Attempting to make a decision

[preraph]

No, I don't recommend withholding sex, for your own practical purposes! Talking about becoming domestic with him, doing housework, living together, taking care of him.

 

After reading his history, just not sure he's husband material. As you said, it was a lot of his own doing. I don't think it's worth it if you have to drag someone into marriage because once you do that and they give in, then they kind of have the advantage of being able to throw that up in your face, like "This is how I am and you insisted you wanted me, so now this is it, this is how I am."

 

So I'm saying, based on your last statement, you should stop even talking about marriage and maybe start dating other people.

[Kitty Tantrum]

I've been divorced, and the only thing that really makes it a headache is if there are minor children (custody/child support) or substantial assets to divide. People who say they are afraid of divorce are most often actually afraid of commitment. Divorce is just paperwork and a few hundred bucks in fees.

 

My fiancé and I had been together for less than a year, and most of that "casually" when we started talking about a potential future together. He'd never married before and held out for his entire life up to that point (45ish) that he didn't want to get married ever. When he made it clear that he wanted us to be together, the first thing I told him was that marriage was important and necessary to me. I didn't set a deadline, but made it pretty clear that if he wouldn't marry me I'd have to find someone who would. If I'm going to have a joint life with anyone, the first contract we're signing together is the marriage contract, period.

 

If he hadn't been willing and able to assure me that marriage was in the cards, I would have ripped that bandaid right off. I'd advise anyone to do the same if marriage is important to them and their partner is ambivalent about it after two years. That's more than enough time to assess and decide.

 

My first marriage was basically seven years of hell plus three more to actually get the dissolution process done and over with - but that has nothing to do with marriage as an institution, or divorce as a process. It has everything to do with the person I was with.

[elaine567]

He left the marriage after 10 years. He says his ex wife was extremely controlling and demanding and tried to keep his son away from him because she said she didn't trust him. She tried to take full custody during their divorce but lost. According to him, the times when he tried to talk to his ex, she would avoid those conversations and just walk away. It came to a head when he asked her if she would marry him again and she said no (which IMO why would you ask such a question when your marriage is already bad?) but he STILL tried, but things went downhill quickly. He then asked for a divorce.

 

So he married at 36, what was he up to before then?

Was his wife controlling and demanding or did he just not like being "trapped"?

[SumGuy]

I told him that I wouldn't live with him (or anyone for that matter) until marriage, for many reasons but mainly it's because of my children..... I don't want to be in a relationship that has no future.

 

Why would it matter if you were married for your children? If you are planning on having children together I would agree marriage is recommended, highly.

 

There are many more long term close relationship futures that don't require marriage.

 

Like others have said, if he had a really bad divorce why get married?

 

I can see having kids, I can see religious reasons, but otherwise marriage all about financial benefits (social security, health insurance) and and obligations (resources flowing from the person with more to the person with less upon divorce...assuming the divorce laws are applied in a gender neutral fashion).

 

Also what Gaeta said in #25...i think 2 years can be too soon for marriage but a good point to move in together and see if the relationship still holds up. Walk before running I say.

Edited October 30, 2019 by SumGuy

[boymommy]

So the other option is to break up with him because from what I understand that is really the only way for a commitment-phobic person to change their mind about committing. As long as I am staying in the relationship he may not have any reason to commit to me. However this seems manipulative and could very easily backfire and I could lose him forever. But that could happen anyway in a year if nothing changes!

 

From what he told me when his ex wife gave him the ultimatum (which obviously I would not give him an ultimatum, I would just leave) he said that he told her "okay see ya" and they broke up for a few weeks. It took him some time to think about it and then he came back and agreed to get married. Bought a ring, proposed. While I would love to think he will get there on his own, given his relationship history I kind of have my doubts on that.

[Gaeta]

My first marriage was basically seven years of hell plus three more to actually get the dissolution process done and over with - but that has nothing to do with marriage as an institution, or divorce as a process. It has everything to do with the person I was with.

