If you believe in heaven...

[amaysngrace]

I know how water is formed. And yea I shouldn't have said Big Bang but it’s usually the explanation to oppose creation. I’m not use to having to debate religion, I know only one non-believer and we just don’t go there.

 

Anyway, gotta run but as far as I know the facts of how water came to earth are still being discussed in the science community.

[Trail Blazer]

Jesus wasn’t the Creator. Even Christians don’t believe He was.

 

His parents were Mary and Joseph so that would be impossible for Jesus to be the Creator or else who created Mary and Joseph?

 

Anyway, I hope you have a lovely day! I’ve got some things on my to-do list that need doing.

Wait, what? Who said Christ was the creator? Nobody here did. I don't understand where you got that from.

 

Have yourself a fantastic day. I think I'm going to get up and make myself some breakfast!

[Trail Blazer]

Nobody knows for certain the origin of earth's water. Science is of the view that it came from a number sources, chiefly being asteroids which collided with earth early in its inception.

[amaysngrace]

You acknowledged Christ died on the cross for our sins and said that Muslims don’t believe in sin.

 

These are differences in our religions but the Creator is agreed upon. We all believe in God, well the vast majority of humans do.

 

Enjoy your food!

[major_merrick]

The bible claims that god loves every one, yet his demands are very much at odds with a loving being. He loves himself by demanding he is worshipped.

 

And since you take the Old Testament's teachings as a literal account of how the universe was formed, you condone and even worship being (the Old Testament god) that is so abhorrently vengeful and bloodthirsty that it's quite hard for me to seperate that aspect from a perhaps otherwise very decent human being that you probably are.

 

I don't doubt you're a rational person in general. However, being a rational person doesn't preclude you from thinking irrationally on certain things. Sorry, but you believe that Adam was "fashioned from dust" and Eve was subsequently created from his rib. That belief is completely out of line with any rational thinking. The science proves this.

 

Science doesn't offer an adequate explanation to you? That's prob ably because you've never given science a chance because you are blinded by your faith, and any available piece of evidence that runs contrary to your faith you dismiss.

Again, I'll handle some excerpts so I don't turn this into a science vs. faith thread.

 

Yes, I accept the Old Testament God. And yes, that includes the things that modern culture sees as genocidal/vengeful/bloodthirsty. But in that context, those acts were the exception, rather than the rule. Sometimes God is so disgusted by the acts of humanity that he's forced to act. For example - the Canaanites. The worship of false gods such as Baal and Molech involved human sacrifice. When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, the entire population basically wanted to commit homosexual rape. God pretty much said "Enough of that" because those cases had passed beyond salvation. God won't strive with the heathen forever. Yet in other cases, such as the City of Nineveh, God sent a prophet (Jonah) and the entire population repented, turned from sin, and was saved. A great deal of God's action is done as a response to people and what they do with their free will.

 

As for us worshipping him, I think it comes down to a desire for relationship. Sure the singing and praying can look a bit odd to a nonbeliever. But I see how my husband lives his faith. He just talks to God like he talks to a friend. We go to God's temple to hang out with Him, and read the Bible - the love letter that he sent us. We thank Him for the good things He gives. He's our master, but He's also our friend and our Father. I never had a good father. But now I have God for a Father, and it does take away some of the pain.

 

I accepted science long before I accepted faith. I re-evaluated science when I found faith. Faith literally had to be proved to me. I grew up believing evolution. I went to public school and accepted the science they taught me as absolute fact. I went to public college and went into a STEM field for my job. But when I read about ideas such as "irreducible complexity" I found major flaws in man's theories. I believe God created an understandable world and wants us to explore it and figure out the puzzles He left for us.

 

I'll address Islam very briefly. I do not believe that Muslims are going to heaven, as they do not have a correct belief in Jesus. Islam was founded by a man who even wondered if he was possessed by a demon, and the basis of Islam is partly pagan and partly made of spinoff heretical teachings of misinterpreted Christianity. Allah is a false deity. Jesus does not acknowledge the prayers of Muslims, or of Jews who reject Him. "Three faiths one Creator" is false. If Jesus is merely a "holy man" then you have to live a flawless, perfect life to attain heaven. Which means nobody gets there. One Way, one Truth, one Life. The way that leads to destruction is broad and easy. The way that leads to life is narrow.

[Trail Blazer]

No Christian should acknowledge Allah as the same God as the one in the Bible. Since Islam rejects the doctrine of original sin, Allah judges Muslims by a different set of criteria than what the God in the bible does.

