Further thoughts on why people can’t just say no if they’re not interested

[TimmyBoy]

A common gripe on dating forums goes like this: “why can’t women just day if they’re not interested instead of making excuses/ghosting you?”

 

The answers people usually give are to do with women being uncomfortable saying no directly, perhaps because of bad experiences of guys blowing up at them or because of being socialised into being “nice”. The hope is that you will “get the hint” and stop asking.

 

I don’t agree with this explanation, but I understand it.

 

Here’s what I don’t understand: if you want someone to “take the hint”, why not let them take the hint? My experience is that if you try to “take the hint” when someone does this then they vehemently deny that they are doing this, they INSIST that they are telling the truth BEG AND PLEAD for you to believe them, usually with some bleeding heart story designed to make you feel bad for calling them out, and act super offended that you think they are lying.

 

Examples of what I mean:

 

1. I started chatting to a girl on a dating site. It seemed to be going well, so we exchanged numbers. Again, it seemed to be going well, so we arranged to meet at a restaurant.

 

Without warning, she simply failed to turn up at the restaurant and ignored my calls and texts asking where she was. I was angry about this and sent a final text saying that I was a nice guy and I would have understood if she wasn’t interested but leading me on like this really wasn’t cool.

 

A few hours later she texted me apologising profusely and claiming that she had been mugged on the way to the date. I felt awful for having chastised her for standing me up. She insisted that she was still interested and so we arranged to meet again.

 

Then what happened? You guessed it. She told me, on the night of the date, that she had to go for work drinks because it was really important for networking and and generating new work. I got annoyed and she acted all offended that I didn’t believe her.

 

2. I was in the pub for work drinks recently. While I’m not the kind of guy who usually hits on barmaids (I get that they are paid to be nice etc.), on this occasion I actually got on really well with the barmaid and so I asked for her number. She gave me her real number and asked if I wanted to take her out for dinner. I asked if she was sure and if she wasn’t just trying to get rid of the random guy in the bar, but she INSISTED that she wasn’t and that she would have just told me if she wasn’t interested, or perhaps told me that she already had a boyfriend.

 

I sent a few messages over the next few days and she didn’t reply. I saw where this was going, but it seemed strange given how enthusiastic she had acted at first. So I made one last attempt to call her. She didn’t answer, but she rang back straight away. She apologised for not responding to my messages and said she’d had some bad news lately. Again, she insisted she was interested and that she’d like to go out for a Thai meal, so we arranged to go out the following Saturday night. She said she’d text to confirm, but “100%, Embankment station [in London] on Saturday”.

 

I sent her a WhatsApp message on the Friday morning saying I had booked us a table at a Thai restaurant near Embankment station. It showed only one tick, so I was concerned she may have blocked me. I called her and her phone rang, so I concluded that she must have blocked me - it can’t have been because her phone was off. I sent her a text message asking if she had blocked me on WhatsApp and saying that I would rather she had just told me she wasn’t interested but “I hope you are well”.

 

Then she texted back saying “OMG I didn’t block you, it was my friend’s funeral this morning, I didn’t get my WhatsApp messages because my phone was out of memory”.

 

I felt awful about hearing this, so I spoke to her later that day and apologised. I asked if she still wanted to go out and she said yes.

 

When I got into London, on the night if the date, she texted me saying she was soooooooo sorry but she was running late due to having got drunk the previous night and she was frantically getting ready but she would be at least an hour. I said that was ok but asked her to confirm what time she would actually make it I in. No response.

 

***

 

In these cases, it cannot be said that I was the creepy guy who wouldn’t take no for an answer or that I was the aggressive guy who would blow up at them for saying no. I bent over backwards to give them the chance to back out and they insisted that they were being straight with me. If these girls wanted me to take the hint, why did they deny that this was what they were doing? Why not just back out when I gave them the chance? Why did they go out of their way to persuade me NOT to take the hint if that was what they wanted?

Edited October 6, 2019 by TimmyBoy

[Twizzlestick]

Barmaid scenario

 

Evidence;-

 

Missed messages - excuse;- bad news

Missed messages #2 and ignoring date - excuse - funeral

As above. 2nd excuse - phone memory

 

 

Mm hmm . One random event - plausible. But the mixture of the above? Nope. She’s fibbing.

