If you believe in heaven...

[E-mc2]

Put simply you can't make it to heaven through "works alone" but they are still required. As James put it - Faith without works is dead! Jesus gives grace at his own digression and he does so based on the life you live.

 

Martin Luther ripped the whole book of James out of his bible thus sparking the protestant revolution. The verse you quoted is the most contested verse in all the Bible.

[Trail Blazer]

Many actually do. For many Christians there comes a period of spiritual crisis in their lives when they question their faith. Some (like myself) may even have left the church and moved to atheism for a significant period of time before rediscovering their faith - and many go onto to study and investigate other religions and faiths.

I appreciate you shedding light on your early life.

 

I had a similar upbring to you by the sounds of it, with a twist! My mom was Catholic and I also attended a Catholic school, studied other religions exactly as you did. My father was a Muslim who'd foregone his Islamic beliefs a few years after arriving from his country of origin.

 

After my parents separated, he rediscovered his faith and re-married, this time to a Muslim woman. I have three siblings born to my father and step mother who are Muslim. I have had a lot of exposure to both Islam and Cathlocism.

 

For many years I believed in God. I just didn't know when religion was correct. Through my pursuit to figure out which religion I'd pursue, I realized after talking with both priests and sheikhs (that my father had arranged for me to speak with whenever I wished), that neither religion sat well with me.

 

I uncovered a lot of concepts I found to be unfair and unjust. I could not accept a God who extorts worship, not through salvation, but through fear. The intrinsic link between Christianity and right-wing political ideology further intensified my dissatisfaction with what I'd learnt about Christianity. I wasn't relating to Christianity at all.

Islam didn't sit well with me, either. In fact, no religion sat well with me.

 

I was just shy of 17 at the time when the September 11 attacks occurred. In the aftermath of it I remember a sudden feeling of perverse disdain for a concept which, given the perfect storm of events culminating in the life of an individual, can give rise to such hatred that it could propel that individual to commit horrific crimes in its name.

 

I remember the subsquent Islamophobia from the west. I remember the dichotomy between the ardent Islamists that my father used to associate with (thankfully he lived in Cali for much of my upbringing so I wasn't overly exposed to it) and everyday Americans who, understandably, felt that every Muslim was potentially a threat.

 

It all culminated at a crucial time for me. Coming of age for me saw me gravitate towards science. Comparing the pair - Islam and Christianity - left me feeling empty and unfulfilled. Their vapid unfounded explanations for the universe didn't resomate at all.

 

In fact, at one point by the time I reached my early 20s, I had developed a disdain for religion, such was the strength of my atheistic convictions. These days I have a better understanding of sociological aspect of religion. I understand how they took root in a time where the desire to understand preceded the scientific know-how to explain.

 

I see these days, my siblings who are deeply entrenched within their Islamic faith, go along every day believing they're going to heaven. I've had theological discussions with them and it never ends well. The cognitive dissonance is too much for them, so they can never have a proper debate about it. Neither I, nor do they, ever broach the topic.

 

I've read a few versions of the bible. I've read an English translated version of the Quran. My Arabic isn't good enough to read an untranslated version, but I've been assured of its purity in translation. Thankfully, because I'd hate to think that God's true message (according to Islam) could only ever be grasped by those whom understand the language to which the founder (Muhammad) spoke.

[E-mc2]

It’s obtuse to think all Muslims think alike anyway. Just look at the different interpretations of Christianity by Christians on this thread.

 

it doesn't matter what anyone "thinks" only what the spiritual texts say.

[amaysngrace]

Which is up to interpretation. You need to think in order to interpret.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

it doesn't matter what anyone "thinks" only what the spiritual texts say.

 

And how they're interpreted......

[amaysngrace]

Word, CO

[Justanaverageguy]

Martin Luther ripped the whole book of James out of his bible thus sparking the protestant revolution. The verse you quoted is the most contested verse in all the Bible.