 

Let me make this clear, Islam undermines Christianity. You shouldn't seek refuge in anything it teaches, unless your name is William Lane Craig.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Thie four-second video is not "proof" that God exists, but it's very convincing. I love this.

[amaysngrace]

"Three faiths one Creator" is false.

 

Are you saying God didn’t create them too?

 

And it actually encompasses all faiths, I just used the other two as an example.

 

Same God.

[BC1980]

Yeah I know the feeling.... the feeling of like, "wow, life is so anticlimactic". One way I've come to peace with this is the hope that I live a long and productive life. I want to see my kids grow up and be happy. I really suspect that if I can make it into my 70's or 80's I'll feel like life ran its course and I'll be ready and willing to go. Life wasn't meant to be forever, religion or not.

 

I don't know if I'll be ready to go if I make it into my 80s. I don't buy the idea of a "good death" or "he/she lived a full life." Death is traumatizing. It doesn't matter if you are 10 or 80. The fact that your consciousness could cease to exist is terrifying.

 

I hope that when my time comes, I drop dead and never know what hit me. The absolute worst thing would be to have some type of prolonged march towards death like you do with cancer. Every day, you would be forced to wake up and grapple with your own mortality. Going to sleep at night wondering if you'll wake up. That would be my nightmare.

[major_merrick]

Let me make this clear, Islam undermines Christianity. You shouldn't seek refuge in anything it teaches

Even an atheist can see the truth! IDK why some Christians can't.

 

 

Are you saying God didn’t create them too? Same God.

He created them like he created all things. But He doesn't acknowledge them and they are not His followers. They still need to accept salvation.

 

 

Death is traumatizing. It doesn't matter if you are 10 or 80. The fact that your consciousness could cease to exist is terrifying.

If you have no faith, death can be traumatizing. When I was a teenager, I watched my husband laying on a table bleeding to death from a bullet wound. He died, and came back (CPR and blood helped, but I think God was in it.) I had no faith then, and I was so frightened. He wasn't. He said he felt God's presence put his soul back in his body. I don't know what to make of it, but I am less scared of death now than I used to be.

[mark clemson]

Same God.

 

I agree. I view the Creator's existence as a fact, in a way not unlike a car or tree existing. Then there are various belief systems ABOUT him, which are not the same AS him.

 

If Jesus is merely a "holy man" then you have to live a flawless, perfect life to attain heaven. Which means nobody gets there. One Way, one Truth, one Life. The way that leads to destruction is broad and easy. The way that leads to life is narrow.

 

 

(Note: Apologies to quote you again M_M, not trying to "pick on" you but I suspect your views represent a certain segment of the religious community. I respect that you have your views and they are different.)

 

Not sure why the bolded is asserted. Again, I don't particularly believe what's in the Bible as always being true (a variety of issues). So in my view there is no issue - of course God can simply decide who to allow into heaven on a case-by-case issue as He chooses. Whatever religion or even atheist, etc. I'm not sure why (impossible) perfection is assumed.

 

If we are "good enough" but not quite perfect, but the Creator loves us, why throw us out? We can be "made perfect" or the bad can be excised. Christians love to say that this is ONLY possible through faith in Christ specifically, but that's strange since they also love to say:

 

Luke 1:37 - "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

 

 

It seems that would allow for anything the Creator chooses to happen. So Muslims, Jews, really anyone can be allowed to "attain Heaven" should He choose it to be so.

 

IMO the view that somehow the Bible or the Koran or Torah are fully 100% correct and/or dictate to the Creator is what's incorrect.

[Trail Blazer]

Thie four-second video is not "proof" that God exists, but it's very convincing. I love this.

 

It's not in the slightest bit convincing. Comforting for those who are already convinced, perhaps?

[Trail Blazer]

Even an atheist can see the truth! IDK why some Christians can't.

Because most Christians don't spend much time studying other faiths.

[Trail Blazer]

I don't know if I'll be ready to go if I make it into my 80s. I don't buy the idea of a "good death" or "he/she lived a full life." Death is traumatizing. It doesn't matter if you are 10 or 80. The fact that your consciousness could cease to exist is terrifying.

 

I hope that when my time comes, I drop dead and never know what hit me. The absolute worst thing would be to have some type of prolonged march towards death like you do with cancer. Every day, you would be forced to wake up and grapple with your own mortality. Going to sleep at night wondering if you'll wake up. That would be my nightmare.

