensive.. and once she starts to be defensive i shut down.. i am thinking why bother.. i have spent so much time and effort and she is not going to listen... so once she is defensive i shut down.. talk to me when you are open to conversation.. it has been so long... i had to give her an ultimatum... i told her.. if we cant learn to get along and work together.. we should get a divorce...

 

even after separating for 5months now... she is still defensive everytime i talk to her.. she is still telling me her issue is me... she is still not seeking help.. its really pointless talking...

 

i dont think she is going to change... i dont think i keep giving in to her also... i find the relationship very draining.. emotionally and mentally.. its affecting my health and my life.. and my work.. and every aspect of my life.. for a long time.. i am very distracted..

 

i want to work things out with her.. but yet i dont think she will be able to be open or able to control her emotions.. i am thinking of leaving... any one has any advise for me?

[FMW]

It kind of sounds like neither of you really do want to work on the marriage - you just want the other partner to straighten up and meet your expectations.

 

Sometimes things are too messed up and go on for too long and just can't be fixed. I'm not sure if that's the case here, but it sounds like a possibility.

[wtm78]

It kind of sounds like neither of you really do want to work on the marriage - you just want the other partner to straighten up and meet your expectations.

 

Sometimes things are too messed up and go on for too long and just can't be fixed. I'm not sure if that's the case here, but it sounds like a possibility.

 

 

Sounds about right.. i had not been able to address our issues from the beginning. Everytime I want to address the issue when it arises, it's either she breaks down and cry, she too emotional don't want to talk about it, she get defensive, she turn the issue back to me, she divert the issue, she drags the conversation as long as she can and hopefully everyone forget about it. She does that because she is conflict avoidant. It's like that in her family. If there is an issue everyone don't talk about it long enough and hope it goes away.

 

At the same time, I kinda feel arm twist because when I talk about our issues she tends to turn it around and say it's my fault and I have to fix me. It kinda makes me feel like she is not responsible for the breakdown but pushing all the blame to me. And if I don't fix me then there is no negotiation. It kinda feels like that...

 

Right now, she doesn't want the separation, she doesn't want to talk about the breakdown, she doesn't want divorce. She just want me to love her the way she wants to be love. Nothing wrong with the latter if it's by itself. But right now looking at the whole context I just feel arm twist. It's like "love me the way I want you to, or else you will pay"

[AMarriedMan]

I see myself dying a lonely old man.

 

You might outlive your wife anyway, although the odds are pretty good that a wife outlives her husband. Or even if you didn't, you might end up being separated from her owing to you and her requiring different levels of care and being placed in different care facilities. That happens more often than you'd think.

 

You wrote you have kids. Even if you're widowed or divorced, you'll still have them to watch over you and visit you or even take you in when you're old. If you end up in an old people's home, chances are that home will be full of lonely old women. You won't have to die a lonely man.

 

I don't know if you're allowed to drop links here but I just read a newspaper article online that reported on a study according to which widowed men tend to die sooner than men of the same age whose wives are still alive. Widowed women, however, tend to carry on as usual. Their husbands dying has no effect on their life expectancy.

 

That ought to give you pause. If men whose spouses die have their life expectancies shortened because they're grief-stricken, then it raises the question why the same does not hold true for women who lose their spouses. Are they not grief-stricken when their spouses die?

 

My guess is that to the extent the difference is explained by emotional factors and not completely by things like old men neglecting their medical needs after their wives pass away it boils down to women's reasons to have men in their lives being utilitarian to a degree in the first place. A husband is wanted as long as he provides some utility, mainly a paycheck. But once he is retired and starts to get sick and frail, he becomes unwanted.

 

Why would you want someone who sees you in that light in your life anyway? Your children are much more likely to really love you than your wife particularly when your marriage is in a bad place to begin with - because they're your flesh and blood.

Edited October 28, 2019 by AMarriedMan

[elaine567]

I don't know if you're allowed to drop links here but I just read a newspaper article online that reported on a study according to which widowed men tend to die sooner than men of the same age whose wives are still alive. Widowed women, however, tend to carry on as usual. Their husbands dying as no effect on their life expectancy...

 

My guess is that to the extent the difference is explained by emotional factors and not completely by things like old men neglecting their medical needs after their wives pass away it boils down to women's reasons to have men in their lives being utilitarian to a degree in the first place. A husband is wanted as long as he provides some utility, mainly a paycheck. But once he is retired and starts to get sick and frail, he becomes unwanted.

