Mail Order Brides & Human Human Trafficking

[Mr. Lucky]

And the guys I've seen with wives who are from the third world are mostly ones which western women wouldn't be interested in anyway.

 

And vice versa, these guys aren't interested in Western women.

 

I'd guess this 'industry' exists because it serves a need on both ends of the transaction...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Libby1]

Try speaking on behalf of an Eastern European woman, I guarantee you’ll be in for a shock as there is great disdain in some quarters there for how women in the west live and treat their men.

 

As far as Eastern European women go....negativity towards the West tends to be something you can find among the more elderly ones. Particularly those who still recall communism, found the change difficult and carry resentment about the switch to a more capitalist society. Being disparaging towards Western women is just another way of expressing dislike of the West generally. Younger women I know from Eastern Europe (and there are many Eastern European immigrants where I live) fit in pretty well here. I think they're still very focused on things like cooking and being somewhat nurturing, but so are most Western women I know - and, indeed, quite a few men. These are warm, positive traits that make a person good to be around, regardless of the gender of the person you find them in.

 

People who live in Eastern Europe, and who feel negatively towards the West, may well be reliant on stereotypical views about Western women that they've formed as a result of the kind of East v West stereotypes that elderly parents and disgruntled men on the internet tend to rely on. Or witnessing bad behaviour from disrespectful tourists or celebrities whose fame relies on being deliberately provocative and annoying. Their real life experience of ordinary people in the West is often going to be extremely limited.

 

As for the "mail order brides" thing, there's probably less stigma to that than there used to be since it's now so common for people to meet through internet dating. Obviously if a woman from a very poor country and in dire straits is being "rescued" by a benevolent Western man whose willingness to rescue is dependent on her not changing/embracing more Western values when she reaches the West, then that's often going to be a recipe for trouble. Unless the woman is confined in the man's home and prevented by him from making any friends, which would be unequivocally abusive, or she's extremely introverted, then the likelihood is that she's going to change in various ways as part of fitting in to her new surroundings and building a social circle/support network.

 

I do think that sometimes these men have quite negative (towards women) attitudes that are likely to be rejected by women in a more free society. Where that's the case, if they marry an extremely attractive woman from another country - well, presumably other men are also going to find that woman attractive, and she might well decide that one of those other men is a far better, nicer person than the guy who thought he could buy himself a bride who would be as faithful as a dog he picked up from a rescue centre.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Libby1

[some_username1]

I'm sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean the disdain is right, right?

 

Of course! But that’s the whole point of my post, neither does it mean that all the hand wringing in this thread and projections of abuse and whatever other nonsense on these people is right either, right?

 

Instead of pontificating on the internet why not go to these countries yourself and ask these women first hand their opinions on marriage and how men are treated there vs in the west? Get some first hand evidence that they see themselves as victims.

 

The sad thing is that even then they won’t be satisfied and will likely conclude “they can’t think think for themselves! How would they know what is good for them!”

 

There are a million and one ways to live life and all that matters is how the individual wants to live theirs. It really boils my urine when we in the west dare to think we know what is best for a people whose culture is alien to us. It’s so breathtakingly gauche that I can’t even....in fact the British built a (now reviled) empire based on such thinking. Totally myopic.

[elaine567]

The problem with defence of these practices is that the assumption is that the women have free choice that they live in a world where they can decide what is best for themselves.

Unfortunately many are under the influence and control of families, who decide for them.

They are manipulated through family "honour" and "respect", culture and tradition, to go earn bigger money by prostitution or by marrying Western guys...

A poor girl will feel she has no option but to comply.

 

In the UK recently 39 immigrants were found dead in a refrigerated lorry Some of these were apparently young people sent by their poor families in Vietnam, to go out to earn money in the West. Some were destined for nail bars, others prostitution or hard labour, they were scammed by organised crime, but whilst I decry the criminals, I also feel the "families" are to blame for this "trade".