I am liberated by the knowledge that this is my one and only life. I don't believe in an afterlife, so I make the best of the only life I've got. When it's my time it's my time. I'm not scared of death, it's a part of life... death. It's a part of nature.

 

We are all just molecular structures... cellular organisms created by star dust. Nothing lasts forever. Stars come and go, which gives rise to new stars. Our planet is but one of many... belonging to stars so abundant in a vast universe that their quantity dwarfs the number of every individual grain of sand on earth.

 

When you think about how insignificant we are in relation to the cosmos, our lives must be celebrated. We're lucky to be here. But we mustn't fear death. Everything ends and endings bring rise to new beginnings. The circle of life. Your death contributes to new life, just as another's death contributed to yours. Embrace your time on earth, but never lose sight of the fact that there cannot be life without death.

[major_merrick]

(Note: Apologies to quote you again M_M, not trying to "pick on" you but I suspect your views represent a certain segment of the religious community. I respect that you have your views and they are different.)

 

If we are "good enough" but not quite perfect, but the Creator loves us, why throw us out? We can be "made perfect" or the bad can be excised. Christians love to say that this is ONLY possible through faith in Christ specifically, but that's strange since they also love to say:

 

Luke 1:37 - "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

 

It seems that would allow for anything the Creator chooses to happen. So Muslims, Jews, really anyone can be allowed to "attain Heaven" should He choose it to be so.

Yes, I realize that my community's views are a small subset of Christianity. But many of my elders' teachings are in sync with mainstream denominations, so it isn't all that strange.

 

God's word is perfect, without fault or error. Divinely inspired. The Jews have part of God's word, but no belief in Jesus. The Muslims have a book that is unrelated and not given by God.

 

No, God doesn't want to throw out good people. And he provides the means: Jesus! And God will go to great lengths to save people, even by prolonging their lives and giving them visions in order to convince them. But He will not go against your free will. Don't want a relationship with Jesus? OK. He won't force you. Heaven is about being in relationship. Being purified by Jesus is the means to get close enough to have that relationship, but the relationship is the point.

 

Yes, God could choose to allow anybody in. But He is also somewhat bound by His own righteous nature. He can't stand sin, and He won't go against Himself. So outside of the means that He created to absolve sins (Jesus) it doesn't really work out to bring people who don't trust in Jesus into Heaven. But He will use every means necessary to bring people to faith. All across the Muslim world, for example, people are coming to faith and having visions of Jesus. Conversion to Christianity, especially among women, is a huge movement in Iran. Wonder why China is cracking down on freedom of religion? Same thing going on there. Massive conversion. Same thing in India. So much that it could destabilize these regimes. As governments fight the faith, Christians are being martyred in record numbers. While the West has embraced apostasy, the East has been coming alive with faith. We live in interesting times.

[E-mc2]

I'll address Islam very briefly. I do not believe that Muslims are going to heaven, as they do not have a correct belief in Jesus.

 

Yes, I realize that my community's views are a small subset of Christianity. But many of my elders' teachings are in sync with mainstream denominations, so it isn't all that strange.

 

God's word is perfect, without fault or error. Divinely inspired. The Jews have part of God's word, but no belief in Jesus. The Muslims have a book that is unrelated and not given by God.

 

I don't think that's strange at all. All the denominations basically believe the same thing. Where they divide are areas such as baptism, eternal security, predestination, tongues etc. All of them believe the bible is without fault or error but they just interpret differently. While we disagree about religion I must say I do respect you for being consistent. At least you have the guts to come out and say yes, if you don't believe in jesus you are going to hell.... including muslims and all other religions. Most people can't stomach that so they make up crap that doesn't make sense, like it's the same god in all the religions.

[major_merrick]

Thanks, E-mc2. Actually, I'm one of those girls who has "zero filter." English wasn't my first language and I don't write well, but I do what I can. When I seem unclear, it is one of those times when I try to edit what I write so the mods don't get unhappy.... In real-life I'm fairly aggressive, and my mother-in-law refers to me not by name, but as "that bad blonde."

[mark clemson]

Well, I respect that your views have an internal logic, even if I don't share it. We could probably turn this thread into an extended religious debate, but I'm not sure I see value in that. For example, if you take it as an axiom that the Bible is:

 

God's word is perfect, without fault or error. Divinely inspired.

 

then you're probably not going to accept (what I see as) all the errors and logical inconsistencies created by that view. (For example, the disconnect between all things are possible and only Jesus, as well as a multitude of other issues.)

