Should I "fight for our friendship"?

[GPLeChuck]

I'm friends with Alice. Alice is friends with Barb. Barb feels threatened by my relationship with Alice because it makes Alice spend less time with Barb. Barb has been guilt-tripping Alice, telling her how she abandons her oldest friend to hang out with some random guy. (Alice knew Barb long before we met.) Alice feels obligated to Barb, so she basically goes along with whatever Barb says. As a result, the number of things we are "allowed" to do together has gradually reduced. It has reached a point where the relationship as it is now is not meaningful to me and will not be able to continue in its present form.

 

 

So I have two options. Option 1 is to tell Alice I won't be seeing her anymore, wish her luck and move on. Option 2 is to fight for what was once a great relationship by telling Alice that what Barb is doing isn't quite right. I'd appreciate any thoughts on this issue.

 

 

As I see it, the reason to go for option 2 is that there is at least a chance, however small, that Alice will reconsider and set healthier boundaries with Barb. I didn't tell her that before because I felt it'd look like I'm attacking her friend, which would only make things worse. At this point I'm willing to say it because if I don't, the relationship will definitely end anyway.

 

 

 

However, it's not like Alice is an abused child who doesn't even realize that what's happening to her is wrong. We are all over 40. So either Alice doesn't value my company as much as I value hers, or she feels so obligated to Barb that she's willing to go along even with a somewhat selfish and unreasonable demand. In that case, it's probably not my business to explain Alice how she ought to live her life.

 

 

Note: at first, I thought that Alice was just trying to politely end things with me and came up with this excuse to avoid hurting my feelings. So I gave her several opportunities to stop seeing me without risk of confrontation or hurt feelings. In each case, she deliberately chose to reach out. For this and several other reasons I feel her excuse is genuine.

[basil67]

I feel there's an option 3 here: it's about telling Alice how you feel without demonising Barb. For example, is Alice making plans with you and then cancelling because of something Barb says? If so, tell Alice how you feel when she cancels.

[preraph]

She's a grown woman. If she's letting Barb boss her around, I don't see the point fighting for her attention. I mean, that's weak. Also, she may only be using that as an excuse or something. In my experience, women have their own functioning brains and if they really don't want to do something, they don't. They aren't always up front and honest about why, though. (I'm a woman)

 

She may have felt it was too much but decided to use that excuse (not spending enough time with others) instead of just saying "No" to outings.

 

I wouldn't quit her on account of it, but I would stop stewing over it and just see what she does about asking you to do things when it's left up to her. That will give you a good idea of what is going on.

[basil67]

Quick question: Is your friendship with Alice is purely platonic in intent? Because the friendship style of most men is pretty casual and generally no threat to anyone. How often do you want to see Alice compared with the rest of your buddies?

[GPLeChuck]

I feel there's an option 3 here: it's about telling Alice how you feel without demonising Barb. For example, is Alice making plans with you and then cancelling because of something Barb says? If so, tell Alice how you feel when she cancels.

 

 

She already knows. Each time she refuses an activity, she says that both she is sorry ("I wish I could go, but you know about my friend Barb") and apologizes to me for not being able to make it. She doesn't do anything inconsiderate like canceling plans at the last moment; rather, she says ahead of time "I cannot do that because my friend needs me".

 

 

Quick question: Is your friendship with Alice is purely platonic in intent? Because the friendship style of most men is pretty casual and generally no threat to anyone. How often do you want to see Alice compared with the rest of your buddies?

 

 

Initially we dated for about 6 months. It went well and we started spending a fair amount of time together, all weekends when we were both free and an evening during the week. This is what initially triggered Barb's anxiety.

 

 

We're not dating anymore. I'm seeing another woman (it's going well too so far). Alice says that ideally she'd have a boyfriend, but she cannot date because of Barb.

 

 

We both are pretty busy, so without interference we'd probably spend half a day together maybe twice a month.

Edited October 3, 2019 by GPLeChuck
spelling, clarification

[GPLeChuck]

She may have felt it was too much but decided to use that excuse (not spending enough time with others) instead of just saying "No" to outings.

She had several opportunities to just stop seeing me completely where she wouldn't have to say anything to me and therefore risk an outburst. In each case, she decided to reach out rather than drop the relationship completely. I guess it still leaves open the possibility that maybe she doesn't want to break it up completely, but doesn't want to see me as often as before either.

 

 

 

I wouldn't quit her on account of it, but I would stop stewing over it and just see what she does about asking you to do things when it's left up to her. That will give you a good idea of what is going on.

I've tried that for a while and what happens is that she still reaches out and still proposes to do things together, but the variety of activities she proposes becomes more limited. If I propose an activity we haven't done in a while (like hiking), she may say she cannot do that on account of her friend.

 

 

Two things are extremely clear from this experiment. First, I know what the current rules are, and they won't work for me. Second, it's pretty clear that the rules will only get more restrictive in the future.