 

That is why 2 years of dating is not enough to know who you are marrying.

 

I dated my ex-husband for 3 years, we did not live together before marriage. I marrying thinking I knew him, I didn't. Followed 15 years very difficult years with abuse starting 10 months after our wedding.

 

You will never get to know someone by dating them. You need to live with them before marriage.

 

 

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[elaine567]

Why would it matter if you were married for your children?

 

Marriage is usually serious and long term.

Living together can be half hearted and temporary.

The OP does not want to set up home and involve her children without the security of marriage behind her.

Too many women end up in big messes by accepting living together, to find marriage is not and never was on the cards.

The OP knows what she wants and if this man will not step up, he is history...

[vla1120]

In your other thread, when you first met, both of you were open to the idea of remarriage. Then, once you started to become serious, that is when he started backtracking about marriage.

 

I think you either need to be comfortable with the status quo until his son graduates and he can move (therefore having no excuse NOT to move), or you can move forward and try to find someone who is open to marriage. When his son graduates, however, I think you're going to find that he does not want to move away from his rural area.

 

I hate to think you are wasting your time, since the two of you get along so well, but since you want more than he might be willing to give, I am afraid you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Gaeta]

boymommy: Are you and him earning similar salaries?

[boymommy]

So he married at 36, what was he up to before then?

Was his wife controlling and demanding or did he just not like being "trapped"?

 

 

Actually he did not marry at 36. He would have been 32 when he got married. He was separated in 2013 but divorce was not final until 2017. She dragged it out in court due to custody battle, and all sorts of crazy crap apparently. Cost him $40,000 in court fees. He was separated for 4 years before we met, and divorced finalized for 6 months. I am his first serious relationship since his separation/divorce.

 

He was in a few long term relationships prior to that (one with his daughter's mother for 4 years) but apparently marriage was never a consideration with anyone until he met his ex wife who forced it on him.

 

Obviously I wasn't there and am only hearing his side. I have met the ex wife though and she does come off as very cold and impersonal and she was rather rude to me. It could be a combo that he felt trapped and she was in fact demanding and controlling. Who knows.

[Gaeta]

. Cost him $40,000 in court fees.

Can you really blame him for not wanting to remarry right away! Geeez, his marriage was final in 2017, he just got robbed of 40k 2 years ago.

[boymommy]

That is why 2 years of dating is not enough to know who you are marrying.

 

I dated my ex-husband for 3 years, we did not live together before marriage. I marrying thinking I knew him, I didn't. Followed 15 years very difficult years with abuse starting 10 months after our wedding.

 

You will never get to know someone by dating them. You need to live with them before marriage.

 

 

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There aren't any guarantees in marriage. Living together, not living together, it makes no difference at the end of the day. I had a similar situation with my ex husband except we lived together for 2 years before marriage. We had a very bad marriage and divorced after 11 years. It's about compatibility. Living together before marriage doesn't protect against everything. The things that happened during our marriage didn't have much to do with things that happened when we cohabited. They weren't things that I could have ever predicted would have happened. I know some people advocate for testing your relationship and thats fine, but it's not a full proof thing. I am going to protect my children from that for sure.

[boymommy]

Can you really blame him for not wanting to remarry right away! Geeez, his marriage was final in 2017, he just got robbed of 40k 2 years ago.

 

No not at all. I never said I wanted to get married right now...nor is that even what this thread is about. I just asked him to tell me what he wants. But he doesn't know so we'll just have to work with that fact.

[elaine567]

When his son graduates, however, I think you're going to find that he does not want to move away from his rural area.

I would guess that too.

Country dwellers tend to love living where they live, moving to the town or a big city would be considered "Hell" to them.

[Gaeta]

Would you explain how this marriage would protect your children from a previous marriage?