 

I simply see it differently. Divinely inspired, yes. But then filtered through human brains (which are embedded in human cultures), spoken by human mouths, written down by human hands in human languages, then translated into other languages, culled and cherry-picked by whatever idiosyncratic logic was driving the Council of Nicaea (you might want to research that BTW), etc, etc.

 

Is it a fountain of wisdom that provides some insights? YES, absolutely. Is it the pure, unadulterated, never changing view of the Deity? IMO, not at all. Just one set of windows into a very large space indeed.

 

As I suspect you are, I'm grateful to live in a time when I won't be executed or similar for simply speaking my truth.

[amaysngrace]

Most people can't stomach that so they make up crap that doesn't make sense, like it's the same god in all the religions.

 

It’s the same CREATOR for the twelfth time.

 

God the CREATOR.

 

That’s what’s the same. I’m not sure what’s so hard for you to comprehend about that.

[Justanaverageguy]

Because most Christians don't spend much time studying other faiths.

 

Many actually do. For many Christians there comes a period of spiritual crisis in their lives when they question their faith. Some (like myself) may even have left the church and moved to atheism for a significant period of time before rediscovering their faith - and many go onto to study and investigate other religions and faiths. I mean even as a child I was raised catholic and went to a catholic school and we did "Study of Religion" as a class where we actively studied different faiths. In grades 11-12 we spend one semester studying Christianity, One semester studying Hindiusm, One semester studying Buddhism and one studying Muslim. We spent as much on each different faith as we did on Christianity.

 

Most Christians aren't as close minded as you would believe ..... and exploring the concept of atheism is actually a quite a common stage of faith and spiritual development for many. Each season has its purpose.

 

I think Atheism is simply another attempt for Humans to understand their place in the universe. In retrospect for me personally Atheism was actually a necessary stepping stone towards gaining a deeper understanding of god …. rather then something that in the long run dissuaded me from it.

 

I was raised Catholic but due to not connecting with the teachings of the church in my early teens I moved away from the faith or belief in God. The way they described things didn’t make a lot of sense to me, the way the church operated didn’t seem to actually follow its own teachings and the idea of simply having faith without proof seemed pretty absurd to me. So I began the processing of seeking a deeper more meaningful understanding of the world and my place in it.

 

Over a period of time I moved into the atheism camp. I read many of the books and famous teachings in this school of thought. From to Hitchens to Dawkins to Sam Harris and stayed an Atheist who did not believe in God or the spiritual world for probably a good 10–15 years. Eventually i was brought very abruptly back to faith and belief in God through personal crisis in my life .... and put simply Gods "grace". Healing when I really needed it.

 

Now I don't believe in God through "faith" alone - but through personal experience. For me personally being exposed to the traditional religious faith and modern scientific atheism were both necessary learning tools on my journey. My current view point and understanding of God took parts from both and respects and understands both can be necessary for human spiritual development. For me experiencing both and being able to integrated the important lessons of both allowed me to fuse them into something more and move towards a deeper spiritual understanding of what life is about and why we are here.

 

I found now having traveled the journey from faith - to atheism - and then back again - I learnt much from my time as an atheist - and (unknowingly at the time) it has eventually made my current understanding and experience of god much deeper. Atheism shines a light on a lot of the nonsense and bull**** in organized religion that necessarily needs to be purged. Sometimes in order for us to "shake free" of that we need to spend time critically analyzing what we are being taught so we can find our way back to the real truth that underpins it all.

 

[Trail Blazer]

It’s the same CREATOR for the twelfth time.

 

God the CREATOR.

 

That’s what’s the same. I’m not sure what’s so hard for you to comprehend about that.

How much do you know about Islam? Not much, it would appear. I have a deep understanding of Islamic religion and culture. Trust me when I say that you, being a Christian, do not want to say out loud that your God is the same as Allah. Islam will claim that Allah is the same god as yours, but it doesn't work the other way around.

 

Islam's teachings undermine Christianity. Christ is a prophet, but not Allah's son, according to Islamoc scripture. Islam states that nobody is born a sinner, and to enter heaven a person is judged and acceptance into heaven is weighted according to one's good and bad deeds.

 

To say that they are the same God, is to fundamentally accept Islam's view that Christianity is not the right way. Accepting Allah as the same God as the one in the bible is to accept that the bible's teachings are not the true words of God.

 

Islam proposes that much of what was in the bible is incorrect, or had been misconstrued. Muslims believe that Islam is the final word of god, that Muhammad is the final prophet sent to correct misunderstood teachigs by previous prophets, including, Jesus.