 

Mugged girl scenario

 

Either she’s an incredibly unlucky girl. Or she is fantastically callus to use such a lie. If it is a lie she used to to invoke you into feeling guilt. Sinister woman. I actually think she stood you up, became enraged when you told her off, her pride bust out and she sent that to make you feel guilt. Honestly there’s some nasty minded folk out there and they often wear halos.

 

For you, I sense you’re multiple messaging these girls. Resist the temptation. It is tempting, to invoke a response. But it makes it worse. One message, leave it with them.

 

You were right to explain your annoyance at being stood up. That’s down right rude to do that to someone.

 

With barmaid girl I wouldn’t have sent a message accusing of being blocked. It can sound like you’re neurotic (however true) . Just keep it unemotional, if that happens in the future either ignore or if you must, write “since I’ve not heard from you, I’m presuming you’re no longer interested in the date. All the best”

 

Can’t help why. Some people have no courage and are buried so far up their own backsides they need a torch. That’s probably why actually.

[TimmyBoy]

The thing is, I feel like I shouldn’t have to ignore it. There should be consequences if someone does something rude or disrespectful.

[elaine567]

The thing is, I feel like I shouldn’t have to ignore it. There should be consequences if someone does something rude or disrespectful.

 

Consequences?

Like what exactly?

[TimmyBoy]

Consequences?

Like what exactly?

 

Being called out on their behaviour.

[TimmyBoy]

The only explanation I can think of is this: there is a distinction between (1) really caring about doing the right thing and (2) not wanting to feel guilty or be portrayed as the villain of the piece. These are related but not the same.

 

An example of this would be the abusive ex-husband and father who fights the custody battle in court because he doesn’t want to be labelled as the monster who is banned from seeing his own kids but doesn’t actually make an effort to see them when he has the opportunity.

 

So in my case, perhaps they are lying, but they feel guilty when I figure it out and call them on it, and their egos can’t handle being portrayed as liars who led someone on. So they invent new lies to explain away the old ones.

 

Next time I will just abort at the first sign of nonsense.

Edited October 7, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[SumGuy]

It could be their first reason or even a subsequent reason was legit but your reaction is turning them off. You could come off as angry and righteous which in my view women take as warning signs. You don’t need to yell to seem angry, you don’t need to be wrong to seem righteous.

 

That you feel there should be “consequences” seems more about validation, and is the opposite mindset of a man who is confident, and not easily ruffled or put off balance.

 

Polite, understanding and confident is the way to go when this stuff happens, in tone and word non-judgmental. Don’t jump through hoops or bend over backwards to accommodate, some reasonable flexibility sure but no need to let people waste your time but also no need to call them on it. After all they are not your children you’re trying to teach manners to.

 

Just my 2 cents but you can decide the kind of man you want to be.

[alphamale]

never tell a girl you are "nice guy"

[rightondude]

I think a lot of people feel like since they'll (hopefully) never see you again, they can spin whatever yarn helps get them out of a date without hurting any feelings. I think I had 4 girls give me the "I have pneumonia" excuse. I was beginning to think I was typhoid Mary 2.0 or something. The thing is, most decent guys will suggest an alternative and then they just have to come up with another lie after another lie until you finally give up.

 

Maybe this is easier than the tried and true "it's not you it's me I'm not ready to date I need to find myself I met someone else" soft-lie, because you won't catch an argument back when you get sick, mugged, die, etc...

 

Even with all the BS, lies and excuses, I still don't think the woman owes you any kind of explanation or apology. She just doesn't want to be with you. People that do want to be with you will be. Find one of those people.

Edited October 6, 2019 by rightondude

[smackie9]

Being called out on their behaviour.

They have been called out when they said no not interested, that is why people ghost or avoid. A lot of sore souls out there when they get told no. Dealing with guys after telling them is a horrible experience.

[TimmyBoy]

It could be their first reason or even a subsequent reason was legit but your reaction is turning them off. You could come off as angry and righteous which in my view women take as warning signs. You don’t need to yell to seem angry, you don’t need to be wrong to seem righteous.

 

What’s wrong with being angry and/or righteous? Is it not sometimes valid?

 

That you feel there should be “consequences” seems more about validation, and is the opposite mindset of a man who is confident, and not easily ruffled or put off balance.

 

Being confident does not mean being a doormat and allowing people to get away with disrespecting you.

