If you believe in heaven...

[divegrl]

This 1 minute meditation by Jack Kornfield on Heaven or Hell might be helpful.

 

[mark clemson]

There is no way to "earn" heaven. You can be a wonderful and kind person, but without belief you can't enter. Why? Because God demands absolute perfection. That's a standard no human can meet because we are sinful and God is holy. Break one part of the law, you broke all of it. Eve ate the fruit and condemned all of humanity. God doesn't grade on a curve. One little rule. Ever told a lie? Even a white lie? You are guilty of all of the law, forever. And yeah, that's harsh.

 

 

Indeed. Too harsh and doesn't make any sense IMO. Who explained to you that the Deity thinks this way? The Deity only thinks in either/or terms? That seems odd as the universe He created is FULL of shades of grey.

 

I don't understand the view postulates a Deity who thinks that way. I would think that an all-knowing being who sees and understands us and our struggles would be forgiving without regard to specific path (such as Christ). Accepting Him (the Deity, via whatever path) and being a decent person (complete with multiple errors and set backs) should be enough, I would think, to avoid being tortured eternally after death. (Not necessarily enough to "earn" heaven.)

 

I don't accept a view of the Deity where he is so petty as to torture ants after they die for no good reason. You get tortured forever for the sins of another person (Eve)? This makes absolutely zero sense to me. Especially if I actually believed she was real. Don't buy it.

[major_merrick]

One thing I am certain of is that the First and Last ain't gender specific.

A dude on a throne is not my God, to each their own.

I just noticed this one. I think God is actually gender-neutral. He can't create anything that He isn't, and He created male and female. The Bible refers to God as "He" to make it easier for us, and also as a picture of power, as males have traditionally held the power in most societies. Same thing with the throne stuff. It is an image to command respect. God set up men in the dominant position as a way of keeping order. I'm still working with that one, since I've been feminist-leaning most of my life.

 

 

Indeed. Too harsh and doesn't make any sense IMO. Who explained to you that the Deity thinks this way? The Deity only thinks in either/or terms? That seems odd as the universe He created is FULL of shades of grey.

It was explained to me in the Bible. The God of the Old Testament has some pretty rigorous standards. Jesus' sacrifice comes between sinful people and God's standards. And yeah, it seems harsh/unfair/whatever. I get it. But there's an essential truth to how the world works - the guy with all the power makes the rules! It is human ego that gets in the way of us accepting the fact that He is God and we are not. Scripture says, "no man can serve two masters." The idea in that statement is that you WILL have a master. You don't get to be your own master. You can choose a God who created you, wants to love you and give you perfection, and never wanted hell or even sin for you. God can even help you in your choice if you ask and admit that sin is hampering your choice. Or you can freely choose Satan and his rebellion and his hell. God is a gentleman - He won't force your choice.

 

The universe is full of shades of gray because of sin. Sin clouds clear judgement and makes things more complicated than they are. And sometimes you get choices in this world where your only option is to sin, and choose which one has the least consequences. The world is broken. You can't accurately see God with the eyes of this world.

[mark clemson]

OR - the Bible, while containing useful wisdom and recording Jesus and others' genuine gnostic experiences, is simply wrong on many counts. As are many of the interpretations made of it. That's the simple answer I see to all this.

 

I agree the Deity is in charge. However, I don't see any sense in believing that the Deity is so morally capricious. While I suppose the Deity may punish people, I would think that His punishments would be just. To say otherwise would be to say that He is unjust (and thus not perfect).

 

Is torturing people above and beyond just punishment for their crimes morally correct? I think the answer is obvious even to us humans: no, torturing people, even those who've committed crimes, is morally wrong. The act is itself immoral and a crime. So is torturing people for the misdeeds of others. Another injustice.

 

Perhaps you don't agree? But I think:

 

Torturing people for their crimes is morally wrong.

The Deity, being the Deity, is morally perfect (or as close to that as it is possible to be).

Therefore, a belief that the Deity tortures people (for their crimes, or especially for the crimes of others, such as Eve) must be incorrect.

 

Therefore, philosophies that espouse this view are incorrect.

 

It's not that I don't think the Deity is in charge. I do. I just don't think He's immoral and so would not do the things described.

[major_merrick]

Perhaps you don't agree? But I think:

 

Torturing people for their crimes is morally wrong.

The Deity, being the Deity, is morally perfect (or as close to that as it is possible to be).

Therefore, a belief that the Deity tortures people (for their crimes, or especially for the crimes of others, such as Eve) must be incorrect.