 

With respect, you really need to stop saying they're the same god. They're not if you are a Christian, but they are if you are a Muslim. You are playing right into the hands of the Islamic faith because you lack the understanding of these nuances.

 

Look, by all means, undermine your faith if you wish. I couldn't care less. Islam, Christianity, Judaism - they're all the same to me. Just know, though, that you will look very foolish to anyone who's has any basic understanding of all three monotheistic religions.

[E-mc2]

ItÂ’s the same CREATOR for the twelfth time.

 

God the CREATOR.

 

ThatÂ’s whatÂ’s the same. IÂ’m not sure whatÂ’s so hard for you to comprehend about that.

 

No, why is it so hard for you to comprehend that you make zero sense. How can god have multiple pathways to heaven? You openly state that Jesus Christ shed his blood on the cross for atonement for sins... a free gift from god. But if you are an unbeliever (Muslim) you can believe your good works will lead you to the same god and to the same salvation. So according you, depending on what culture you were brought up in depends on how your faith is acceptable to god. Does it not? So therefore faith in Jesus isn't the only way to salvation. Why don't you just come out and say it? What is holding you back?

 

You're implying that no matter what you believe, as long as you believe in some sort of god you will be saved. It doesn't matter if it's grace or works oriented. Ten hail Marries a day and 10% of your income plus five hours of service per months will lead you to salvation..... or, you can just believe Jesus and do whatever you want. Yeah I can see why the latter is appealing to your flesh.

 

I seriously challenge you to to study the book of Leviticus. It explains how the old testament sacrifices are the only atonement for sin and later in the Bible N.T. it is fulfilled by Christ. There is no room for good works anywhere in the N.T. but the same god according to you will accept good works for entry into heaven if you live on the other side of the world. Please. You can't have both. You said it, not me.

 

Why would God sacrifice his own son for you if there was another way to bring human beings to salvation?

 

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:2

Edited October 24, 2019 by E-mc2

[Justanaverageguy]

I seriously challenge you to to study the book of Leviticus.

 

This is a book written primarily for Levitical priests - and was written at a time when the Ark of the covenant resided within the Jewish temple. The laws outlined in this book were specifically designed to allow the Jewish people of the time to reside close to the temple where Gods spirit resided. It needs to be read in context with full understanding of the time and its purpose and the need for spiritual "purity" when in the presence of Gods spiritual energy. This was both for the protection of the people and also to avoid corrupting the spiritual energy in the Ark.

 

There is no room for good works anywhere in the N.T. but the same god according to you will accept good works for entry into heaven if you live on the other side of the world. Please. You can't have both. You said it, not me.

 

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:2

 

No room for Good works in the N.T ?!? What the hell - thats basically all it is. Jesus walking from town to town for 3 years doing nothing but good works and teaching others to do the same. You can have both - because Grace and works are not mutually exclusive. Its not binary. Yes we all need Jesus sacrifice and saving grace - but in order to be counted worthy to receive this grace - what did Jesus say was required ? The one who loves me - will keep my commandments. What were his commandments ? To love and help others.

 

They go together.

 

To give some specific biblical references which show works are a necessary part of Grace:

 

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

 

"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, sick and you ministered to me, in prison and you visited me..... Truly I tell you when ever you did this to the least of these you did it unto me"

 

Put simply you can't make it to heaven through "works alone" but they are still required. As James put it - Faith without works is dead! Jesus gives grace at his own digression and he does so based on the life you live.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

 

Now I don't believe in God through "faith" alone - but through personal experience. For me personally being exposed to the traditional religious faith and modern scientific atheism were both necessary learning tools on my journey. My current view point and understanding of God took parts from both and respects and understands both can be necessary for human spiritual development. For me experiencing both and being able to integrated the important lessons of both allowed me to fuse them into something more and move towards a deeper spiritual understanding of what life is about and why we are here.

 

If you've ever written/blogged about your story I'd love to read it.

[amaysngrace]

Emc

 

Creation is not the afterlife. I really think you’re very confused.

 

You keep crediting me with words I simply did not say. In fact I told you that if you want to know how a Muslim believes they get saved then ask a Muslim.

 

It’s obtuse to think all Muslims think alike anyway. Just look at the different interpretations of Christianity by Christians on this thread.

 

You have angry Christians with an angry God and loving Christians with a loving God. That’s probably just one reason it’s been said a relationship with God is personal.

 

I’m presuming that goes for people of other religions as well.