Alpha vs Beta Mentality

[Mysterio]

This is more Directed to The Final Word. Anyone can chime in.

 

So I have gotten into listening to Rollo Tomassi and his view on Alpha and Beta males.

 

When you all here Alpha and Beta. Whats comes to your mind and whats the up/downside to being one.

 

I don't know what I am. I am not heavy handed, but I am not putting up with BS as well.

 

At Work I am on top of things and my co-workers are helped by me when the situations come up.

 

When it comes to women. I treat them right, but I won't put up with BS. My ex tried to guilt me into having a kid with her. I did not cave. My ex GF PM. She tried to state that I had to put up with her bad behaviour because I was 18 and she was 16 when we were young. I dropped her.

 

My friend JC sent me a txt saying she would be more comfortable if I met her now EX, before we get together. I talked to her about it and basically wanted an explanation on that.

 

My former female friend JT, called me up and told me that I had to call her ASAP, because she was mad at me. I did not put up with that and I never called her back.

 

Does that sound like Alpha or Beta mentality that I have. I think I am an Alpha underdneath the surface, but my demeanor may come off as Beta.

[basil67]

Beta. Because you're questioning where you fit. An Alpha wouldn't question whether he is Alpla or Beta - he'd simply be confident with how he presents.

[amaysngrace]

Quit trying to define yourself with a label. Just be who you are.

 

It also can’t hurt to check yourself from time to time to be sure you’re being the best version of yourself.

 

I don’t buy into all the alpha beta crappola. I think some men proclaim to being alpha when they’re really just a dick.

[basil67]

And yes, I also agree with Grace that the whole Alpha Beta thing is a load of rubbish....mostly because nobody seems to agree on what it is to start with.

[basil67]

Honestly Mysterio, I guarantee you that every male poster here who talks about Alpha Beta is a Beta. No half decent Alpha guy would even bother with this stuff because he'd be too busy leading his life. With the notable exception of those who seek to make money from the desperate and dateless.

Edited October 25, 2019 by basil67

[chillii]

Well , what comes to my mind is what a load of bullshyt.

Once upon a time men , women too, just had 100s of different personalities, and they alllll paired up to whomever they did, or fell in love with, or got along with, or whatever. Every possible combo of couple out there and 1000's upon 1000s of every possible personality traits you could dream up and then some, that's one of the beautiful things about humans.

But ahhh, guess what apparently , now, that doesn't happen and now we all only have two personalities , and they've even got little labels for them, and the other amazing thing is, now , apparently, only one of their little labels is able to match with the opposite sex.

Man , the longer l stay on the internet the more pity l have on all the sorry lost souls out there listening to the bs all over it.

Edited October 25, 2019 by chillii

[The Outlaw]

I think the whole alpha/beta is a load of BS. As amays said, just be yourself. Live your own life, and try not to worry about where you 'fit' in.

[thefooloftheyear]

Its not a load of BS....Its real, and exists for just about every creature on Earth...

 

Its not anything that can be taught or learned though....Its just "one of those things"....And there are alpha females and alpha males...this is not just a male thing...And "not putting up with BS" does not qualify you as an alpha....No more than having a pair of arms qualifies you as a pro ball player...Most alpha males are actually quite calm and don't ever need to do this..

 

But believe whatever you want....

 

That, though, should not keep anyone from enjoying a lasting and fulfilling relationship.. Its a big world out there and there is an ass for every seat....You just need to find the seat that fits your ass...

 

TFY

[Michelle ma Belle]

I'm not sure it's completely BS. I just don't think it's that black and white.

 

Like most things in life, there are shades of grey and that is where the vast majority of people live.

 

Why would you (or anyone) want to put a label on yourself as one or the other?

[alphamale]

Does that sound like Alpha or Beta mentality that I have. I think I am an Alpha underdneath the surface, but my demeanor may come off as Beta.