I quoted this to be specific about the points I am answering.

1. God doesn't torture people. Hell is a place of separation. That's all. The flames etc. that happen there are caused by Satan, his demons, and others that are condemned to that separation. God has no desire to cause anybody to suffer. But once separated in hell, anything can happen. The biggest torture of all is realizingg the choice you've made and that you can't unmake it.

 

2. God is perfect. Whatever He does is perfect. Whether or not I understand it or agree with it. He is not morally capricious, but in fact He is quite consistent. Want to rebel? OK, you can. And you can do it elsewhere. Separation is man's choice, not God's. That, and there's some natural consequences on the earth for sins you commit....but both believers and unbelievers get to see those.

 

3. God doesn't punish us specifically for other people's sins. But when Eve sinned, she literally broke the whole system. Sin entered the world, and became part of your nature and mine. Kind of like a computer virus that infects everything. What's the fix? Shut down and reboot. That's why we have Jesus, that's why we have the End Times. And I'll throw another thing in while I'm at it.... Death is actually an act of mercy. While "the wages of sin is death" you wouldn't want to live forever in a messed up world. So even God's punishment can be merciful for those who believe.

[mark clemson]

1. God doesn't torture people. Hell is a place of separation. That's all. The flames etc. that happen there are caused by Satan, his demons, and others that are condemned to that separation. God has no desire to cause anybody to suffer. But once separated in hell, anything can happen. The biggest torture of all is realizingg the choice you've made and that you can't unmake it.

 

Ok, but again, these views make no sense IMO if the Deity is morally perfect. Focusing on this first para: The Deity would certainly know that satan, etc are in hell and would cause you pain. Therefore He would know that sending you there forever is a form of torture. Therefore Him doing so for no good reason, rather than, for example, allowing you to remain unconscious after death would in fact be torturing you.

 

It would still be immoral.

 

Also "rebelling" for many Christians appears to mean anything other than accepting Jesus specifically as a path to God. Even for those who are simply ignorant of Jesus' existence. Again, IMO, when logically examined this view leads to an immoral Deity and must therefore be incorrect.

 

My view is that there are many paths to the Deity, including the simple one of simply accepting Him into your heart. Jesus is definitely one valid way, just not the only one.

 

Sure, it's up to the Deity to decide how people get to Heaven (assuming it exists). But having only one strange way that not everyone knows about and condemning all others to an eternity of torture again doesn't make sense IF the Deity is just and/or morally perfect.

 

Again, to me the logical conclusion is that these views are simply incorrect.

[major_merrick]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except by me." Jesus is either the one and only way, or He is not the way at all. Pretty clear.

 

The thing about moral vs. immoral is that God decides it. We humans don't. whatever He says goes, no matter how we feel about it. Sure, we might think that sending someone to a place of separation knowing that torture might happen is an immoral act. But an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God says that the punishment/separation is just. Our agreement with the idea is immaterial because God is sovereign. There is no source of morality but Him. Human nature (which is sinful) really wants to argue with that idea and reject it. You only accept that idea through faith. God gives us reason and logic, but we don't use that to the exclusion of faith. Our minds are small and imperfect. His is not.

[vla1120]

I do not believe in Heaven or Hell. I am atheist, but if there was any man made religion I could relate to, it would be Buddhism.

[spiritedaway2003]

I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual. I think there's probably a heaven. If there's a heaven, there is probably a hell too. Just like if there is evil in the world, there is assuredly goodness too. One doesn't exist without the other. Like yin and yang. The universe is ever in a constant state of balance. Just like we humans -- we are always ever seeking a balance.

 

I don't believe in religions. I don't care what people believe in or not, as long as the religion doesn't believe in killing each other.

 

Do I think I will go to heaven? No. Hell? No. Maybe nirvana exists? None of us will know until we die so who knows. There are many great unknowns.

 

Knowing whether there's a heaven or hell doesn't influence me in any way. Any good I've done or choose to do, I did it simply because I wanted to. It' not any more than when you see a kid fall down, and you innately want to rush over and lend a helping hand. Any hurt or harm I've also caused, it was without ill intent but I have to own them too.

 

I have cringed at the notion that the more good you do, you would 'earn' tip the scale to go heaven...well, whatever motivates you, I guess...

 

I believe in everything and nothing, if that makes any sense.

[mark clemson]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except by me." Jesus is either the one and only way, or He is not the way at all. Pretty clear.