 

Polite, understanding and confident is the way to go when this stuff happens, in tone and word non-judgmental. Don’t jump through hoops or bend over backwards to accommodate, some reasonable flexibility sure but no need to let people waste your time also no need to call them on it. After all they are not your children you’re trying to teach manners to.

 

Just my 2 cents but you can decide the kind of man you want to be.

 

I call anyone on it if I see them being rude or disrespectful. If they’re adults then they have even less of an excuse.

 

I think where we differ is that you appear to believe that being confident means not standing up for yourself.

[TimmyBoy]

They have been called out when they said no not interested, that is why people ghost or avoid. A lot of sore souls out there when they get told no. Dealing with guys after telling them is a horrible experience.

 

But like I explained in my original post, I understand this.

 

What I don’t understand is why, after they ghost you, they continue to insist that they were not ghosting you instead of letting you take the hint.

[TimmyBoy]

I think a lot of people feel like since they'll (hopefully) never see you again, they can spin whatever yarn helps get them out of a date without hurting any feelings. I think I had 4 girls give me the "I have pneumonia" excuse. I was beginning to think I was typhoid Mary 2.0 or something. The thing is, most decent guys will suggest an alternative and then they just have to come up with another lie after another lie until you finally give up.

 

Maybe this is easier than the tried and true "it's not you it's me I'm not ready to date I need to find myself I met someone else" soft-lie, because you won't catch an argument bac when you get sick, mugged, die, etc...

 

Even with all the BS, lies and excuses, I still don't think the woman owes you any kind of explanation or apology. She just doesn't want to be with you. People that do want to be with you will be. Find one of those people.

 

They don’t owe an explanation or apology for what?

[smackie9]

Sumguy nailed it. Being revengeful is not standing up for yourself. Yer being a sore soul.

[smackie9]

But like I explained in my original post, I understand this.

 

What I don’t understand is why, after they ghost you, they continue to insist that they were not ghosting you instead of letting you take the hint.

You are a smart guy, you see what they are doing, so why play into it. At the first sign of bull $%^&, hit that delete button. You blocking them has a bigger impact than words.

[TimmyBoy]

Sumguy nailed it. Being revengeful is not standing up for yourself. Yer being a sore soul.

 

Yes it is. The alternative is letting them get away with treating you that way. How is that “standing up for yourself”?

[TimmyBoy]

You are a smart guy, you see what they are doing, so why play into it. At the first sign of bull $%^&, hit that delete button. You blocking them has a bigger impact than words.

 

Because when I let them know that I would rather they had just said they weren’t interested they insist that they were telling the truth. Why do that? I got the message so what’s the problem?

[preraph]

Women have more trouble saying hurtful things because women have and are expected to have a lot of empathy. Don't you think women are generally more empathetic than men? There's always exceptions, of course. They don't want to be hurtful. Plus realize they don't hardly know you and don't know how you'd take hearing "I didn't like your personality" or "In person, I just didn't find you attractive."

 

And it is true that men often get very ugly online when women they never even met reject them. It's also true men often get very ugly in person when women they do know reject them. It's not safe for women to go around making men mad just because you feel you want to argue the point with her about why she doesn't like you. I mean, why else would you be mad she didn't contact you to tell you the hurtful thing?

 

So in the world of online dating, you all just need to accept that ghosting means "I'm not interested in you for whatever reason and don't want to debate it."

 

Really, everyone please just hang that on your wall.

[TimmyBoy]

Women have more trouble saying hurtful things because women have and are expected to have a lot of empathy. Don't you think women are generally more empathetic than men? There's always exceptions, of course. They don't want to be hurtful.

 

Being stood up is more hurtful.

 

Plus realize they don't hardly know you and don't know how you'd take hearing "I didn't like your personality" or "In person, I just didn't find you attractive."

 

For the third time... that explains why they ghost you or make excuses. What I want to know is why, when you call them on it, they continue to insist that they were telling the truth and that they really are interested, beg and plead for you to believe them and act offended that you don’t.

 

Eg if you tell me you can’t make it because you are “sick”, but the message you want me to receive is “I’m not interested, please leave me alone”, and I told you that I got it, why would you continue to insist that you really were sick?

 

And it is true that men often get very ugly online when women they never even met reject them. It's also true men often get very ugly in person when women they do know reject them. It's not safe for women to go around making men mad just because you feel you want to argue the point with her about why she doesn't like you. I mean, why else would you be mad she didn't contact you to tell you the hurtful thing?