Women tend too look after men in their old age. She manages his medical needs, she makes sure he goes to the doctor, she makes sure he takes his tablets, she cooks and cleans up after him, she calls an ambulance if he needs it... Without that support men often fade away and die, they give up, they neglect themselves. Men may not be as close to their children either, their friend networks may not be about support and care.

Women rarely get that support from men, so they often have to sort out their own care, they get support from friends, family and children, so it makes no difference whether they are alone or attached.

 

Of course there are some men who look after themselves well and some who care for their ailing wives, but generally the "care" is still left to women.

[AMarriedMan]

Women tend too look after men in their old age. She manages his medical needs, she makes sure he goes to the doctor, she makes sure he takes his tablets, she cooks and cleans up after him, she calls an ambulance if he needs it... Without that support men often fade away and die, they give up, they neglect themselves. Men may not be as close to their children either, their friend networks may not be about support and care.

Women rarely get that support from men, so they often have to sort out their own care, they get support from friends, family and children, so it makes no difference whether they are alone or attached.

 

Of course there are some men who look after themselves well and some who care for their ailing wives, but generally the "care" is still left to women.

 

The above rings true to a large extent.

 

The emotional and financial toll of being with women is often considerable. Men would be wise to take care of their own personal stuff and also seek out other sources of emotional support than their girlfriends and wives from a young age on. Although that would deprive women of a sort of currency - their monopoly on the provision of certain types of care to men - it would be a good thing. Only when a man and a woman are capable of standing on their own feet will it be possible for them to find the true measure of their compatibility.

 

The prevailing sex roles do not lend themselves to building up men's resilience in situations where they're no longer capable of fully looking after themselves. Men are taught to soldier on and get the job done in the face of difficulty which is valuable in and of itself but most don't handle the loss of independence very well. For example, there is nothing inherently unmanly about opening up about your inner demons to a trusted male friend. That friend can very well be an anonymous stranger on the internet, if need be. Everyone needs a reality check and feedback from time to time. Warmth of personality and sex have no correlation whatsoever. But too much closeness may be frowned upon by a lot of people. Much of that has to do with the fact that emotional and sexual closeness get conflated in a lot of men's minds.

 

Because of women's innate hypergamous instincts, it is downright foolish for a man to depend on his woman in anything critically important such as maintaining his emotional balance. All of us should also learn to clean up after ourselves and cook our own dinners. For a man, emotional intimacy with his female partner should always be strictly a matter of choice and not a need.

 

But I think a fair number of women wouldn't actually like it that way. Many find themselves uncomfortable having their men spend time away from friends pursuing their hobbies or socializing with their friends.

Edited October 28, 2019 by AMarriedMan

[elaine567]

I know hypergamy is uppermost in many unhappy men's thoughts, but whilst it is a real thing in choosing a mate, once chosen most women will put up with just about anything for the man they love.

Here wtm does not have a wife who is seeking out a better mate, he has a wife who wants HIM to be a better person.

A man who does not criticise her, a man who does not blame her, a man who has patience and who is kinder...

It seems to me to be a common problem in marriages, she only goes seeking out other men when she feels all avenues to a better relationship are closed in her marriage.

The bitter man shouts "hypergamy", but the "fault" is a lot closer to home.

 

IMO women are easy. Be genuinely nice to a woman and she will never leave.

By nice I do not mean do the dishes in exchange for sex or turn into a simpering sycophant...

Respect, loyalty and treating her like a human being is often lacking. Emotional availability can be non existent...

Men turn into zombies or boors...

Disconnection is the order of the day and she starts looking around...

[Marc878]

OP you don't need her permission to end the marriage.

 

It sounds like you're incompatable. You probably made a mistake marrying her. Don't compound that by staying.

 

Life is short.

[AMarriedMan]

I know hypergamy is uppermost in many unhappy men's thoughts, but whilst it is a real thing in choosing a mate, once chosen most women will put up with just about anything for the man they love.

 

The divorce statistics tell a different story. 70-80% of all divorces are initiated by women.

 

Here wtm does not have a wife who is seeking out a better mate, he has a wife who wants HIM to be a better person.

 

I get the impression that OP here has a wife who might be mentally unstable but it's hard to say for sure what's going on. OP hasn't specified how his wife screws up time and again so as to be unreliable in his opinion.

 

A man who does not criticise her, a man who does not blame her, a man who has patience and who is kinder...

It seems to me to be a common problem in marriages, she only goes seeking out other men when she feels all avenues to a better relationship are closed in her marriage.

 

What I think is that women are capable of quite a bit of rationalization. It is culturally acceptable for women to use certain tools of emotional manipulation that men do not have at their disposal, including crocodile tears and playing the victim. In many such cases, that's what we're looking at.