 

 

Fair enough, if you believe he said that. I think he most likely didn't or it was misquoted. I think, as a true believer, Jesus would have been offended by this idea. He would know that others have found the Deity - he was Jewish, so he would have known that others prior to him must have created his religion. But he's saying none of them have come to the Deity. I very much doubt he believed that.

 

 

The thing about moral vs. immoral is that God decides it. We humans don't. whatever He says goes, no matter how we feel about it. Sure, we might think that sending someone to a place of separation knowing that torture might happen is an immoral act. But an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God says that the punishment/separation is just. Our agreement with the idea is immaterial because God is sovereign. There is no source of morality but Him. Human nature (which is sinful) really wants to argue with that idea and reject it. You only accept that idea through faith. God gives us reason and logic, but we don't use that to the exclusion of faith. Our minds are small and imperfect. His is not.

 

 

You are saying, essentially, that something immoral becomes moral because the Deity decides to do it. I don't think this is true. It wouldn't be a moral action, it would still be an immoral one. It would be the logical impossibility of an immoral action done by God.

 

Again, the logical conclusion is that "sending someone to a place of separation knowing that torture might happen" isn't something God would do. Accepting that assertion as true is the error IMO.

[E-mc2]

The thing about moral vs. immoral is that God decides it. We humans don't. whatever He says goes, no matter how we feel about it.

 

There are many things in the bible decided by god that I consider immoral. Slavery being one of them.

 

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

 

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

 

Are you really going to say that slavery can be moral as long as god says it's ok? The worst part is the new testament never condemns slavery. I often wonder if slavery would have been abolished sooner if god just put in the bible, [thou shalt not take people as slaves anymore, it is an abomination to the Lord]. It took 1800 years after Jesus until the world as a whole made progress in abolishing slavery. Sucks for all the people who were slaves down through the ages.

[mark clemson]

I'm pretty sure there is actually some statements by Paul (2nd Paul who was Saul) implying slavery is ok in the New Testament as well. Perhaps I'm not remembering correctly. Again, though this is another reason I don't take the Bible as the fully and completely true will of the Creator. So agree with you insofar as that is an issue.

 

Taking this kind of stuff as the actual will of the Creator creates the paradox (which I don't believe by the way) of there being men who are morally superior to God. That's patently ridiculous.

[d0nnivain]

I'm pretty sure there is actually some statements by Paul (2nd Paul who was Saul) implying slavery is ok in the New Testament as well.

 

I can't quote it but actually what Paul was saying that it doesn't matter if a person is a slave or free, they can still be Christian. He was also saying that people didn't have to follow all the old Jewish rules about circumcision & everything else to be a Christian.

[The Outlaw]

I struggle to believe in everything, and I unfortunately don't share my parents faith. I'd like to believe that I will make it to heaven, but at this point, I just don't know.

[mark clemson]

I can't quote it but actually what Paul was saying that it doesn't matter if a person is a slave or free, they can still be Christian. He was also saying that people didn't have to follow all the old Jewish rules about circumcision & everything else to be a Christian.

 

 

Donnivain, I think I was thinking of Ephesians 6:5-9 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

 

To be fair to Paul, he does seem to be urging forbearance by masters and believe and be promising justice or some form of recompense. Not clear if he means earthly (in time) or in the afterlife for the slaves. So, perhaps less immoral than I thought. It still doesn't make sense, in my view, that the Deity would approve of slavery in any situation where there are better options available for that person.

[mark clemson]

Of course, he also put in Timothy 6:

 

 

"Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved.

Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain."

 

 

So I guess it's his way or the highway. Arguing just means I am conceited, understand nothing, etc. No possibility that a Christian slave owner could be horribly abusive to a slave and thus raise questions in his mind I suppose?

 

Not at all sure what he's referring to in the "sound words of Jesus". I suppose Jesus DID preach humility, but not sure this actually implies he approved of the practice of slavery itself.

[BC1980]

I struggle to believe in everything, and I unfortunately don't share my parents faith. I'd like to believe that I will make it to heaven, but at this point, I just don't know.

 

You sound like me. I've struggled with belief in God since I could think for myself. I'd love to have faith that we all meet up after we die, but I just don't have that kind of faith. I've had to resign myself to the fact that I will always be a doubter. I'm still trying to accept that and find a way to live with it.

 

I wish I could have faith in God and an afterlife. It's really awful to think that this life is all there is. I hate to think that when my parents die one day, I won't see them again. It makes me sad to think that my consciousness could simply cease to exist when I die.