 

And how about the ones from Jesus where he says the exact same thing only more clearly ? Did he rip out the entire chapter 7 of Matthew and 6 of Luke as well ? Did he just put a line through "So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire"

That's an uncomfortable line for most Christians to read so we tend to skip over it - but Jesus is pretty clear - there isn't room for dispute on what the N.T says unless you do what you say - and simply rip out entire chapters of the bible to try to make it say what you want it to say ....... instead of what it actually says.

 

Grace is real and powerful - and its the reason Jesus came into the world and the reason he is so revered. But his grace does not remove the need for good works. It is literally all he taught people to do. It was the core message of his teaching and somehow people say its not necessary.

 

The reason he offers grace is because a sinner who has born the consequences of their wrong actions and then been offered grace and forgiveness is more likely to be inspired to help others in similar circumstances. Due to compassion they are more likely to become willing and active workers for God's cause ..... to help those in need. Grace offered to one sinner - may save 20 or maybe 20 thousands because of the work the saved sinner will go on to do.

 

Read the parable of the two debtors to understand this.

 

Two men were debtors to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,d and the other fifty. When they were unable to repay him, he forgave both of them. Which one, then, will love him more?”

 

“I suppose the one who was forgiven more,” Simon replied.

 

“You have judged correctly.” Jesus said.

 

And turning to the sinful woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

[E-mc2]

And how they're interpreted......

 

Which is up to interpretation. You need to think in order to interpret.

 

it doesn't matter what anyone "thinks" only what the spiritual texts say.

 

 

Notice carefully how I used the word "say". Literal interpretation is different from figurative. Figurative is is like art, no right or wrong. Literalal is literal. Just ask major merrick.

 

 

 

You can make the bible say anything you want to if you wish. And who are you to question anyone elses interpretation? I tend towards literal unless obviously directed otherwise by scripture.

[Justanaverageguy]

You can make the bible say anything you want to if you wish. And who are you to question anyone elses interpretation? I tend towards literal unless obviously directed otherwise by scripture.

 

Yes if you rip out and ignore entire chapters you could probably make it say what ever you want it to say I already agreed on that. To make the bible say good deeds aren't needed would require some serious editing though I'm not disputing there are some concepts in the bible which are tricky to understand and may have differing opinons but the requirements for good works is not one of them. To say the N.T doesn't include this would be like trying to take a cook book - and remove all the cooking instructions. It is the entire purpose of the book ....... But to everyone who has ears - let them hear.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[amaysngrace]

Literal interpretation is different from figurative. Figurative is is like art, no right or wrong.

 

The parables are figurative and I’m pretty sure there’s a lesson to be learned that depicts right from wrong.

 

So did you really want to know about Heaven or what?

[Justanaverageguy]

It all culminated at a crucial time for me. Coming of age for me saw me gravitate towards science. Comparing the pair - Islam and Christianity - left me feeling empty and unfulfilled. Their vapid unfounded explanations for the universe didn't resomate at all.

 

In fact, at one point by the time I reached my early 20s, I had developed a disdain for religion, such was the strength of my atheistic convictions. These days I have a better understanding of sociological aspect of religion. I understand how they took root in a time where the desire to understand preceded the scientific know-how to explain.

 

I see these days, my siblings who are deeply entrenched within their Islamic faith, go along every day believing they're going to heaven. I've had theological discussions with them and it never ends well. The cognitive dissonance is too much for them, so they can never have a proper debate about it. Neither I, nor do they, ever broach the topic.

 

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. Certainly you have an interesting perspective being caught between both the Christian and Muslim faiths. Definitely an akward and uncomfortable situation given the times we live in and the social atmosphere in the US regarding the Muslim faith.