 

 

 

Marriage with this bf will not bring them anymore stability. As you said we cannot predict the relationship, you could marry in 2020 and divorce in 2021.

[boymommy]

Would you explain how this marriage would protect your children from a previous marriage?

 

 

 

Marriage with this bf will not bring them anymore stability. As you said we cannot predict the relationship, you could marry in 2020 and divorce in 2021.

 

Yes I know. But marriage does tend to be more stable then cohabitation. Even though marriage does not mean "forever" it implies that this is the case. Cohabitation on the other hand can mean forever, or it can mean, we'll just see what happens, or it can mean "let's do this as long as it works and call it quits. So yes, while divorce is possible, people go into marriage with the mindset that it will be forever and this implies greater stability. Whether it actually lasts forever or not is a totally different ballgame, it's the mindset going into that I want. I want it for myself and for my children.

 

My children have had enough transition (as his son has as well) so it's better for them if we imply that we are going to be together forever from the getgo and make our best efforts to make that the case, rather then go into with the mindset that we aren't sure if it's going to last forever or we are testing to see if it's going to last forever. I dont want that!

[SumGuy]

Marriage is usually serious and long term.

I think divorce statistics show the opposite

 

Living together can be half hearted and temporary.

So can marriage, I'd say especially a marriage where you have never lived together day in and day out.

 

The OP does not want to set up home and involve her children without the security of marriage behind her.

not sure how a piece of paper is going to provide her with more security, unless he has more assets than her and so there is a barrier to his leaving.

 

Too many women end up in big messes by accepting living together, to find marriage is not and never was on the cards.

Not sure what you men by a "big mess" unless you mean when it ends she does not get money from him. Where I live child support is an obligation you have to pay married or not. I guess if she gave him money for an asset and it is just him name on it then yes it can be a problem.

 

The OP knows what she wants and if this man will not step up, he is history...

That I can accept, as to each their own, I'd just wonder if one is placing form over function...unless the function is all those financial benefits of marriage.

 

I could very well be wrong in all this because as the OP has kids it will likely mean any child support or alimony she receives could be substantially reduced or eliminated if she marries, and she could well lose claim to any social security benefits of an ex or deceased former husband, life insurance proceeds etc.

 

I'm suggesting think twice before you blow up a relationship over this, I'd have clear in my head exactly what will objectively change in a marriage versus no marriage. What are you really looking for with marriage.

 

Commitment, seriousness, those are his subjective emotional states...marriage won't change those.

 

One could also say if she doesn't ease up, she is history...

[boymommy]

I would guess that too.

Country dwellers tend to love living where they live, moving to the town or a big city would be considered "Hell" to them.

 

We worked out a compromise to that. If we got married, I would move to him and he would move to a house that is in a more pedestrian friendly location but still be able to share custody with his ex wife since it's written into his divorce decree like that. My ex husband is willing to compromise on this as well (surprisingly) since we both currently rent and he said he would move closer to us if I end up moving. I would still be able to get my shuttle service for people with disabilities in the town my boyfriend lives in plus walk where I need to go. The only difference is that given his town is more rural things are a bit further away. However given I would live with a licensed driver vs living alone, this would not be as big of an issue given I could split my resources between him driving and the shuttle service.

[Kitty Tantrum]

That is why 2 years of dating is not enough to know who you are marrying.

 

I dated my ex-husband for 3 years, we did not live together before marriage. I marrying thinking I knew him, I didn't. Followed 15 years very difficult years with abuse starting 10 months after our wedding.

 

You will never get to know someone by dating them. You need to live with them before marriage.

 

Disagree. I knew my first husband for 7+ years before we married, I practically DID live at his family's house, and we were married for 4 years before the truth of things really started coming out. Finding the truth is not a function of living together for a certain amount of time, it's about knowing what to look for and which questions to ask. Just because you and I learned these lessons through trial and error does not mean that the "test drive" by way of playing house prior to commitment is the only way to suss these things out. Used to be that a young person's family/community helped them with those decisions and taught them how to choose wisely. The "necessity" of the test drive is a product of broken society and deficient culture, not a universal standard.