 

I sincerely hope there is a heaven. If there is, I think God will let me in because I've tried my hardest to have faith over the years. If he doesn't, I'm okay with that because I think there is genuinely nothing else I can do to give myself more faith. There are simply no more apologetics books I can read or prayers for faith. I am who I am at this point.

[Trail Blazer]

There's a big difference between salvation and sanctification. Salvation is done for you by Jesus, no matter what awful things you do or have done. The thief on the cross next to Jesus lived a life of crime, came to faith last minute, and was told "today you will be with me in paradise."

So, what is the point of living a decent life, treating people well, really, doing anything that the bible teaches, if the only and guaranteed way to get into heaven is by faith? And, you only need faith at the very last moment. Hence why I deal with self-righteousness Christian jerks all the time. They know in their own mind they have faith and that they're going straight to paradise, be damned how they treat other people. Sorry, but that is wrong on so many levels.

 

Sanctification is what happens in the Christian life after you are saved. You try to become a better person as a response to your salvation - a way of giving thanks and expressing love to God and others. Some people (like me) have farther to go at this sanctification thing than others. And if you meet a Christian who is a total jerk, well they may have started out a LOT worse. You really don't know. Coming to faith doesn't mean you are perfect - you still sin. But God is working on you slowly but surely.

I don't need salvation in order to be a better person. I don't need to derive my morality from scripture. I'm a decent, moral person because it's innate to me. I treat people with decency and respect because it's how I wish to be treated in return.

 

It's true that some Christians probably started out worse before they discovered their faith, but then there's many I've met, generally from the more privileged side of things, who are sanctimonious, self-righteousness a-holes who are completely intolerant of anyone who's not fundamentalist like them.

 

To those sorts of people, I am like the plague, because as an atheist, the devil has corrupted my mind and to converse with me would be dangerous.

 

There is no way to "earn" heaven. You can be a wonderful and kind person, but without belief you can't enter. Why? Because God demands absolute perfection. That's a standard no human can meet because we are sinful and God is holy. Break one part of the law, you broke all of it.

It's this exact reason why I turned my back on religion. What about people in countries who don't even know about Jesus? Where's the line drawn there?

 

Before European settlement in North America, Australia, New Zealand and the like, the indigenous peoples of those places had their own gods and/or spiritual connection to their lands. What, so they go straight to hell forever for not accepting a concept they've never had any exposure to?

 

Eve ate the fruit and condemned all of humanity. God doesn't grade on a curve. One little rule. Ever told a lie? Even a white lie? You are guilty of all of the law, forever. And yeah, that's harsh. But Jesus paid the price we were supposed to pay, and all we have to do is believe and accept. Totally free for us, at His cost. God would have everybody to be saved. You, me, Ted Bundy, Hitler...everybody! Repentance and belief is required to accept Jesus' sacrifice and be made clean. Then we respond, beginning wherever we're at.

 

You don't seriously beleive in the creation myth, do you? You actually beleive that the Book of Genisis is a literal account of what happened? Come on, man. The Story of Adam and Eve, Original Sin, it's all allegory. With all of the genomic evidence that science has uncovered, there is absolutely no way that the origins of humans can be traced back to two individual people.

 

So I can come from a nasty, immoral, promiscuous, violent, greedy, foul-mouthed, thieving background...and I get to go to heaven. As a response, I try to be better than I was before. I probably have farther to go at sanctification than most...

As a response? I don't think it's "as a response". I think that people are guided bt their own moral convictions. You could be a a-hole and it doesn't matter, you still get to go to heaven. Nothing else matters except going to heaven, which is why so many fundamentalist Christians are actually right wing a-holes.

 

but salvation is free and guaranteed.

Salvation is far from free. In fact, I would agrue that god isn't offering salvation at all. "If you don't believe in me, I will punish you for eternity." That sounds far more like extortion than salvation.

[E-mc2]

It's really awful to think that this life is all there is...............It makes me sad to think that my consciousness could simply cease to exist when I die.

 

Yeah I know the feeling.... the feeling of like, "wow, life is so anticlimactic". One way I've come to peace with this is the hope that I live a long and productive life. I want to see my kids grow up and be happy. I really suspect that if I can make it into my 70's or 80's I'll feel like life ran its course and I'll be ready and willing to go. Life wasn't meant to be forever, religion or not.

[E-mc2]

Before European settlement in North America, Australia, New Zealand and the like, the indigenous peoples of those places had their own gods and/or spiritual connection to their lands. What, so they go straight to hell forever for not accepting a concept they've never had any exposure to?