 

Whilst I don't share the deep insight you have with the Muslim faith - to be honest I'm not suprised we share some similarities in upbringing. Your own posts remind me very much of my own opinions and discussion say 10 years ago. And I don't say that meaning to be condescending like "I know better now" .... I mean as like I totally get where you are coming from and why you think the way you do and have some of the opinions you do. Because there is a lot of stuff wrong with organized religion and a lot of stuff that is taught or practiced which doesn't match up with reality or really seem to make sense or serve any beneficial purpose. Many of the people speaking on behalf of the church only make it worse - blind leading the blind. If your not questioning this - then it makes me wonder if you are actually paying any attention. Then of course the other issues of faiths which are founded on the same principles fighting amongst each other - even the same faith splintering and arguing over trivial unimportant differences. I mean look at Northern Ireland for an example in Christianity - Protestant vs Catholic. Its hardly inspiring stuff and not hard to make the argument that religion sometimes does more damage then good.

 

But one thing I would say for consideration: Have a read of one gospels in the New Testament .... and in doing so specifically pay attention to what Jesus said about organized religion and the religious leaders and practices of his time. Does it sound like he was supportive of them ? In the N.T Jesus is incredibly forgiving and does not judge those who have sinned .... except for 2 very exclusive categories of people. They being the Scribes and Pharisees. Meaning the Church leaders and the politicians/lawyers of the time.

 

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in"

If you read with the correct frame of mind - it might surprise you to learn that much of what you (and other atheists) are criticizing about religion and drove you away from the church .......... Jesus actually totally agreed with you on And he said it louder and far more directly then you are. The reason why he was so furious at the church leaders and church practices..... is because he knew at the end of this "hollow" "false" system it would result in people losing connection with the church and eventually connection and belief in God. He saw good people becoming disillusioned and abandoning faith - Which is why he rallied so hard against the church practices in his time .... and as a result ..... they killed him for it.

 

Now a new religion Christianity sprung up out of his life and teaching - but the institution of the "new" church isn't immune from the exact same things he criticized in the older Jewish religion. All the organized religions are anything but perfect - they are run by man - so how could they be anything but flawed. But my advice is - if your willing to look deeper into the teachings on your own - I assure you there is wisdom, grace and truth to be found there.

 

Don't let the imperfections of organized religion and other men's "understanding" - obscure and block you from the higher lessons and the "perfection" its trying to point you to.

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Trail Blazer]

Yeah... you know what, man? There may be certain things in the bible that I can find commonality with. I don't disagree with everything in it. But, nothing contained within the bible will ever convince me, nor the Quran, or any holy book.

 

I do not believe in god, it's simple as that. The bible was written by men. It's full of outrageous anecdotes and scientifc inaccuracies.

 

Short of God materializing right before my very eyes and proving he is an omnipotent and omniscient being, nothing will convince me otherwise. And since we know that's not going to happen, well, I'm going to be remaining skeptical for a long time to come, I'd say.

 

You've got to remember, I wasn't raised an atheist. I believed in god until I was around 14. I sought reasons to strengthen my belief. However, in the absence of any form of evidence of his existence, having faith wasn't enough when the concept I required to devote faith to just didn't add up.

 

There will never be proof of God's existence. Ever. Heaven is the reward for having faith. If there was undeniable proof of God where, for example, he'd routinely materialize before humanity in an exhibition to demonstrate, say, a display of defying the laws of gravity - everyone would be a beleiver. No, wait, they wouldn't... they'd all be acceptors.

[Justanaverageguy]

You've got to remember, I wasn't raised an atheist. I believed in god until I was around 14. I sought reasons to strengthen my belief. However, in the absence of any form of evidence of his existence, having faith wasn't enough when the concept I required to devote faith to just didn't add up.

 

Fair enough - As I said - you sound very much like myself 10 years go. Again not meaning to be condescending - just scarily familiar. Life's a journey that can have some unexpected twists.

 

Short of God materializing right before my very eyes and proving he is an omnipotent and omniscient being, nothing will convince me otherwise. And since we know that's not going to happen, well, I'm going to be remaining skeptical for a long time to come, I'd say.