 

yes it sound llike you are in the middle possessing qualities of both. therefore you are normal

[Gretchen12]

It's the end of true masculinity when men start talking about being alpha or beta in relationships. They don't understand that these terms only make sense in how men are with OTHER MEN. You tell me what kind of a man is a coward at work then comes home and "stands up" to the woman? He's supposed to stand up to other men and care for the woman.

 

Yes a lot of women go for the alpha male - that means the alpha among other men! She observes whether you can hold your own with other men, if you are successful at work. This is where the lesser males fail. Trying to be an alpha in a relationship is trying to become the alpha female. That's so messed up. The worst ones are afraid of other men, they can only bully the woman.

[Tamfana]

Quit trying to define yourself with a label. Just be who you are.

 

It also can’t hurt to check yourself from time to time to be sure you’re being the best version of yourself.

 

I don’t buy into all the alpha beta crappola. I think some men proclaim to being alpha when they’re really just a dick.

 

Yes.

 

When I hear the alpha/beta, colored pills routine, what I hear is someone who doesn’t understand that there is not just one measure of value. There is no single hierarchy so there’s no such thing as a universal alpha. And true for most social structures, alphas are self-appointed so they define what an alpha is. It’s them! (surprise, surprise…) “I am the alpha! So of course the rest of you are betas.” Don’t believe them. There are many measures. Don’t look up to anyone who proclaims their superiority over you. They’re full of it and merely taking advantage of you. That’s what I think when I hear these odd hierarchy rules.

[Kitty Tantrum]

I've been independently studying gender relations pretty much forever, and I've been broadly keeping tabs on the things the "dating coaches" and "pickup artists" and whatnots have been going on about for years, so I'm pretty familiar with the idea.

 

Here's my take:

 

"Alpha vs. Beta" when examined as a "mentality" or "frame" as it applies to dating and male/female relationships is a construct. It really only works in the context of modern dating where you have two people, a man and a woman, alone together and entirely outside the context of community, etc., and (this is the important part) competing with each other for resources.

 

Most typically, the guy wants sex (resource), and the woman wants money/attention/validation (resource). What we see most often in modern relationships is a situation where both parties are trying to extract as much of what they want as they can get from a prospective "partner" while giving as little as they can of what that "partner" is after. Minimize investment, maximize return.

 

That's the "game" of it. It looks vaguely like courtship at a glance, because it's usually couched in similar activities, but it's a straight-up competition between the man and the woman. This is modern dating. The "alpha mentality" or "frame" as constructed and applied to these scenarios is essentially a tool of psychological warfare, designed to play against female nature to the benefit of the male. It's packaged up with techniques like isolating the female, building comfort, etc. It's all about building an artificial scenario in a vacuum to give yourself the upper hand.

 

(Don't get me wrong, women have their own dirty tricks and constructs, too, but that's another topic.)

 

In reality, being an "alpha male" has nothing to do with how a man interacts with women. It's about his position relative to the other men in his community/organization/family/whatever (and these are dynamic hierarchies - a man might be "top alpha dog" in his own home or place of business, but not at the town hall meeting, for example).

 

Any guy can be (or play at being) "the alpha male" when he's only in the company of women. But when you take that "alpha" status and apply it to the interactions between men and women - when the man effectively takes the woman and draws her into the male dominance hierarchy to exert his natural masculine "home turf" advantage - it actually undermines the relationship in the long run, even if it gets him what he wants in the short term.

 

(The same could be said of "hen-pecking," where a woman draws the man into the female dominance hierarchy to exert HER natural advantage; it might get her what she wants, but will erode the relationship.)

 

 

Edit to add: in short, a man doesn't need to actually BE an "alpha male" in relation to any other MEN, in order to dominate a woman - so long as he can draw her into competition on his turf. Likewise, a woman doesn't need to be an "alpha female" in relation to other women, to dominate a man - if she can get him competing with her on HER turf.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Kitty Tantrum

[Gaeta]

Alpha and Beta are at the opposite end of the spectrum. In between you have: omega gamma sigma delta.