 

The bitter man shouts "hypergamy", but the "fault" is a lot closer to home.

 

Context, please. I wasn't talking about OP's situation but the general set up where men haven't realized that emotional support can be obtained from friends, too, and that conflating emotional closeness and sex is a stupid idea. I pointed out that because of the hypergamous nature of women, a man is ill-advised to burden his female intimate partners with his insecurities too much.

 

IMO women are easy.

 

How many women have you been an intimate partner to?

 

Be genuinely nice to a woman and she will never leave.By nice I do not mean do the dishes in exchange for sex or turn into a simpering sycophant... Respect, loyalty and treating her like a human being is often lacking. Emotional availability can be non existent...

Men turn into zombies or boors...

Disconnection is the order of the day and she starts looking around...

 

There is way too much to unpack in that for a simple reply this. If only it were that simple.

 

At the top of the list of what I wish more women would do is assume responsibility for their communication. They often read a ****load into any interaction but fail to communicate their own thoughts and feelings adequately and at the right time.

[Mr. Lucky]

The emotional and financial toll of being with women is often considerable... it is downright foolish for a man to depend on his woman in anything critically important such as maintaining his emotional balance.

 

Bitter and inapplicable in any general sense to relationships at any stage in life.

 

You get what you expect...

 

Mr. Lucky

[elaine567]

The divorce statistics tell a different story. 70-80% of all divorces are initiated by women..

I said "just about anything", there is a limit...

[AMarriedMan]

I said "just about anything", there is a limit...

 

So, you're saying that when women initiate divorce, it's nearly always the case or even usually the man having done something wrong?

[AMarriedMan]

Bitter and inapplicable in any general sense to relationships at any stage in life.

 

How is not relying on your partner for things like your own emotional balance bitter and inapplicable? Managing one's own emotional balance is everyone's own responsibility. Or at least that's what the consensus among the wise people here seems to have been as long as I have been a participant in conversations here.

 

You seem to be shooting from the hip here and just responding to a perceived tone. But I think Elaine did not like it when I agreed with her on that men tend to rely on their wives quite a bit which shows in how the life expectancy of a widower is cut short by his spouse's death but not vice versa - and took that idea a little further saying that a man is unwise to for a man to rely on his intimate female partner as the sole source of emotional closeness.

[mark clemson]

... but noone knows how she hurts herself when she is emotion, how she threaten suicide. how she stab herself with scissors, and smash a mug into her face and it broke and she wants to continue smashing into her face.. and how she left herself roll down the staircase... so ya, everyone tells me i am not man enough...

 

she is a people pleaser, her self esteem is based on how please others are.. so when there is something that i am not happy about, her whole inner self collapse...

 

.. so i told her i am really very tired and drink quite a bit i was going to black out soon and ask what's wrong.. then she just suddenly burst into tears and when to squat in a corner in the public space crying uncontrollably.. that day i was thinking to myself what had i gotten myself into.... she just squat there and cry and cry for 1.5hrs... i just stood there helplessly.... so yeah.. got to give it to her.. my patience had run out...

 

 

I think you need to realize that she has problems that are "above your pay grade" in the sense that you don't know how to fix them (assuming they can be fixed). Even if you DID know you'd have to recuse yourself, being her husband. You've been a "white knight" for years, caring for someone who's at some level an outpatient in your home. And it's so ingrained you don't even realize it.

 

Your wife has serious problems that she needs serious help with. IMO the real mistake has been to not insist that she get that help as soon as these things started happening and support her while she gets it.

 

I'm not sure there's a benefit to having her look after you in your old age. What will happen if you have dementia or something and she decides she has to stick herself with scissors, etc again? She'll be dead and you won't even realize what happened.

 

Walking away at this point is irresponsible unless/until you've made a serious, concerted effort to get her help. If it works, staying with her should become much more tolerable. If she simply won't or it doesn't work after REALLY trying, then walking away will be your only option unless you want to continue caring for her.

 

That's what I'm seeing here. Apologies if I missed something you wrote or am not understanding something important.

[Mr. Lucky]

How is not relying on your partner for things like your own emotional balance bitter and inapplicable?

 

Well, the bitter part was this:

 

The emotional and financial toll of being with women is often considerable.

 

I'd argue at least the financial toll much greater on women, who often put their careers on hold for children and family.

 

And the inapplicable part this:

 

it is downright foolish for a man to depend on his woman in anything critically important such as maintaining his emotional balance.

 

You're confusing two separate things. Certainly we're all responsible for maintaining health, both physical and emotional.

 

But you can't have a relationship without vulnerability, communication and dependence, as a couple ideally you're a team, a partnership in life.