 

Be careful what you wish for I got my personal proof - but it didn't come in the way you might imagine. "Blessed are the broken hearted - for they shall be comforted"

 

God materializes for those in dire need. I got my proof - but it came at an extremely high mental, emotional and personal cost - basically as a result of me making unwise spiritual decisions which caused extremely negative karmic circumstances to come to bare upon me. When he came he didn't manifest "externally" - he manifested internally to heal what was broken. This is how spirit operates - it is an energy and it connects with your body - not a physical being you "see". Think of your body like an antenna - god as the energy signal. You don't see the "radio signal" - but you know know its real when you get a connection.

 

If your scientifically minded and curious (as I assume you are) you might find these videos somewhat interesting and worthy of further thought on how "spirit/God" might work from a scientific perspective to connect with the body. I figure you are smart enough to join the dots and see what I'm pointing too.

 

(Pay attention @ 9:40)

 

https://imgur.com/5OB9ADG

https://imgur.com/cayibVm

 

 

Wish you the best.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[LivingWaterPlease]

No room for Good works in the N.T ?!? What the hell - thats basically all it is. Jesus walking from town to town for 3 years doing nothing but good works and teaching others to do the same. You can have both - because Grace and works are not mutually exclusive. Its not binary. Yes we all need Jesus sacrifice and saving grace - but in order to be counted worthy to receive this grace - what did Jesus say was required ? The one who loves me - will keep my commandments. What were his commandments ? To love and help others..

 

Put simply you can't make it to heaven through "works alone" but they are still required. As James put it - Faith without works is dead! Jesus gives grace at his own digression and he does so based on the life you live.

 

I took from his post that he meant the NT is clear that we're saved by grace, not works. To me, your post and his are not at odds with each other.

[major_merrick]

Underneath all this debate is a very simple fact. Faith is very personal. Whether your faith (or lack of it) gets you to heaven or hell depends on whether you get the truth or whether you don't. And your path to the truth may be simple, or it may be kind of weird like mine. But there's only one truth, free for the taking, if you become humble and ready to receive it. I can't fully tell you how to get there, but I can share what I know of the Scripture and I can share my experiences.

 

Growing up I really didn't think much of God. Even until recently, my views were essentially Deist. God existed, but that didn't really matter much. My father grew up in a church, but didn't have faith. My mother is a sort of witch earth-worshipper. I converted to the Christian faith to please my husband so that we could marry. Lip service, basically. Then I started seeing things happen. Things I couldn't explain. Evidence that couldn't be faked, and philosophy that turned some of my ideas inside out. Experiences are valuable.

 

Most often, faith is transmitted from one person to another. As we've seen in this thread, quoting Scripture to nonbelievers is kind of like throwing a glass of water at the wind. Might make some points, but a lot of it just bounces off. That's how it was with me for a long time. "Yeah yeah whatever..." Until you come to a place where God can work with you, it kind of is what it is. That is between each individual, the people around them, and the Holy Spirit.

 

In my poor untrained way, I try to do what 1 Peter 3:15 instructs me: "Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, doing this with gentleness and respect." Speaking the unvarnished truth and being gentle is a difficult line to walk, especially for someone like me who tend to be a fighter first.

[Justanaverageguy]

I took from his post that he meant the NT is clear that we're saved by grace, not works. To me, your post and his are not at odds with each other.

 

So I was commenting specifically on the statement that "works" were not required. Your're right in that we both agreed on the fact grace is needed. I disagreed however that Grace negated the need for good works. Subtle .... But I think very important difference. We may not "earn" grace through good works .... But without good works to go with God's grace we come to nothing.

 

I think it's important to emphasize this - just as we emphasize good works alone won't get you there to ensure people avoid spiritual arrogance. Emphasizing the need for works avoids the opposite extreme of "spiritual complacency" and "Jesus did it all syndrome" implying nothing is required of me.