Not content to have their children go to Tokyo for work, they sent them illegally to England to potentially make bigger bucks, endangering their lives in the process...

 

Similarly these young brides are being used to sustain families, they do it through a sense of duty, to make parents happy, to escape a poor life, and not because they actually WANT to marry some Western guy who usually "cannot get a gf"...

Edited October 31, 2019 by elaine567

[some_username1]

As far as Eastern European women go....negativity towards the West tends to be something you can find among the more elderly ones. Particularly those who still recall communism, found the change difficult and carry resentment about the switch to a more capitalist society. Being disparaging towards Western women is just another way of expressing dislike of the West generally. Younger women I know from Eastern Europe (and there are many Eastern European immigrants where I live) fit in pretty well here.

 

I take on board your experiences of women from Eastern Europe and I agree there is probably a lot of truth there but I refer specifically to a young-ish female youtuber from Ukraine who has spent a long time in Canada and is appalled at the way men are treated and the princess-y way that a lot of women carry on, she thinks there is no humility and respect.

 

“But that.’s just one person!” You say. “Exactly!” Is my reply. One person is all I need to prove my point because the women in this thread are generalising that ALL people in cultures in Asia and Eastern Europe would drop the morals and attitudes espoused by their country and develop the morals and attitudes of western women if they had the choice and that is patently false.

 

People are people, there are millions of ways to live and it’s scary how women in the west seem to think that there is only ONE way and that is THEIR way and anything else is exploitation, slavery or some other such nonsense.

Edited October 31, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[pepperbird]

There was a problem ere with a loophole in the law. marriages were being arranged between men living here and poor women from India, etc. They would be brought here, and since they had little no money of their own, they were trapped. Some ended up in the sex trade, while others were stuck as little more than domestic servants.

Organized crime was using this as a way to bring women into the country for the sex trade.

I don;t know all the details anymore, but from what I understand, there was talk of closing some of the loopholes that were allowing this to happen.

[Libby1]

I take on board your experiences of women from Eastern Europe and I agree there is probably a lot of truth there but I refer specifically to a young-ish female youtuber from Ukraine who has spent a long time in Canada and is appalled at the way men are treated and the princess-y way that a lot of women carry on, she thinks there is no humility and respect.

 

“But that.’s just one person!” You say.

 

I wouldn't so much say "that's just one person" as I'd say that there are a lot of youtubers whose traffic count is high because they do vlogs on the kind of issues that provoke a lot of arguments. I don't know who the woman you're talking about is, but I'd imagine she has a lot of male subscribers, and I think youtubers also rely quite heavily on donations to make money. Often people from marginalised groups who adopt a very conservative approach will very quickly build a following and even attain something near celebrity status.

 

I'm not saying the people making money from these vlogs don't believe what they're saying, but the waters are muddied by the speed with which they can build large followings and even receive donations as a "thank you" for their rants. A young, pretty and articulate woman railing against feminism is pretty much bound to quickly build up an admiring following of men.

 

 

“Exactly!” Is my reply. One person is all I need to prove my point because the women in this thread are generalising that ALL people in cultures in Asia and Eastern Europe would drop the morals and attitudes espoused by their country and develop the morals and attitudes of western women if they had the choice and that is patently false.

 

I don't think people just drop their morals and values when they move to another country. But they're going to be exposed to values and opportunities they're not used to, and they're probably going to experience some intellectual curiosity about them.

 

People are people, there are millions of ways to live and it’s scary how women in the west seem to think that there is only ONE way and that is THEIR way and anything else is exploitation, slavery or some other such nonsense.

 

No, I agree that it's unfair to regard every situation where a man takes home a foreign bride as some sort of exploitation. However, those situations can involve a serious imbalance of power if the woman's ability to remain in her new home country is dependent upon the marriage lasting.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Libby1

[thefooloftheyear]

they do it through a sense of duty, to make parents happy, to escape a poor life, and not because they actually WANT to marry some Western guy who usually "cannot get a gf"...