[GorillaTheater]

Alpha and Beta are at the opposite end of the spectrum. In between you have: omega gamma sigma delta.

 

I've decided that I'm an omicron, because I like the way it rolls off the tongue.

[mark clemson]

Yes a lot of women go for the alpha male - that means the alpha among other men! She observes whether you can hold your own with other men, if you are successful at work. This is where the lesser males fail.

 

 

 

In reality, being an "alpha male" has nothing to do with how a man interacts with women. It's about his position relative to the other men in his community/organization/family/whatever (and these are dynamic hierarchies - a man might be "top alpha dog" in his own home or place of business, but not at the town hall meeting, for example).

 

 

 

I tend to agree with these views. I think there's a profitable cottage industry grown up around portraying "alpha" as some sort of personality trait. There's a truth to that perhaps in the sense of a "natural leader" or similar. But I think the truth of it is that the alpha (male) is the male who's in charge in a given situation. So in a dentist's office the humble dentist is the alpha male, but presumably not at the bar or pub.

 

I suspect that in terms of being attractive to women generally, outside of a specific context, it is often a matter of being perceived as having sufficient alpha traits to be desirable (and keep in mind that not all women go for alphas). These can take many forms - confidence, energy, social fluency, strength/fitness, the trappings of success (nice clothes, nice haircut, nice car, money), intelligence, specialized skills or rare talent, actually having a leadership position or high paying job etc. Women will also see potential in some men (the fixer upper).

 

There are also levels or types of alpha - for example cops and firemen appeal to many women, as do stock brokers and CEOs. Clearly these are very different sets of "alpha traits".

 

I've never taken or more than cursorily researched them, but I suspect that few if any of these PUA classes can turn an introvert with poor social skills into someone having a lot of "alpha traits". However, I do think one can "fake" or simply change certain things. Particularly clothes, hair style/grooming, and with practice mannerisms and gait to come across as "more alpha" and with sufficient practice and probably coaching, social skills too to some extent, e.g. Toastmasters. Discussing good work skills and job prospects at a date (without being overboard about it) presumably helps as well.

 

It's useful to remember that, if you look at romance novels, simply being born wealthy, handsome, and a bit arrogant or clueless is apparently "alpha enough" for many women. (Of course, as they will be quick to point out, romance novels aren't real life and there certainly aren't enough actual handsome male heirs floating around for everyone.)

 

 

 

The worst ones are afraid of other men, they can only bully the woman.

 

Yes, indeed. And that's not "alpha" at all is it...

[SumGuy]

Mysterio, what are you trying to accomplish with this whole alpha vs beta thing?

 

Even for those who believe in it (I don't) there is no non-trivial definition. You can find any combination of traits lumped together that "women like" and it is called alpha.

 

Then there are the definitions which in my view are just excuses for being an a**hole at best and at worst date rape justification...because she says no yet alphas know no means yes for them.

 

Also in my view one shouldn't be surprised. It all arose out of a study of wolves in captivity, as it fit the narrative certain men wanted to tell themselves...then let the cherry picking begin.

 

It is all based on amateur social Darwinism concepts (and men providing their confirmation bias anecdotes) that give scientific/logic/fact based cover to forgone conclusions supported by confirmation bias.

 

Just like earlier uses of social Darwinism concepts; that have been used to justify, guide and develop the policies that led to the most heinous atrocities of the 20th century, its the same "appeal to the natural order" construct used by one group of humans to justify getting to live by different rules than another, or seeing another group as less than.

 

I suspect you have experienced its effects your entire life.

 

Yet have at it. You can dissect yourself into all sorts of letters of the greek alphabet.

Like most things from the PUA community it will work on someone, but almost anything will fall into that category.

Like most things from the PUA community it is a simplistic feel good world view formulated in a way that can never be proven or disproven.