 

Grace exists to cleanse the soul of past wrongs - and inspire righteous action going forward. It does not negate the need for the individual to do good works. Jesus said every individual who doesn't bear good fruit - meaning good works - is cut off from God and cast into the fire. Essentially we all need grace .... But we also all need good works.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[mark clemson]

How much do you know about Islam?... Islam will claim that Allah is the same God as yours, but it doesn't work the other way around.

 

Apologies if I'm stirring a pot that has started to settle, but, at the risk of speaking for Amaysngrace, she and I simply believe that God exists independently of the religions themselves. There's only ONE actual God that actually exists. Therefore the religions don't define Him, they are about Him.

 

A parallel (at least for me) would be the story about the blind men and the elephant. They are looking at the same thing, but each through their own set of filters and so coming up with different interpretations/beliefs.

 

 

No, why is it so hard for you to comprehend that you make zero sense. How can God have multiple pathways to heaven?

 

Easy one for me. People are very different. He knows this and so created multiple paths.

 

There is a "rule" that there can be only one path. The religions claim that God created that rule. I think (some) people created that rule and incorporated it into their religions, in an effort to give their religions more earthly power, or presumably in some cases because they believed it.

 

 

Anyway, gotta run but as far as I know the facts of how water came to earth are still being discussed in the science community.

 

Nobody knows for certain the origin of earth's water. Science is of the view that it came from a number sources, chiefly being asteroids which collided with earth early in its inception.

 

So, apparently it's being discovered that there is a LOT of water in the universe. For example, astronomers are finding planets that are covered in water. There is also lots of it between stars, in comets, etc. So, earth getting it's water (however that happened) probably shouldn't be seen as a miracle.

 

What is "miraculous", or possibly just lucky, or possibly planned by the Creator, is earth getting one of the possible right amounts for it to be great for life. Apparently they think these mostly water planets are not so great for the possibility of life (too much weight/pressure, no inter-tidal zones, etc).

[LivingWaterPlease]

So I was commenting specifically on the statement that "works" were not required. Your're right in that we both agreed on the fact grace is needed. I disagreed however that Grace negated the need for good works. Subtle .... But I think very important difference. We may not "earn" grace through good works .... But without good works to go with God's grace we come to nothing.

... Essentially we all need grace .... But we also all need good works.

 

Sure, from your posts I figured you got it. Just writing as some reading the thread may not. Haven't judged whom those may be that don't, was just a possibility.

 

Also, though, IME, works flow from the power of the life of Christ within, not from a need to do them, too. IOW, one would have to try to restrain oneself from doing good works as they are natural when one is connected to Christ through daily Bible reading and prayer. "An apple tree bears apples because it's an apple tree, not in order to be one."

 

Didn't mean to get into this thread! There's enough going on without my input!

 

Carry on!

[E-mc2]

So did you really want to know about Heaven or what?

 

Yes I did. Lesson learned here is don't bother asking religious people about heaven. What a mess.

[amaysngrace]

Yea well it probably wouldn’t have went south when it did had you not called Christians arrogant.

[mark clemson]

Respectfully, I think many if not all of us agree on many commonalities. The Creator exists, there is truth to the Bible (varying degrees), there is probably a Heaven in some form (different versions), God is the ultimate means to enter (variation in beliefs about mechanism(s) that He may have set up).

 

So, less of a mess from a higher view, IMO.

[Trail Blazer]

Respectfully, I think many if not all of us agree on many commonalities. The Creator exists, there is truth to the Bible (varying degrees), there is probably a Heaven in some form (different versions), God is the ultimate means to enter (variation in beliefs about mechanism(s) that He may have set up).

 

So, less of a mess from a higher view, IMO.

One cannot get to heaven, according to Christianity, by means of Islam. The same is true for Islam with regards to the Christian faith.

 

Islam's very existence is proof, according to Islam, that Judaism and Christianity is wrong. Islam posits that all religions prior to it are not the true, unspoken word of the Lord. By virtue of being last, Islam claims that it's God, or Allah's final word.