 

I had the benefit of being housemates with my fiancé briefly before we dated, but that's a whole lot different from cohabitation. Critical information was mostly gleaned from deliberate (and sometimes awkward) conversation. I was only willing to live WITH HIM in a relationship because we had already decided we were definitely getting married (and he's still not on my lease until after the wedding next month, because joint contracts and obligations outside of marriage are not my cup of tea). I'd never live with someone with the intention of "finding out" if I was sure I wanted to marry him. That's just asking for a whole lot of entanglement I don't know I'm actually ready for.

 

Functionally speaking, for me, moving in together WAS the real wedding -the government-issued certificate is just the formalization that I was willing to put off until we had the time/energy/resources to put together a little celebration to share with family and friends. If that hadn't already been agreed upon, it would have been no dice.

[boymommy]

I think divorce statistics show the opposite

 

So can marriage, I'd say especially a marriage where you have never lived together day in and day out.

 

 

not sure how a piece of paper is going to provide her with more security, unless he has more assets than her and so there is a barrier to his leaving.

 

Not sure what you men by a "big mess" unless you mean when it ends she does not get money from him. Where I live child support is an obligation you have to pay married or not. I guess if she gave him money for an asset and it is just him name on it then yes it can be a problem.

 

 

That I can accept, as to each their own, I'd just wonder if one is placing form over function...unless the function is all those financial benefits of marriage.

 

I could very well be wrong in all this because as the OP has kids it will likely mean any child support or alimony she receives could be substantially reduced or eliminated if she marries, and she could well lose claim to any social security benefits of an ex or deceased former husband, life insurance proceeds etc.

 

I'm suggesting think twice before you blow up a relationship over this, I'd have clear in my head exactly what will objectively change in a marriage versus no marriage. What are you really looking for with marriage.

 

Commitment, seriousness, those are his subjective emotional states...marriage won't change those.

 

One could also say if she doesn't ease up, she is history...

 

I think this is why divorce statistics are so high. With such negative opinions on marriage it's a wonder why so many marriages fail.

 

That being said, you raise some valid points. I am just a traditional person and I am looking for a lifelong commitment from someone. Can you get that without marriage? Sure. But do I want that? No. In all honestly, our relationship probably will change will marriage which is what he is afraid of. He just wants to keep things simple like they are now. But I'm not afraid of the challenge. I want a life partner, a person who will be there day in, day out to support me and be by side. To me that means marriage. But I understand that is not everyone.

[Gaeta]

Honestly I think it would be better for your children that you continue dating and put their needs in front of yours. Marrying a new man with your finger crossed hoping it will work, uprooting your small kids to move to a different city, changing their school, losing their friends, seems like a, sorry to say, but seems like a selfish plan. Their happiness should come first.

 

I do not know many couples that are married. Most in my society move in together, buy properties together, have children together without a marriage. Their commitment toward each other is found in day to day life and they are protected by notary papers and a good Will. NObody moves in together with the intention 'will see'. NO ONE.

 

My boyfriend is talking about us buying a house. I like dreaming about it with him but it's not going to happen now. I have a 15 year old at home I will not change school so that means another 2,5 years before we get into shopping for a house. It doesn't mean I am not committed to my bf, it means my foster-daughter comes first as any children should come first.

 

 

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[boymommy]

Honestly I think it would be better for your children that you continue dating and put their needs in front of yours. Marrying a new man with your finger crossed hoping it will work, uprooting your small kids to move to a different city, changing their school, losing their friends, seems like a, sorry to say, but seems like a selfish plan. Their happiness should come first.

 

I do not know many couples that are married. Most in my society move in together, buy properties together, have children together without a marriage. Their commitment toward each other is found in day to day life and they are protected by notary papers and a good Will. NObody moves in together with the intention 'will see'. NO ONE.