The PUA community just puffs up their success and blames their failures on something else; it could never be the theory they spout is just fundamentally wrong.

Edited October 26, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Redacted commercial link

[Kitty Tantrum]

My first marriage is a pretty good example of the "alpha towards women" charade:

 

Relative to other men, my ex-husband is fairly middle-of-the-road average. Nobody would peg him for an alpha male. Ever. He's definitely more of a follower than a leader.

 

Me, relative to other women, I DO tend to be the alpha. It's not something I strive for or try to do, it's just what happens. In any given group of women, unless there is already well-established and well-defined leadership, I almost always end up organically in the "leader" position - with other women either deferring to me, or trying to challenge me. I don't generally WANT to be in that position, but unless I make a point of shutting my mouth and playing dumb, it's usually where I end up. I don't have an aggressive or "dominant" personality, but my work speaks for itself and I'm inexplicably good at commanding attention (considering how much I dislike it).

 

Relatively strong woman plus relatively weak man = the woman holds the power in the relationship. Right?

 

Wrong.

 

I didn't see or understand what was happening at the time, but he was a skilled emotional manipulator and I quickly "fell into his frame" - wherein my femininity was more or less DISALLOWED, and the only way to engage with him was, essentially, as the "de-facto beta male." He nearly always managed to have the upper-hand, emotionally and psychologically, because it was the constructed alpha/beta dynamic, and he wouldn't engage with me at the natural meeting point of masculine/feminine. It was HIS turf, HIS frame: HIS masculinity against MY masculinity - and that's definitely not where my strength lies. But I had to become more and more masculine in that relationship just to stand up for myself, because my feminine strengths were not honored.

 

It was all mind games. When I gained a little perspective and finally wised up to what was going on, I walked. Basically the final straw was when it had gone on long enough and I'd learned enough to see where that train was going: that it was ALWAYS going to be a competition with him, and that in order to get anything out of that relationship, I either had to call upon all of the darkest and naggiest tactics of feminine manipulation and drag him onto my turf and henpeck him, and live with the fact that I would never actually respect him... OR, I had to beat him at his own game and be more of a man than him - and, even moreso, live with the fact that I could never actually respect him.

 

Looking back on it, it's hard to believe that I fell into that sort of trap (pairing up with a guy who promised a partnership but really just wanted someone to keep under his thumb), because I'm usually pretty smart - but these sorts of things aren't really about smarts. I might be a literal genius, but I have the same innate/instinctive emotional/psychological triggers and weaknesses as pretty much any other woman. If I'm sizing a man up as a partner based on how the two of us interact in a vacuum, instead of sizing him up based on his position and esteem in my community, etc., that leaves me vulnerable to having those triggers manipulated.

 

And that's what the modern alpha/beta construct is about, when you start talking about "alpha/beta" behavior with regard to how men treat women (RE: dating, etc.): establishing positional dominance in a vacuum for personal gain. It goes without saying that the men who do this - men who employ various tactics to be seen as "the alpha" relative to/in the eyes of any given woman or group of women - are pretty much NEVER the "alpha" males when thrown into a pack of other males. This goes along with what Gretchen said: they basically bully women because they could never get away with trying to do that to another dude. Can't hold your own among the men and get what you want on your own merits (or just don't think you can)? Emotionally/physically/psychologically subjugate a woman!

 

I cringe when guys talk about "how to be more alpha towards women," because they should be worried about being more of a man than other men - not more of a man than their woman.

[basil67]

Most typically, the guy wants sex (resource), and the woman wants money/attention/validation (resource). What we see most often in modern relationships is a situation where both parties are trying to extract as much of what they want as they can get from a prospective "partner" while giving as little as they can of what that "partner" is after. Minimize investment, maximize return.

 

I don't see this in modern relationships. What I mostly see is two people wanting warm and loving company, sex, fun, support, teamwork, a 'partner in crime'.