 

 

What I can't quite figure out is whether it's worth trying to change this. If I felt the relationship was ending for a good reason (for example, if we weren't interested in each other anymore), I'd be OK with it. But I feel it's ending for the wrong reason while we still are potentially interested. That's why I'm considering trying to fix it. But maybe I'm wrong: as you said, if she really didn't want to go along with what Barb tells her, she's not held at gunpoint or anything.

 

 

Another reason I'm hesitating is that the thought of "quitting on her" also crossed my mind. If she tells the truth and she actually enjoys my company and is genuinely sorry she cannot see me, then maybe being able to at least do a limited number of activities together is helpful for her. What do you think the chances of that are? As I mentioned, the relationship according to the current "rules" is not meaningful to me, but if it was helping her, I'd consider going along with it a bit more. I do understand that breaking it off completely might be beneficial as well because at least she'd be able to move on.

[mark clemson]

So I have two options. Option 1 is to tell Alice I won't be seeing her anymore, wish her luck and move on. Option 2 is to fight for what was once a great relationship by telling Alice that what Barb is doing isn't quite right. I'd appreciate any thoughts on this issue.

 

You might as well try, but I wouldn't pin too high hopes of success on it. As pointed out, either this woman is weak minded or she's using the old friend as an excuse. Either way it's not looking overly hopeful. The suggestion to not bash Barb while doing this is probably a good one.

[preraph]

So has Barb got some condition that makes her "need" Alice? Do you have any insight or explanation about that? Because I don't know anyone in 68 years who has ever curtailed their socializing because of a mere same-sex friend. I mean, not suggesting she drop her at all, but seems like there ought to be room for one more. So wondering if she has an explanation. Like is Barb newly divorced or ill?

 

If not, I'm saying this is her excuse for not getting together more. But if she wants to continue sometimes, then go for it. Although the other piece of this that makes no sense is why she balks at, for example, hiking. Is there some reason for this? Is she just a lot more sedate than that or a homebody? Could she have anxiety? Something doesn't add up.

[snowboy91]

Is there any reason why the three of you can't hang out together?

[GPLeChuck]

Either way it's not looking overly hopeful.

Yep, noted.

[GPLeChuck]

So has Barb got some condition that makes her "need" Alice? Do you have any insight or explanation about that? Because I don't know anyone in 68 years who has ever curtailed their socializing because of a mere same-sex friend. I mean, not suggesting she drop her at all, but seems like there ought to be room for one more. So wondering if she has an explanation. Like is Barb newly divorced or ill?

One part of it is that Barb went through some traumatic experience in the past. I don't know what exactly, and whatever it was, she's healthy enough now to be traveling extensively. But it's one of the things that makes Alice feel sorry for Barb.

 

 

Another reason is that Barb is retired or close to retirement. Alice is her best friend. Barb is divorced, although not recently. Barb feels that if Alice leaves her, at her age she won't be able to find anyone else and she'll be lonely forever. Her anxiety is so bad that a few times she started going to a therapist. I'm not sure whether it was a genuine desire to get better or a tactic to make Alice feel guilty.

 

 

 

But if she wants to continue sometimes, then go for it.

Unfortunately, at this point it doesn't work for me anymore. I need to spend a certain amount of time with a person to feel a meaningful connection, and under the new rules we won't be spending enough time together. So I need to either break up or to improve things somehow.

 

 

 

Although the other piece of this that makes no sense is why she balks at, for example, hiking. Is there some reason for this? Is she just a lot more sedate than that or a homebody? Could she have anxiety? Something doesn't add up.

I guess it's not so much the activity itself as the duration or timing. For example, a good hike takes at least half a day (neither of us is interested in short hikes). This might be more time than she is allowed to spend. Another issue is that when we are together, Alice keeps her phone handy because Barb sometimes checks up on her. Since reception may be poor on some trails, this might be another concern.

[GPLeChuck]

Is there any reason why the three of you can't hang out together?

Alice brought it up once. I misunderstood what she said and said no. My guess is, she relayed it to Barb the same day and Barb got upset. The next day, Alice clarified to me what she meant and I clarified to her what I meant. But at that point, the damage was already done. Alice feels she cannot risk hurting Barb again, so she doesn't want to try any new things. Alice's current solution is to do whatever Barb tells her because that's least likely to upset Barb.

 

 

 

I never met Barb, so there's no guarantee that us hanging out together would work anyway. I'm not one of the people who gets along with absolutely everyone, so chances are, we wouldn't all get along even if we tried.

[basil67]

From what I'm seeing, Alice is enabling Barb's anxiety. Is Alice aware of this?

[GPLeChuck]

I would guess no. I think she thinks that doing what Barb wants is best because that calms Barb down.

[Timshel]

We're not dating anymore. I'm seeing another woman (it's going well too so far). Alice says that ideally she'd have a boyfriend, but she cannot date because of Barb.

 

 

Have you asked your current gf for advice? Surely she knows Alice and will be able to give much better guidance for maintaining your friendship with her.

[Timshel]

Also Chuck, it really would seem that Alice just likes Barb more than you. Try to be ok with that.

 

Ask her to go on a double date with you and your gf.

[GPLeChuck]

Also Chuck, it really would seem that Alice just likes Barb more than you.

Yeah, looks like that.