 

But is it that much different from a diner waitress, single mom, that decides to chum up and date/marry a patron of the restaurant that she may not be all that attracted to, but sees it as a way out of her situation..?? Or in the other scenario I mentioned where a guy I know was taken advantage of by a woman who wasn't even heterosexual(didn't tell him that, though) so she can put herself through school and have a couple of kids??

 

Take it one step further...How many people cant stand going to work every day and may hate everything about their job, but yet go out every day and do it for that paycheck??...

 

You know the song line "every form of refuge has a price", right??

 

Look...I get it...

 

Everyone would hope to meet on common ground, everything by the storybook way....But that's not the real world...If anything, I believe this is actually more honorable than the other scenarios I mentioned...There its just outright fraud and bait and switch....With this arrangement I am sure most guys if they aren't absolutely ignorant, know the potential risks involved...They are aware of the cases where the woman realizes she maybe can do better than that guy and decides to bolt when they have the means to do so...Like just about any relationship that initiates by any means there are risks...

 

TFY

[Els]

It's not "human trafficking" because trafficking implies lack of consent. Same as how consensual prostitution isn't human trafficking.

 

That being said, it's still a very sad state of things. The problem, though, doesn't lie with mail order brides or prostitutes - they're just a symptom. The real problem is horrific economic inequality, especially on a global scale.

 

If anyone wants to help, they need to address the root of the problem. If you only try to make it harder to get mail order brides, the women will suffer even more, from poverty and their abusive families.

 

That being said, I don't think the bride is necessarily always disadvantaged. For the first few years yes, but once she gets her green card in the US (and the equivalent for other countries), if she is smart she will find out how to get a divorce and start her own life. It's probably a better outcome for her than marrying in her country, usually, as these poverty-stricken countries are typically incredibly misogynistic and dangerous places for women to live in.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Elswyth

[Els]

Same! Actually the Asian girlfriends/wives are very outspoken and wear the pants! Annie cracks me up.

 

 

 

 

Haha, yes, this is definitely a thing in many parts of Asia. In some East Asian countries the women typically control the finances, for instance. As in, the guy's paycheck goes to her account, or a joint account that she controls and gives him an "allowance" from. See https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-Chinese-spouses-force-their-husbands-to-cede-complete-financial-control-as-a-precondition-for-marriage for example.

 

 

 

But Asia is a big place, and even within the same country there can be huge differences depending on level of education, wealth, family status and other demographics. In many places (especially South Asia and some parts of Southeast Asia) women have abysmal rights, and violence against them is sadly very common. It can go both ways.

[some_username1]

It's not "human trafficking" because trafficking implies lack of consent. Same as how consensual prostitution isn't human trafficking.

 

That being said, it's still a very sad state of things. The problem, though, doesn't lie with mail order brides or prostitutes - they're just a symptom. The real problem is horrific economic inequality, especially on a global scale.

 

If anyone wants to help, they need to address the root of the problem. If you only try to make it harder to get mail order brides, the women will suffer even more, from poverty and their abusive families.

 

That being said, I don't think the bride is necessarily always disadvantaged. For the first few years yes, but once she gets her green card in the US (and the equivalent for other countries), if she is smart she will find out how to get a divorce and start her own life. It's probably a better outcome for her than marrying in her country, usually, as these poverty-stricken countries are typically incredibly misogynistic and dangerous places for women to live in.

 

For a second there I could have sworn you were espousing fraud to acquire a green card and earn some easy money in a divorce...

 

Sheesh, I’m starting to see why the MGTOW stuff has got such traction these days.

[Els]

 

No, I agree that it's unfair to regard every situation where a man takes home a foreign bride as some sort of exploitation. However, those situations can involve a serious imbalance of power if the woman's ability to remain in her new home country is dependent upon the marriage lasting.