[major_merrick]

As others have said, alpha/beta can depend on the context. I suspect that a lot of men who try to adhere to the alpha concept end up coming of as ill-tempered or abusive. They try to force it when it doesn't come naturally to them. I don't think that alpha/beta ideas should really be used to change who you are, since in this world "there's a chair for every butt." Meek men can still find a faithful partner to suit them. You want to find a job, partner, and life that fits who you are.

 

I'd say that my husband tends to fit a lot of the characteristics of an alpha male. He's successful at work, makes good money, and is a leader. He's a leader and teacher in our community, and he's the head of our household. He likes cars, guns, action films, construction work, and other "manly" things. He's got female partners who love him and has fathered a large number of children.

 

On the "not so alpha" side, my husband is much more emotional than you'd expect. He dotes on his kids, and is up at night with the babies. He carries his favorite cat around more than any guy I've ever seen. He's very affectionate with me and his other partners. He reads, and he writes poetry. He doesn't really care for non-essential exercise. He works a lot, but doesn't "work out." No rippling muscles there, even though he's sturdy and can get the job done.

 

So, do my husband's not-so-alpha traits take away from his alpha traits? I don't think so. You see, what you want is balance. Women want a well-rounded partner who can fight and love, work and relax, conquer and communicate. If you focus on being hyper-masculine you risk becoming oafish and annoying.

[GorillaTheater]

and has fathered a large number of children.

 

Is that an Alpha trait? Because I think it's an Alpha trait.

[basil67]

On the "not so alpha" side, my husband is much more emotional than you'd expect. He dotes on his kids, and is up at night with the babies. He carries his favorite cat around more than any guy I've ever seen. He's very affectionate with me and his other partners. He reads, and he writes poetry. He doesn't really care for non-essential exercise. He works a lot, but doesn't "work out." No rippling muscles there, even though he's sturdy and can get the job done.

 

I think all of this fits in the description of a man who's a strong leader. The best leaders of all use love, compassion, emotions and feelings as appropriate in the different roles he has in life. He certainly doesn't waste time trying to hide a love of poetry because he's comfortable with who he is. Rippling muscles only speak of vanity. Being sturdy and getting a job done is far more masculine in my eyes.

 

To peg a emotions and feelings as "not alpha" does a great disservice to the good men and leaders who use these traits to enhance the good man he already is.

[ajequals]

the terms alpha and beta don't apply to men IMHO. a good man should be a combination of personalities ,strong when he needs to be but knows when to keep his opinion to himself..which for most men is hard to do.I was shown were suppose to be the protector but sensitive and observant to our ladies needs...I've heard of personality types and feel they apply With what you wrote I feel your not into confrontation ,which I feel men need to deal with from time to time ...if a girl I'm interested in is mad. I want to know why..I don't feel that's playing into any games

[basil67]

Yes, a man may deal with confrontations from time to time, but even better is a man (or woman) who can have a discussion in a manner which includes open dialogue and listening to each other rather than confrontation. And I much prefer your use of "good man" over Alpha or Beta nonsense.

[major_merrick]

Is that an Alpha trait? Because I think it's an Alpha trait.

Definitely. Procreation is "alpha" for both men and women. I know Wife #1 is the alpha female of our family. She's just started pregnancy number seven!

I think all of this fits in the description of a man who's a strong leader. The best leaders of all use love, compassion, emotions and feelings as appropriate in the different roles he has in life. He certainly doesn't waste time trying to hide a love of poetry because he's comfortable with who he is. Rippling muscles only speak of vanity. Being sturdy and getting a job done is far more masculine in my eyes.

 

To peg a emotions and feelings as "not alpha" does a great disservice to the good men and leaders who use these traits to enhance the good man he already is.

I use the term "alpha" in the way the manosphere online has been using it. But I agree that the more emotional traits are helpful, and a man who is secure in his identity (including idiosyncratic hobbies) is definitely alpha.