 

My boyfriend is talking about us buying a house. I like dreaming about it with him but it's not going to happen now. I have a 15 year old at home I will not change school so that means another 2,5 years before we get into shopping for a house. It doesn't mean I am not committed to my bf, it means my foster-daughter comes first as any children should come first.

 

 

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Actually I think it would improve their quality of life a great deal and give them things that I cannot provide them. But I won't be willing to take that risk unless I am certain it is the right thing to do and I am 100% sure it's the right thing for all of us. We aren't quite there yet. You are against marriage so obviously moving for remarriage isn't going to be looked at fondly but thats totally okay. Can't please everyone. I will always put my kids first, which may mean waiting 5 years for my boyfriend to move here and we buy a house in a rural area of my town if that is the compromise that works the best. We'll see.

[Gaeta]

I am not against marriage. I would not break up with a man because he lost a great deal during a divorce and he doesn't want to remarry. To me marriage is not a love statement, and to me the quality of love we have together is more important than the social status of being married.

 

You have not answered but you said your children would be better, is it because you earn much less than him? And if so, can you understand he is afraid of being burnt financially a second time?

 

 

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[boymommy]

 

You have not answered but you said your children would be better, is it because you earn much less than him? And if so, can you understand he is afraid of being burnt financially a second time?

 

 

.

 

His income is higher, but I am financially savy and have significant savings. I don't need his money.

 

My children would benefit because of his ability to drive them to school sports and other activities, which I cannot do. So basically his ability to drive will allow them to participate in things that counteract my limitations if that makes sense.

[SumGuy]

Yes I know. But marriage does tend to be more stable then cohabitation. Even though marriage does not mean "forever" it implies that this is the case. Cohabitation on the other hand can mean forever, or it can mean, we'll just see what happens, or it can mean "let's do this as long as it works and call it quits. So yes, while divorce is possible, people go into marriage with the mindset that it will be forever and this implies greater stability.

It's a false implication. it is really how you take not how most take it. If you view cohabitation as making it work for forever that is what it will be.

 

Whether it actually lasts forever or not is a totally different ballgame, it's the mindset going into that I want. I want it for myself and for my children.

That right there is where it is all in your head. You can go into living together with the same mindset that we are taking this slow because we want it to last forever.

 

My children have had enough transition (as his son has as well) so it's better for them if we imply that we are going to be together forever from the getgo and make our best efforts to make that the case, rather then go into with the mindset that we aren't sure if it's going to last forever or we are testing to see if it's going to last forever. I dont want that!

Again all of that, implying going into this forever, that whole mindset can be had if you decide to live together first.

 

Not to say you can't want what you want. The heart wants what it wants.

 

 

All I can say is bringing together two families to live together under marriage, with never having tested how you are living together is like jumping into muddy water head first instead of feet first.

 

If the water is deep no worries, but if it was deep living together first (jumping in feet first) would have worked as well.

 

If the water was shallow, you hit your head, imagine how much worse it will be for the kids after getting their hopes up if you get married and it doesn't work. Whereas if jump in feet first you "just" break a leg.

 

I don't believe the "marriage mindset" is going to protect the kids or make it easier, it is your mindset that will. Marriage does not avoid the reality that sometimes it doesn't work out. There are ways to do this and talk to them about this that don't leave them insecure or getting their hopes up.

 

I'd also not recommend even moving in together first.

 

You may have already done this but slowly having the families together is my take. A low stress weekend vacation together first, then a weekend together in month 1, then 2 weekends next month, etc. then try some school/work days together until it is so frequent living together is a small step.

 

Slowly ease into it so any incompatibilities from day to day living and discipline differences between the families can be addressed. If you jump in they are ongoing and their is never a break and they can all crop up on top of each other.

 

Just my two cents to get to marriage because it sounds like marriage could make sense for your two young families.