 

So in the world of online dating, you all just need to accept that ghosting means "I'm not interested in you for whatever reason and don't want to debate it.”

 

Really, everyone please just hang that on your wall.

 

Preraph projection strikes again. Please show me where I said anything about debating their decision.

Edited October 6, 2019 by TimmyBoy

[preraph]

Well, right up there where you say you confront them about it!! And everything in my answer still stands. They don't want to say the real reason because of everything up there I said. The real reason is they didn't like you or find you attractive, end of story.

 

Stop trying to argue with people who aren't interested in you and ghost you. Just go away.

[alphamale]

if you (as a man) know how to read body language accurately then you'll know who likes you and who doesn't (most of the time). nothing needs to be said

[TimmyBoy]

Well, right up there where you say you confront them about it!! And everything in my answer still stands. They don't want to say the real reason because of everything up there I said. The real reason is they didn't like you or find you attractive, end of story.

 

Stop trying to argue with people who aren't interested in you and ghost you. Just go away.

 

No, I didn’t say I confront them about their reason for not wanting to go out with me, I said I confront them about ghosting me. You do realise that’s not the same issue?

 

You need to start reading my posts properly before you try to argue with them.

[Versacehottie]

The thing is, I feel like I shouldn’t have to ignore it. There should be consequences if someone does something rude or disrespectful.

 

Wrong. Well, you are wanting to change the dynamic of the world with a "should" rather than deal with your specific, actual situations. Stay with me here for a second, as i know you gave the real world specific situations of these girls you were trying to date. However, you still filter much of what happens in those situations and the overall post here is what PEOPLE SHOULD DO rather than WHAT YOU CAN DO. A person can only control themselves. Would it be nice, if people did what you feel is the right/respectful thing? Of course. But as your examples suggest, it is not what people do.

 

I think your own personal bias has caused you to go off the handle on these girls and then apologize and still try, which further perpetuates the harm you are inflicting on yourself. It's hypersensitive and keeping you in a state where you color what is happening in your dating life or what might happen with a certain focus and less of a clean slate. I'm definitely not saying what they were doing is right ("mugged" is about the craziest excuse I've ever heard for not showing up for a date; i mean points for creativity!) but what you can do is keep it moving. If they don't want to go and jerk you around, why do you want to date them at all? Sucks to have wasted some time but actually no different than any effort you are making to attempt to make a connection with some girls. I get that it's disappointing and leaves you dejected but that just says to me that you have to invest lower in terms of your attachment before there is something "there", i.e. take with a grain of salt. And also that you probably need to work on reading cues better. Just because a girl (or guy) talks to you and exchanges contact info or matches on an app doesn't mean it will turn into anything or that there is an obligation there. Nor is there an obligation to let you know they aren't interested any longer. You seem to want a formality there that is not often given or is weeks/months down the road of dating where someone would tell you they are not interested.

 

The main point is you won't change people but you can change your reactions or strategies or approaches. Just like water in a stream, take the path of least resistance and that leads you the right way, to what you want. Wasting time with time waster girls is a no brainer, don't get upset and let it steal your mojo or make you bitter, just don't waste time or consider it a waste of time. good luck

[lavenderandvelvet]

I recently ghosted a guy. And I’ll tell you why.

 

Matched on an online dating site. Exchanged a handful of messages. He wanted to connect on WhatsApp. I said sure.

 

Later I had 4 missed calls on WhatsApp. No messages, no texts. I obviously don’t know who it is do I ignore. The next morning I wake up and see several missed calls on my phone and WhatsApp. Now this guy is looking clueless or controlling.

 

I send a message to ask him what his number is, to throw him a lob. He says - you ignored my calls. This time he sends a text and then proceeds to call six times. Never asking if it was a good time, when I am free.

 

Can’t trust anyone without basic common sense on calling people and introducing yourself. Also people who call several times in a row tend to be controlling. It is a giant red flag.

 

So I ignored.

[stillafool]

Because when I let them know that I would rather they had just said they weren’t interested they insist that they were telling the truth. Why do that? I got the message so what’s the problem?

 

What I don't understand is why after they flake the first time with you, you ask them out again only to get flaked AGAIN. Why not move on to someone else who might be more interested. Also maybe you should lower your standards if this ghosting/flaking is a repeated thing.