 

If you want to claim that Muslims worship the same god, and that they're just misguided in their beliefs, go right ahead. At the end of the day, it's all semantics because I don't believe in any God, so whether the one in the bible and the one in the Quran are the same or not, is rather moot from my perspective.

[TheFinalWord]

Why would it please god that you treat your fellow man correctly if he doesn't punish an individual for treating them poorly, or even, you know... raping and murdering someone? Because hey, repent your sins, have faith in God as the almighty creator and *voila* you're in heaven!

 

Because God forgives a person's sins and they go to heaven, does not mean they do not suffer consequences here on earth.

 

The bible claims that god loves every one, yet his demands are very much at odds with a loving being.

 

God has two natures. His loving side and his Holiness side. A lot of times, in today's culture especially, the loving side of God is promoted. But make no mistake about it, God is Holy and cannot tolerate sin. If you read the bible, you will find that in the infamous John 3:16 that "For God so loved the world..." A few verses down it says that those do not believe are condemned because they will not believe in God's only son.

 

Science doesn't offer an adequate explanation to you? That's prob ably because you've never given science a chance because you are blinded by your faith, and any available piece of evidence that runs contrary to your faith you dismiss.

 

I'm a research scientist by profession. Try me

[Libby1]

Then please state why YOU PERSONALLY believe you're going there when you die. You may also comment on hell and state why you personally believe you are or aren't going there.

 

I remember reading an account of Susan Atkins, one of the most vicious of the murderers influenced by Charles Manson. Before the crimes and conviction, she seems to have been consumed by this belief that Charles Manson was some sort of Christ figure. Once in prison, she embraced a more mainstream form of religion. It's pretty clear from what she said in interviews that she saw religious belief as sufficient to make her a good person. Despite her having killed a heavily pregnant woman (Sharon Tate) and, in the course of that murder, telling the victim that she didn't care about her baby.

 

Latterly she'd talk about how she didn't care about other people's judgements of her, as God would judge her. I'm pretty sure that when people say things like that, it's with some degree of confidence that on account of them being believers God will see them as a good person.

 

If people like her are correct in their view that the adoption of a belief system trumps good actions (or a life in which avoiding causing harm to others plays an important role) when it comes to being regarded as a worthy entrant to heaven, then that begs the question of whether most of us would enjoy being in heaven. Obviously if the alternative involves being burned for eternity it might be a case of "okay, well I guess sharing space with forgiven murderers, rapists etc is the lesser of two evils"...but I can't see how Sharon Tate would feel as though she was in heaven if Susan Atkins was also there.

 

As far as I'm concerned, all too often religious belief is a lazy way for some not-very-great (and in some cases downright evil) people to kid themselves about their own virtue. If there really is a heaven and hell, then obviously I'd hope to go to heaven...but if the entrance requirements include accepting that murderers and rapists are also entitled to be there on account of adopting the "right" belief system, and regardless of their terrible actions, then I won't be allowed in.

[Trail Blazer]

Because God forgives a person's sins and they go to heaven, does not mean they do not suffer consequences here on earth.

God forgives paedophiles because they believed in him but sends good, honest people to hell because the astounding lack of factual evidence for his existence was just a bridge too far to have faith? That just seems so backwards and unjust.

 

God has two natures. His loving side and his Holiness side. A lot of times, in today's culture especially, the loving side of God is promoted. But make no mistake about it, God is Holy and cannot tolerate sin. If you read the bible, you will find that in the infamous John 3:16 that "For God so loved the world..." A few verses down it says that those do not believe are condemned because they will not believe in God's only son.

How is that "sin"? Oh, you're such a bad person because you don't believe in an unbelievable, fanciful book of convoluted anecdotes? See, this is a big reason why I don't beleive in God. If he was as great as the monotheistic religions make him out to be, he wouldn't be this petty, unjust dictatorial tyrant.

 

I'm a research scientist by profession. Try me

Are you saying that, in your (professional?) opinion, science hasn't provided you enough reason to believe that the universe spawned through a natural phenomenon?