 

There is a line of doctrine in christianity that says "those who never heard of jesus basically get a free pass". So I would add that proselytizing taken to it's logical end actually sends more people to hell than it saves. Better off never hearing of jesus than hearing and denying. The thing is christians have a way around everything but this one puts them in a tight spot. They'll never say, yes all those people who never heard of jesus automatically go to hell because that is obviously unfair and coldhearted. But telling everyone about the gospel really seals the fate of a lot of people doesn't it?

[The Outlaw]

You sound like me. I've struggled with belief in God since I could think for myself. I'd love to have faith that we all meet up after we die, but I just don't have that kind of faith. I've had to resign myself to the fact that I will always be a doubter. I'm still trying to accept that and find a way to live with it.

 

I wish I could have faith in God and an afterlife. It's really awful to think that this life is all there is. I hate to think that when my parents die one day, I won't see them again. It makes me sad to think that my consciousness could simply cease to exist when I die.

 

I sincerely hope there is a heaven. If there is, I think God will let me in because I've tried my hardest to have faith over the years. If he doesn't, I'm okay with that because I think there is genuinely nothing else I can do to give myself more faith. There are simply no more apologetics books I can read or prayers for faith. I am who I am at this point.

 

I tend to struggle because I have for years, and even at my age, I always wonder why some of these horrible things happen day in and day out and why exactly he allows it to just go on. I just don't have any proof to support that he exists but I want to believe that he does. I'd very much love to see everyone that has passed on before me again when it's my time but I'm skeptical at this point.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

I've met some pretty strange, arrogant, moralizing atheists.

 

Same. I have one in my family who refuses to speak to me, or anyone else in my family or his family, because we believe in Jesus Christ. Arrogant aptly describes the mindset.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

I find christians to be extremely arrogant when it comes to issues of morality.

 

I know kind good hearted christians

 

Which is it?

[major_merrick]

So, what is the point of living a decent life, treating people well, really, doing anything that the bible teaches, if the only and guaranteed way to get into heaven is by faith?

 

To those sorts of people, I am like the plague, because as an atheist, the devil has corrupted my mind and to converse with me would be dangerous.

 

 

You don't seriously beleive in the creation myth, do you? You actually beleive that the Book of Genisis is a literal account of what happened? Come on, man.

 

 

I took some excerpts of what you said. I'm tired and I can't write a book. And btw, I'm fairly new to faith, so my answers may not be as good as a preacher's. I'll do the best I can.

 

The point of living a decent life is to please God. If you are saved, you kinda fall in love with Him. I'm still working on that part. But if you love someone you want to make them happy. Same thing with God. There's also rewards that surpass salvation itself. Pardon my poor explanation, but those Christians who don't do good deeds still go to heaven, but it will be "as though through fire." Meaning, they get there and get to rejoice with other believers, but there are some rewards you get in heaven for faithful service. I don't really know what they are, but Jesus talks about "laying up treasures in heaven" and I think He speaks literally.

 

And no, not all Christians will think you are the plague. Or will even try to convert you against your will. I have friends who are atheists, and we still get along. But at the end of the day, there's still an invisible line - a community I'm part of that they aren't. And you can sense the difference.

 

You may doubt the Book of Genesis, but I believe it is literal. And I have a rational mind. To me, science doesn't offer an adequate explanation of creation that can rule out God. In fact, God gives enough evidence in the natural world that even non-believers who have never heard of Him can come to faith. I suppose we could start a Creation vs Evolution thread and compare evidence, but to me the evidence to support Darwin's theory is not complete. And when I look at nature around me, I see evidence of God's hand all over the place. Things like bacteria and honeybees and granite crystals that could only have happened instantaneously. Note that humanity's default position throughout most of history has been religion of some kind. I think that is because people in previous centuries were closer to nature.

[Trail Blazer]

I took some excerpts of what you said. I'm tired and I can't write a book. And btw, I'm fairly new to faith, so my answers may not be as good as a preacher's. I'll do the best I can.

Sure, okay. Appreciated.

 

The point of living a decent life is to please God. If you are saved, you kinda fall in love with Him. I'm still working on that part. But if you love someone you want to make them happy. Same thing with God. There's also rewards that surpass salvation itself. Pardon my poor explanation, but those Christians who don't do good deeds still go to heaven, but it will be "as though through fire." Meaning, they get there and get to rejoice with other believers, but there are some rewards you get in heaven for faithful service. I don't really know what they are, but Jesus talks about "laying up treasures in heaven" and I think He speaks literally.