 

So to imply you won't - or shouldn't - depend on each other is nonsense...

 

Mr. Lucky

[AMarriedMan]

Thanks for the clarifications.

 

Well, the bitter part was this:

 

"The emotional and financial toll of being with women is often considerable."

 

I'd argue at least the financial toll much greater on women, who often put their careers on hold for children and family.

 

In marriage, there are no separate finances. Women, on average, choose men who earn more than they do for husbands, as they should. In case a couple divorces, there are legal structures in place in society to make up for any losses incurred by being home with the kids for as long as it takes for them to be old enough for daycare.

 

Also, the fact that relationships take a big emotional toll on men does not negate the fact that they can be hard on women, too. Relationships are hard. Period. Otherwise we wouldn't be here spending so much time talking about them.

 

And the inapplicable part this:

 

"it is downright foolish for a man to depend on his woman in anything critically important such as maintaining his emotional balance."

 

You're confusing two separate things. Certainly we're all responsible for maintaining health, both physical and emotional.

 

But you can't have a relationship without vulnerability, communication and dependence, as a couple ideally you're a team, a partnership in life.

 

The continuation to that quote was this: "Men would be wise to take care of their own personal stuff and also seek out other sources of emotional support than their girlfriends and wives from a young age on. Although that would deprive women of a sort of currency - their monopoly on the provision of certain types of care to men - it would be a good thing. Only when a man and a woman are capable of standing on their own feet will it be possible for them to find the true measure of their compatibility."

 

The context was men apparently ending up becoming a burden to their wives at an old age evidenced by the relatively high mortality of old men after losing their wives. To prevent that, I was arguing for men developing their own networks of support in addition to their wives. Depending on their wives for emotional support as in having her as the sole provider of such support is a stupid idea and I stand by that. Of course, you're going to share a degree emotional intimacy as a couple. But it is harmful to both the man and ultimately the wife if she is his only or even main source of emotional closeness.

 

So to imply you won't - or shouldn't - depend on each other is nonsense...

 

What I think is nonsense is for a man to depend on his wife for maintaining his emotional stability. He is supposed to be her rock and not the other way around, if anything, although I would hate to be responsible for keeping my wife sane. The man's got the overabundance of gametes and no ability to gestate fetuses. He's got to bring a lot more to the table than the woman.

 

That, unfortunately, makes full emotional intimacy impossible to an extent between a man and a woman who are a couple. To be intimate, one must be vulnerable. But vulnerability is unsexy in a man because vulnerability is weakness. Some weakness is ok and necessary as it is human and because there has to be a connection. In a heterosexual intimate relationship, the basic rule is that the male must be less vulnerable than the female. A human male is much more than just a sperm donor. A mother with small children in tow is incredibly vulnerable in a state of nature, which is what shaped all our instincts that guide our emotions having to do these things. She must feel as if her man were capable of providing her security.

Edited October 28, 2019 by AMarriedMan

[wtm78]

I think you need to realize that she has problems that are "above your pay grade" in the sense that you don't know how to fix them (assuming they can be fixed). Even if you DID know you'd have to recuse yourself, being her husband. You've been a "white knight" for years, caring for someone who's at some level an outpatient in your home. And it's so ingrained you don't even realize it.

 

Your wife has serious problems that she needs serious help with. IMO the real mistake has been to not insist that she get that help as soon as these things started happening and support her while she gets it.

 

i wasnt and never tried to rescue her. i was rather up front from the beginning. i told her to seek help, if not i am leaving. she always say yes she will, but when i am there, she doesnt seek help. when i left, she sits there and cry.. i dont think she would ever pick herself up to seek anything..

 

 

 

I'm not sure there's a benefit to having her look after you in your old age. What will happen if you have dementia or something and she decides she has to stick herself with scissors, etc again? She'll be dead and you won't even realize what happened.

 

i cant count on it... there were times when i was sick.. i told her i was having a headache. and later she would ask me how is my tummy, she will get meds for me.. ever since, i never ask her to help me with meds no matter how sick i am... i think trust was also broken...

 

 

Walking away at this point is irresponsible unless/until you've made a serious, concerted effort to get her help. If it works, staying with her should become much more tolerable. If she simply won't or it doesn't work after REALLY trying, then walking away will be your only option unless you want to continue caring for her.

 

 

i have spoken to her sister about it.. sought her help to get wife to go to a psychiatrist. but her sister is somewhat upset that i think that my wife has any issue.. she felt that my wife had been always a happy person until we got married..

 

 

 

That's what I'm seeing here. Apologies if I missed something you wrote or am not understanding something important.