 

 

I don't know how it works in the US. In the only two countries whose immigration law I'm very familiar with, the sponsored partner typically gets full residency within 1-2 years, and retains this privilege even if she gets a divorce (or separates from him in the case of de facto couples). Additionally, the sponsoring partner (the man, in the case of this thread's discussion) is legally required to support her financially for the next 5-7 years REGARDLESS of the outcome of their relationship/marriage.

[Els]

For a second there I could have sworn you were espousing fraud to acquire a green card and earn some easy money in a divorce...

 

Sheesh, I’m starting to see why the MGTOW stuff has got such traction these days.

 

 

Lol, no, it's not fraud if you choose to seek a mail order bride. It's part of the transaction.

 

If you don't want to be taken advantage of... just, well, don't get one?

 

 

(Btw, it works exactly the same way with the genders reversed, in legal terms. A woman could just as easily be the victim of "fraud" if she was dumb enough to sign up for a mail order bridegroom scheme. Unfortunately, I personally know one who was.)

Edited October 31, 2019 by Elswyth

[LivingWaterPlease]

 

One person is all I need to prove my point because the women in this thread are generalising that ALL people in cultures in Asia and Eastern Europe would drop the morals and attitudes espoused by their country and develop the morals and attitudes of western women if they had the choice and that is patently false.

 

Huh? I posted on this thread, just sharing two examples of international marriage I'm familiar with. Am not generalizing anything or really, not even stating an opinion about the issue because I haven't thought about it enough to have one!

[mark clemson]

... if she is smart she will find out how to get a divorce and start her own life.

 

 

This is assuming she actually ends up unhappy in the marriage. No doubt some are, but presumably some end up content. (Perhaps that's specifically what you meant, though.)

[some_username1]

Lol, no, it's not fraud if you choose to seek a mail order bride. It's part of the transaction.

 

If you don't want to be taken advantage of... just, well, don't get one?

 

 

(Btw, it works exactly the same way with the genders reversed, in legal terms. A woman could just as easily be the victim of "fraud" if she was dumb enough to sign up for a mail order bridegroom scheme. Unfortunately, I personally know one who was.)

 

It’s taking advantage of someone who enters into a personal relationship thinking a situation is one thing when actually it’s something else all along. People have been prosecuted for far less and labelled “a grifter” or “confidence man” etc.

 

It does sound like you are advocating for such a character “if she’s smart” etc. In literal terms yeah don’t do it if you don’t want to get burned but I’m sure there are some genuine guys out there who think they are giving access to a better way of life in return for a traditional wife, what is wrong with that if both parties enter into it willingly and treat each other with respect? If the guy gets burned then that says everything about her and rather undermines the whole argument in this thread really: that women from the third world are all helpless damsels in distress rather than so-called “smart” business women who have eyes on the green card first then the divorce second.

 

I’d like to think that Both parties enter into these relationships because they are who they say they are and thankfully there seem to be a good few examples where the transaction worked, nobody got hurt and the couples are still together today which is a damn sight better than I can say for my friends non-transactional marriages...:rollseyes:

[Els]

This is assuming she actually ends up unhappy in the marriage. No doubt some are, but presumably some end up content. (Perhaps that's specifically what you meant, though.)

 

 

There's a big difference between the "mail order brides" industry and couples that just happen to have a Caucasian husband and an Asian/Eastern European/Latin American wife... the former is essentially long-term prostitution. So yes, in most cases they are not particularly chuffed about the man.

[Els]

It’s taking advantage of someone who enters into a personal relationship thinking a situation is one thing when actually it’s something else all along.

 

What exactly did you think the "mail order" situation is? Hint: Only objects can typically be mailed. Another hint: If you get to pick any woman you want for the price, what do you think that means regarding her freedom of choice?

 

My opinion is this: If you think it's okay to treat a fellow human being like an object for your own gratification, you absolutely deserve to have the tables turned on you as soon as they are able to. If I could, I'd give free advice to all mail-order brides/bridegrooms in this aspect, and I'd be doing a good deed.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Elswyth

[some_username1]

There's a big difference between the "mail order brides" industry and couples that just happen to have a Caucasian husband and an Asian/Eastern European/Latin American wife... the former is essentially long-term prostitution. So yes, in most cases they are not particularly chuffed about the man.