That logic is fundamentally flawed and completely at odds with Jesus' teachings to "love thy neighbour" and "turn the other cheek." God promotes worshiping him as a far more important virtue than treating your fellow human with decency and respect. Why would it please god that you treat your fellow man correctly if he doesn't punish an individual for treating them poorly, or even, you know... raping and murdering someone? Because hey, repent your sins, have faith in God as the almighty creator and *voila* you're in heaven!

 

The bible claims that god loves every one, yet his demands are very much at odds with a loving being. He loves himself by demanding he is worshipped. He weights the worship of him so much higher than the treatment of others that there's very little wonder why Christianity is so intrinsically linked with right-wing extremism, white supremacy, general racism, human rights violations and, of course, voting in the cretin who's currently occupying the White House.

 

God leads by example and his teachings are that megalomania is the most virtuous of traits. Throughout the whole bible, the human rights violations are staggering. And since you take the Old Testament's teachings as a literal account of how the universe was formed, you condone and even worship being (the Old Testament god) that is so abhorrently vengeful and bloodthirsty that it's quite hard for me to seperate that aspect from a perhaps otherwise very decent human being that you probably are.

 

And no, not all Christians will think you are the plague. Or will even try to convert you against your will. I have friends who are atheists, and we still get along. But at the end of the day, there's still an invisible line - a community I'm part of that they aren't. And you can sense the difference.

My ex-girlfriend's best friend was a fundamentalist Christian. Whilst my ex was more close to agnostic, but somewhat spiritual, I, being an atheist, was very much disliked. I don't try to get into these discussions with people, but when I see other people's religious views being pushed onto people, when clearly the content being espoused was complete rot, I'm not just going to sit there and listen to it.

 

It's definitely a challenge. I could never date someone with strong religious convictions. I always swipe left to anyone who professes to love Jesus in their dating bio. It's never going to work, no matter how hot they are.

 

You may doubt the Book of Genesis, but I believe it is literal. And I have a rational mind.

I don't doubt you're a rational person in general. However, being a rational person doesn't preclude you from thinking irrationally on certain things. Sorry, but you believe that Adam was "fashioned from dust" and Eve was subsequently created from his rib. That belief is completely out of line with any rational thinking. The science proves this.

 

To me, science doesn't offer an adequate explanation of creation that can rule out God.

Science doesn't offer an adequate explanation to you? That's prob ably because you've never given science a chance because you are blinded by your faith, and any available piece of evidence that runs contrary to your faith you dismiss.

 

In fact, God gives enough evidence in the natural world that even non-believers who have never heard of Him can come to faith. I suppose we could start a Creation vs Evolution thread and compare evidence, but to me the evidence to support Darwin's theory is not complete. And when I look at nature around me, I see evidence of God's hand all over the place. Things like bacteria and honeybees and granite crystals that could only have happened instantaneously.

Observation of physical matter in our universe isn't evidence of god. How is it evidence of god? Dude, you believe that the Book of Genesis is a literal account of how the world was created. You're never going to accept any evidence which runs contrary to that. I only mentioned it in my previous post that the science proves, through studying the human genome, that we couldn't possibly have started our origins from two people.

 

You claim that the natural world is proof of god? I say, have abother look around and you might actually notice the natural world offers so much evidence for Darwin's theory of evolution. You only need to look at the physical make up of people from different regions of the world as evidence for evolution. Africans are generally tall, lean and dark. Eskimos are generally short, pale and densely built. Have a think about why and get back to me...

 

Note that humanity's default position throughout most of history has been religion of some kind. I think that is because people in previous centuries were closer to nature.

Humanity's default position throughout history has been a deference to religion due to an absence of knowledge. When the desire, the yearning for knowledge outweighs our understanding of the physical universe, it's little wonder that people's deference to a higher power to explain phenomena that science had yet to understand and explain was constant.

 

We can now explain so much more of the natural world through science. Sure, science can't disprove something which exists outside of space and time (god), but it doesn't have to. Science is explaining so much about our world that centuries and millenia ago, was attributed only to a creator or higher being.

 

When religious people defer back to religion and say, "but science hasn't proven... xyz" as means to counter scientific teachings, the argument is illogical and misplaced. God-of-the-gaps is what religious people defer to, whilst neglecting to acknowledge that the burden of proof rests with the one making the claim. And the proof, not a random observation, but actual evidence for the existence of god is the only proof worth referencing.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Trail Blazer