 

nono.. i appreciate your time... i havent been able to sleep... i have no one to talk to also.. been checking this post.. and appreciate the effort for you post.. maybe in some ways, this keeps me sane..

[wtm78]

for me, all i want is for my wife to listen to my frustrations and see how we can work out our problems..

 

and for my wife, she is just sitting there saying that she wants to be love the way she wants first... kinda reminds me of the Bruce Almighty Love Me Scene (

)

 

 

all these while i had been watching so many tony robbins' marriage series.. something that he said struck me the most. there were times tony robbins asked the wife, how is your relationship with your dad. and wife say dad's love her and she is daddy's little princess. and tony just said, that b******, he had so much love for you and he gave you so much love, he had taught you that you dont need to do anything for love. Your husband never stood a chance..

 

it sounded kinda like my wife, she is the youngest, everyone loves her and dotes her. until now, her sister still fuss about her. i can see their family, even if someone does something wrong, they will turn a blind eye. they never talk about it, never confront a wrong.. they just let things slide... my wife's nieces and nephews are naughty.. no one says anything.. i guess that builds up a child's confidence.. but i am not sure if its right way.. so yeah. my wife can do no wrong in her family's eyes.. everyone is full of love for her.. sometimes i have groceries in my house that i didnt buy. because wife's sister or mum brought them over. my wife didnt even know.. neither did i...

Edited October 29, 2019 by wtm78

[Mr. Lucky]

What I think is nonsense is for a man to depend on his wife for maintaining his emotional stability. He is supposed to be her rock and not the other way around

 

Gender stereotypes.

 

That, unfortunately, makes full emotional intimacy impossible to an extent between a man and a woman who are a couple. To be intimate, one must be vulnerable. But vulnerability is unsexy in a man because vulnerability is weakness.

 

AMarriedMan, too many old John Wayne movies for you. The best relationships come from finding the right partner and letting them "in". There are certainly risks, but without them no rewards...

 

Mr. Lucky

[elaine567]

Your wife was completely happy in a world that appreciated her, in a world that built up her self esteem, in a world that loved her.

 

You come along and you are not happy with her and thus systematically you have torn her down to the crying zombie she now is.

You may not have meant it, but that is what has happened.

 

Yes she was no doubt a bit of a delicate flower, but she functioned as an independent woman.

Now she is a complete mess.

You do not function well as a couple.

Let her go so she can be happy again.

You are not capable of giving her the love she needs, her expectations are too high. She comes from a very high "love" environment, anything less and she just crumbled.

 

Many women expect a lot emotionally from men, but men are often raised in rougher environments.

To some men criticism, anger, shouting, yelling, snide comments and "banter" is normal and not to be taken to heart, to some women it shows a lack of love and without love they are lost...

[Mr. Lucky]

so yeah. my wife can do no wrong in her family's eyes.. everyone is full of love for her..

 

wtm78, I think Mark has pointed out the dynamic in your marriage.

 

You meet a person who, because of personality and upbringing, quickly becomes dependent on you to take charge. And this can work initially, it's nice to feel wanted and capable.

 

But fast forward a decade, this neediness becomes a burden. And it's confusing for both partners, because the old roles no longer work. Can't blame your wife for struggling, she hasn't changed what she is - or isn't - doing. You've just decided it no longer works for you.

 

I think this message of change is what you have to tell her. You've carried the bulk of responsibility and decision-making to this point, not willing to do it any longer. And while you'll be somewhat patient as she works through the process, not going to live your life this way.

 

Chances probably aren't great she'll understand or make the adjustment but you should try. Most likely, some tough choices ahead. Keep posting...

 

Mr. Lucky

[AMarriedMan]

Gender stereotypes.

 

As valid as ever. Consider the fact that in Scandinavia where people are the freer than anywhere to choose their occupations according to their own personal preferences anyone who verbally defendes "stereotypes" will be shouted down. Despite that, the distribution of men and women in various occupations is as stereotypical as always.

 

AMarriedMan, too many old John Wayne movies for you.

 

I will never forget one feminist I dated when I was much younger. She was particularly staunchly against the sort of "gender essentialist" thinking all progressives love to oppose these days. (Not that I'm an essentialist in any sort of cookie cutter sense when it comes to psychological sex differences because nature always has a way of producing a range including all manner of outliers.) But her expectations of how a man was supposed to behave and carry himself in a relationship were precisely what you'd expect from an evolutionary psychological point of view. Her ideological position had absolutely nothing to do with her personal approach. All her ideology did was add confusion to her personal life and whole lot of intellectual gymnastics.

Edited October 29, 2019 by AMarriedMan