 

Out of interest is there any empirical proof for this? Have there been studies on long term happiness in marriages where a man specifically sought out an Asian wife for a traditional marriage?

[some_username1]

What exactly did you think the "mail order" situation is? Hint: Only objects can typically be mailed. Another hint: If you get to pick any woman you want for the price, what do you think that means regarding her freedom of choice?

 

My opinion is this: If you think it's okay to treat a fellow human being like an object for your own gratification, you absolutely deserve to have the tables turned on you as soon as they are able to. If I could, I'd give free advice to all mail-order brides/bridegrooms in this aspect, and I'd be doing a good deed.

 

I wasn’t taking taking ‘mail order’ literally actually. I was more talking about the paradigm where the guy goes to the woman’s country and meets her via a dating service or other method so there is actually some rapport built up before hand. If we’re literally talking about parachuting someone in that to me is a totally different situation.

 

But even so, I have to ask, you seem to generalise a lot as if you are quite knowledgeable that these are all bad situations, do you have any hard evidence that backs up that these relationships are as grim as you claim or is it guess work that they can’t possibly work?

[Els]

Out of interest is there any empirical proof for this? Have there been studies on long term happiness in marriages where a man specifically sought out an Asian wife for a traditional marriage?

 

 

Marriages between Western men and Asian women are not "traditional" in ANY sense of the word! Interracial marriages are a modern thing and are frowned upon by almost all traditional Asians. I grew up in Asia, btw, and I've seen traditional parents disown their children for marrying Westerners. And NO traditional Asian would EVER join a mail order scheme or have their children do so.

 

 

I think you need to actually familiarize yourself with what some terms actually mean, starting with "mail order".

[Els]

I wasn’t taking taking ‘mail order’ literally actually.

 

 

Well why are you posting on the "mail order brides" thread then....?

[some_username1]

Well why are you posting on the "mail order brides" thread then....?

 

Because it seems to be the sister thread to the one in the dating forum where OT debate got heavily moderated (and IIRC this one was moderated for referring to that thread as an example of this thread’s subject). Perhaps we’ll have to ask OP to clarify the use of “mail order” because it seems reasonable to me to deduce that, given the refs to the other thread and the fact that was NOT mail order related, that “mail order“ was used simply as a catch-all for “any relationship between a western man and Asian/Eastern European woman where they did not meet organically”.

 

In fact, from the OP: “when a man goes and brings a woman back from that”

 

So that suggest not mail order but a man using either a dating service or Tinder and going to meet her first and establish a relationship. Totally not mail order at all.

Edited October 31, 2019 by some_username1

[SumGuy]

Marriages between Western men and Asian women are not "traditional" in ANY sense of the word! Interracial marriages are a modern thing and are frowned upon by almost all traditional Asians. I grew up in Asia, btw, and I've seen traditional parents disown their children for marrying Westerners. And NO traditional Asian would EVER join a mail order scheme or have their children do so.

...

Seen it in the US as well. One example: my daughter has a friend first generation asian american, she can't even date a non-asian guy. I mean she can, just has to hide it. They are traditional and also very polite. Polite does not mean acceptance though when it comes to dating a daughter.

[Els]

Because it seems to be the sister thread to the one in the dating forum where OT debate got heavily moderated

 

 

Hmm, I don't see a reference to that, but fair enough, perhaps it was removed.

 

If you are using something like Tinder, it's not "mail order"... but, well, if you are looking for a "traditional Asian" from it, you probably will not get that. Because, again, traditional Asians don't do online dating. But if both people are into each other for whatever reason, by all means go for it.

 

Personally, I would be extremely wary of a person who "treated me like a celebrity" by virtue of my race. If I got into a relationship with a guy who idolizes Asian women and he turns out to be one of those who's looking for an unpaid housekeeper... well, can't say I didn't ask for it.